On shyness and being an introvert.
 

So I've always been a fairly shy person. I have difficulty connecting with other adults in real life, to the point that colleagues, most often the other women, tend to think of me as cold and distant. I am distant, there's no denying that, but I'm definitely not cold, just afraid of saying or doing something stupid, foolish, embarrasseing, or offensive. Sometimes after a conversation, I'll go back and replay it in my head to figure out exactly what it is that might have done or said wrong, that others might have been put off by.

This does have an upside to it. It keeps me from saying or doing things that are stupid, foolish, offensive, and thus being embarrassed.

And I think that most of the time, that's how it works. There's a downside, in that I tend not to have many friends, countered by an upside, which is that I don't tend to offend people and thus make enemies.

Being too shy to actually approach a girl I found attractive may have left me alone and dateless for months at a time, but at the same time it had the advantage of never having been embarrassed at propositioning a girl who was straight, or who didn't find me attractive, or was involved, etc. Being shy saved me from a lot of negative stuff.

Being an introvert in a public place works the same way. While driving cross country recently, I stopped at a Denny's and was promptly ignored for half an hour. I left without comment and ate at the MacDonald's next door. Downside: I wasted half an hour waiting to be served. Upside: I didn't give my business to a restaurant where, for whatever reason, I wasn't wanted. Another upside: I didn't have to confront them and find out why they didn't want me there, thus being embarrassed at being told directly why I was unacceptable. Was it the way I was dressed, or how I acted, what? On the one hand, it would be nice to know so that I could avoid doing whatever it was that made me unwanted th enext time I was in a restaurant and get good service, but on the other hand, it would be embarrassing to be told directly why I was unacceptable. So just leaving and not returning without confrontation has a bigger upside than the alternative.

Sissy doesn't understand how I can wrangle 25 12-year-olds or give a presentation to 200 colleagues, yet be afraid of telling the waitress I haven't been served yet. It seems obvious to me. In those situations, I'm the authority figure; it's my turf so to speak. I'm granted an automatic measure of respect as a result of my position. The same isn't true of a restaurant, or store, or any other public place. I have no power, no authority granted there to build on save whatever the particular people working there choose to grant me. There's no way to transfer from my professiion to personal life.

If I were with Grace, or with Sissy for that matter, she'd have taken care of the problem, which would have only an upside to it. We'd get served, but I wouldn't have to be the one to be embarrassed by having to confront the people over why they didn't want me there.

This is where Sissy has a different interpretation. She thinks I'm missing out on life, that being afraid of confrontation and embarrassment, that avoiding conflict are bad things. This is, I think, because the downside that I list for those things above isn't a downside for her, or is such a minor obstacle that the scales balance differently. She fails to see that for me, and others who avoid conflict, the stress that comes with it takes a big effort to overcome, and lingers long afterwards. The scales balance the other way. I'm a different person. For me, avoiding confrontation is beneficial because the conflict itself is harmful, regardless of the outcome.

We were watching the wonderful movie Awakenings sometime last year. There's a scene near the beginning of the movie when Dr. Sayer first arrives at the hospital. After speaking with the receptionist and being told to wait, Dr. Sayer stands in the middle of the waiting room to wait to be called.

Sissy wondered aloud, "Why doesn't he sit down?"
I answered, "There's no place to sit."
"There are empty seats all over the place."
"Yeah, but he'd have to sit next to somebody."
"Yeah?"
"That's why he's not sitting down."
"I don't get it."

It's a matter of perception. Sissy would have picked an interesting person and struck up a conversation. By the time five minutes had passed, she'd know their name and have a brief life story, and she'd be genuinely interested in it. Grace describes it as Sissy "collecting people" To her, sitting next to a stranger is an opportunity. To me, it would be a chance to say or do something embarrassing or offensive.

Being more assertive would lead me to be able to sit down, and thus be uncomfortable while hoping the person next to me wouldn't start talking to me. Being more assertive would lead to my being worse off in that situation, not better off.

After writing all that, I'm not really sure what my point is. People refer to being shy and passive as if it's a disease. It's not, and it's not, I think, really harmful most of the time. Unless I'm missing something in how I'm looking at this, the benefits nicely balance the costs in most situations.

And yet, somehow I find myself in assertiveness training, or did, with my therapist, even though I'm not sure I want to be more assertive. It takes an enormous amount of effort, and brings as much bad as good. In some ways, probably more. Suppose I'd been assertive enough to ask out those girls I found attractive. I'd most likely have been turned down most of the time. Let's assume that 3 out of 4 would have said no, probably a very generous estimate. I base this on the ratio of guys I accepted dates from when I dated guys. That means that I'd have been turned down 3 times for every time I got a date. Three times as many failures as successes. The negatives outweigh the positives 3 to 1.

So logically, being shy and introverted saves me from more trouble than it causes, by a wide margin. So why do I end up unhappy with situations like the one in Denny's, when I know I'm better off the way I did things? Being too shy to ask out attractive women on a date had a huge benefit: I ended up with Grace.

All of this goes out the window when I'm with her, of course. She takes care of the confrontation, and it doesn't seem to phase her.

So I'm at this place where I'm not even sure I want to be less shy, more assertive. I don't really see the upside to it, but still have this nagging feeling that Sissy and Grace get something out of life that I'm missing.

I hope this makes some kind of sense. I've been avoiding finding a new therapist here, and this is the kind of thing I usually talked to with him.

Gilda

I didn't have time digest the whole thing....

but here's one point that I'm going to start with and then see what else I can add.

I won't claim that I'm an introvert, but I'm definitely not an extrovert. I try to be what I need to be when the time calls for it. That said, I have lots of people in my phone book, lots of "friends" you may call them. I have tens of contacts in my book, some professional, but more or less, above an acquaintance. I have social obligations to some of them from time to time which I decide if I truly need or want to attend to them.

But let me tell you how many people came to visit me in the hospital or even called me in the hospital... a grand total of 2 visitors who trekked all the way from NYC to Long Island. Family called and a couple of close friends (Quadro and Jess) called on a regular basis. That was it... out of all the "friends" that I have... 4 were there when I was in distress.

Take from this what you may... but quite honestly, I've learned that my friends are friends, and some say that they will be there when the chips are down, but there are even fewer that will really walk the walk that they talk.

Even those ones that you "hang-out" with alot, the ones taht you thought for sure would be there at the hospital, did they show up?

Well I think the reason why people don't like being shy is that it doesn't give you a lot of options. It's essentially a fear-based response, and fear is one of my least favourite emotions. Obviously there can be positives to it (depending on one's point of view), but I see it as more of a drawback than an asset personally. Hence, I do my best to work past it.

Are you sure you can't just try to get over it and go up and randomly talk to people? If talking to people you could possibly like is a problem, why don't you talk to people who you will not be attracted to as a start? Go to an old person's home and talk to them as practice.

I'm not exactly sure of the point of your post, but you seem to be confused, so I thought I would reply with some of my observations.

Firstly, introversion and shyness aren't necessarily related. Introversion just means more interest in the internal world than the external world. This will be seen as shyness. Basically, introversion is when the person doesn't want to act. Shyness is when the person wants to act, but he/she doesn't (usually because of lack of confidence, anxiety, or internal conflicts). It seems to me you're confused if you want to move past introversion and be a bit more extraverted, but not sure if overcoming the shyness is worth it. Maybe you already see all this, but it's important to be definite.

I hope that you understand that this isn't necessarily an upside. It's only an upside due to your insecurity. If you were more sure of yourself you wouldn't care so much about what people think of you, and doing something stupid wouldn't affect you so much. Everyone does stupid things sometimes. I'm sure you know plenty of people who do stupid things all the time and don't let it get to them.

Think about what is happening: you want to do something, but fear what *other people* think of you if you do it. You are letting *them* choose what you do, giving them the power. Is this what you want? Or would you rather do what you want to do?

Again, it's a downside because of internal reasons. If you change yourself (become stronger) then the downside is gone, and only the upside is there. I really hope that you understand that, since I think you'll be much clearer on what you want to do if you see that. Negative stuff happening is no big deal -- it's only if you let it affect you, that's bad. Other people are less shy because they don't let those things affect them, and therefore they are less fearful of them.

Yes, it seems obvious to me too. You are letting other people decide the power. You act with confidence when you know other people will perceive you as confident; you act with shyness when you feel other people might perceive you as a dork (or whatever).

You keep talking as if being less shy will cause negative things to happen to you, but the things aren't negative in themselves; they are only bad if you let them get to you. You can choose to be embarrassed or not if the restaurant doesn't want you. Well, maybe not, but you can work up to it as you gain self-confidence.

You are a different person, but the differences you are referring to in your post are restricting differences that you will be happier without (too easily influenced by other people's opinions of you).

If you aren't sure you want to be less shy then don't try to be. You can't become more assertive without the motivation to change and right now you don't, so don't bother. I suggest work on your self-confidence: when this builds up, you will be less fearful of confrontation/embarrassment etc. and overcoming shyness will be much more attractive. Then you can use that motivation to do that. Build your self-confidence by learning more about yourself, and becoming confidence on who you are (and who you aren't). When you are confidence about who you are, you will be less concerned if people disagree with those conclusions. (Example: If you are confident that you are an acceptable person worthy of eating in that restaurant, you won't be hurt by people thinking you aren't; you'll just see that it says something about them, not you.)

I can't see any upside to being so pathologically afraid to speak to people that you can't get service in a restaurant, one that you wanted to eat in. I'm not entirely certain, like pje120, of the reason for the post either - just a vent or a desire to be analyzed to death?

I agree largely with the previous poster - you seem to "want" to be shy on some level.

I had a long post all ready to post, but pje120's post pretty much summed it all up.

I will offer that I can relate. I was pretty introverted for a long time, very mindful of how other people perceived me. It wasn't until I made a conscious effort to getting outside my comfort zone and probing the waters that I was able to be more extroverted.

You care what people think. But you care what everybody thinks, which makes you eager to please, or at least eager to not participate.

But I think you know all that. A side effect of being introverted is extreme self-examination, which has its strengths, but is very easy to dwell on. If you want to change then you need to first change your perception of the problem. If there's no perceived problem, then there's no clear solution or even a need for a solution. I think your perception is already starting to change, otherwise why would you have posted this thread? It seems like you're posing a question on whether or not you have a problem. Like the events you've recently experienced have made you start to question your worldview.

IF you decide that you have a problem (and it has to be your decision, not someone else's decision, be it concerned TFPers or your therapist), increasing self-confidence is definitely the next step. By increasing your comfort zones and feeling like you have authority, not simply because you're a teacher, but because you are a smart, attractive, and capable woman. That in its own right entitles you to authority. To reduce it even further, the fact that you exist gives you authority. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and is equally entitled to voice it. You are no different.

But the desire to change has to come from within, first in perception, then in action.

Of course, if you feel like I'm projecting onto you, you can blow me off (and that would be me trying not to offend).

as a shy person in recovery...

i think one of the problems is that your math is heavily weighted to give you the result you're looking for. Rejection isn't the only cost involved. Not knowing if you had a chance is one too...because i know the times i didn't get up the courage to say something...even if it might have been a shoot down...those are the times i regret the most.

i don't think you have to be anybody but you...but one thing to consider is that there is an automatic level of respect that you need to grant yourself just to get through the day. in denny's, you're a patron. that gives you status. in that comic book shop, the same... walking down the street, hell, you're a human being and a citizen of this nation. that gives you right to be there. i guess my point is that thinking of yourself as not having status compounds some of these situations.

respect is a 24/7 kind of deal....

Gilda, first of all, I wan't to thank you for that contribution. I would say that we are on the oposite scales on this issue. As such I find you of great intrest :) I hope you come back to this thread and tell us more about yourself.

I have nothing to comment on right now. I think it will take me a while to be on your level so we can understand each other.

I'm not exactly sure what the point of the post was either.

The reason I put it up because Grace is off on the other side of the country, and except for phone calls and our sleeping web cam setup, I'm feeling disconnected, because she's my main connection to the world outside my home and job and the internet.

The stuff I put into my OP is there because I don't have a therapist here and it's the kind of stuff I'd usually talk about with him. So I put it here instead.

Gilda

Introvert to introvert, I'm with you. I had trouble approaching women (my wife appproached me). I tried to avoid confrontation and uncomfortable situations. I tried to live life behind glass. I'm a different kind of introvert, though. I'm an ntrovert who forces myself to be an extrovert. When entering the buisness world, I had to adapt a shell in order to move outward and upward. It gives me a slightly different perspective, but I think I still understand where you're coming from. I say be happy with who you are. If you aren't happy being an introvert, make yourself an extrovert. Personally, I love being an introvert. There's nothing more pure than curling up with my wife and daughter at home and reading a book or listening to music.

My wife, not unlike your Grace I imagine, is my extrovert. I don't make her fight my battles, but she finds it easier to be out in the world than I do. When we are apart, I feel like a part of my connection to the world has been severed. That's the downside to beign an introvert.

Thanks to you and the others for helping an avowed extrovert understand shyness and introverted-ness better. I truly appreciate that. Just because I'm the obnoxious talkative one all the time doesn't mean I don't want to know more about other people!! :lol:

As for being introverted... If we were all extroverted, it would be boring. I see nothing wrong if you are comfortable and happy being introverted. The issue I see is that of the confidence and the self-respect. You don't have to seek out confrontation and meet new people and talk to anyone and all that... why should you if you don't want to?? The part that would concern me is that the way you describe your worldview puts you in a position of someone not deserving respect that we all deserve. Just common courtesy. If you're a patron of the diner, you deserve service in a timely manner. If you're riding the train, people shouldn't shove you out of the way just because you don't like to complain.

People are... well, they're shits, Gilda. All of them, in some way or another. And we all need a little armor of confidence, enough self-respect, to know and deflect that shit off of us. We all take a little shit every day, but it shouldn't be your turn to be shat on 24/7.

Just my thoughts... I think posting/venting is a great idea, at least until you find some one you trust to vent to!

Oh boy, all this talk about interoverts can cause people pingenhole thenmselves. The truth is there are many other factors that can lead people to act in certain ways.

For example some people have a tendancy to move away from things: like pain. While others move towards things: goals, etc. Some people are proactive: they initiate. Others are reactive: they respond. There are internal people: they judge things based on their personal universal concept. There are also external people who gain value from others and the outside world. And still things are not black and white. Some people may be very social in at work and meek in social settings. It's complicated :crazy:

On top of this, trauma can play a major role in influencing people. I understand that you, Gilda, don't get allong with your parrents to (to say the least) as such you could be afraid that others will reject you in a similar fashion.

Now you talk about the stress of dealing with people. Something I can't put in perspective. But if you would allow me to hazard a guess, perhaps you had to deal with judgemental people in the past and you had enough of it for a lifetime.

So, what I should have said to make this short is that there are many variable out there.

Glad to hear that.

I guess I'm just trying to decide if the work required to get to the point where I would be able to confront people in a situation like the one in the restaurant would be worth the benefit.

Gilda

What would be the point of randomly talking to people? I'm not arguing, I just don't understand how I would benefit from this.

I'm no longer concerned with talking to people I'm attracted to; I've found the love of my life and don't anticipate that I'll ever have to date again.

I'm not sure what you mean by visiting an old person's home and talking to the people there. Do they let people do that, just come in and talk to the residents? That doesn't seem safe. Also, why on earth would the people there want to talk to me, to some strange woman who just shows up off the street?

Or maybe I'm projecting because talking to strangers is a difficult thing for me. Anyway, thank you for the suggestion.

Gilda

Gilda, I really got everything you said, but there's one thing I want to point out:

There's a common thread to people who find themselves stopped or inhibited in social situations: they take things personally, and they draw unwarranted conclusions.

You have no idea why you weren't served at Denny's. You've arrived at the conclusion that you were personally unacceptable or unwanted, you seem to assume that your mere presence is offensive to Denny's employees, and that they were deliberately avoiding you. You really actually think you know that, like it's a fact.

The fact is, you didn't get service. You think you know why--you believe that it was deliberate and that you were mysteriously "unwanted" for some unknown reason--but the fact is, you have NO IDEA why that happened. Maybe somebody was changing shifts and you were at table at the edge of somebody's area and everyone assumed you were being taken care of. Maybe there was a big party nearby and their server was your server too, but was so focussed on the big table they forgot all their other tables. Yes, MAYBE somebody didn't like the looks of you and decided not to serve you until you went away. (Though... you've never worked waiting tables, have you? Every single customer is a valuable opportunity for tips. A server would never deliberately ignore a customer. Oh, and have you looked at you lately? Can you honestly think anybody wouldn't want to have you in their restaurant?)

The issue isn't about forcing yourself to be assertive on top of all your fear--as you say, that's a losing game. The issue is to confront the automatic assumptions and personal conclusions you draw, because those are the SOURCE of your fear. I encourage you to examine those thoughts, and learn to recognize and deal with them and put them to rest every time they arise.

I truly hope you are correct. I thought the same thing not that long ago, however it appears that I was mistaken. I have a tendancy to be reserved around people as well (tho not to the degree that you are), but I've been trying to force myself to engage more w/ people I don't know.

Ratbastid is correct. It's not always about you...

I think I qualify on both counts, shy and introverted, which is why I said both in the OP. However you want to define them, the problem is that I have difficulty with social interaction and with asserting myself in difficult situations like the one in the restaurant.

I don't know "plenty of people", period. Sissy and Grace don't typically do stupid things, at least not when they're around me. When I do see someone do or say something foolish or offensive, I feel sorry for them, and it tends to serve as reinforcement for me to be careful about what I would say or do in a similar situation.

I do this in situations where I have little to no power. Take the situations I described above. In the restaurant, the waitstaff had the power to decide whether to serve me or not. I can't make them serve me if they've chosen not to. If I want to go out with a pretty girl and ask her out, she's the one with the power, the one who decides whether we do actually go out on a date.

I'm not giving other people power, I'm just recognizing where the power lies in those situations.

I do assert myself, or at least I assert myself more, in situations where I'm the one with the power, my classroom and my home, or at least moreso than I do in a public place or in a social situation.

I'm not sure I agree with you here. If I were more assertive, I'd end up in more situations that I found uncomfortable. If I were stronger, I'd just be encountering that downside more often. This might have the effect of my learning to deal with that better than I do now, but it would still be there.

There are two parts here, being more assertive, and not letting the negative stuff that comes from that bother me. The first, in the absense of the second, causes me more harm than good. But if I had that second quality, that of not being concerned about the negative consequences, I wouldn't need to learn the first. And I don't know how to get to that place.

I understand, and I agree that people who aren't shy don't let things like this affect them, because they aren't as fearful. That doesn't change the fact that I am shy, and I am concerned with how others see me in a public situation. If it were a choice, I might choose differently. I don't know.

I am a dork, nerd, dweeb, geek, whatever term you want to use. I always have been. In my classroom or at home, that doesn't matter because the people in those situations don't care that I'm a socially awkward introvert, because that's irrelevant to those situations. It's different in a public place or at a party or other social situation.

I understand, but disagree. Because I am concerned with not being embarrassed in public situations, being less shy would cause negatives, not because I choose to be this way, but because this is how I am. It wasn't a choice. I can't just choose not to be embarrassed. If I could, I would. It doesn't work that way.

You might be right. On the other hand, sometimes restrictions protect us from harm.

I do know that I was an acceptable person to eat in that restaurant. Had they served me, I'd have been a polite and undemanding customer and left a generous tip. The problem isn't that I think I was unacceptable or what I think of myself; I know I'm a good customer, the kind of customer waitresses tend to like because I'm polite, make few demands, and tip well. The problem was on their end. They, for whatever reason, didn't want to serve me.

As for the rest, you're right, I'm not sure I want to be less shy. Logically, the negatives outweigh the positives, at least in individual situations. But then I look at Sissy and Grace and see that, for example, in the restaurant situation, they'd have made sure we got served and been able to do so without a fuss, and I'd like to be able to do that. But then when I look at the situation as it occurred, I can't see anything I could have done that would have gotten me served without inviting negative attention, and I don't know how to reconcile those two ideas.

Please understand that I'm not dismissing your ideas here. This is just how I deal with stuff like this, bouncing it around, picking it apart and putting it back together so that I can understand how it works and learn to deal with it. I'm not trying to be argumentative and I mean no offense, and I have found your comments helpful, even those with which I disagree.

Gilda

edit: Ratbastid, I just read your response. I hadn't thought of that. I'll have to think about it. I'm tired now, but I'll try to respond tomorrow.

Of course not, I did not even think of taking offense. I don't get offended easily, even if the other person is trying to be offensive, so although I don't think you are being argumentative, feel free to be if you want ;).

It doesn't matter how you define things, but it is important that you are definite and clear on these things. For example, you may wish to write out as clear as possible what makes a situation difficult, as this will give insight into what is the real issue. This requires self-honesty, which is hard for all of us, but it is vital.



Oh I dunno. I used to think that I did stupid things a lot more than most people, but when I watched people to see if this really was true I found that people were doing stupid things all the time. No one knows everything and everyone makes wrong decisions sometimes, but not everyone makes a big deal out of it. I've noticed that many people, when they do something stupid, just make a joke out of it or quickly move on. Maybe ask the people you know what they do when they do something stupid. Something else I suggest you do is learn to laugh about past mistakes, or let a friend (that you know face to face) teach you to laugh about those mistakes. This will make you more comfortable with making mistakes. You're human, you can screw up. Learn this.

You misunderstand. Clearly the waitstaff have the power if you are served or not, you can't change that. But you have the power to how you respond to that, you have the power to how it affects you. Does it really matter if you didn't get served? It's disappointing, but ultimately it's not something in any way important.

I am not saying to be more assertive. I don't want you to put yourself in situations that you can be genuinely hurt. I'm saying don't be more assertive, but instead change internally to become stronger. This will lead to less sensitivity to the things you fear, the fear will go, and finally the assertiveness will be easily achieved.

Yes, this is what I am trying to indicate. Don't try to gain the first without the second, you will just get hurt, and you know this. Instead gain the second.

I understand. It's not possible to change instantly. However I know you can choose to not be embarrassed - not instantly, but little by little, over time, changing your thoughts. In an embarrassing situation you might get embarrassed, and can't choose not to - but you can think about it later, pick it apart, and realise there was no reason to be embarrassed. If you do this with self-honesty, and reach the point you are truely convinced in the deepest part of your personality there is no reason to be embarrassed, then you won't be next time a similar situation comes along. This is how you get to the place with the second quality. It takes time, a lot of self-honesty, and it can be painful, as the self-honesty can lead you to accepting things about yourself that are painful to accept. You basically need to reprogram your scripts.

And, because of the way you think, it affected you. If you change the way you think, you can make it so it doesn't affect you. It doesn't affect other people because they think differently, not because they are magically different in an indefinable way (they aren't). I do not doubt that you can change the way you think. I have changed the way I think, and I have seen many people change the way they think, too. You have more power than you are admitting.

The attention would be negative to you, but not to many others who just wouldn't care. You can reconcile the ideas by becoming like them in that way.

I hope that you reach clarity.

Gilda, I completely understand. There are few things that are less appealing to me than meeting new people. I used to have panic attacks and run to the mailbox and back so nobody would see me. Seems to me there are usually several things going on with people who are, for lack of a better term, pathologically introverted. (That is, not just introverted and happy about it, and not just shy and need to be brought out of their shell, but 1. actively afraid of other people and 2. invested deeply in the reactions of others.)

- Fear of harm - being taken advantage of, being physically hurt. This is a legitimate fear that just needs to be suppressed to some extent in order to operate in the world. Most people have some kind of instinct about this that tells them when they're in danger. It's important to keep that instinct alive without letting it run away with you.

- Fear of judgment/rejection. This is the kicker. I used to be afraid to even ask a clerk in a store where they kept the whatever, and I'd wander around for a half hour rather than just interact with another human being. I don't know what exactly I was afraid of, but it had something to do with being judged and found wanting. Eventually I realized the absurdity of this. 1. who says they're going to judge me badly, and 2. even if they do, who cares? It's not like it has a real consequence. So they think I'm funny-looking, or stupid, or have a big butt, SO WHAT?! In no instance am I at risk of physical harm from them, and everything else is someone's opinion. And I'm the one wandering around the store, wasting my time. If the fashionistas at the bar in a restaurant think my shoes are dowdy, SO WHAT!? If the guy I sit next to at the airport doesn't approve of my taste in books, SO WHAT!? If I ask a dumb question and the guy at the cocktail party thinks I'm boring and dull, SO WHAT?! And that's assuming the worst case, that my fears about being judged negatively are true.

The truth is, everyone walks around like this, afraid of everyone else's judgment. Why do you think they (we) act like they do? Why do you think people wear the clothes they wear, or speak the way they do, or affect a particular stance or attitude? It's all just posturing to keep ourselves safe from other people's judgment, or pretend that we don't care. Those fashionistas are all dressing up for YOU. The friendly outgoing guy in the waiting room is putting on a show for YOU! The cashier who won't smile is posing for YOU!! Judgment is just the flip side of fear. It's an assertion of one's own standards to protect one's own position from another person. And that other person is YOU. They're all afraid of YOU!!! Isn't it funny? We're all just wandering around pretending not to be afraid of each other, and really we are all just putting on a good show trying to protect some little kernel of ourselves from each other's judgment. Meantime, we're stifling our true selves.

The sad part is not that we do this, it's that we do it and pretend we're not doing it. You are a step ahead of the game since you have realized you do this and seem to be uncomfortable with it. That discomfort is just "you" realizing that you're stifling yourself. You're caught between the "script" that is running in all of us to keep us safe from judgment, and the urge to be known in the world for who you really are.

If you're interested in an exercise, go up to 3 strangers and just ask them where a nearby store is. Notice the thoughts that happen in your head while you do it - the fears that come up, the assumptiosn you make about yourself and about them. Then notice what THEY do to protect themselves, to signal that they're okay, or to keep themselves safe - what kind of clothes are they wearing? What does their hair look like? Are they wearing makeup? Jewelry? Do they mumble? Do they make eye contact? What does their body language look like? How do they speak? Do people who look like you (gender, age, race) behave differently than people who are different?

Notice at the end of the exercise that you are still here. Safe.

This has become quite an interesting thread and helping me see and understand some part of my own self.

Something that I'm also realizing about this is that I do not like to ask for something more than once or twice for something that I want from anyone including Skogafoss. This includes things like sex, dinner, objects, or activities. If I ask don't get a response I will defitinely not respond again to that subject, for some reason I don't like the feeling that someone has over me and my "want".

thanks for shining the light on this for me.

Without having read the majority of this thread, I thought I'd drop an article on you guys that has really helped me out to figure out who I am and why I act how I act:

Caring for Your Introvert

For those who hate links, here's the text of the article:

In regards to my own personal introversion, it generally kept my mouth shut as a whole, and I rarely ever talked. I have half chalked that up to anxiety/anti-social disorder (well, according to my psychiatrist. I have bad anxiety...). Anywho, I took Zoloft for a month or so and I opened up quite a bit. That really helped me out for my transition into college; on my second day of classes I ended up sitting through an hour lecture in the wrong math class, and usually I wouldn't have the courage to go fess up to my real teacher, tell her what happened, and find out what I missed, and instead I'd just go back to my room feeling like a dumbass and then spend the next few weeks wondering if I missed anything major in class, missed a grade, etc. That day I actually went into my real math class, joked about it with my teacher, made sure I got everything, then I went home happy because I knew I didn't miss anything.

I suppose if you hate constantly having anxiety about everything, you could see a psychiatrist about it to make you feel more open and kinda loosen up about everything.

Thanks, Gator, for the article - I particularly like this statement: "With their endless appetite for talk and attention, extroverts also dominate social life, so they tend to set expectations. In our extrovertist society, being outgoing is considered normal and therefore desirable, a mark of happiness, confidence, leadership."

I can't tell you how many times I've struggled with my OWN expectations - wanting to leave a party but knowing I "should" stay and be social, wrestling with going out to dinner with colleagues on work trips vs. staying in and having some down time. It's hard to remember sometimes that being outgoing and energetic are not inherently better than being quiet and reflective.

Good article, Frost. I have become more and more of an introvert as I've gotten older. I used to be quite the party-host, loved having people over and entertaining friends (see Gatsby). But I remember a specific day in college, my sophomore year, when I realized my core introvert tendencies.. it was the welcome-back day, and everyone was gathering in the quad to hear about the summer and whatnot. After an hour or two of that, I felt like I was going to explode, and ran back to my dorm room. I was exhausted, and retreated to writing in my journal for an hour or two to let out my thoughts before going back to the activities.

I think this pattern has fit me well throughout my life... I do enjoy people, and I'm even an anthropologist. But I can't take them in great quantities (<5, though I prefer 1, maybe 2), and I need long periods of being alone or with my SO to recover from those social situations. Also, as I am in a long-term, serious relationship, I find that ktspktsp's company is pretty much all I want and need. When I was single, I forced myself to be social often because I knew I needed that interaction, and possible wanted to meet someone. But damn, it exhausted me.

I don't know how this addresses Gilda's concerns, but I want you to know that it is not a bad thing to be what you are. It is a bad thing, though, when you have a goal and you don't know how to reach it.. like wanting to be assertive and confident enough to demand good service in a restaurant. The only thing I can say is, it's okay to have those fears, and to believe that your benefits outweigh the costs of extroversion. I know many people who have justified other fear-based decisions (e.g. waiting for marriage to have sex) and they are happy where they are at, and they don't feel like they are missing anything.

But you know what?.. in my opinion, life is about learning to make mistakes and look stupid, yet to do so with confidence and grace. And I don't mean Grace, your Grace. I mean with learning how to fall down, pick yourself up, and say to yourself, "I'm fine, and I don't care if someone just saw that mistake. I am a better person because of it." and to be able to function without your Grace.

Also, look at what you are missing when she is just across the country.. what would happen if she died in an accident tomorrow? How would you cope, Gilda? These are the things I fear, for you... I saw my mother lose my father in an accident, after investing all her hopes and dreams and personality in him... and she was a wreck for so long after that. I still don't think she has learned to be okay on her own, 26 years later.. and that dependence of her personality is inappropriate as a mother. I needed her to be independent and self-sufficient, and she wasn't. And it harmed me.

I don't know what else to say. I accept that you are who you are, but at some level it sounds very much like you are unhappy with the way things are, and that you justify yourself with very detailed self-analysis and thinking instead of really going out there and taking real risks in uncomfortable situations. It is because of this discontent that I really encourage you to get out there, try some really awful, uncomfortable things, over and over and over again (this is a form of cognitive therapy), and eventually... you WILL change. But only if you want to.

I remember Bill Maher on Larry King, they bought up Johnny Carson and how people though he was depressed and unhappy. Maher made this statement statement:

I understand where you're coming from Gilda. People just don't know what I'm going through just to start a "normal" conversation. Am I going to say something offensive to this person? What if I pronouce a word wrong, or slur my speech what's this person's name again? Am I getting my point across!? What if they don't hear me!? Oh, I hope I don't have to repeat myself!! My heart's beating 120mph and all those things are running through my head It's inevitable that I'm going to screw up something. My stress level has hit the ceiling and I just have to get away as fast as possible. Then after I finally pull through the conversation I replay it in my head until I come to the conclusion that I made a total ass out of myself even though the person I was talking to most likely never gave the conversation a second thought.

It's not like you can just choose to not let something affect you. I don't think Gilda wants to stay shy, but you can't just become assertive without causing tons of stress and anxiety. I wish nothing fazed me, I would love to just jump into a conversation with a stranger without worrying about saying the right thing but I would hate to cause myself a ton of stress and anxiety with an off-chance that I'll get over it and never have to worry about it again. I'd rather just stay shy and avoid it all. I assume that Gilda is feeling the same way.

I don't mean to neglect this after I started it, but I've had a rather full Sunday.

Well, I think I assumed that. I was thinking that there isn't really any good business reason not to serve me, so it must be something personal.

It hadn't occurred to me that servers could just forget to serve a customer, that it might not be malice, but incompetence. That's a bit harsh. Negligence maybe.

The way I was thinking went something like this:

When I first entered the restaurant, my immediate thought was that I was way overdressed for this place. I was wearing a nice business suit (gray pinstripe straight skirt and double breasted blazer, ivory camisole silk blouse, black hose and pumps, gold heart pendant and matching hoop earrings, and a pink ribbon) for a meeting I had later on that day, and most of the people were in jeans and t-shirts, and that made me a little uncomfortable.

I was asked if I wanted to sit at the counter, and declined (the counter is fine for jeans and a t-shirt, not so much in a short skirt). I was shown to a small two person booth just behind the little wall behind the cash register. I waited to be served, and nobody seemed to pay me any attention. The hostess passed by me to seat others several times. A busboy came by and gave me a glass of water and some silverware and took my drink order (Earl Grey tea). Nothing happened for five, ten minutes. I decided to wait a little bit. I read the newspaper I had gotten. The hostess continued to seat other people. I sipped my tea and waited. And waited. And began to wonder why the people who come in after me were being served. I decided to give it a few more minutes. Then a few more. I didn't want to make a scene, and I kept telling myself, well they're busy, they'll get to me in a minute. I started to analyze things, what was the problem here? Is my skirt too short? A straight skirt rides up a lot when you sit down. But what if that's the problem, will the people at the meeting notice? I dismissed that, but set it aside as a possibility. Maybe it's the pink ribbon. But why would people find breast cancer awareness objectionable? It's not like it's a rainbow ribbon? I dismissed this also. Was it my haircut? When I got this cut last month, I was going for a butch look. Do they see that, know that I'm a lesbian, and don't want me here because of that? That's ridiculous, nobody can see that from a haircut. Maybe it's my heels; are they a bit too much? Maybe they think three inch spikes with ankle straps is a bit too much, especially with my skirt riding up? Did I overdo my makeup? I tried to be professional but attractive. Maybe people dressed like I was don't tip well. Maybe they just don't like people who are dining alone for some reason. Maybe it's a combination of factors. And so on. After a half hour of putting it off for another five minutes, I decided that I didn't want to know, and it didn't really matter, so I got up and left.

It really didn't occur to me that it might have been an oversight on their part. And looking back now, I doubt that it would have made a difference had I thought of that as a possibility, because it would have been one of a dozen possible reasons, most of which come back to my being unacceptable in some way. The math still comes down on the side of it being likely that they didn't want me there, a dozen possible reasons why didn't want me vs. they forgot about me.

And thank you for the compliment, but I doubt anyone takes physical attractiveness into account when deciding who or when to serve, and I don't really think that it would make any difference one way or another in my case if they did.

I think I can see what you're saying. I'm not quite sure how much that would help, though. As I look at it now, even aware that I was making an assumption that I shouldn't have, even if I include the idea that it was an accident or oversight in the list of possibilities along with the personal reasons, it still would mean a confrontation with the possibility of being told I was unacceptable and why.

I'm not dismissing what you say, and I don't mean to be argumentative, I'm just trying to process it and see where it would lead me.

It's late, and I need some rest. I'll try to process this and get to the other comments tomorrow.

Thank you for the imput.

Gilda

hmmmm from the way you describe it... it sounds like you were happy and got what you needed with the tea and didn't require more. My assumption as a server would have been if she needed more she would have requested it, especially since you were well dressed. My personal assumption is that someone who is well dressed is more assertive than someone who is casually or simply dressed and that they will make the request of what they want.

Gilda, I can understand kind of the fears you are facing. Although my shyness is not extreme, I have an example:

Studying in the library, its supposed to be very quiet. But when people talk loudly or make lots of noise, someone usually does a loud 'SSHHHHH' which shushes them up.

Everytime I feel like I want to do a SSSHHHH but I just can't bring myself to do it. A few times I actually walked over to the people and told them to be quiet, which is WORSE, because it makes me unanonymous in quieting them.

In any case, I was fearful of the SSHHHH-ing because basically it felt much ruder and pruder than going up and asking for quietness.

However, I finally had the balls to SSSHHH once, and although it was tense, every time afterwards has been easier and more natural.

I think this can be analogous to your shyness. Every time you need to assert yourself, just force yourself to do it and it will be easier gradually. It takes alot of guts, I know, but it will be easier after a few times.

Um, actually, it IS exactly like that. We live like our thoughts and feelings just "happen" to us, and that they are some reflection of truth. That's one way to live, and it seems to be the way that most people live. I've found that I enjoy my life much more, though, when I realize that my thoughts and feelings are just background noise, and are not the "real" me. They are something that the real me can choose to pay attention to or ignore depending on what I'm committed to at the time. If I'm just going about my business, chances are I'll listen to the "shy talk" and not really bother to approach people. But if I'm at a party where I can either choose to be miserable and wish I knew what to say, or I can just dive in and damn the consequences, I have a lot more fun when I thank the little voices for sharing and go talk to that interesting-looking person and make a new acquaintance isntead of wasting my time being miserable.

You can, actually. You just have to remember that the shit in your head is not real.

Did it work for John Nash (Beautiful Mind)?

Well, okay, but that's only a possibility inside the assumption you've made. I don't think you entirely got my point (like you say, it was late), so I'll amplify a bit. I warn you now: I DO like to hear my own (online) voice. If I get pontificating here, I apologize. :rolleyes:

There are two ways that people generally react in a situation like that: "It's my fault," or "It's somebody else's fault." Neither is necessarily real productive, and neither is necessarily grounded in reality. Still, we tend to go to one or the other of those two places. You've trained youself to be an "It's my fault, there's something wrong with me" kind of person.

Somebody who typically decides it's somebody else's fault is going to naturally speak up to correct the situation. Somebody who decides it's their fault is going to naturally put their tail between their legs and slink away.

Thing is, when you really look at a situation like that, nobody's really at "fault". More like, everybody shares responsibility. You probably already know that when you sit there concluding that you're being personally shunned, you give off "don't come near me" vibes. Look, maybe your busboy somehow got the impression that all you wanted was tea. Maybe that miscommunication got communicated to your server, who then decided not to bother you. Maybe your SERVER has shyness issues too, and you, being so professional looking and probably seeming so distant by that point, intimidated them to the point that they thought they couldn't come check in on you--something like, "She just came in for some tea, which she has, I'll just look weird or pushy if I ask her if she needs anything else. I'll just leave her alone with her paper." Who knows!

My point is, there's this whole WORLD of reasons why this thing happened that is completely unavailable to you, because your belief that you're personally unworthy prevents you from looking beyond it. That's THE reason for you: you're unacceptable, end of story, so then you quit looking. That belief will argue for its own existence--if you look at your response to my message, you'll hear the belief arguing for its own existence. "Yes, but" is the belief arguing for its own existence.

That belief is from LONG before this Denny's incident. You've probably believed yourself to be unworthy and unacceptable for a long, long time, since you were very young--maybe two or three years old. Something happened to you, and you decided you were unacceptable, and it's colored everything in your life ever since. I'll bet that's driven Grace nuts.

I know this about you because you're a human being and this is what we do. There's nothing personal about it--you're a human being dealing with one of the things that human beings have to deal with. We all think we're unworthy and unacceptable. We all decided that at a very early age--around the age when we realize we're a separate person from everyone around us, and we conclude, in a triumph of 2-year old logic, that "I don't belong". Some people get brave and bold to deal with that. Others get shy.

Shyness by itself isn't a problem until it starts to cause you trouble. If you experience a lack of power or freedom in any situation, or if you feel like you can't be yourself, that's when you're up against the limits of what your shyness can provide you, and it would serve you well to examine the roots of it with an eye toward dismantling them. Don't worry--shyness will always be available for you to fall back on. It's not going anywhere! But it sounds to me like you wish you had a couple more tools in your toolbox.

Incidentally, unless you told us here that you're shy (like you have in this thread, and have hinted at in others), TFP would never have guessed it. You bring personal stuff here and open up with it like nobody I've ever seen. You're more willing to be vulnerable here--and risk our disapproval or rejection--than 99.9% of the members, myself included. So it's not just shyness and privacy. It's something about dealing with that conversation in person, face to face that frightens you.

You'll notice, by the way, that when you do that here, you get an amazing response. Your threads are reliably the most interesting, best discussed, and most open conversations on this whole board, and nobody disapproves of you or finds you unacceptable. My strong belief is that if you generated the courage to open up in your life the way you do here, you'd have the same reaction--people would be drawn to you in person they way they're drawn to you on TFP. But until you explore the roots of your fear, that's pretty much impossible for you, because that early childhood belief will continue to argue for its existence, and it'll "yes but" your courage away.

This got long. I warned you! I hope it helps you see this a different way, hopefully a freer way.

Oh my god. That article is beautiful. It nailed every single inexplicable thing I have known about myself since I was little.

Fantastic.

Edit: Shouldn't post when stressed.

There are few things I'm absolutley certain about in this world. The love I share with Grace is at the top of that list.

Gilda

Gilda,

I present to you the greatest mantra of all time:

"One hundred percent of the shots you don't take, don't go in. " -Wayne Gretzky "The Great One"

Obviously you're a thoughtful and sensitive individual. You've done a great job expressing your emotions.

One of my introvert friends sent this interesting article to all his friends. In his own words, "Rarely have I read an article that described my plight so perfectly. The opening lines couldn't possibly describe me more precisely."

I tested as an introvert in my younger days, though I question whether that was really the case, or whether it was just crushing shyness. In my conversations, I would constantly be afraid of making a mistake. "Did I sound stupid? Did he like my joke?"

What changed me, I think, was changing the focus of my thoughts from myself to the other person. "Wow, what smart guy! I wonder what he thinks about this other subject." Instead of worrying about how smart I sounded, I started to enjoy how smart/passionate/crazy my fellow humans were.

Of course, there's something to be said for brain chemistry too--whatever inhibitions I used to have are long gone, and I highly doubt it was solely because of a decision on my part to change focus from myself to others. Whatever it was that was debilitating decided to disappear for me. It sounds like your friends think being less shy will lead to a richer life for you, and maybe it will, but they should consider the possibility that you are happier having a few close friends that you treasure deeply. Perhaps forwarding the above article to them will help!

EDIT: bleh--teach me to speak before reading all the responses. Consider this, then a supporting opinion on the article linked.

Edit: Shouldn't post when stressed.

Edit: Shouldn't post when stressed.

Edit: Shouldn't post when stressed.

Edit: Shouldn't post when stressed.

This is something I hadn't considered. Do people actually do that? I mean, go into a restaurant, order a $1.85 cup of tea, and take up a booth for half an hour? That seems like a very inconsiderate thing to do to me. It hadn't occurred to me that they might have thought I was camping. I don't think I was projecting a "leave me alone" attitude.

I did stiff the waitress who never came to serve me. If what you suggest is what happened, then what I did in effect was take up a booth for half an hour, keeping them from using it, and then stiff a waitress who thought she was doing what I wanted.

Damn. It's a good thing I'll never be in that restaurant again. A customer who orders practically nothing, camps, and then stiffs the waitress is probably what they like the least. Or it must at least be near the top.

Gilda

For what it's worth, the movie was mostly fiction. It real life, Nash has no memory of what was happening in his head during his schizophrenic episodes.

Gilda

people do that all the time, just waiting to pass time etc. One of the reasons that they have minimum service charges and time limits in some places. In NYC it's both... even McDonald's only lets you sit for 20 minutes at a table.

When I was in college I'd use Denny's to study for tests. I'd tell the waitress I'm here to study, please keep the coffee full and come every 2 hours for food... of course I'd only do that in the middle of the night and only when they where slow.

Edit: Shouldn't post when stressed.

You know, I think my main problem here is that Grace is on the other side of the country and I'm lonely.

In the midst of trying to reply to every little thing there, and getting all caught up in the whole restaurant incident, I think I lost track of the main point.

This is basically what I've gotten from the thread:

1. It's all internal. The world isn't looking at me judgementally.

2. It isn't being shy that causes me to be uncomfortable in situations like those I described, it's that I'm shy and don't want to be.

3. I need to learn to accept that this is just how I am, and that doesn't make me an unworthy person.

4. I shouldn't analyze things to death. It isn't not being served that was upsetting, it's the endless analysis I put myself through to figure out why. I should just accept that I didn't do anything wrong in the restaurant except get upset. I should just accept that bad service and rudeness is part of life, and not get upset about that. It happened. It'll happen again. There isn't anything I should have done differently, or should do differently the next time except for not to take it personally.

5. Everyone feels this way all the time, or at least much of the time. Some just don't let it bother them. Learn to accept my limits instead of getting upset about them, and I'll feel better about myself.

6. Being more assertive won't help me be happier if I don't accept myself as a worthy person, and once I do accept myself as worthy, I won't feel like I need to be more assertive; I'll be able to accept myself for who I am.

That alll makes sense, I guess. I'll try to work on accepting myeself for who I am. It certainly seems a less stressful course than the assertiveness training that ended so badly last month in the hobby shop.

Thank you everyone for the help.

Gilda

You're doing what introverts do, Gilda. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. I'm also an introvert, but not shy. I can talk for hours on topics that most people find mundane (namely, my wife).

I loved the line from the article: Are we arrogant? No, simply better in every human way.

Shyness is generally a handicap, one that can be conquered. Introversion is simply a state of reflectiveness that doesn't really affect your social life. At least, not in ways you don't want it to. Mantus mentioned Johnny Carson. He also told Ed McMahon that he was "great with ten thousand people, lousy with ten." I attended a seminar presented by Alex Chadwick, the NPR reporter who did a National Geographic Explorations series. He was funny and charismatic. He eventually came to my former town and I had lunch with him. A person who I respected, admired, and thought would be a great companion for lunch turned out to be a tremendously introverted person, possibly painfully shy. His producer basically had to "take care of him."

It sounds to me like that is Grace's role in your life. You can accept it, and that's fine. Or if you want more out of the situations you find yourself in when you're alone, you can work to change it. Your success in life doesn't hang on introversion, but shyness is a barrier.

That's one of them. It's mostly about loving each other, but her providing me physical, social, and emotional support is an important functional part of our relationship, true. It's part of it that works well for both of us.

You present it as an either or situation. I don't think it is. There are two independent situations here. When I'm with Grace, there is no problem. I suppose I could learn to be more independent of her, but I absolutely don't want to do that. I don't want to grow apart from her, not even a little bit.

It's only when I'm out alone that my being shy sometimes causes problems, so that's the part of the equation that I need to work on. Either accept that I don't do well alone and avoid such situations, or work to change it. I still don't know which would be the better choice.

Gilda

I'm sorry I didn't see this before. I don't want to seem like a pity whore, which was what I was doing the last couple of days, but I don't want to ignore a direct question, which would be rude after I opened the discussion. If these were meant as rhetorical quesions just ignore this response. This is more to help me listen to myself think than anything anyway, and I'll probably come back and delete this tomorrow.

I don't think I would. She's my life, my shield, my safe place. I've built my life around making her happy. I'm not good at very many things. I have a lot of talent as a teacher, and work damn hard to be the best I can at that. I'm not a natural, but hard work makes up for that deficit. I'm a master Scrabble player. Sissy needed me for awhile, but not anymore. Grace is the one constant, the one thing in my life that is an absolute sure thing.

It would be like when I lost Katie. I lost myself for years afterwards, having only school as a way to escape from life. I tried attaching myself to anyone who would have me, but couldn't find someone to fill that empty spot Katie left when she died. It took me years to realize nothing and nobody ever would, that I'll always have a hole where she used to be that will never heal.

I lost my parents when they found out I was gay. Another hole that I'll never be able to fill, a wound that will never heal.

Losing Grace would leave me with another empty place in my soul that would never heal. I don't know if I could deal with that again. There's a section in one of the Spenser books where Spenser tells Paul that the riskiest thing he ever did was to let Susan into his life, then to let Paul in. Because by doing that, he gave them the power to hurt him, a power nobody posessed until he gave to them, and once he did, it wasn't something he could take back. I'm not sure how that's relevant, but it just seemed as if it was.

Throwing myself into work and graduate school so that I had no time for a personal life left me with no time to worry about myself. Bathe, work, class, study, eat, repeat. It kept me somewhat sane and functional. I suppose I could do that again.

I think I'm just in a low place because I have an arm that is never going to heal fully, and I'm in a new place where I don't know anybody, and in a new job that's more than a little scary (not the work, that I know I'll be good at), and in a new place that doesn't feel like home, and I can't take care of my part of the family responsibilities by doing the cooking cleaning, and I'm lonely because Grace is across the country and Sissy is off doing . . . something, whatever, most nights. (I'll find out tomorrow what she did tonight. I don't know how she can do that, just take off with no plan, but she seems to enjoy that sort of thing.) Leaving me alone at night, feeling empty because all those connections I have to the world are broken, if only for a little while, so I came here, filled with self pity and wanting attention, and ended up abusing the help people were offering by constantly arguing.

Doing awful, uncomfortable things over and over again will make me feel better? I'm not sure if I agree with you there. I don't really see the benefit, but I'll consider it.

By the way, I tried lurkette's little experiment. At least a little bit of it. While on campus today, I asked someone where the cafeteria was. He was probably a student, about six feet tall, 200 pounds, dressed in jeans, flip-flops, and a Tommy t-shirt. He stared at me for a few seconds, looking from my legs to my cast then back to my legs then off to the side as he talked, made fun of my broken nose, then gave me directions. I wasn't hurt, as lurkette said, I was still safe. But it was just a little bit creepy the way he kept staring at me without looking me in the eye. The only good part about it was when it was over and I put some space between us.

Picking a guy twice my size as a first test subject was not a good idea. Anyway, my conclusion here is that something about me made this guy uncomfortable, given how he reacted. Maybe he's shy, too, and doesn't like being asked for directions.

I need to do this two more times, and at least once pick someone like me and see how she reacts. I'll try one time tomorrow and report what happens.

Grace comes home tomorrow night. Yay! I get to be back in my "happy place :)."

Gilda

Most guys that age turn shy pretty quickly when dealing with an attractive female.

As for my original post, being independent and dealing with people outside of your comfort zone is not "growing away" from Grace. It's growing, period. Keep in mind I'm in the same boat, and when I was younger (Jebus, now I feel like an old fart) I would never approach somebody if I were lost. I would just wander around until I wasn't lost (which I did, alot, lousy sense of direction). To this day, I would walk out if I didn't get served at a restaurant. What I do now though, is put a penny on the table.

I think your Denny's experience was entirely not about anything you presented as a person. You were there alone, which means the waitress (who is legally paid all of $2.13 an hour) assumed there would be a much smaller tip than larger groups. And Denny's has never been known for its sterling management or customer service. Your waitress probably went home that night and bitched about the single woman who took up 10 seconds of her time while she was trying to milk a famiily of five for a lousy $3 tip. Having worked in restaurants, and also having been ignored several times when I've dined alone, I can tell you this is how some waitstaff operate. I also know that if you piss them off, they will spit in your food.

That's why some of us get educations so we can make more than $2.13 an hour.

*hugs Gilda sincerely*

That's all. :)

Gilda, it's a shame that you are diminishing this thread by editing your posts.

People can see the evolution of your thought process before, the feelings you posted when stressed were how you really felt at that time. Now it's like a husk of itself. It's like you are now embarassed about what you posted since you stated the reason that you "feel foolish" yet when you wrote it, you wrote it with your feelings intact.

It's upon hindsight that we color the moment in history. We don't make bad decisions at the time, we all make good ones based on the information presented to us at the time of the decision. We don't act on something thinking,"Hmm.. I think I'm going to do this the foolish way..."

We aren't judging you, and we haven't been judging you, yet you felt foolish so you altered your posts. We are reading what you are posting and understanding how you are feeling and seeing it firsthand.

Also, Gilda, don't underestimate the contribution this thread is making to other people. You being so raw and honest about things gives others (like me) an opportunity (even a challenge!) to look really hard at our own feelings about this. Look at how many closet introverts have spoken up and been touched by what you've written.

I talk a big game, and most of the time I do have this managed, but shit, there are still times where I would rather chew through my own ankle than go to a party with people I don't know. It doesn't take much - a bad hair day, catching an unflattering glimpse of myself in a mirror, wearing the wrong shoes, saying something stupid in a meeting - and suddenly I feel like a worm and I can't imagine exposing myself to the inevitable and (I feel) righteous judgment of people who are so much more accomplished/beautiful/intelligent/kind/effective/choose my flaw than I am. Everyone else looks at me and says "what the fuck are you thinking? You're brilliant, beautiful, poised, blah blah blah" and I know that's not how I feel, but that's what they SEE. So this is the insight I can give you: listen to the people around you. Your feelings are not necessarily (or even likely!) correlated with reality. And they don't need to stop you from having the life you want. There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to be by yourself, which is a healthy impulse; but we ALL lose something precious when a beautiful, intelligent, compassionate, caring person like you stifles herself because she's afraid of what we might think of her.

I apologize for that. It was selfish. I was trying to make myself feel better, and treated this thread like my journal. It didn't work, for what it's worth.

I was in a bad place at the time, as I had been for a couple of nights, and I felt like I needed to . . . fix something, do something to give myself a sense of control. Grace and Sissy were gone, and I was lonely, and they'd be royally pissed at me if I hurt myself, so I had to have something I could do, some way I could change something about myself that would give me a sense of control. And there were those posts I made and when I read them, I sounded, to myself, like a whiny ten year old insisting that I was right in the face of overwhelming evidence that I was wrong.

It's like, I can't go back to that Denny's and fix things there by leaving a lot earlier than I did now that I realize that that would have been a lot better choice than sitting there for so long doing nothing and beating myself up for it.

But I can go back and fix the things that I kept saying about it, the things that made it seem as if I just wanted to argue my position and not listen to anyone.

I was embarrassed by what I'd said. I figured that the important stuff was all still there, the advice that lurkette, ratbastid, and pje620, and a couple of others, were giving me still stands, and my repeating the same arguments with them again wasn't adding anything except to make me look foolish and childish and argumentative.

Ok. I'm sorry to have implied otherwise.

Gilda

Yeah, I'm sorry about that. I was thinking about just myself, and not the dozen or so other people involved here. It was selfish.

Oh. I'm sorry that you feel that way. I wish there were something I could do to help, but as you can see, I'm not real good at dealing with this stuff myself.

Yeah, I get that. But understanding that certain feelings and emotional responses are counterproductive doesn't make them go away, or deprive them of their influence. I understand intellectually that getting on that 300 foot tall roller coaster is safer than the car ride to the amusement park, but it doesn't keep the coaster from scaring the bejeezus out of me, and the coaster wouldn't be any fun if it wasn't scary.

See, that's a big part of what makes me feel so foolish. I have this life that, on paper, most people would envy. I'm soon to be a college professor at a top university. I'm married to a beautiful woman who loves and accepts me unconditionally. Between the two of us we make a very comfortable living. And so on. Make a list of the good stuff in my life and the bad stuff and most people would scoff, and rightly so, at my whining and complaining about getting bad service in a restaurant. Hell, as I was reading back what I wrote, I was thinking, this is stupid, why didn't you get up and leave 15 minutes earlier instead of making yourself miserable?

That's the weird part. When I'm here at home, I don't want to be by myself. That's why I came here and posted all that stuff. I don't do alone well. When I'm out, I want to have someone with me, specifically Grace or Sissy, or when he's around, Boris (my brother). When I have someone with me to act as a filter so that I don't have to deal with strangers by myself, I'm good. Most of the time, I don't even think they realize that they're doing this.

It's only when I'm out in public or in a new place, like my new job, that I want to be left alone. All of the people stopping by today while I was trying to write up my syllabi for my upper division courses weren't just annoying because they were a distraction, they were, each one of them, a new opportunity to say something foolish or offensive.

Thank you for the help.

Gilda

Heh. I seriously doubt anyone has ever been intimidated by my looks. But thanks.

I disagree. Five years ago, Sissy needed me, I mean really needed me for emotional support that she couldn't get from anyone else in our family. As she's grown as a person, and grown stronger, she's gotten to the point where she doesn't need me at all anymore. Someday, sooner or later, she'll get married, or she'll graduate and take off on her own, and we'll be apart. Though this saddens me on one level, I recognize that she's better off without me than having to depend on me. Her growing more independent did mean her growing away from me. In this case, it's a good thing.

But if I got more indepenent, it would mean losing a bit of my connection to Grace, and that would diminish me in a way that I find very scary.

Well, I do the same thing. I'd rather invest the time needed to find my way than feel foolish. I don't see anywhere where people were saying that walking out was the wrong thing to do, just that I shouldn't have felt bad about it. It isn't what I did that was the problem, it was how I felt about what I did, if I've been reading it right.

Aha! Finally, someone agrees with me. Confrontation would have had concrete negative consequences that had nothing to do with how I felt about the situation.

Also, I think I haven't made something completely clear. It was in one of those posts that I deleted above, but as I think about it, I see that I really haven't been clear about one point.

I know that I wasn't the problem. I know, and I knew at the time that I should have been served at the restaurant, and that there was nothing about me that meant that I was unworthy of eating there. The problem wasn't about how I felt about myself, it was in how I thought they felt about me, and I didn't want to suffer the idignity of being told whatever it was. Being insulted is unpleasant, even when you know the insult isn't accurate.

Gilda

Ok, one last one for tonight.

I tried step two of the little experiment lurkette suggested.

I asked a man where to find the financial affairs office.

He was about 50, wearing a brown suit with a white shirt. Bald, with the only hair left on his head being the ring above the ears and at the back of the head, about my height and a little pudgy, maybe 220-230 pounds, but still big enough that he'd have little trouble with me in a physical confrontation. Any time I have any interaction with a strange man, that's there in the back of my mind.

He asked me what the happened to my arm and nose, and I said, "Car accident," wondering as I did what this had to do with anything. It still seems like a non-sequiter. It had nothing to do with the reason we were interacting, and we'd never met before, so he obviously had little to no reason to need to know what happened to me, and it just delayed my getting the information I needed.

He looked up and to one side, then with a little bit of annoyance told me directions. I didn't pay close enough attention, because I was watching his reactiion, and ended up having to check my map to find it anyway.

When I got there, it turns out that I was in the wrong place, but it took ten minutes before someon figured that out and sent me to human resources, where I should have gone in the first place. They had assumed I was a student, and never bothered to ask, then got annoyed with me for not telling them I was a professor. Who would have thought that the payroll information wouldn't be handled by financial affairs? How on earth was I supposed to know this? The way they acted, it seems as if I'm the only one on the planet who didn't know this.

God, this is why I hate starting a new job. People expect you to know things you have no way of knowing.

I'll try finding a woman dressed like me tomorrow.

I was invited to the faculty Thanksgiving dinner. I'm trying to figure out an excuse not to go. I tried, "I'm not a member of the faculty yet," and "I don't know anybody here" both of which bombed as excuses not to go. I'm hoping Grace will help me find one that'll get me out of it without actually lying. I don't suppose just telling them that I'm shy would help?

I got some not exactly bad news, but stressful news today regarding my class load, but it's late, and I'm tired.

But one last thing. I was told by the department head that I'm not actually expected to teach my freshman comp students how to write. I'll explain tomorrow.

Yes, I have landed in Bizarro land.

Time to go climb in bed and snuggle up. Despite the stressful day, all will soon be right with the world, at least for the next six hours.

Gilda

Gilda, it's a shame you edited your posts. Your thoughts are of great intrest to me. Not for amusement or as some labaratory experiment but you intrest me as a human being. You see, I get by though social events by trying to understand people. It's why encounters such as the one at Denny's, with that old man, or at the receptionist at office don't effect me the way they effect you. I try to walk in other people's shoes and when I do the experience becomes shared, clear and those negative emotions are disarmed.
This thead is eye opening for me. I hope you keep writing.

The warmth of my heart to you.
Cheers.

Oh, my dear. You don't need to apologize, and it's not selfish - I see you beat yourself up and I just want to either hug you or hold my head in my hands. I SOOOO don't want to be harsh because you seem to be fallow ground for internalizing people's comments, but I think you missed the point.

You went back to edit things because you feel they reflect badly on you and you wanted some control over your surroundings; we're not upset that you did this and certainly don't think it was selfish (at least I don't) - we just want you to get that (here's "the point" that you missed) those things you hate about yourself and want to edit out make you loveable to us and make us think about ourselves. Isn't that the best essence of being human? Connecting with other people and seeing yourself in them?

Oh, honey, I know you've been hurt in some big and deep ways, and it probably started (as ratbastid has said) early early in life. So early that this automatic self-hatred is just the water you swim in. It's so true, it's like breathing. You don't think about it, it just IS the way it IS. Let me say again, there's absolutely nothing wrong with how you are. The only thing that's "wrong" with it is that you are caught between familiar ways of being, and seeing that you want something else and not knowing how to get it because you just feel trapped inside yourself.

I'll refer you to another thread I started on "cognitive distortions." http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ve+distortions

When I'm upset about something, when I hate myself and nothing in my life feels like the way it should be, and I just want a reset button so I can start over and do it right this time, I look at these and ask myself:

1. What's the situation (just describe the absolute facts, e.g., my boss said "you didn't turn in the report I asked for on time", or I didn't pay my electric bill on time)
2. What automatic thoughts am I using (e.g., "I'm a failure and my life is out of control")
3. What cognitive distortions am I using (e.g., labeling and magnification)
4. What could I ask to challenge this (e.g., what areas of my life are in control? What have I succeeded at?)
5. What would be a more realistic statement? (e.g., I was late with the assignment; my system for paying bills is not working)

All we want is for you to see yourself the way we all see you.

Gilda,

:: DISCLAIMER :: I am as extroverted as one can be. I say good morning to every person I pass. I have never left a social situation without a new friend. My wife says that I couldn't identify a stranger if I wanted. Because, for me, there is no such thing. Sometimes, I speak to people and they look at me like I have 3 eyes. I've come to accept this and blow it off - maybe, they were just having a bad day.

2) This concept of automatic thoughts is really important. I actually was going to mention this to you, and I am pleased someone else brought it up. You seem to have "automatic NEGATIVE thoughts" or ANTs. For example, when you speak to a male you automatically evaluate him as a threat. The statistical probability of him actually being a threat in a public place in broad daylight is extremely close to zero. Hence, the thought is irrational and can be defined as an ANT. Your ANTs are certainly detected by others. You have been very perceptive with others' body language. I would guarantee that they are perceiving yours.

Did fat, bald guy ask about your injuries because he cares or because he wanted to project an image of caring because he could see you were uncomfortable/threatened? Perhaps he was trying to allay your discomfort by displaying compassion. "I care about your current injuries, so you can be assured I won't be adding to them."

Generally, your evaluation of the people you meet seems to be that they aren't behaving the way you expected/wanted. You might ask yourself, "Are these people acting this way because they ARE this way, or are they acting this way as a REaction to something I am doing? (Body Language)" And here's where you need to avoid the ANTs again!

3) If you want some light reading, you should consider picking up a book on group dynamics/human factors. You might not ever be truly comfortable with these concepts, but studying them might assist you in faking it during unavoidable social situations, like the faculty dinner.

I think Gilda is making allot of connections in this thread to some extent and everyone has been doing their best to give great advice and insight

but just as a note...

If someone wants to edit their posts... They CAN and should be able to Without having everyone jump on them for it, even if it's well meaning... it often appears as ganging up on the thread starter, especially when it's about something so emotion based... it is the thread starter's choice to leave words there or take them out.

Sweetpea

Nobody "jumped" on Gilda for editing out a bunch of her posts... they only said it was a shame to lose them, which it is. I constantly feel the urge to go back to posts from two, three years ago to delete all the things I said when I was less experienced in the world. But then I would never know how much I have grown.
In the same vein, you have no reason to apologize. You DO have every right to edit your posts the way you see fit as long as they don't break the rules. I think the people who mentioned it just wanted to see the record of your evolution as much as I do.

I hate to say it this way, Gilda, but it actually makes me a little sick to my stomach to read this thread because I am familiar with the feelings you are describing - only my reasons for having felt them were not the same as what I imagine yours to me and that is probably why I don't feel that way very often anymore. (And yes, I still find you quite more than acceptable, even though it doesn't really matter what I think.) What is the feeling? That it's not okay to make mistakes. This sounds really basic and I am fairly certain you've said it to countless middle school students in your lifetime, but I don't think you really believe it yet, so I'll repeat it to you: It's okay to make mistakes.

You are being very analytical about who you are, why you are who you are, and why the people around you behave as they do. But the language you use in this thread (and sometimes in other threads) tells me that you aren't playing by those rules yet. The consequences you perceive at the end of all these potential social interactions betray your fear of messing something up. But you know what? It's okay to make mistakes. So what if you wrote something in the heat of the moment? So what if some random internet stranger in another state or another country reads your posts and doesn't realize what you were going through when you wrote them? So what? Grace and Sissy still love you and you will still be the wonderful person that you are. Hell, even if you spammed the TFP with obscenities and were banned ignominiously, it wouldn't change a damn thing in Grace or Sissy's mind. Your students would still listen to you. You have a safe, if small, network of people who love and/or respect you. You have their love and respect because you earned it.

If you decide to try talking to strangers again anytime soon, I hope you'll humor me and try a different approach, remembering that it's okay to make mistakes. (I know that the whole concept feels like gambling, and you don't strike me as a gambler, but I'm going to use the metaphor anyway.) Try to think of it as a bet placed with a $20 bill you just found instead of $20 of your own hard-earned cash. That way, you can remember that no matter the outcome, you won't come out of the situation any worse off. Who cares if the casino might get $20 richer? You either have a net gain, or you end up right where you started. Not a bad place to be. Grace and Sissy still love you, remember?

Oh yeah, and it's okay to make mistakes. :icare:

Key point I realized too recently: it's okay to be you. Honest.

excellent point denim.

which includes editing posts if she wants too Without repercussions from other members :)

now, now don't jump on me for saying this anyone... i would just like to point out:

Keep in mind, none of you (at least to my knowledge) are professional therapists, which is the kind of individual Gilda is used to getting advice from and bouncing these issues off of, and although all of you have much to give and much personal experience... you must understand it's quite different speaking about these integral and emotional issues with all of you than with her actual therapist... so bear in mind, Gilda takes every word each person says to heart, the things you say (negative or positive) can have great affect.

Sweetpea

Wow, you're so like me it's scary.
Being in the same boat, I'm afraid I don't have any useful advice except to accept who you are and embrace the upsides of being who you are. The friendships I have made in spite of (or perhaps because of) my reticence have been awesome ones that I value immensely. I don't miss having a gaggle of groupies to go to the mall with and rave on about nothing with. I had that when I was in high school and tended to just tag along. It wasn't satisfying then and I learned from that.

Unfortunately, living in my head and dwelling on abstract things so much makes it hard to live in a world where every job advertisement asks for a "bubbly, outgoing personality" and everything is so in-your-face. I have never had a problem with giving presentations or public speaking either, in fact I do quite well at those things... but in an interview situation, one-on-one, I fall down quite spectacularly.

You're probably right that most of us aren't therapists (at least I know that I'm not one), but isn't this stretching things a bit far? I thought this community was about bringing different people together, not self-censorship in the name of unhurt feelings. I'd be willing to bet that nobody in this thread had the intention of hurting Gilda's feelings - not a one. In fact, I think all the posts in this thread were meant to help. We just express ourselves in different ways. And, to simply state facts, the TFP doesn't revolve around one person - that's the beauty of it. This isn't a private session with a professional therapist. This is an internet discussion board.

I think you should give us all (including Gilda) a little more credit.

Hear hear!

Everyone here is only trying to help. We all have the best of intentions, and I'm sure Gilda is strong enough to take the advice we have with whatever grains of salt need to be taken.

well, you got me for being perhaps overprotective of someone i care about who is going through allot right now... it's a natural tendency :) And you might have posted the same thing were you in my position.

Sweetpea

If you cannot look back as to where you come from you'll never really know where you were or how you got there. They show the tree of evolution of animals so that you can see how to connect the dots from point a to point b.

And to add to Denim's post and your agreement. She may have felt foolish after rereading those posts, but those posts were her at that exact moment. They were her real self at that moment.

Having been to therapy myself, the only reasons I know I grew outside of them was because I kept my own track, which good number of people do not do. Most of us here at TFP are interested in personal growth to some degree be it in ourselves or just understanding other people. My point of stating that it's a shame to lose the posts, is simple. They are part of the conversation that flowed and followed.

If I'd known it would have this effect, I probably wouldn't have deleted the posts. It's just one of those things that I do sometimes, not thinking that it might have consequences for other people. I do that sometimes, which is something else I need to work on, paying more attention to how my behavior affects other people around me.

But I do think that, if, as Cynthetiq suggests, those posts had value because they represented my honest feelings at the time I wrote them, then so to does my deleting them the next day represent my honest feelings at the time that I deleted them. They were little more than a confused mess anyway, and the posts to which I was responding are all still there, and I think that those are going to be far more valuable in the long run than the confused mess I made of things in what I wrote in response.

Anyway, once again, I apologize for doing that. I had no idea anybody would care one way or another.

Gilda

Yes, that could be the case. While you say there were a confused mess, they provided some of us an insight into how you think, a window into the mind of an introvert. Again, many people have come through here and read your posts and say that they resonate with something you stated. Some have come from those posts that you deleted, some from the organized thoughts.

When I took the Foreign Service Workers exam there is a part that is an essay and it's to be completed in pen. Specifically stated as PEN. People asked if they could use pencil, people were very uneasy about the fact that they had to compose and write something on the fly in pen. Sure you could use scrap paper to help orgainze your thoughts but ultimately what you submit has to be well written and in pen. For some reason people are uneasy about permanence.

Dammit. I just lost about two pages of text. I was working on a post about my third encounter asking for directions when I accidently hit a button at the top of my keyboard with a red i in it. A screen popped up, saying this was my internet button and I hadn't configured it yet. So I closed the popup, and found the post I had been working on for the last hour and a half gone with it. I hate this keyboard. Why the hell would they design it with a button that would close a window and potentially cause someone to lose a lot of work?

Gah.

Back to start over. I hate it when this happens. I've lost a good two or three dozen posts the last year by accidentally closing the wrong window at the wrong time.

Gilda

no worries... i'm looking forward to reading about your next encounter

Experiment: Part trois
 

Ok, one more try at this.

I picked a woman who was dressed in about the same manner as I was. I was wearing black slacks, a dark green fitted blouse with matching alligator (fake) shoes and black lace pattern knee-high silk socks. She was wearing fitted tan slacks, a white blouse, a gold brocade vest, and black heels with a small gold buckle on the toe. She was a relatively tall Korean woman, about 35, long wavy black hair, very slim. She spoke with a thick southern accent, which surprised me at first, and I'm a bit disappointed with myself that I was surprised, as that indicates that I was making an unwarranted assumption about her based on race. She mostly looked at my face, glancing down at my cast and my clothes a time or two. I took notes immediately after so I could get this right:

Me: Uh, excuse me, but would you mind telling me where the education building is?
She: Sure. What do y'all need to do there? [I was thinking, what does it matter, you either know where it is or you don't]
Me: I, uh, need to talk to Dr. [department head].
She: His office is in the school of education administration building.
Me: Oh, ok. [pause]
She: Are y'all new here?
Me: Yeah.
She: Nice to meet you. I'm Dr. [lastname, a distinctive British name]. [she extended her hand to shake hands, once again glancing at my cast]
Me: Nice to meet you. I'm Gilda. [I shook hands. I noticed her nails had an impeccable french manicure, which reminded me that I need to find a nail salon here, and I made a mental note to see if I could find something on the internet, but forgot about it until I starting writing this]
She: How long have y'all been in [state]?
Me: Uh, about a month, I guess. [if this hadn't been one of the half dozen most beautiful women I'd ever met in person in my life, I'd have been getting antsy by now; get to the directions already, I was thinking]
She: Why do you need to see Dr. [ed department head]?
Me: A couple of my classes are dual credit.
She: Oh, are y'all Dr. [English departmenthead]'s new GA?
Me: I don't think so. [I was wearing green that day, but I didn't have a bow with me, so I don't think she and I have the same interpretation of what GA means. I still don't. More terminology I'm supposed to know but don't.] I'm an instructor.
She: Oh. You have dual credit classes?
Me: Yeah.
She: They usually don't give those to instructors. What classes do you have?
Me: None right now. I start in January.
She: Yeah, hon, that's what I meant.
Me: Oh. Sorry, I thought . . . [pause]
She: I didn't know we had any new instructors. You English?
Me: [momentarily confused, thinking, no Irish and Ukranian, with a little Chinese for flavor, but that's probably not what she meant, and while I paused to consider this, she continued]
She: What department you workin' for?
Me: English and education both.
She: That's strange. They never have instructors do that. What classes you got?
Me: Uh . . .
She: I mean when you start in January.
Me: Uh, Freshman Comp I, World Masterpieces II [side note--I am woefully unqualified to teach this class, but all newbies get a freshman comp and a freshman lit survey as two of their couses, with the lit class being handed out roughly at random; it's only the upper division classes that are assigned based on specialty], children's lit, and adolescent lit.
She: That the three hour children's lit, or the five hour lit and methods class.
Me: The lit/methods class.
She: Damn. I thought that was . . . you aren't Dr. Nakamura are you?
Me: Yeah.
She: Damn. How old are you? [If I hadn't been fantasizing about clubbing her with my cast, ripping her clothes off, and having my way with her right there on the corridor floor, I'd have been ready to gouge my eyes out by now]
Me: 29.
She: Damn. I was expecting a middle-aged Japanese woman, but I guess I can see it a little now.
Me: What do you mean?
She: What are you, maybe 1/4?
Me: [quizzical expression]
She: You don't look Japanese.
Me: I'm not. It's my married name. [this I find a surprising, and just a little annoying, assumption coming from an Asian woman with a British surname; do people routinely assume that a woman's last name is necessarily indiciative of her ethnicity?]
She: You sure you're not a little Asian?
Me: 1/8 Chinese, I think. The records aren't real clear.
She: Ah. Listen, hon. You're not an instructor, you're a professor. It may seem a small thing to you, but it's a big deal to a lot of people around here. Instructors are temps with master's degrees and GA's [and I'm thinking, cool! I want to be in Mr. Queen's class] And you'll want to introduce yourself as Dr. Nakamura, or people will all assume you're a GA. Y'all sure you're 29?
Me: Uh, yeah, ok. Yeah, I'm sure. Can you . . . [I was ready to ask for directions again, but she was off on tangent number 17, section B, subtangert 3.4]
She: So, y'all gonna be at the faculty dinner next Tuesday?
Me: Uh, I hadn't planned to.
She: Oh, hon, you really need to be there.
Me: I'm not part of the faculty yet, I'm just here . . .
She: Oh, shoot, honey, don't worry 'bout that.
Me: I don't know anyone here yet.
She: You do now! And all the more reason to come. Y'all are part of our family now. Time to meet all your weird aunts and uncles [I actually felt a little chill when she said that; not her fault, she has no way of knowing how that would strike a nerve in me].
Me: I'm not sure . . .
She: Really hon, unless y'all are all leavin' this weekend, you need to be there. Dr. [department head] wouldn't like it very much if you weren't. [and I'm thinking, if it means more conversations like this one, maybe I can just quit now and have it all over with. Being a housewife wouldn't be so bad.]
Me: Ok. I'll think about it. Uh, where is Dr. [ed department head]'s office?
She: Damn! Forgot about that. [and she gave me directions]
Me: Thanks.
She: Remember, you're Dr. Nakamura, a professor. Start upfront with that if you don't want any shit from [Dr. department head's secretary]. If they think you're an instructor or a GA . . . aw fuck it. I'll walk you over.
Me: Uh . . . [and she proceeded to walk me over to the administration office, where she introduced me as Dr. Nakamura, with a heavy emphasis on the Dr. to the secretary, chatted with her for a bit, then took off.]

Sigh.

Here's what I was hoping for:

Me: Me: Uh, excuse me, but would you mind telling me where the education building is?
She: [gives me directions]

I'd have ended up in the wrong place, but I would much prefer asking directions again to another round of something like that.

I am sooooo glad this experiment is over. I'll be able to rely on my trusty little map and trial and error for the rest of this month. I think I'll print up flyers with a FAQ on them and just pass them out at the faculty dinner, which I ended up telling Dr. Departmenthead I would be attending. He told me to bring Mr. Nakamura so that everyone could meet him, too. I'm more than a little ashamed that I didn't correct him.

[sigh]

Gilda

Wow. That was quite the conversation. Didn't sound too bad though. Is GA Graduate Assistant?

seems to me that long conversation yielded alot.

Yes, there's lots of uncomfortable banter that happens when people meet sometimes. It sometimes stems from people making assumptions about the other individual and then correcting them by asking for more information or clarification. It's not usually meant to be insulting, it's meant to be informational to the person querying.

People have expectations. Sometimes we as individuals alter those scripts of expectations. To me this conversation is quite enlightening about how an educated person that wanted to get to know you and give you advice in the same conversation.

Your expecatations were to be a simple single question and answer conversation.

Let me point out that the conversations you have here, the information you interject here, belies your introversion. You speak here with confidence of subject matter.

Transfer that ability to real life. Yes easier said than done, but not impossible. We don't bite, and neither do people in real life (unless you ask them too ;) )

"Gilda shots.....she scores!!!!" (Wayne Gretzky reference)

I viewed this encounter as a complete success. While the other participant did most of the reaching out (which, we expected, and that's fine), you walked away from it with a new friend, colleague, ally. Oh, and she was nice to look at - which is never a bad thing. There was no downside to it, good for you!

Suggestions: Next time you see her on campus, say hello and tell her you appreciated her help. Second, compliment her on her nails and inquire as to where she has them done. You need yours done, afterall. Maybe the two of you could get appts. at the same time and strengthen your friendship/alliance?

Question: While your approach was identical in all three cases, your initial thoughts were very different. In the first two cases, you felt threatened and disengaged as quickly as possible. In the third case, you complied with the subjects suggestions and spent much more time with the individual. So, what was it about the third subject that you allowed yourself to remain engaged with the person?

Gee, what kind of comic nerd are you?

GA = Green Arrow, i.e. Oliver Queen.

Oh, and apparently, these strange people mean GA to mean graduate assistant, ie, a graduate student who acts as slavel labor for a full professor. I was used to TA back home for the same thing.

Gilda

That makes sense. Maybe it's the assumption she was making that just because she wanted to know more about me that that would mean that I'd want to share that information.

Then again, I was looking and analyzing her at the same time, ethnicity, dress, nails, accent, name, etc. I was just doing it differently, and without verbalizing my assumptions and checking them with her in that way.

I wonder if she'd have been offended if I'd asked her if she was Korean, as I assumed, or commented on how the accent surprised me coming from an Asian woman. Given that she didn't have any qualms asking about my ethnicity, going so far as to ask a couple of probing questions, I somehow doubt it, but that isn't something that I could have known on the fly at that time. I still don't think I'd want to make that assumption based on so little information and then say something that would offend her or appear to be racist. Then again, I'm already making that assumption, in making any kind of judgement about her based on ethnicity, I'm just not expressing that aloud.

That's part of my problem. I understand the basic script, but don't know how to alter it on the fly, so to speak. And when the conversation goes so far off the rails that it leaves the original neighborhood and ends up three states away, I get completely lost, as you can see by my completly lack of contribution above.

When I'm "here", I'm physically at home, usually with Grace around somewheer, often with Sissy. I'm in a comfort zone. I have the luxury to pick and choose which of the thousand different conversations I want to join, and or to just hang out and read, be a wallflower that watches and observes without being involved. And I express myself much better in writing than in speaking.

Hmmm. Actually that's not entirely true. Given the right subject--children's literature, poetry, transsexuals, lesbians, comic books, pedagogy, Scrabble, kung fu movies--I can talk easily and comfortably, because I know the script beginning to end, and I can handle tangents; hell, the tangents are fun. I'm also in a comfort zone when discussing those things, home or class, which makes it far easier. There is, however, no script to follow with a casual encounter with someone you don't know in a college corridor, and public places aren't comfort zones, so I'm out of my element both intellectually and emotionally.

That's after-the-fact analysis, of course. In the moment, I just worry about whether or not I should air what I'm thinking, and possibly offend or sound foolish or end up embarrassed.

Well, Grace does, but . . . dammit. You had to go and take my joke. It's not really fair for you to toss out the setup like that and then take it for yourself.

I don't know how I could transfer that to real life. Unless she somehow ends up in my home, I'm not going to have her in a comfort zone where I can bring up the things I was thinking.

Gilda

I feel like that when it comes to important phone calls or dealing with upper management. My brain starts scrambling for answers to the tangents and my speech becomes quiet and mumbled.

But there was. I was uncomfortable to start, and got more so the longer we talked. By the way, the conversation continuted non-stop as we walked to the administative offices, moving on to how I was injured, where I went to school, what the subject of my dissertation was, what it's like teaching middle school, how it was nice to have another woman under 50 in the department, and so forth.

I got where I needed to go, which technically makes this conversation a success, but it was an uncomfortable ride, so to speak. I also managed not to embarrass myself, so that part, too, was a success.

Oh, I can assure you without question that that isn't going to happen. One casual encounter with a 20 minute conversation doesn't make us friends or allies. I got the impression she's like this with everyone, that it's just her personality. If this is true, then I really don't want to assume anything further about anything she said to me, or assume a familiarity that isn't really there, and thus risk making her uncomfortable. I did ok with the passive answer questions and not get too aggressive approach that I used, so I think I'll stick with that for now and see where it leads me.

In addition, she didn't know during the conversaion that I'm a lesbian. That will become generally known very soon, specifically Tuesday afternoon when I take Grace to the faculty dinner with me (apparently it's almost as much of a snub not to bring your spouse as it is not to come yourself; strange and alien ways abound here). However, that knowledge tends to color other interactions. I can't compliment another woman on her appearance the way most women do, because there's always the possibility that this will cause offense or be misinterpreted as something other than a casual comment.

And trying to make matching appointments? That's a minefield of potential misinterpretation just waiting to go off.

Basically, the first two guys told me the directions in the first minute, and this woman made me wait until I'd gone through a good 20 minutes of slow torture in the form of question after questiion.

Gilda

I think that most of the time, judgments exist because there is some element of truth to them. I don't mean to say that all judgments are always true all the time, but if we're not going to live entirely within ourselves, we have to, on some level accept that other people matter also. We have to give others power to affect us in order to be connected to them. When we're in a situation where the power already lies with the other people, such as when we're in a restaurant, or in a store, or talking to a supervisor, it makes sense to recognize that they already have the power whether we like that or not. When asking for directions, it's the other person who has the power, to decide whether to give them or not, to give them accurately or not. This isn't internalizing negative things, it's just recognizing reality.

This is part of why I had more difficulty asking the men for directions than the women. In a very real physical sense, these guys had the power to do me great physical harm, and if they chose to do so, I would have little to no ability to do anything about it. Recognizing this isn't internalizing outside influences, it's just recognizing reality. I understand that this is highly unlikely, but to not be aware of this possibility is to be taking an unnecessary chance.

Thank you, I'll look at it.

Ok let me try. I'll use the Denny's incident:

1. What's the situation

Nobody served me or took my order for half an hour.

2. What automatic thoughts am I using

The people decided not to serve me. They saw something about me that they disliked.

3. What cognitive distortions am I using

From your thread:

JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS: You make a negative interpretation even though there are no definite facts that convincingly support your conclusion.
A. MIND READING: You arbitrarily conclude that someone is reacting negatively to you, and you don't bother to check this out.
B. THE FORTUNETELLER ERROR: You can anticipate that things will turn out badly, and you feel convinced that your prediction is an already-established fact.

I was doing both A and B.

4. What could I ask to challenge this?

What other reasons might there be for their not serving me?

5. What would be a more realistic statement?

They might have decided not to serve me, or it might be an oversight. I have no way of knowing which it is. There's no way of knowing what would happen if I decided to confront them about it.

Ok, I get to this point, and I'm not sure what to do next. Let's assume I had the presense of mind to do this at the restaurant. Maybe I get up and leave earlier instead of sticking it out? I realize now that that's what I should have done. Maybe I just chalk it up to bad service at a restaurant, and say, well, getting an egg McMuffin instead of getting an omelette isn't such a bad thing.

I don't know. The problem is that that's in the past, and I can't see any way to apply this in the moment, when I'm faced with an interaction that isn't going by the rules, the script I'm used to. It would take far too much time and presense of mind; it's really only in hindsight that I'm able to do this. It's taken me a good 15-20 minutes to write this, thinking about each part of it, and referring to the list a couple of times.

Still, I do very much appreciate the help.

Gilda

Sure it does. I respect your opinions, even when I disagree with them. This place would have little value to me if I didn't care about what the people here said and thought.

I know that. It isn't the mistakes that bother me, it's the potential negative consequences that go with them. I can't alienate someone if I never say anything offensive to them, and I can't say anything offensive if I avoid saying anything with potential to offend. For example, in the conversation with the woman in the hallway yesterday, I could have commented on how charming I found her accent coming from an Asian woman, but there are three or four ways for her to find offense in such a statement, so I kee it to myself. Sure, she might have just accepted it at face value, but I have no way of knowing what the outcome would be (Fortune Telling), so it's best to err on the side of caution and not say anything.

So, wait, you mean that it's ok to make mistakes? Sure, I get that. But it doesn't hurt to minimize the number of mistakes we make.

There's something I don't think you understand. I don't have any friends in real life. Grace and Sissy and Boris are my family. I had those guys in my comic club, but they weren't friends, just some guys I shared an interest with, and who respected me because I know a lot about comics, I'm really good at leading a discussion of literature (it is what I do for a living) and I have a truly awesome collection of comic books and cartoons. They weren't friends, but even that small connection is gone.

Of course Grace and Sissy will still love and respect me. I get that unconditionally from Grace because I'm her lover, and from Sissy because I'm the closest thing to a decent parent she's ever had.

That type of unconditional acceptance doesn't exist when I'm interacting with strangers, when I'm in a store or restaurant, or talking to a colleague I just met in the corridor, so I have to be very careful with what I say and do. They're going to react to me based solely on my actions and their perceptions of me, so I have to be careful to project just the right image and be much more careful what I say. I've gone back and changed the wording in this post and deleted a paragraph already because I want to be as clear as possible, and not be tempted to come back here tomorrow and erase this

Thank you. I appreciate the advice. I don't think it's possible for any interaction to have only an upside, though. TANSTAAFL.

Gilda

I realize that. The probability is small. But it is there. Not being aware of that would be foolish.

I have no idea. It obviously couldn't be out of concern for my health or welfare, because we'd never seen each other or spoken before that moment.

I'm sorry, but I don't really see that as a reasonable interpretation. I'm a complete stranger. Why should he care about how I feel or my injuries?

This is exactly what I was doing in that restaurant when I wasn't served. I was wondering if they were reacting to something about me, the way I was dressed, or something I did.

Thank you. I'll keep that in mind.

Gilda

I this entry you state how it's acceptable to make mistakes, but at the same time that you don't want to make mistakes because of the negative consequences that come with them.

But that's all about making the mistake.

It's okay to have the negative consequences that come with the mistake. You aren't accepting of that portion of the mistake experience.

I cannot say these things much better than someone else has already done.

If you've been reading my journal you've probably already read these, but these apply to you from my personal growth bible: If Life is a Game These Are the Rules. Of the 10 "rules" these 5 apply.

That's what I was getting at. It isn't the mistake part that I mind, it's the consequences.

I fully accept that it's ok to make mistakes. I also think that it makes sense to avoid the mistakes whenever possible so as to avoid the negative consequences that come with them. I carefully avoided saying anything offensive and said only the minimum when talking to the woman Friday because there were actual consequences--delaying the directions part of the interaction--potential consequences--being offensive--and no benefits.

Plus, she seems like a very nice person, she seems to have a good grasp of the nature of the university subculture, and if I'm processing what she said accurately, we're the only two women in English teacher prep under the age of 50. So this is a person it would be good to have on my side. But even as I write that, it seems cold. It obviously would be inconsiderate of me to use her as a tool for my own benefit; I don't want to be the kind of person who does that, uses people.

Thus, it's even more important not to do or say anything that would make me seem foolish or offensive around her, at least until I know what will and won't do that.

Of course I don't actually go through that thought process at the time; at the time, I just keep thinking that I want to avoid offense, and I want to get the information I asked for.

Damn, I'm arguing with you again. I'll just stop now.

Gilda

Thanks Cynthetiq. I have Life 101 around here somewhere, maybe it'll help to dig it out.

After all this whining and moaning and arguing I've been doing, I wanted to finish this up with a couple of thoughts, and one conversation I actually enjoyed.

1. I'm not sure why I don't just shut up and listen. I guess I'm trying to treat this like therapy, where I tend to do the vast majority of the talking. If I ask for advice, I should probably listen to it more than I have been.

2. I appreciate all the advice given, even when I was arguing with you. Please understand that I didn't mean to be hostile, so if that's what it sounds like, I apologize.

3. I am so glad the experiment is over and I can go back to just finding my way on my own. I have no idea whether the experiment was a success or a failure. It was really uncomfortable, but I did end up getting where I needed to go, so I think it's a wash.

4. Grace and I went shopping for outfits to wear to the dinner Tuesday. I had planned something to wear, but when we were out shopping, it occurred to me that I don't know the level of formality required, so I didn't know what to get. [sigh] Another one of those things where everyone at the university but me probably just knows this. Which reminds me that I don't know how I'm supposed to dress for class, either. Do they expect business professional, business casual, sporty casual, is straight casual ok everyday, or do they have casual Fridays? Is it different for instructors and for department heads?

There really ought to be a flyer with a FAQ containing stuff like this on it for new employees so that we wouldn't have to just muddle through with guesswork, trial and error. I'm going to watch the other female teachers to see what level they display and act accordingly.

5. I know that I'm a good person, that I am acceptable, that I am worthy of the love of those close to me. It's not my image of myself that colors my interactions with strangers, it's the image others have of me, or might have of me.

Ok, on to the pleasant conversaion. Friday morning, I'm at the elementary school where I'm voluneering as an aide. Now this is an easy place for interaction. The teachers tell me what to do, and I do it. No small talk necessary. And I get to chat with the kids, which is fun because I like to see how their minds work.

I'm reading a phonics reader with a little girl, and we finish the excercise early:

She: Miss Nakim, uh, Naker, uh . . .
Me: Nok-uh-mur-uh
She: Miss Nakarooma, my leg hurts. [I love the way they keep butchering my name]
Me: My arm is broken. [I hold up my cast]
She: [goggles at me for a second] I hit it at recess. See? [she shows me a bruise]
Me: My arm broken here, here, here, and here.
She: I was running and I bumped into Kyle and fell down.
Me: I drove my car into a ditch.
She: I bumped here, see?
Me: I have frizzy hair.
She: My hair's frizzer than yours is. It's all messed up from recess.
Me: No your hair's just mussed. Mine's frizzy from the humidity.
She: Uh-uh, see?
Me: I have split ends, too.
She: [grins]
Me: Do you know any good hairdressers?
She: I could ask my mom. She gets her hair colored.
Me: Me too. I actually have green hair. It matches my eyes.
She: Your eyes aren't green, they're tan.
Me: That's called amber. I have my eyes colored, too.
She: [grins again] No you don't!
Me: Yes I do! [I reach up and slide the contact lens down a little bit.]
She: Those are contacts!
Me: That's what I told you. I'm near-sighted.
She: My eyes are . . .

At this point the teacher sent me a new student, which was a shame, because you really don't get a chance for witty banter like this very often. I'm looking forward to Monday, because I really could use a new hairdresser.

Gilda

Good for you for going out and talking to strangers. The point of the experiment was not that it was going to be a success or a failure - it was for you to be in a deliberately uncomfortable situation, and to just notice (in a mindfulness "noticing" sort of way) your feelings, and to see that there were no "real" negative consequences. You keep talking about these "negative consequences" like they're real things, things you can touch, like a physical wound. Not that feelings and opinions are not real, but they're not "true." And the feelings and thoughts that you are choosing (yes, choosing) to have about your interactions with strangers are not serving you very well. That's all I was trying to convey.

Ok. Thank you.

I had about a page of rebuttal typed up, but it was just a repetition of what I've been saying, so I see nothing to be gained by posting it.

If it's any consolation, I've been bitchy and moody at home all week long, too. It isn't just the people here I've been taking it out on. I do appreciate the patience and support you've shown me, even if that hasn't been clear from what I've been posting.

It's just . . . I'm here in this place where I know that my being closed off from other people tends to keep me isolated at work and when in public and I don't want to be like this, I don't want to be so closed off from the world, and I don't see any way to get from point A to point B, I don't see any path from where I am to where I want to be, so it's just easier to defend the status quo than to try to fix something that so badly broken.

And now I have this party to go to, and I've never been good at parties. I managed to avoid every single party at my old school in the six plus years I taught there, and now I've managed to let myself be manipulated into actually going to one here, and I don't even work here yet. I wanted to develop a reputation for being a good teacher before I met very many people. I was trying to come up with an excuse not to go, but Grace won't let me; she says that now that I've agreed to go, I need to follow up on my commitment.

And the woman from Friday just popped into my office today and sat down and talked for 20 minutes about nothing but trivia, the party, what I'm wearing, who I've met so far, what did I think of Dr. Departmenthead, etc., and all I can think is that all I did was ask for directions, and wonder why she's doing this, what her motive is.

And stress just keeps piling up on stress and I know that it's all entirely my own doing.

Thank you for your help. It is appreciated, everything from everyone. It wasn't my intention to keep dumping on everyone here, and your patience with me this last week has been more than generous, more than my behavior warranted.

Gilda

The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

I cannot see the direct path to the destination, but I know it's there. I just know. I know that I have to put one foot in front of the other and eventually I will be there. It may not be the most direct route, it may not be the quickest path, but it is a path.

The skills are within you, you used them to get to know Grace, Sweetpea, Lurkette, and the rest of us, you now need to apply those same things from a written tete a tete to a physical in person one.

Gilda, may I give you the POV of the random chatter? I am often that person - I will engage a person I don't know, ask questions, etc. And I swear, I mean no harm. See, the extroverted types like moi are often unintentionally difficult. We think we're being nice! I would bet good money - no, GREAT money - that she is seeing a new woman in her area, similar education, similar age range, brand new and can see that you're a bit shy, so she's making the overtures. She's being FRIENDLY.

She's thinking, "Oh, Dr. Nakamura doesn't know anyone yet, hasn't started classes, let me help her get adjusted, let her know she's got an ally to help her with all this new stuff." We see someone who acts like they're feeling out of place or awkward, especially if we're comfortable in the surroundings, and we want to help. That's it. If I see someone with a lost expression in my building, or on the sidewalk by work (we have several buildings next to each other), I'll just stop and ask if they need any help. I have NO ulterior motives, I just like helping people. It's fun sometimes, sometimes I meet someone new and interesting, and I always feel better about my day and my karma. I'd bet she's similar.

Plus, she's probably dying for someone her own age to talk to - maybe she sees you as a relief from the rest of the department. And if she does all the talking and leading of the conversation, then it's EASIER for you - you just have to follow rather than figuring out how to lead the conversation. Maybe she's a little annoying, but she's harmless. And she's going to be a HUGE help at the party, she's already decided to help you. That means she'll introduce you to people so you don't have to figure out who they are, she'll let you know some of the guidelines of how it works there, and she's probably a great person to ask about the dress code for the party.

Don't worry about feeling like you're using her. One, we all use our friends for different things whether we realize it or not. Two, she's offering to be used that way.

Go forth and prosper.

I think this paragraph is one of the most important in all of your posts on this thread. You are letting down your defensive verbal tactic just enough to let us know that you KNOW something's wrong, and that you WANT to change it. You just don't know how. And that's perfectly honest, sincere, and human.. I think most of us can identify with that. :)

Gilda, I admit that I had a hard time knowing what to say when you spent so much energy typing up these involved defenses of your status quo, when it was obvious how badly you wanted to change it.. but since I am also someone who suffers from "paralysis by analysis," I understand that you are puzzling it all out as you go. And that's okay.

Just keep remembering that you DON'T want to be like this. Every time you feel like being defensive, remember that you said you wanted to get to Point B... and defending your status quo will only keep you at Point A. I think you are amazing for starting to tackle these fears... I have some pretty severe phobias myself at times, and it's all I can do to force myself to keep my life "normal" when they are on the rampage. Sometimes I really can't manage it at all.

As for the Chatty Kathy who stopped by your office... it's interesting that you immediately start to wonder about her motives. Motives? Do you think she might be out to hurt you? It 's important to know what's behind your reaction of suspicion. Has she given you any reason to be suspicious? Tell us about that if you can.

In my opinion, she's being friendly. :) I guess I fall on the side of Jess in this sense.. yes, I don't like having random people talk to me when I am in my introverted place, but sometimes I see other people who seem shy, and I want to reach out to them, get to know them, even... BEFRIEND them. :) I have a pretty good feeling that's what this lady is "up to." And yes, she will be your knight in shining armor at the dinner party (which I am so glad you are going to, even though it is terrifying to you now)... she will be the social lubricant that you need to get through the night.

Let us know how it goes, eh? All my best to you.

Gilda,

I have a million thoughts and they all boil down to a declarative: You are the most delightfully, infuriating person I have met in a while! This world would become a better place if you would share more of yourself with it.

I'm back. I survived. It was unpleasant, but it's over and it'll likely be months before I have to anything like this again.

I'm tired. I'll update tomorrow.

Gilda

I can give you a hint about that! She's your friend now. Her motive was: to be friendly.

Dr. ratbastid's prescription: Less Thinking. Your mind does NOT want to leave Point A. Your mind will argue for the status quo. Your mind is NOT your friend. Try listening to it less.

(Incidentally, I'm inspired as hell by your courage in taking this on in your life.)

This is awesome! One of the best posts I've ever seen!

I was going to update regarding the party, but I'm tired once again, after writing about it in my journal.

However,

I'm thinking when I first read this, that's it? Two twenty-minute conversations, and you're friends? That seems too easy. Especially since I contributed so little to the conversations. She probably knows Sissy better than she does me after their conversation Tuesday. Which reminds me, I need to get around to punishing her severely for talking to Dr. KGB about me and telling her all those things I was thinking but was too shy to talk about when I was talking to her.

I had more to say, but I'm tired. Tomorrow.

Gilda

Believe it or not, Gilda, I think it may be that easy. Lots of people would love to be friends w/ someone who listens rather than waits to talk (whether that's what you were doing or not). Sometimes all being a friend takes (at least to start) is being a receptive ear. Maybe you look friendly to her... Who knows. Someone I care about once told me "Get out of your head!" Sometimes it helps not to over-analyze.

you obviously have a higher definition of friends.

for me I have acquaintances, work friends, bar/social friends, friends of friends, and my real honest to goodness friends. Some of them I may not have spoken to in months at any length greater than 5 minutes.

But for my real honest to goodness friends, I hold a high definition and also a decent maintenance for them. It's important that we somehow remain in contact either phone or in person on a somewhat regular time. I fret about my best friend in LA because I only get to spend about 6 hours with him a year if I'm lucky. It makes me sometimes wonder how we can still be best friends.

Friendship DEVELOPS, 22 minutes is just starting point.