KnifeMissile

I've been searching the market for a car and I have encountered a surprising number of people who actively dislike ABS. I personally find it extremely useful, especially in bad weather, and consider it an essential component of a car, thus narrowing the number of potential vehicles I can buy used.

So, what's with this attitude? What's wrong with ABS?

blade02

It all stems from the root of most traffic problems. And that is the attitude "I am a better driver than most people." Personally I don't have anything against abs, I just dont see it as a nescessity. For things such as traction control, stability control etc. I wouldn't mind having them on something slow and boring that I used as a daily driver. But for anything car that I use as a toy, the less computer controlled stuff the better.

cyrnel

Knife, some systems are better than others. Some do a great job even compared to an excellent driver at full attention. Other systems might do a better job than a good driver who's distracted. Some do a completely horrible job, either all the time or on some surfaces in certain conditions. If you've experienced weird ABS behavior - erratic, or like the brakes are out while you push your feet through the floorboards - it can be hard to trust it again. I completely disabled ABS on my Jeep after too many close calls when a lumpy road unsettled it. Doesn't mean I don't love the new generations used in better vehicles.

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There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

BigGov

Deep down it really comes down to personal opinion.

I prefer not having ABS because I like having the ability to control how my car slows down, instead of pressing down on the pedal a certain amount and let the computer figure it out for me.

I've had close calls with both ABS and without ABS. Everytime I had a close call without ABS I was in control, and I was the reason that there was not an accident. Everytime I've had a close call with ABS it's been a hold-on-tight-and-pray-the-computer-works-right situation.

Driving a car that does not have ABS I feel makes me a better driver because I'm more in tune with how the car is reacting.

Is there anything wrong with a properly functioning ABS system? No, it's amazing technology. But that doesn't mean that I like it.

If you think you're be a better driver with ABS, then absolutely get a vehicle with ABS. Because when it really matters, it's the driver that still needs to hit the brake pedal in an emergency, ABS or no ABS.

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One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Scorps

It never works in any car I have with it

Daniel_

I used to be indifferent, until the first time I hit the brakes on an icy day adn was able to control my vehicle to avoid a skid/crash at a junction.

I was taught "cadence braking" to control slide, and it works - but ABS starts to work faster, and works more effectively.

For all the people that say that they think it takes them away from the feel of "real" driving, I would wonder what your feelings are on (for example) electric starters, signal lamps, synchromesh gears, automatic transmissions, servo brakes, etc etc - all of which have been blamed at various times for making driving a less real experience.

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VitaminH

I'm admittedly probably to reliant on my car's ABS. It's saved my butt several times when I might have had a fender bender otherwise. Although I drove a car without for sometime before I got this one and just pumped the brakes. I feel the ABS works better for me even still however.

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laconic1

I guess my main bias against ABS has been the cost of it. My current car doesn't have it, and there have only been maybe two times in the ten years I have owned it where it would have been useful. Meanwhile at least on GM vehicles ABS parts go out a lot, and they usually cost hundreds of dollars just for the part when they do. The cost/benefit ratio just isn't there for me personally, although I do think it is a good technology.

ziadel

it's simple. it takes control of the car away from the driver, thats all the reason I need not to like it.

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Martian

When I personally drive a car, I prefer not to have ABS for the simple reason that on the road it's not really all that useful. The car companies have done an excellent job of convincing the public in general that lock-ups are universally bad, yet it remains the fastest way to stop a moving vehicle - if you lock the wheels, you will stop in a shorter distance. The issue is that when you lock the wheels you lose control; as long as that pedal is on the firewall you're going in a straight line and that's all there is to it. People then get into trouble from not knowing what the proper braking maneuver is for a given situation. They're unable to differentiate between a situation where they have to stop right now and a situation where they'd do better to keep the wheels spinning to allow avoidance. That or they lock the wheels unintentionally.

You ask a Formula One driver to take his land rocket around the track without ABS, he'll call you psychotic. There are dozens of NASCAR accidents every season that could be prevented through the use of ABS. On the road, it's really not as necessary.

Having said that, there are situations where it is beneficial. The majority of drivers have neither the time nor the inclination to learn proper braking techniques and prefer to have the computer do the braking for them. While an argument could be made that these people have no business being on the road, ABS is still saving lives in the meantime. As far as I'm concerned it's great, just not for me.

ABS isn't the same as synchro meshes or electric starters because these things don't really affect the overall performance of the car. If my car doesn't have synchros there's no benefit or added control afforded me - it just means I get annoyed at having to double clutch. Brake servos are the same way. Removing the booster doesn't allow me any benefit; it makes my job easier without taking away any control.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

stingc

This is not true at all. Locking up the wheels lengthens the stopping distance considerably (~20-50%). It also destroys your tires at high speed. Disregarding directional control issues, there is an optimal brake pressure in all conditions, and almost nobody has the skill to apply it in an emergency, or on wet and icy roads (where you have no tire squeeling to help you out).

ABS automatically figures everything out for you. It does bias things so that you retain some directional control at the expense of stopping distance, but it does both better than almost any driver when they're not expecting something (although you'd probably have quite a bit of trouble getting them to admit this even to themselves...).

There are a number of other issues as well which a good 4-wheel ABS system will take care of that no driver could. In the real world, it's often true that available traction will be considerably different on each tire. ABS can individually control each of those calipers. The driver only has one brake pedal, so there's no way that he could do this.

Even on a perfectly uniform surface, you still have to worry about the different brake pressures on the front and rear axles. The optimal split depends quite a bit on the amount of traction availalbe, among other things. For the best braking, it therefore should not be set once and for all from the factory. Cars without ABS had to make do with a front-rear brake bias designed so that the rear wheels would never lock up before the fronts (for safety). (Good) ABS systems effectively remove this compromise.

While there are bad systems out there, the good ones are very useful. And for those saying that it's too expensive because it's rarely useful, realize that it more than pays for itself even if you only need it once.

Scorps

Thats why my astro vans isn't working

Martian

I'll qualify it, sorry. I should've earlier, but I was distracted. In the optimal conditions and at the limits of vehicle performance, ABS will improve braking times. These are the figures most often cited, because they're the ones that show ABS in the most beneficial light; on dry pavement an ABS vehicle may stop as much as 20 ft earlier than one with locked tires. In any other situation (snow, ice, gravel) a locked wheel will stop shorter. It's true that this causes a great deal of damage to the tires, but I would propose that the well-being of the tires is secondary to the well-being of the vehicle and the passengers inside. The downside to the locked wheels is a loss of directional control. You will slide in a straight line (as long as the wheels stay locked) and the car may even rotate on it's axis, which gives a sense of veering even though you continue to move straight.

ABS essentially serves as a substitute for driver ability - the computer will determine how to brake so that you don't have to. As I said, for people without the time or inclination to learn proper braking techniques this is beneficial. For the few who actually do learn how to brake properly it can be a hindrance.

I will concede that a computer is in some cases more efficient than a person. This is especially true in a brake and avoid situation; even a well-trained driver cannot find the braking threshold as quickly and efficiently as a computer. If I need to maintain control of my car while braking, it's easier to just mash the pedal and let the computer take care of the details than it is to feather and look for that point of lock-up myself; the computer can also get consistently closer to it than I can without actually locking the wheels.

I'm not opposed to ABS in most situations; the driving practices some people learn leave me absolutely appalled. I learned a lot of what I know from a professional driver who races in local circuits. He in turn learned his skills from the schools that are mandatory for someone who wants to race stock. I recognize that very few people have the benefit of a teacher that skilled or experienced and for them, tools to assist them in the day to day operation of the vehicle are beneficial bordering on essential. For those who do have the training, they're not necessary.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

stingc

You mention dry surfaces, and then snow, ice, and gravel. You left out wet road, which is probably the most important use of ABS. From what I've seen, even professional drivers can't compete with ABS performance in the rain (especially if the surface isn't perfectly smooth). There just isn't enough feedback.

I'll give you that ABS can be detrimental on snow and gravel, but modern systems are getting much better at this. Regardless, I think the ability to retain directional stability is worth it. Periodically tapping the brakes in snow can also be useful to safely estimate to how much traction is available. The pedal kickback brings the driver to full attention right away as well.

By the way, an ABS stop from highway speeds on dry or wet pavement will save a lot more than 20 ft over locking the tires. That isn't even close to the best thing to do in those situations. Cadence braking can beat ABS in some situations, but I maintain that almost nobody has the presence of mind to do this in the real world (and very few can do it on wet roads in any state of mind).

I don't think that deriding these peoples' abilities is (necessarily) very honest. I'm much more experienced than most at handling cars at the limit, and I still have found that I didn't operate the brakes as well as possible in real-world emergencies with non-ABS vehicles (luckily, I still haven't hit anything because of it). I do fine at the track, but that's really not the same. There, you're fully alert at all times, almost always know when you're about to brake hard, don't have to worry about unexpected road imperfections, etc. The braking systems on race cars are also much easier to control precisely than on any street cars I've driven.

Martian

I quoted the stats I had available. I left out wet road surfaces because I couldn't find any of my notes relating to that situation.

Allow me to make this perfectly clear - I have never locked the wheels in any car I've ever driven. God willing, I'll never be in a situation where I deem it necessary. It's a last ditch emergency option and should be treated as such. If, however, I find myself in a position where it is necessary, I'd like to have the option available to me, which is why there's a certain fuse that's been pulled in my fuse box.

I have used threshold braking (aka cadence braking) in the past and, if necessary, may again in the future. Once more, I was trained in that technique by a professional. I've also received training in things like using the emergency brake when the hydraulics fail, training most don't receive and training that I directly credit with having saved my life on one occasion when an old brake line blew out. Most people, as I noted, do not receive this sort of training. A great many of them are taught things that are a bit shaky or even outright wrong. These are people wh do not have the inclination to learn the ins and outs; the lack of ability isn't necessarily a reflection of the driver's ability so much as it is his or her character and priorities. I love cars, I love driving them, fixing them, modifying them, racing them and nearly anything else to do with them. Such is my character that when I started driving I wanted to learn everything I could to know how to control my car. The first thing my instructor did was disable ABS in the car he was using to teach me and he then proceeded to teach me proper braking maneuvers.

Allow me to stress this as well; knowing when to use any given technique is every bit as important (if not moreso) than knowing the technique as well. We've established that there are circumstances where locking the wheels is the best option for emergency stops - why then does it make sense for someone who knows when and how to use that technique to have it forcibly removed from his repertoire?

I have not made the claim that ABS is universally bad, and you won't see me make that claim at any point. In fact, I'm pretty sure I said exactly the opposite; for most, it's pretty much essential. I personally would rather trust my own training and abilities and therefore do not like ABS in cars I drive. This is a highly personal choice motivated by the idea that in the majority of situations I believe I can decide how better to stop the car than a computer can.

I have also never claimed that driving at the track is the same as street driving. Again, I think I declared the opposite here; track driving is a situation where ABS is almost universally beneficial, since the conditions are nearly always optimal and a lock-up on pretty much any track I've ever seen would be a very bad thing.

The fact remains that the vast majority of drivers are not held to a very high standard. I don't think claiming that is being dishonest, as it's certainly what I see as the truth. I can't make any universal claims but I do know that around here all that's required to get a license is a basic knowledge of how to handle a car - most of the drivers I know can't even handle simple tasks like parallel parking. People like this need the technology because they don't have the full understanding of what their car does, particularly at the extremes encountered in any situation where ABS (or a lack thereof) becomes an issue. I will not say that this is a good or bad thing; that's an entirely different discussion. The fact remains that ABS isn't necessary to all drivers. It can certainly be beneficial in proper conditions and for a lot of people it is very important, but it's not a universal.

My mother is a good example. My mother is the person who taught me the basics of driving standard. In 25 years of driving she has one accident and that one was long enough ago that I don't even remember it. I would not claim that my mother is a bad driver; however, she doesn't know cadence braking, she doesn't know how to use the emergency brake, she doesn't know what conditions are appropriate for a lock-up. For my mother these technologies that help her maintain control of her vehicle are very important. They provide a safety net for situations that fall outside her experience or training.

I have much less experience on the road than my mother, but I also have much more training. This is coupled with the fact that until very recently, I did much more driving in a given week than she did; this only changed when I quit my job, broke up with my (long distance) girlfriend and she started commuting. I have been taught proper techniques and have had sufficient time to practice them that I am confident in their use.

I do not make the claim that I am a better driver than my mother. I don't think of her as a better driver than me. We're two drivers who rely on our vastly different training and experience to handle the car in two different ways. The result is the same in that we both drive in a safe and responsible fashion; where we differ is how we go about it.

The technology is improving, but it's still unable to match a properly trained human except in a few given circumstances. It's the improperly trained humans that the technology benefits the most; I have always and will always maintain that. There may well be a day when I decide that ABS can stop my car more effectively in any given circumstance than I can, but that day has not arrived. I promise that when it does, I'll be the first in line to sing the praises of ABS.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

catback

Don't know where you learned that from but IRL it doesn't work that way, I know this from experience and physics class. It takes traction to stop, a skidding tire has less traction than a rotating tire regardless of terrain. Think about it the other way around, when someone takes off from a light and burns rubber to show off or whatnot how fast do they really get moving compared to the person who takes off without burning rubber. Point being without traction you can't get moving or stopping.

cyrnel

catback, that's speaking to debris piles and digging in, not the underlying traction. When the surface itself has poor traction a buildup of debris in front of the tire is often better, and locking up the tire is how it's generated. This was especially true with early ABS. Ice, well that's pretty much anti-gravity. Assume the position and enjoy.

I think there's a bit of talking past each other going on here. I'm sure you guys have driven many vehicles at many speeds (another track junkie here - but I'm not Schumacher, are you?) I haven't seen enough reality enter into the examples however. It's not very useful to assume track environments and full attention for 30minutes of 9/10 driving beyond theory and absolutes. It doesn't help a discussion about averages and daily driving which I believe has to enter into any discussion about feature benefits for daily drivers.

How about you're near the end of a two hour trip to Mom's. A beverage in one hand, a cell headset on an ear, a child in the back seat and wife next to you. It's evening and there's been light rain so surfaces are mixed wet & dry. Someone pulls in front of you. Oh shit. Baby screams, wife says something. Your briefcase flies onto the floor. Your mind races faster than any car. Nothing like good ABS to let you maneuver in these circumstances. (Old, skanky ABS on the other hand, that's just interesting enough to make you hesitate and wish you'd bought the BMW instead of the chevy.)

Okay, to averages. Now you are Schumacher, same situation minus the distractions. You make a masterful twitch or two of the wheel to initiate a drift round the miscreant and stop curbside on the outside corner. Now, the guy behind you has the distractions but doesn't have ABS, and you're Schumacher so he can't be... Don't you wish he had ABS?

These things always become debates about absolutes but in reality it freaking depends.

__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

Rippley

My best example/quote/definition/explanation on why ABS is a good thing comes from my racing instructor, who also taught a defensive driving type course. a large part of said course were so-called "brake and avoid" maneuvers. Basically speed up to pre-defined velocity, pass cones, stomp on brakes swervearound more cones, cometo a stop. In the course of prepping us for these exercises he explained the benefit if ABS as follows: The optimal brake-pressure is keeping the wheel turning right on the threshold of locking the wheel, thereby maintaining control and stopping in the shortest distance. Some, very very very, good drivers are able to do this. Most drivers without have to pump the brakes, getting to the point of locking, easing up a little, then pressing again, repeat until you've come to a full stop. Those most adept at this can do it maybe twice a second. ABS does it 12-16 times a second. Allowing for better braking and more control (good for avoiding babies, kittens, and really expensive damage) while doing it. He was, of course speaking of regular drivers, in regular cars.
Bottom line, there is no doubt in my own mind (card-carrying racecardriver) that on road cars for the VAST majority of the motoring populace, ABS saves lives every day, and is far better than non-ABS.

.02$

Ripp out.

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catback

All these lock-up theories I'd love to see each one of you put yours to the test, I've done my own personal testing by experience and I've seen the ABS and non-ABS testing by a major automaker at a skid track with professional drivers in regular everyday vehicles (mini-vans to be exact). All I've seen and experienced make me extremely doubtful of the "lock-up" is better idea. As far as the debris in front of tire idea it possibly makes an impact albeit a small one, same as the rubber build up accumulated behind the tire of someone burning rubber. As far as to ABS or not to ABS, if it doesn't work right then it might as well not be on the vehicle but if it is a good working ABS than it's a great thing to have although one can make due without it.

cyrnel

I'm agreeing with you regarding consistent surfaces and average driving conditions. But on snow, gravel, they aren't my theories. It's what happens with primitive ABS and has been covered ad nauseum by the motoring press. If you haven't driven one of these abortions you aren't missing anything. My 94 Grand Cherokee is an example of one that's nice in some situations and a terror in others, hence the disconnect. Newer systems are much better at allowing enough slip to generate buildup. In the early 90's tales of people driving their new cars down their gravel driveway and through their garage door were commonplace. It didn't help that people were still getting used to trusting the system instead of modulating on their own. Driver and ABS working against each other is the worst possible combination.

-An ABS fan. Honest.

__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

hemiram57

I consider myself a good driver, but would never want a car that did not have ABS. Modern ABS systems do a better job of braking than a person can. The only reason to not want ABS, is if you you take your car to the race track(ie. road course, not drag strip) and need better pedal control.

catback

"slip to generate buildup" ?...buildup of what?

I happen to have a so called primitive ABS on my '93 grand am...I can't disagree that it can be terror at times, whether you like it or not is personal preference and based on trust that it won't screw you over. My '93 abs system screwed me over once releasing the brake pressure for an extended amount of time in a time where abs really didn't need to kick in, I tell you that can scare the shit out of you when your headed towards a busy intersection. But still as far as which stops in a shorter distance, jambing the brakes (lock-up) or controlled braking, controlled braking stops shorter on any surface.

shakran

It's more accurate to say modern ABS systems do a better job of braking than a person with no advanced training can. I'll put a race car driver who knows how to threshold brake up against a regular guy with ABS any day of the week.

pocon1

nothing to say

bodypainter

I can see the pros and cons but I do know the ABS saved my ass a couple years ago in our SLK. I was rounding a corner at a stop light intersection on wet streets and a box truck in front of me stopped faster than I would have ever thought possible. I hit the brakes and felt the pulsing in the peddle as I stopped about a half second later not more than a foot from the rear bumper of the truck.

I'm an experienced driver, I like to think I'm a good driver, but there's no way I'd have reacted fast enough to modulate the brake myself in that situation. Our poor Benz would have been wearing the rear bumper of that truck before I blinked. I like ABS.

Now, the TCS, that's a different story.

BigTruck1956

One of my trucks has ABS, the other was made many years before ABS was invented. Theres nothing like slamming on the pedal, feeling all 4 wheels lock up, hearing all 4 wheels lock up, and then starting to think about controlling the skid. I like it when the computer does it for me, and so far its done it pretty well.

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fastom

I hate ABS. It's for people that don't know how to drive and unfortunately it's a crutch that will make them far worse in a "normal" car.

My worst experience with it was driving my fathers Suburban down a steep gravel road that had a sharp turn onto a wet wooden bridge. I was driving a normal speed but all the brake pedal would do was thump up and down and did absolutely sweet fuck all for slowing that heavy beast, throwing the shifter in low gear to scrub speed and sliding sideways over the wooden bridge was pretty nerve wracking. The drop to the creek was 100ft or more!

pocon1

nothing to say

fastom

Absolutely not! I would have easily slowed down, gravel is loose, it does slip, an ABS computer is stupid, it doesn't understand why it's slipping, it just thinks it's a bad thing. There is no worse feeling than having the car not react to brake input and that is just frustration when it's designed like that.
I wouldn't have skidded onto the bridge if the stupid thing had workable brakes. I consider it a very serious design flaw. I would never put up with that, if that means driving old stuff i don't mind.

catback

I'm with pocon1 it doesn't sound like you were doing "normal" speeds, sure the ABS doesn't like wheel slip but it really doesn't matter if the ground (gravel) slips just as long as each wheel controlled by the ABS slows down and stops equally in a manner that doesn't seem to fast. My guess is if you were driving a safe speed and slowed down early enough (anticipating the gravel sliding) you wouldn't have had a problem.

big_bubba

I have 2 main complaints about it. Some people will drive like maniacs because their cars have all kinds of gadgets liek traction control, ABS, etc, thinking that it removes the danger of an accident or greatly reduces braking distances and stuff (althought it clearly does, over a four-wheel lockup anyway). Also, and I've found this mostly with my Astro van, the sensors get buggered up with rust and grime and it kicks in WAY too early, like 20km/hr light braking on snow, the ABS will kick in. I guess the crap built up on the sensors will affect how it works. I realize some designs are better than others, but I feel no desire to replace my rotors and sensors every 2 years because they get fubar'd and don't work anymore when there's alot of meat left on the rotors.

I just pulled the fuse. Sure, the ABS light is always on on the dash, but meh.

.02

Plaid13

ABS is just now getting to be good. cars in the late 90s and older had alot of horrible antilock brakes stuck on them. i had many horrible expericances with a 97 caviler that didnt want to ever stop on icy hills even at less then 5 miles an hour it would never totaly stop the car they just didnt pulse fast enough. while the same hill with a nonabs car was no problem at all. While at the same time some of the better luxery cars made the same time had great ABS. so personaly i would rather just have a car without ABS just because i like to have more control over stopping the car then some abs systems could give. But im the type of driver thats never in a hurry to get anywhere so its very very rare that i have to stop fast. When the rare time comes up that i do need to stop fast i still prefer a good set of normal brakes over antilock. Antilock brakes only help if you hit the brake hard enough to skid with normal brakes. thats easy enough to control in all but the worst driving conditions and at times like that like solid sheets of ice and even the best anti lock brakes wont help there.