Very true cyn... I would say that Dr. KGB is trying to be friendly. She is satisfying the initial qualifications of a "work friend".

I agree with most that has been said about her above... especially the part about her helping you to adjust to your new surroundings. I used to be very shy and still have a healthy does of it running through my brain... I know where you are coming from on this and my only advice has already been said: Don't over analyse things. From what I can see from your journal, Dr. KGB seems to really have your best interests at heart.

" I didn't give my business to a restaurant where, for whatever reason, I wasn't wanted. Another upside: I didn't have to confront them and find out why they didn't want me there, thus being embarrassed at being told directly why I was unacceptable. Was it the way I was dressed, or how I acted, what? On the one hand, it would be nice to know so that I could avoid doing whatever it was that made me unwanted th enext time I was in a restaurant and get good service, but on the other hand, it would be embarrassing to be told directly why I was unacceptable."

This saddens me. As a former 'shy' person(a friend from high school called me 'painfully shy' just recently about those days), I understand the feelings behind it.
It took some therapy and some major re-learning about who I am, with the help of a very tough friend to get to this thought: Sometimes, it just isn't about US.
We have this thought that we're projecting some sort of awful, monster-like persona that repels people and when someone attempts to befriend or help, we attribute it to pity instead of their own need to reach out and be helpful.
Many times we sabotage it, solidifying our false thoughts that we ARE less than worthy.
Please, PLEASE know that you ARE worthy, that people will connect or reject based on their OWN feelings, not yours. No one ever died from shyness, but it does hold back a lot of living. Better to step just a bit over your own line and enjoy than to stand behind it and wonder....take chances, make mistakes and know that with each one, your learned more about yourself than you knew before, not to mention the pride that comes with knowing you did what you thought you couldn't do.

No, she hasen't given me any reason to think she has ulterior motives, that all comes from inside me.

Maybe it's because whenever I interact with someone other than Grace or Sissy, I stop ahead of time to decide what the purpose of the interaction is so that I'll know what the rules are for the interaction. For example, when I asked her directions, in my mind, the purpose of the interaction was to get a specific piece of information from her.

So when an interaction doesn't go as expected, I stop to wonder what thir motive is, how it differs from mine.

The other thing is that my experience has been that letting people in means getting hurt. In my real life, Grace is the only person who has been an exception. My experience has also been that when people are nice, when they compliment or show an interest in me personally, it's because they want something from me.

I get that, and I can see after the fact that that's probably what she was doing. I was trying to report what my thoughts were at the time, to help understand why I behaved and felt the way I did.

Gilda

In a previous post you mentioned minimizing mistakes, unfortunately for social interactions the more mistakes one makes (with no real repurcussions) the more one learns. Examples would be proper ettiquette of silver, glasses, etc. The more you do it the more comfortable you become using them and don't wonder "What's the small tiny fork for???"

My mother in law wonders how I know PCs so well. I know more about PCs because I made more mistakes than the average person. Instead of freaking out like my mother in law does, I turn the machine off and back on trying to figure out what I did wrong to cause the problem.

It's all about experience. Experience isn't just good ends, but also some bad ones. You do have to try to keep the good higher than the bad, that's for sure.

I understand she was being friendly. My question at the time was about why was she being friendly.

Ok, that makes sense. I didn't know people did that. I mean, Grace and Sissy do nice things for me because they love me. Some person I've never met before has no reason to be nice to me unless they're getting something out of the interaction.

I was going to say I don't think we all do that with friends, but I've never had any friends I wasn't related to, so I'd be arguing from a position of ignorance. The closest I've ever come was the guys in my comic club, and one or two of the male teachers at work, but none of them were really friends.

I had Katie for my first 16 years, and that's all I needed. She acted as my confidant, tried to shield me from our parents when she could, and was social enough that we had friends who enjoyed hanging out with us, but it became clear after she died that "our" friends were really all her friends, and I was just along for the ride. I've had Grace for the last four years, or closing in on five now, but we were lovers before we were friends, so that doesn't really count either.

Note, I am not trying to defend the status quo, not arguing with you, just explaining my thoughts on the subject.

How can you tell if someone's being nice to get something from you, and being nice just to be nice? I've been a remarkably poor judge of that in the past. I still don't like the idea of using someone for my benefit, even if they're offering, because then I'd be placing myself in that first group.

Gilda

To paraphrase Homer Simpson: All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with anxiety.

I just wanted to point out that in my previous response, I wasn't arguing with you, I was just surprised that it could actually be as simple as "She seems nice, let's be friends." I've never had a relationship that worked that way.

Gilda

That's the shrimp fork. Shrimp cocktail, second course at Tuesday's dinner. Grace gave me training before the party on stuff like that. I learned the basic rules of etiquette as a little girl, but those were working class Irish etiquette rules, not upper-class dinner party rules, which operate a lot differently.

My solution is to say, "Sissy, I messed up. Come fix this please." And she does. If she can't fix it, we ask Grace. If Grace can't fix it, it's time to reformat the hard disc and reinstall windows, cuz it can't be saved. Fortunately, this has only happened once.

The difference is that I can look up etiquette rules in a book and know what those are, and even then I made a bunch of mistakes Tuesday, like asking the maid to call me by my first name (that one still seems bizarre to me) and asking for a Pepsi. The same is true with a PC. With a person, it doesn't work. I can't go on the internet, do a search on Dr. KGB, and figure out how to talk to her while minimizing mistakes and maximizing the possibility of a successful interaction.

As I'm typing this, I keep wondering, am I arguing for the status quo, or just explaining why I do things the way I do? How can I tell the difference?

Gilda

I'm transferring this from my journal, because it's easier to discuss in an actual thread. I wanted to use the journal to just describe what happened, and come here to analyze why I felt and behaved the way I did:

This is in response to a part of my journal detailing how I messed up talking to a maid. I invited her to call me by my first name and then asked for a Coke or Pepsi. The maid wouldn't call me by my first name, and offered to send out for a soft drink. I tried to switch to water, but Grace gave my arm a squeeze to indicate I should tell the woman what I wanted and let her go.

This confuses me for a couple of reasons. The way I was raised was that you address a superior or someone in a business relationship as [title][lastname] unless invited to do otherwise. The maid addressed me as Dr. Nakamura, and I invited her to call me Gilda. I don't see why her calling me by my first name is impolite after I've invited her to do so, or how this would prevent her from doing her job properly, or why it's anybody's business but mine what she calls me.

That's why I've been debating how much to put into the socializing aspect. I know I'll be a good teacher, that students will enjoy my classes for the most part and will learn the subject matter well, that I'll be able to publish in journals on a regular basis. That should be enough to at least get me to assistant professor without any social stuff. Tenured full professor is the big step. The main advantage of each promotion is less teaching of survey courses and more upper division and graduate stuff, and a smaller class load.

First, it was the third part of the party with the stress of forced interaction and all of the mistakes I'd been making piling up, so anything that goes off script at that point was going to be stressful. Attempting to flirt with me was definitely not expected behavior.

One of the first things that we'd talked about in any interaction was that yes, I was married, to the tall Japanese woman in the black dress. It usually followed closely behind asking about my name. So they knew going in that I was both gay and married, meaning that there was no way in hell they were getting in my pants. Attempting to flirt with me knowing that I was gay is silly, and makes them look a little silly, but it isn't offensive. Attempting to flirt with me knowing I was married is downright insulting, as it implies that they think I'm less than completely faithful to Grace. Questioning my love for my lifemate is an insult no matter how it's disguised.

Do they keep flirting even after they find out you're straight? What would the point of that be?

I disagree on the graduation thing. Graduation is for the graduates. The audience is there to support them.

I don't think I was ungracious. I accepted the toast, raised my glass for the toast (some wit had to make fun of my toasting with a soft drink :rolleyes: ) and accepted. I did turn beet red, which one of the women had to note and make fun of also (I'm very pale, so when I blush, it's very, very obvious), which further added to my discomfort, but I didn't do anything up to that point other than accept the hospitality, even though I would have gratefully crawled into a hole an covered up if I could have.

I was very polite when I declined to have my picture taken. Both times. I explained, again, politely, that I don't like having my picture taken. Why shouldn't matter; if someon doesn't want their picture taken, for whatever reason, you don't take their picture. If anyone was being ungracious here, it was her. Grace is the only one who takes my picture, and even then it's iffy whether I'm ok with in or end up freaking out. I still sometimes get flashbacks even when it is Grace. Having a strange woman take pictures of me with a group of middle aged men standing around watching wouldn't have been just uncomfortable, it would have felt like an assault. Of course there's no way to say that to them, but I shouldn't have to say anything but that I don't like having my picture taken.

Anyway, Grace did manage to extract me without insulting the woman, so it ended ok.

Gilda

As it happens, there was a second party I ended up attending. Grace was scheduled to begin work at the University medical center nest week, but had agreed to be put on call ahead of time. So, wouldn't you know it, she gets called in yesterday and today.

The doctors and nurses there had a little Thanksgiving celebration there, and Grace called me at home this morning and said to come on down and bring something; the ER was dead and she could use some company. And a peach pie. And a goose (all they had was ham and turkey). Fortunately, I had both ready to go, so I popped the goose into the oven early instead of waiting until Grace got home, and made some matching stuffing, and headed off to the hospital (and when I say I did those things, I mean Sissy did them while I bossed her around). Everyone was in scrubs but me, and the other guests, so it was strange mixture of scrubs, casual wear, and a few people popping in from family dinners dressed to the nines. We were going to be around young doctors, so Sissy was wearing a low cut top and miniskirt, and I was in a simple green and brown dress (this one), with mary jane flats. I didn't look nearly as nice, but felt a lot more comfortable.

It was much more relaxed, and a lot more fun than Tuesday night. Grace and I danced a little, my goose was inhaled in about ten minutes, and we got to go visit with some of the kids in the children's ward and play with them.

This is my idea of a party.

Gilda

The simple answer to this? With practice. Those of us who have experience in socializing learn to see the cues that tell us when we think someone is being genuine or not. The way we learn these cues is by, as Cynthetiq points out, making mistakes.

Yep. You have to put yourself out there and try to connect with people. Sometimes those connections will amount to nothing... sometimes great friendships and sometimes... something negative. I can safely say that the negatives are few and far between and that there is a lot of small talk that happens between putting yourself out there and finding friends.

I should also point out that most people learn this behaviour as kids. You are going through it now so it's a bit tougher because most of the people with whom you are interacting are already adept at their tools of interaction (think Tom Hanks in Big when he attends the Christmas party if that helps).

The most important thing, and I know this is probably hard for you, is to just let go. Chat with these people as you would chat with your students. Be the person you are here. Don't worry if you make a mistake. Mistakes are an opportunity to learn (make it a mantra).

What the worst thing that could happen? Someone will laugh? Most times they will think they are laughing with you because they will assume you know the social cue you just tripped over... brush it off and move on. Better yet, learn to laugh at yourself.

The way I learned to cope with my shyness was to do the following... sit back, gage the situation and then jump in with both feet (it's the same advice we give people who are new to Internet forums like the TFP).

Be yourself. Don't over analyze.

Yeah, I read it that way. No worries.

You know, all these "rules" and "scripts" might seem like they keep you safe, but they're actually they're what keep you afraid. Like, if you know all the rules, understand the script and everything goes according to the rules and scripts, then you'll survive the interaction, and if not, you'll literally, physically die.

Maybe there ARE no rules or scripts for social interactions. Maybe there are fluid, mutable contexts, but inside that there ARE no limitations or fixed expectations for how people are to interact. Maybe interactions work best when people just dance with what's occurring in them.

Yes, as do women who flirt with me when they know that I'm married. I wear 2 rings one on each hand so it doesn't matter which culture European or American, you'll know I'm married or have at least deep suspicions. Again, so long as everyone is comfortable in their relationships, there's nothing wrong with it up until there's physical touching in private areas. According to Skogafoss, "Eating is still cheating."

The real answer is because it's harmless banter and discussion. If I was so uptight about "preserving my masculinity" then I'd be stiff and boring around such interesting and colorful people.

Earlier today I was with 2 gay men and a 1 lesbian, along with my wife. We had lots of repartee of gay discussions, and at one point Skogafoss exclaimed to the table, "See 4 of us here like men so you are outnumbered!" I quickly did the math and chuckled as one of the gay men returned from the loo, the lesbian filled him in that my wife had just outed me.

It's just about having harmless fun, that's the point of all social interaction isn't it? Or as you keep thinking that KGB has some ulterior motive is that what I should be on the lookout for? Of course not... I'm out to just have fun and enjoy myself in other people's company to broaden my own horizons and visions of the world.

How in the world could I do that if I just kept to the same recipe each and every single day?

To put things in focus, here's my original statement and your response:

I assume by this that you were thinking that it was only that they were straight, or even primarily that they were straight that bothered me. You did pick that out from among the other factors I listed. Was I wrong in reading it that way? If that's what you are thinking, I must not have been entirely clear.

I thought I had been clear in the original post that it was a combination of stress from all of the events in the party leading up to that part, AND that they were flirting, which all by itself is way off script and thus uncomfortable AND that they knew I'm gay, AND that they knew I'm married.

You picked out the fact that they were straight as the one most important factor. I can understand how you might have gotten that impression, so I clarified in my response that it was the combination of factors, and not any one factor. It wasn't just that the straight guys were flirting with me, it was a combination of that, that I was stressed from the events in the party leading up to that, that flirting is so far off script that it belongs in different scenario altogether, and that I'm married, thus flirting with me is implicitly questioning my loyalty to my wife.

I'd also like to clarify that I'd have had a similar reaction if one of the women had started flirting with me after I made it clear I wasn't interested.

The moment I said,"I'm married to the tall Japanese woman over there," any attempts to flirt with me should have ceased. There are a thousand other conversation topics that would be more appropriate at that point.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Hitting on someone who's married, especially with that person's spouse in the room, and in some cases, your own spouse in, just seems to be in poor taste to me.

What's more, it would be extremely inappropriate for me to flirt with them when I had no intent to follow up on that. I'm not going to be a cock tease. I do not want to get a bad reputation.

I don't understand Skogafoss's comment here.

Had it been "harmless banter and discussion" I'd have been fine. I've tried to make it clear that it was more than that.

Good for you. If that sounds sarcastic, please understand that it isn't intended that way. I'm glad you're relaxed around all sorts of people. I actually envy you in that, as I'm well aware that I am stiff and boring around most other people.

Also, let me point out that the fact that these were straight guys was only a small part of the problem; the main part of the problem was that they were hitting on me knowing that I'm married.

I don't know. That's what I'm trying to learn here. Isn't the point of most social interaction to exchange information?

I sincerely don't expect anyone to behave in their lives as I do in mine. I recognize that my way of dealing with things is often counter-productive in social situations. Have I said something that would imply otherwise?

And I don't think wondering what her motive is is the same thing as assuming she has an ulterior motive. The suggestion has been made that her motive was to be friendly and helpful, and I've said I accept that a couple of times.

I'm glad that you're able to interact with others in a way that fulfills you. If that sounds sarcastic, please understand it isn't meant that way. It's more like envy.

Gilda

So there's no easy way? Just painful trial and error? Dang.

I guess I'll just have to take your word for it. This seems counter to my experience.

As I recall, he really didn't care what anyone thought of him and didn't know the rules, and everyone thought he was strange because of that.

I can't talk to adults the way I would a seven year old. Look at my coversation up there. If I talked to an adult like did the girl up there in post #88, they'd think I was an idiot. Plus, the great thing about kids is that they don't judge. If you're funny and friendly and nice, they like you.

Ah people laughing at me. One of my least favorite things.

I see that that would be a good thing, but I have no idea how to do that.

The first sentence contradicts the second. Analyzing is being myself :).

Gilda

If there are no rules or scripts, how do I know what I'm supposed to do? What am I supposed to learn from interacting and making mistakes, if not the rules for how to interact without messing it up?

Gilda

Let's not worry about that just now.

Instead, can you see that if there are no rules or scripts, you're totally free? That also means there are no consequences for "messing it up". You're free to color outside the lines--just like you did with that little girl you posted about. Can you see that, if you could stand there, you wouldn't need to worry about what you're "supposed to do"?

You should ONLY think about that if you're interested in not being stiff and boring with other people. The rules make you stiff and boring. The rules were made up by that mind of yours, the one that wants you staying at Point A, where it's nice and safe and comfortable, even though you're trapped and miserable a lot of the time. The rules ARE Point A, and that mind is NOT your friend.

This is worth noting: where you are is no fun, right? Yet it's way safer and more comfortable than shifting to anything else. AND it's perfectly all right to stay right where you are--nobody's going to make you change. Hell, nobody COULD ever make you change even if they wanted to.

Somewhere, there's a conscious choice waiting for you to make it. A choice to get out beyond how you know yourself and other people and the world, or to BE the introvert you are for yourself. A choice between giving up everything you think you know in exchange for what might be possible if you gave it up, OR staying exactly where you are, comfortable in the knowledge that you "are" shy, and accepting all the negative stuff that comes with that. In short, a choice between freedom and safety.

Either one is fine, once you choose it. All that's going on here is, either you haven't made that choice yet, or you have, and you're not telling the truth to yourself about it.

Ok, so I need to interact, make mistakes, and learn the proper social cues from those mistakes. So let's look at the mistakes I made at the party, and see how I can avoid making the same mistakes in the future:

1. Mistake: We arrived at 6:00 for a party that starts at 6:00.
Analysis: This, more than anything else, seems bizarre to me. If you actually want your guests to show up at 6:30, why say 6:00?
[Grace answers: Because that's how it's done.]
Solution: Show up 30 minutes late, which is really on time :rolleyes:

2. Mistake: I asked the maid to call me Gilda.
Analysis: This one's easy. Don't ask the servants to call me by my first name. They have their rules to follow, and even if I don't understand them and think they're stupid rules, they have no choice, so I'm doing them a favor by making things easy for them. I wasn't following the script by asking her to call me by my first name.
Solution: Let servants call me by my last name and title.

Side note: It was nice that she called Grace Mrs. Nakamura without hesitation or indication that it was the least bit unusual.

Side note 2: Part of my problem was that the Nakamuras' servants routinely call everyone in her family by the first name except for Mr. Nakamura, and they called me Miss [lastname] exactly once on our first visit, and after I said, "Call me Gilda" they did and seemed more comfortable doing so. The problem was that I was trying to transfer to a formal dinner party in a different subculture. Faulty reasoning on my part, all my fault.

3. Mistake: I asked for a soft drink at a formal dinner party. I then compounded the mistake by telling the maid that she didn't need to send out for some, making her further uncomfortable. People proceeded to make fun of me for walking around with Pepsi in a wine glass all evening long.
Analysis: Pure ignorance on my part, and probably a little bit of arrogance to assume that everyone keeps soft drinks around for a party.
Solution: In the future, I'll just ask for water, which should be a nice safe choice, and which will deprive the other guests of a convenient target for their jokes.

4. Mistake: I told them that I collect comic books, then elaborated on that.
Analysis: I could have walked into the party wearing my Supergirl outfit and not looked like so much of a nerd. Now normally I don't mind being thought of as a nerd, geek, dork, spaz, whatever term you want to use, because, well, I am. But I didn't have to go announcing it to these people, thus setting myself apart from them, showing them how I'm different when one of the goals was to fit in as much as possible. You wouldn't believe the number of times I had to say the same thing twice, as in, "Yes, I really do have nearly 15,000 comic books," or "Yes, they really do make hardback comic books."
Solution: Avoid the subject in the future.

5. Mistake: I introduced myself as "Gilda Nakamura".
Analysis: Half the guys I talked to asked right afterwards, "Is Dr. Nakamura your husband?' I don't get the obsession with using the Dr. title. To be fair, Dr. KGB did warn me about this, and I didn't listen, but it makes no sense. It's a job qualification, not an indicator of status. Grace doesn't ask people to call her Nurse Nakamura or Master Nakamura. After watching the guests I can kinda see what might lead to the assumption. The men tended to mostly be married, some to a woman about their own age, typically in their 40's or 50's, but with a significant number married to very attractive young women in their 20's. In fact, I'd guess I was the only woman in her 20's at the party who wasn't a spouse. Add to that that everyone seemed to assume I was five or six years younger than my actual age, and that according to Grace when she'd introduce herself she was assumed to be Dr. Nakamura until she corrected them, and it seems obvious that this was just a stupid mistake on my part. Dr. KGB was the only other female faculty member under 50 there; she wasn't exaggerating on that one. So maybe it was a fair assumption that I was simply a younger second wife of one of the professors.
Solution: Introduce myself as Dr. Nakamura. Don't try to understand it, just do it.

6. Mistake: I ate my plate of cucumber slices.
Analysis: This is what we do with a plate of cucumber slices at home. How was I supposed to know that they were there to "cleanse the palatte" in between courses?
Solution: Don't eat the cucumber slices.

7. Mistake: I didn't anticipate that guys would try to flirt with me at a dinner party.
Analysis: This still seems to me not to make sense. Why would someone flirt with a married stranger of the wrong orientation for them? I didn't see any of the guys flirting with each other, it makes no more sense to flirt with me after knowing I'm gay. Though puzzling, I don't really find that part offensive. Flirting with a married person I do find insulting, for reasons I've stated before.
[Sissy's analysis]: For God's sake Gilda, how could you not expect the guys to flirt with you? Half of them have probably never even met a lesbian before, and here you are, looking like that, and then you're saying, "I have regular sex with the Asian goddess over there, the one in the low cut black dress and fuck me heels, with the centerfold body which is just as spectacular as you'd imagine, and oh yeah, she's a nurse. Yeah, I know, that's not what you said, but that's what they heard, and that's what they were thinking. Hell, Gilda, some of those guys probably have Grace's poster hanging on their walls at home. if you're at the New Year's party, half the guys are going to be watching you and Grace at midnight instead of kissing their own dates. Telling them you're gay and married to that particular woman wasn't a deterrent, it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. [end Sissy's analysis]
In retrospect, perhaps I should have anticipated this.
Solution: I got nothing. Ignore it, maybe?

I'm tired. I'll see if I can think of more tomorrow. Alternate solutions or interpretations are welcome.

Gilda

edit: ratbastid, I just saw your latest post when I posted this. I'll think about and get back to you.

I don't take your comments as sacarsm, as mine are just a differing point of view for you to glean what you can and make it your own. The point isn't to make you me or me you, but to help each other discover more about life.

actually me pointing out straight/gay as a factor really was not about your point of view but the recievers. Most straight people don't like to interact with gay people for the exact reasons you are stating about what "script" to be on. My example was to highlight how different that conversation was and how other men would have been uncomfortable by the company and then even more so by a comment like that. I'm sorry I was not more clear about that.

Grace is right. This *is* just how it is. Everyone does it so you just adjust accordingly. Nothing to overprocess.

No big deal. Not a mistake worth worrying about. Rather it's something to file away for later. Yes, they are stupid rules. I have problems with servants as well, I am much more likely to want to serve myself. This is one of those "when in Rome, do as the Romans" kind of rules. You were at a special event. Just go with it. This is not a hard and fast rule, as the Nakamura's servants show.


Mistake? Fah! If any mistake was made it was made by your host when they didn't anticipate their guest's needs. You don't drink and would have prefered a non-alcoholic beverage. A good host always keeps a selection of soft drinks handy. As for them making fun of your choice of beverage... fuck them. Seriously. This is where self-confidence is handy. The moment you don't care what they think is the moment it doesn't matter what you are drinking.

This is a choice you will have to make. You are who you are. If they react oddly to the fact that you collect comics, just shrug it off. You can either change the subject or toss it back... It is, after all, thanks in large part to this collection that you have the position at the University. Their ignorance at the importance of pop culture isn't your fault. It's their short coming not yours.

Stick with Gilda Nakamura. If they ask if you are the wife of Dr. Nakamura just reply no, "I am Dr. Nakamura". That would have cleared it up nicely. You look young, people are going to make this assumption. It's no big deal. Don't over analyze it. Eventually everyone will know who you are and it won't be such a big deal.

Ahh whatever. You are at fancy dinner party where the rules are stupid and no one who hasn't been raised or subjected to these things on an annual basis would know what to do... I don't like cucumbers so I would have had an uncleansed palate... big deal. Just move on and don't sweat the little things.

Sissy is right. You are cute. You are a lesbian. You are new. Harmless flirtation is how people frequently show interest. It's only when someone actully hits on you that you should be concerned. Remember, everyone else was also drinking. Alcohol loosens the tongue. They were just being playful. No need to be upset about it.

Let's put it this way... if you were to suddenly warm to the advance and become suggestive in the reverse... 9.5/10 times they would have chickened out. It is just another form of playful social interation. Nothing to be offended by... They are married, they know you are married and therefore it is a safe practice. If they really wanted to hit on you they wouldn't do it at that party where everyone could see. They would get you alone at school and ask you out.


As for your comment on Big... yes, the people did make fun of him but you missed the lesson of the film. He was just himself. He was like a breath of fresh air into that stultified milleu. Eventually he connected with a couple of people who while they still thought he was odd, appeciated him for who he was. AND he was the better man for it... (just forget the part where he becomes a boy again).

What I was trying to say is that, you don't have the years of built up lessons of social interaction that most of us have. Use this to your advantage. Treat this all like one big anthropological study and learn.

Most important... don't worry what other people think. This was and is still my biggest challenge. As a kid who was picked on for much of his young life I am constantly aware of other people and what they are thinking. I have struggled with it but have found that the best way over this is to just not care what they think.

I grant you that if there are no rules or scripts, that would make me free and would mean no consequences. That's a really, really big if, though.

Even people like Sissy and Grace operate using basic scripts and do so within the basic rules of interaction. The difference is that they're able to deal with it when the interaction goes off script, and that's what I want to be able to do.

Well, first, stiff and boring is an easy one. That's just who I am, and I'm just fortunate that my family doesn't care that that's how I am and it doesn't detract from my job performance. I mean, it takes a boring person to write a paper called "Minority Representation Threshold Impact on Self-Conceptualization and the Metaphorical Other in Pictorial and Emergent Children's Literature" (my doctoral dissertation). And yes, the whole thing sounds like that. My students really don't seem to mind, which is probably because the subject matter is so interesting in and of itself that I don't have to be. I'm a good enough teacher that I don't have to be entertaining.

How do I differentiate between the rules of society and the rules I've imposed on myself from within? I know, that seems a simple, obvious question. Grace and Sissy do it without thinking, most people probably do.

Isn't there some in-between area? I mean, a place where I can stay in my safe place at home and at work and in my classroom, and when I'm out with Grace, but where I have access to the tools to deal with an unexpected situation or a situation that requires more assertiveness, or a conversation that goes off the rails?

I mean, I was watching Grace at the party--everyone watches Grace at a party, it's like there's a spotlight following her around--and I could see that she was enjoying herself, and that the other people were enjoying her, and I want to be able to do that. Not the part where everyone is watching me, good grief I don't want that, but I want to be able to enjoy myself at a party, or know when it's time to get up and leave the restaurant and not get upset because I wasn't served, or be able to ask where the vitamins are without being embarrassed about it.

Gilda

I think I'll just go with not bringing it up again. I know that comics can be serious, respectable literature, but if I try to tell others that, all they're going to think is that I'm a big ole nerd (which I am), and there's no way that could be good for my career. It's a shame, though, because it removes one thing I can talk about easily and comfortably from the menu of conversation topics.

And I'll make sure not to bring up the Scrabble thing. See, I'm learning!

Sounds reasonable. If Dr. KGB decides to stop by Monday, I'll run it by her, and stopping in at my office seems to be on her rounds.

So how do I tell the difference between when a guy is trying to get in my pants and when it's harmless flirtation? My experience, which admittedly was mostly as an undergraduate with frat guys, was that they always wanted to sleep with me. I don't want to be a cock tease or get the kind of reputation I had in college.

Thank you! I will definitely be careful to avoid being alone with these guys at school. And I'll be careful to dress more conservatively next time.

Grace said something similar, that she enjoyed the party because it gave her an opportunity to "observe the locals in their native habitat."

Thank you for the feedback.

I'm half hoping Dr. KGB drops by Monday so I can ask her what she thought of the party and see if I didn't make too big of a fool of myself.

Gilda

I don't think it is a matter of not bringing it up at all rather it is waiting for the right time to talk about it. If you are in a room of stuffy Lit Professors who sound more like Charlie Brown's teach than people having a real conversation then you should probably hold back and/or talk like Charlie Brown's teacher yourself.

But if my experience at University taught me anything, there are profs that enjoy their pop culture... you will find them eventually.



There is a difference between frat boys looking to get laid and adults who are flirtatious. The main one being that they are professionals who have reputation of their own to keep. Crossing that line between playful flirtation and making a pass just doesn't get crossed without being damn sure that the flirtation is mutual and there is a desire to pursue... as I said, 9.5/10 there isn't a will to pursue.

The other big difference is that you have made if very clear you are married and a lesbian. Knowing this means they won't cross the line either... Though, it could also mean that more people will in fact flirt as the stakes are *very* low that they will have to follow through on anything.

Honestly, I don't think you need to worry about them unless they actually make a pass at you. Some of them could develop into good friends and/or colleagues.

Nope. Or, at least, not from where you are. ANY step outside your comfort zone looks dangerous to you right now. I'm telling you: your choices are to stay where you are and learn to like it, or do something risky.

Also, re "I just AM boring, and here's the evidence," I just call bullshit. There's no fixed way you "are", as an innate property. You think when you were a week old, your mother held you and said, "Oh, look at my boring child." No. At some point early in your life, you chose boring. At ANY point after that, you can choose something else, if you're willing to overcome the inertia of that first choice.

Edit: I'm not in a good place right now and I shouldn't be taking that out on others.

If I understand you right you see a dilemma where there is none. You have only to learn not to be miserable. If something is inevitable then you have freedom to do what you want anyway. There is no choice to learn, only the speed and ease in which you will.

One koan goes "if you speak, I will hit you; if you don't speak I will hit you." Perhaps you can see that there is no answer to this dilemma, no way out. But that means it is not a dilemma at all! There is no either-or. You will get hit. It is inevitable. And so it is nothing at all. You are totally free to do whatever it is you would do if you had never been confronted by the koan at all. The trick, of course, is to show that freedom.

I Hope that's not too far out for you. I don't want anything from you, only to help.

I hope I don't sound ungrateful, because I do appreciate the attempt to help. I'm not sure I understand how this relates to my situation.

Is the "getting hit" part a metaphor for feeling bad? If so, then I read it like this: If I start taking risks, I'm going to feel miserable because of the attention it draws from others that I dislike. If I don't take risks, I'm going to end up in situations where I feel miserable because of my inability to act. I'm free to stay in my safe place or leave it because either path means "getting hit", ie, feeling bad about my situation.

Or

I'm going to get unwanted attention regardless of whether I seek it out or try to remain in a safe place, so I might as well just accept that and start getting out of that safe place because it isn't really protecting me. I'll still "get hit", ie, feel bad, but at least I'll be more in control of my life instead of letting things happen to me.

Or

I can't stay in my safe place all the time. I'm going to have to venture outside it eventually--that's the "getting hit" part, the inevitable need to move outside myself. Because I have to do this, I'm free to choose to do it anytime I like, and not just let it happen to me.

Is any of those close?

Gilda

Let me try this again without the self pity and arguing.

Obviously I do want to venture out, so I don't know why I keep trying to defend playing it safe. If I didn't want to move out, if I were comfortable where I am, I'd have just said, "Screw the Thanksgiving party, the other English professors and Dr. Departmenthead, I don't care what those people think, I'm just going to stay home where I'm comfortable." But I didn't do that, I went, I took a big risk. It didn't pay off, but at least I can say I tried, and I learned some stuff that I can apply at the next party, if I decide to go, that is. So despite how I keep trying to defend the status quo, my decisions seem to indicate differently.

So let's assume for a moment that I do want to learn how to move out beyond myself, what comes next?

Gilda

didn't pay off? what did you think it was to pay out?

Actually IMO it's paid out in spades... you're deconstructing it with the assitance of others to glean as much information and lessons out of it as possible.

It absolutely paid off... not only are you getting the experience that Cyn mentions above but you also met nearly all of your colleagues in one fell swoop. Despite what you seem to think, I wouldn't be surprised if they found you charming and interesting. At the very least, they met you and know who you are.

I am almost certain:

• that no one saw that you ate all your cucumbers (or cared if you did)
• will remeber in any significant way that you drank Pepsi instead of wine, and if they did they would likely put it down to one of those quirks you file away about people. In other words, if they do remember and ever invite you over for dinner they will have Pepsi handy.
• that any flirtation that may or may not have been enacted in your direction will have been forgotten in the specific and remembered only in that you were someone the found charming and felt warmly towards (as opposed to someone they wanted to actively pursue and bed)
• that no one felt you were nuts, insane or weird because you collect comics. They may have found it a bit odd but then it isn't something they do. They are most likely intrigued because you will be teaching courses around these subjects and they won't (I used to hear all kinds of stories about how English Lit profs would deride my films profs - some of the first in Canada to teach film -- The English profs didn't know what to make of them and felt threatened by their status as the new darling of the department -- this was before there was a Film Studies Department).
• that no one heard your inner monologue as you winced your way through percieved errors (they were to busy worrying about their own faux pas -- which fricken fork am I supposed to use again? -- and worry about who this new prof is and will she make tenure before I do?).

In other words, we are all the same. We all make mistakes, real or imagined, and spending too much time worrying about it can only drive you crazy.

Chalk it up to experience and move on. It is never as bad as it seems.

Well, I think (and, although I haven't said it yet in this thread, this is all just my personal opinion) that you'd do well to start learning some mindfulness techniques.

The funadamental issue here is that your mind runs way with you, draws unwarranted conclusions, makes up rules for you to fail to live up to, and you have no choice but to go down whatever rabbit hole it opens up for you. For instance, the party "didn't pay off", according to that deciding machine in your head. Well, okay, if you're willing to be locked into looking at it like that, then fine. But maybe that's just something your mind decided and you went with it.

Our minds move in certain ways, which we perceive as "thinking". What we're mostly not aware of is this: that noise in your head isn't you. There are techniques you can use to start to get outside your automatic mental churnings and see them for what they are. Right now your "mindfulness muscle" is very weak. There are techniques and practices for strengthening it.

I know of two excellent tools to expand your mindfulness. One is meditation. Ten to twenty minutes a day of sitting will yield amazing results in not very many weeks.

http://www.shambhalasun.com/Archives...kyongJan00.htm - A quick article about how to get started with meditation.
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm - An excellent, and very comprehensive online book on vipasanna mindfulness meditation, called, accessibly enough, "Mindfulness in Plain English". Just reading the first few chapters of this book started transforming how I related to the world.

The second tool I know of is a weekend seminar available in most parts of the world that yields more results for its participants than most people get from months of meditation. I'm a leader in the organization that offers the seminar--a volunteer position, but still--so I won't say much about it here, as that would be uncomfortably close to advertising. Anybody can PM me for more info about it, if you like.

More the first two than the last. Koans are meant to make you think in a different way so there can be many answers. In this case society is either going to hit you while you learn or hit you while you stagnate. You have a false sense of safety when you withdraw (I know because I can be like this too) but youre not really dodging the blow, you will be hit either way. There is suffering in life and you cannot escape it by running away. Once you realize you will be hit there is no longer a reason to worry about it, you can go on and do whatever you want without fear of getting hit, you will have transcended suffering. I don't know ratbastid or have read his links but it sounds like what he says fits in here. You develope a mindfulness and just be.

ratbastid: Thank you for the suggestions. I already practice a form of Zen meditation Grace taught me. I'll look at your suggestions. I know for sure I'm not ready to go on some weekend thing with a bunch of people I've never met. It's just beyond what I'm capable of right now, or at least beyond where I'm willing to go. Sissy has actually been suggesting I go to an assertiveness and/or socail anxiety seminar for a couple of years now.

I'll seriously consider what you say. I'm just not ready for that yet.

Gilda

Good point.

What I meant by "didn't pay off" was that I didn't meet all the goals I had set for the party.

1. Dress appropriately, in a way that blends in without drawing attention.
2. Relax and enjoy myself.
3. Don't do anything embarrassing.
4. Meet people and learn their names and a little bit about them.
5. Learn what the rules are for interacting at a faculty party.

How I did regarding the goals:

1. I looked pretty nice, though I'll probably want to tone it down a bit at the next party.

2. Complete failure at this one. I felt anxious the whole night. I did throoughly enjoy watching Grace and Dr. KGB at the party, as did all of the men there, so I got some vicarious pleasure at their enjoyment.

3. Although the mistakes I made seem small, I was embarrassed by them. That may be due to my attitude rather than anything the other patrons thought; there's no way of knowing, but I felt embarrassed.

4. I met people. I don't remember anyone's name. The guys looked nearly all the same, dark suit, white shirt, red or blue tie, mostly graying hair or balding, mostly with a graying beard. Combine this with a bad facility for names, and I still know nearly nobody.

5. I'm making progress on this one, the biggest positive of the bunch.

Other positives:

I got to get dressed up nice and pretty, something I really thoroughly enjoy. I really enjoyed watching Grace and Dr. KGB, as did everyone except the other young women at the party, so I got some viacarious pleasure through them. I learned something about how to behave so that I won't make the same mistakes again.

So, as a learning experience, I suppose it was a success. But isn't that what we call a failure that we learn from? That it's a "learning experience"?

So, as a learning opportunity, yeah, it was successful. In the other ways, not so much. I 'm not sure how to balance them.

Gilda

edit: I missed the biggie, which Sissy just pointed out to me: I tried something new and scary, and survived none the worse for wear. Now I have to use this same reasoning to get her up in a big roller coaster. Top Thrill Dragster, a 420 foot tall rocket launched coaster, is a walk in the park compared to a party.

Keep in mind that it is difficult to relax when you are constantly on the lookout for how you are failing instead of being present to the experience of the moment. You are "embarassed" waiting to happen, and you are so on the lookout for anything that might qualify as "embarassing" that your perceptions skew that way and you are all but guaranteed to find something to be embarassed about.

It sounds pollyanna-ish, but try being "happy waiting to happen" or "compassionate waiting to happen." That is, you could try to be tuned into another state of being - start keeping score about how many times in an encounter you experience being happy or compassionate or some other characteristic that is positive instead of negative. You're going to find whatever you're looking for, so why not look for something positive?

An example from my own life: The "me" in my head who is not really "me" is convinced I am ugly and people avoid me because I am funny-looking. Don't bother to argue with me; when this is true, it's Capital-T True and nothing you say can convince me otherwise. When I'm in this mindset, at swing dances, I compare how frequently the pretty girls get danced with and by whom they get asked to dance, and if I don't get asked to dance I am positive it is because I'm ugly and who would want to dance with me when they have pretty people around instead. (Never mind that it probably has nothing to do with any of that. It's not always about me.) Anyhow, I saw myself heading down this path on Saturday and instead decided to notice how many times I was musical and was able to improvise to the music with my partner. With my attention on something else, I didn't think about who was dancing with whom, or why. I wasn't thinking about my appearance, I was thinking about being expressive and musical. If I messed up, it was just an excuse to try again. It becomes a game, and a self-fulfilling one. One little positive feedback (a little kick I added to the end of a step) encourages you to look for more opportunities (where can I throw in that slide I learned?), which encourages you to CREATE more positive feedback (look, I threw in that slide and it was perfectly timed!). Bottom line, I had a good time and left hating neither myself nor the pretty girls ;)

Anyhow, it's a good exercise to try controlling your own emotional state.

I'm full of silly exercises like this, but sometimes you have to do whatever it takes to reset your brain wiring.

I didn't think of it at the time as looking for me to be embarrassed, so much as I was trying to monitor what I was doing so that I wouldn't repeat the same mistakes the next time. I was trying to treat the party as a learning experience, because I knew going in I probably wasn't going to enjoy it, and at the same time, monitoring my emotional state as much as I could.

Ah, well I think I was monitoring my emotional state. I did note the moments of happiness, when I was watching Grace and Dr. KGB enjoying themselves and laughing. I really enjoyed that. It's just that there were far fewer of those than the embarrassing ones, the ones when people made fun of me--in one case for being embarrassed, how insensitive do you have to be to make fun of someone whose already so embarrassed that she's blushing? That's pretty much the definition of pouring salt in a wound) and the guys hitting on me, or the horrifying one when Mrs. Departmenthead tried to insist on taking my picture in front of a crowd.

Well, I don't know what you look like, so I can't argue with you, so I'll just accept that your assessment that your view of yourself gets distorted. I know that I tend to envy the girls that have breasts and hips and big expressive eyes that don't disappear into tiny slits when they smile. Like Grace. But I've never had a distorted body view; I've spent a long, long time looking at women both for comparison and for aesthetic appreciation, and I come out somewhere around average most of the time, maybe moderately pretty when I'm wearing the right clothes. I'm fortunately in a situation where how nice I look is of little consequence.

Also, good for you. I don't dance anything fast; I was absent the day they taught graceful.

I'll see if I can remember to try it at the next party.

Thank you for the advice. I'll try it at the next party if I decide to go. I may decide to just use some of that "why care what the others think" assertiveness up front and say no to the Christmas party. I haven't decided yet. I'll also need to think of some positive thing to focus on.

Gilda

This is going way back to the first couple of posts, about the "negatives" you described, as in the awkwardness that you would've had to face had you gotten up to ask a waiter to serve you. Ask yourself this: "What makes me so special that I should be protected from having to deal with these 'negatives'?" You said yourself that if Sissy or Grace were there, either one of them would have been able to handle the situation and get some service. She would've had to face those same "negavites" that you described. Millions of people face these "negatives" every day, so why shouldn't you? What sets you apart?

I don't know if that makes any sense in words, but it makes sense in my head.

Nothing. I don't think I am special and deserving of better treatment than others. I just wanted to be treated the same as all of the others in the restaurant who had been served.

You misunderstand. My point was that they would have known how to handle the situation so as to get service without facing those negatives that were there for me, but I didn't know how to do that.

The negatives that are there for me in that situation aren't there for them. That was my point.

What sets me apart is a painful shyness that makes social interaction emotionally very difficult for me. In my case, it's a severe form of social anxiety. This is what prompted me to start this thread I don't want to be set apart. I know I'm not deserving of better treatment than others. With the exception of my friends and family, I want to fit in and not be noticed, except to the degree that it's necessary to deal with others as a part of their or my jobs. I am thus uncomfortable, very uncomfortable when things don't work the way I expect them to, and I'm forced to deal with other people I don't know, by myself, in a public place.

I am fortunate that I have Grace and Sissy to act as a shield and a conduit to the world for me. They do this because they love me and want to protect me from harm, even when that harm is something I'm only imagining.

Gilda

After reading this thread, I was reminded of a couple of quotes I have collected.

"The reason they say not to care what other people think of you is because people think of you far less than you imagine."

AND

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

When I was in middle school, I was like just about everyone else at that time - trying to figure out who I was and how to make everyone like me. I found that most people will like you for who you are. You just need to be comfortable enough with yourself to show them. If people don't like you, then there is obviously something wrong with them, not you. I genuinely like who I am and this allows me to be comfortable with anyone I interact with. People are drawn to confidence. I think shyness is tied with a lack of self-confidence or a fear of making social mistakes. If you are sure of yourself and accept that everyone makes social mistakes sometimes and that no one is focused on you as much as you are, you'll be much happier. It may surprise you, but there is not a spotlight shining down on you and only you in gatherings, making people focus on you. :)

Well, okay, now you've named it. That's medical terminology you're using there. Maybe a medical approach is in order.

As far as I can tell, nothing cognitive or talking-based is likely to sink in with you. Your view of yourself and your "problem" is rigid, fixed, and self-supporting. Certainly the many-page discussion here has failed to give you access to anything outside your fixed view, despite the genuine efforts of dozens of people.

To be honest--and I've worked with many people on issues this big and bigger--I suspect a biochemical source for this. There are medications and treatments for social anxiety. If you're interested in shifting this behavior, I recommend you look into that.

I say "if" because I'm still not convinced you ARE interested in shifting this behavior. Mostly you seem interested in justifying and defending it. Which is fine--one valid option here would be to proudly BE the introvert you claim to be. Your problem really isn't that you're an introvert. Your problem is that you think you shouldn't be.

I don't mean to appear ungrateful. I thought I had been making some small steps towards thinking more positively and being more assertive. I guess I'm having a difficult time with knowing the difference between explaining how I feel in those situations and trying to justify those feelings.

I realize that maybe finding a new therapist here is probably a good idea. I got the social anxiety disorder diagnosis from my old therapist back home. I've been reluctant to find a new one here because it would mean starting from scratch.

I fully realize that this is a small problem compared to what a great many people are going through, that others have much bigger problems than I do. I'm able to function in most aspects of my life, and being uncomfortable in social situations isn't going to kill me, it's just going to make me uncomfortable. Expecting to be free of discomfort, free of pain, as stilzkin suggests above, is unrealistic. I understand that. But it sure feels a lot worse than that when I'm in one of those situations.

Still, I think I have been trying. I don't know if what I've been doing will have any effect, it's probably far too soon to tell at this point.

Wouldn't it be better to see how this little experiment I've got going turns out rather than taking personality altering medicines before I know if this is going to work? I was reluctant to try them when my therapist suggested them for my depressioin a couple of years ago, because I'm unsure how we can know they'd only alter the one part of my personality that I want to change and not affect the other parts that I like. I'm not rejecting the idea outright, just trying to explain why I'm reluctant to do that.

I am grateful for all the help all the people in this thread have been trying to give me, and I apologize for all of the stubborness and arguing I've done. I know that you're trying to help, and I'm sorry I haven't been listening like I should.

Gilda

Yes, it would. However, the whole problem is that you are spinning your wheels, so to speak, on the entire issue. It's something you've battled for a while, and it doesn't seem to be making much improvement. It might just be the help you need. At the very least, talking to a psychiatrist wouldn't hurt your situation.

Also, if you are worried about any drug effects, you can ask the doctor about them and have your loved ones help monitor your changes. If you don't like them, you could get off of the medicine.

I know that online tests are not the least bit accurate when it comes to identifying psychological problems, but I found my results on this test intersting.

Disorder
Paranoid: Moderate
Schizoid: Low
Schizotypal: Low
Antisocial: Low
Borderline: Low
Histrionic: Low
Narcissistic: Low
Avoidant: Very High
Dependent: Very High
Obsessive-Compulsive: High

Gee, who would have predicted this :).

Dependent and Obsessive-Compulsive haven't caused me any problems whatsoever, it's only the avoidant that's really bothering me.

Toaster: Thank you for the suggestion. I don't think I am spinning my wheels. I've done things and thought about them the last few days in a way I wasn't doing before. It hasn't changed my way of thinking much, but I don't think I should expect fast results. It's a slow, painful process, I understand that, but at least I am trying, a little bit each day. If I don't see any progress, I think seeking professional help and asking about medication is probably a good next step.

Gilda

Gilda,

Let me first say that I really hope you can start to feel better about yourself. I hope you realize exactly what is in this thread and what it means; every person who has posted in this thread (including myself) cares about you and truly wants to help you get through this.

Let it also be said that I make no claims to being a therapist.

However, I see that and I wonder. You say being dependent hasn't caused you any problems. But I've been reading this thread and I've noticed a pattern. You are avoidant; you've even edited posts here, in this forum which is about free expression and intelligent people, for fear of what people would think of you if they read those posts. And then when you were challenged on it you immediately apologized. At which point Grace stepped in to fight for you.

I'm not criticizing. And you certainly have the right to edit your posts if you think they'll be offensive to someone, that's not at issue at all. However, the part that I'm worried about is the motive behind it. If you did it because you didn't want to hurt feelings, then that's perfectly acceptable. But I'm a bit worried if you did it (as I expect) because of what you assumed we'd think of you when we read what you had to say.

Grace, you get a world of credit for doing what you do. You're clearly a very strong, caring and compassionate individual and I want to make sure we're clear on the fact that I take no issue with you for being protective. I do the same thing.

But Gilda, I would posit that you'll never be truly happy with yourself until you learn to stand on your own. I don't think you want Grace and Sissy to fight all your battles for you and I suspect that that's why you started this thread in the first place. You want to be able to have a measure of independence from the people who are close to you. You love them and care about them, but you don't want to define yourself by them. So you're conflicted.

By your own admission, you wouldn't be able to go on without Grace, if for whatever reason she was taken away from you. Do you think that's a healthy way to live your life?

Bottom line is, if you're happy with it, I have no business telling you to change. Just put some very hard thought into whether you are happy with it.

I think I know how you're feeling right now. You're scared and anxious and you don't want anything to do with the things and people that are causing you these feelings. Of course you don't; who would? But that's the tricky part, because the only way to get past these feelings is by going through them. You've been trying to find a way around them for a long time now and it doesn't seem to me like that's been working, so maybe it's time to just deal with them.

And then you come here looking for advice on how and everyone sounds like a Nike ad : just do it! And you read this and you're thinking 'that sounds great, but how?' The idea of putting yourself into a position where you may be in a confrontation with someone is so appalling to you that the ability has become something foreign. It just doesn't seem possible. And you start thinking (again) that maybe you're wrong, that we all have something you don't and it's just something that's wrong with you.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. I only go by what you've given me, so it's entirely possible that I've missed a few things that change this.

Well, there's a few things now that I want to point out to you and one of them really sucks, so let's get that out of the way first. Everyone here is right. There is no way to become more assertive and to be your own person without facing these feelings. There's no workaround, there's no going halfway and there's no support. You either do it or you don't. So that kind of sucks.

The part that doesn't suck so much that you may or may not realize is that you already have the tools to do this. It's all there inside you, it's just all of this other crap is in the way. And you're right that there is no overnight fix and it's not going to be easy, but you'll get there. You're already moving in the right direction. A few suggestions:

When it comes to social interaction, it sounds to me like you have two very good role models who also happen to be people who will do anything for you. So use them! Grace and Sissy sound like very strong, confident people. I would suggest you sit down with them, either together or independently and start by picking their brains. Find out how they do what they do. Find out what was going through Grace's head when you were at the faculty party. Find out how she handled everyone assuming she was Dr. Nakamura. Find out what mistakes or etiquette errors she made and how she dealt with them. Find out if any guys flirted with her and what she did about it. Then do the same thing with Sissy, if you can. Take the time to really sit down with them and find out how they do what they do.

I'm going to suggest you start with Grace on this one for two reasons : first off is because of the love between you and recognizing that she will do whatever she can to help you through this and second is because I'm reasonably sure she's reading this to make sure we don't pick on you too much (hi Grace!). However, if you feel comfortable sitting down with both of them at once, by all means do so.

Another thing to try is this : start telling yourself that you're smart and funny and confident and outgoing and assertive, or whatever other traits you want. Make a poster and put it up in your bedroom. Put a sticky note on the bathroom mirror that says 'I am beautiful and assertive' and read it every day. The trick is to keep telling yourself these things. It's not something Grace or Sissy can do for you, you have to do this yourself. Tell yourself as often as you can that you are beautiful, that you are assertive, that you are confident. The human mind is kind of funny that way; if you continually try to convince yourself that you have those traits, you will start using them and you will be what you want to be. I can tell you right now that you have the ability to be all the things you want to be. Hell, I can tell you until my joints freeze up from arthritis, but I can't make you believe it. I know it's true, Grace knows it's true, everyone here knows it's true. We wouldn't be trying to help you if we didn't think it was possible for you to achieve your goal. Maybe we're onto something, eh? Just keep telling yourself these things about yourself.

In terms of self-defence, I agree with you that it's critical to recognize potential threats. Threat assessment is critical to defensive thinking, but it's only one side of the coin. The part your missing is threat avoidance. You are able to see the threats, but you don't know how to react to them. What you need to do, when you come across a man who could (as you put it) cause you great physical harm if he should so choose, you have to figure out what works for you and how you can protect yourself if he tries. Look for objects and circumstances you can use to your advantage; is it daylight out? Are you in a brightly lit area? Are there people around who would hear you if you shouted? Are there shops or homes that you could take refuge in? Do you have a cell phone, that you could call the police if you had to? Once you start to develop these plans to deal with the threats the anxiety will go away.

If you want proof of concept, think of this; when you're interacting with people while Grace is standing next to you, do you have that anxiety? If not, why does it change? Is it because these people are no longer capable of hurting you, that you've become stronger or they've become weaker? Or is it because you know Grace will protect you if they try?

As for your dependence on 'scripts,' that goes back (unfortunately) to confidence again. You have an idea of how the interaction is supposed to go and if it doesn't go exactly the way you expect it to (which I'm guessing it rarely does), you start to doubt yourself. You're afraid that anything you say may upset the other party, so you have a hard time saying anything. And then you start to wonder if maybe by not saying anything you're upsetting them and you very quickly turn into a nervous wreck.

The problem here is that life doesn't come with a script and the more you try to make one up the more nervous you're going to be when life doesn't follow it. And that's when you start to doubt yourself again. 'That didn't go as planned; it didn't follow my script, so my script must've been wrong. What's wrong with me, why can't I get this right?' The reality of it is that there's nothing wrong with your script-writing abilities. It's not that you're using the wrong script, it's that you're trying to guess what it should be when there just isn't one.

Again, I suggest you go back to Grace and ask her if she uses scripts. Does she try to guess ahead of time exactly how a given interaction will go? Or does she go into it with only a general idea of what to expect and what she wants to get out of it?

It's going to be hard for you to stop doing that, too, because it means giving up a measure of control when you feel like you don't have very much to begin with. The truth is, you have more control than you realize, but you aren't going to be able to access it by attempting to be clairvoyant. the only way to have control is to take it; to realize that you have a choice in everything you do and that is more control than any script could ever give you.

I get the idea that you've been hurt very badly in the past by somebody or maybe by several people. I'm sorry if that's the case; as somebody who was hurt too, I really am. And I'm glad that you're doing your best to get over it. You really have been doing well so far, don't let this novel I call a post discourage you or convince you otherwise.

Feel free to send me a private message if you want to talk with me further.

I would just like to note Gilda's work this week on her assertiveness and overcoming her shyness... detailed in her journal are several good examples of someone who is certainly trying to change and work on her shyness :)

it's a long road to becoming who we want to be... but that long road is taken sometimes with leaps and bounds and other times with small steps... I know that Gilda is capable of both and i'm proud of her for the efforts she is putting forth since this thread was started :)

Sweetpea

I'm sorry for not being up to pace with the rest of this discussion, but I must thank Gilda for starting this thread. Until I looked it over, not only did I not know what an "introvert" was, but I didn't even know I was one myself. I was going to post about it myself, but I found myself thinking and thinking and thinking so much about what I was going to say (funny 'cause it was about me "thinking too much"), I gave up after writing 6 paragraphs and not feeling finished.

I think I'm going to go back and read this entire thread, since it probably discusses a lot about myself that I don't even know.

sweetpea - thank you for saying that. I really hope it doesn't sound like I disagree with you. I think it's great how much Gilda has progressed.

Gilda - I read your journal. I'd been putting it off but now that I have, I just want to say that I'm very impressed at how much you've managed so far. Also, I think you've got a good friend in Sissy; she has some good advice for you.

It'll come. Slowly, but it will.

:( I took that test and got these results:

Disorder | Rating
Paranoid: Very High
Schizoid: High
Schizotypal: High
Antisocial: Low
Borderline: Very High
Histrionic: High
Narcissistic: High
Avoidant: Very High
Dependent: Very High
Obsessive-Compulsive: High

Before I take it all to heart, how reliable is this test?

Before responding, I wanted to say this. I was over at another board for a little bit earlier today. A young woman was there complaining about how unhappy she was with people treating her badly because she was overweight. Several posters tried to help with suggestions about how to lose weight safely and effectively, and she kept responding with hostility and excuses for why she couldn't do any of that. Someone posted that she sounded like she didn't want to change, which was fine, she should just be happy with who she is and not worry about her weight, but if she did want to lose weight she could do it. She just needed to choose one way or the other.

And I saw a little bit of myself, what I'd been doing here in what she was doing. She was unhappy being overweight, but didn't want to do the work it would take to fix it, she just wanted to whine about being unhappy, which was part of what was causing her to be unhappy.

I really don't want to be that person, who whines while never doing anything. I am unhappy with my inability to function when by myself in an unfamiliar social situation. I know that. I am trying to do better on that front, less complaining and more action.

I realize that, and I very much appreciate the feedback I've gotten.

Except for Grace fighting for me, that's all a fair description. Grace doesn't have an account and doesn't post here, and doesn't read anything here unless I ask her to, which I generally don't do. She was gone for most of the first week this thread was in progress.

I'm not sure what the difference is between the two things you list here.

I deleted my posts because I was embarrassed by what I'd said there. That's probably more the second one.

I passed this on to her, and she says thank you.

I don't want my whole identity to be defined by my relationship to them, and it isn't. I'm an excellent teacher, and I have an active presense here. Those parts of my life are mine.

I do want to define myself in part by my relationship to them. Grace's wife and Sissy's sister are both important parts of my identity, thos are things I'm proud of, and I don't want to give that up.

I am happy with the part of my life that involves Grace and don't want to be independent from her. It's only the part of my life where I have to be assertive on my own that I have problems, and that's the part that I want to work on improving.

I don't know if it's healthy or not. I do know that the part of my life that involves Grace makes me happy, and it's only the parts that don't involve her where I'm unhappy.

Do you think that my dependence on Grace for protection and support is part of what's caused me to be so ineffectual on my own?

That sounds reasonable.

So far that's a fair assessment.

Yeah, it does. Again, I agree.

I'll ask Grace tomorrow. Sissy wasn't at the party, it was faculty and spouses only. However, I have run most of this by Sissy, and she's been helping me with some exercises she picked up in therapy and in Al Anon.

I think you must be confused about something, but I'm not quite sure what it is. Grace isn't a member here and doesn't read or post here. I can show her this if that would help, though.

I do have a question, though. Isn't getting help from Grace and Sissy being more dependent on them, not less? I'm fine with that if it'll help, but earlier you seemed to imply that my dependence on Grace was part of what was holding me back, and now you suggest I go to her for help, when I was trying to do it without her help before. I'm confused.

This is almost identical to something Sissy has had me doing for most of the past week. It's had little effect so far, but I know I saw it work for her when she first started high school (with a different issue in her case).

I don't care about beautiful or funny. I know I'm not, but I don't have a distorted image of those things, nor do they bother me. I know I'm average looking, and I know I'm a bit dull, but I'm actually pretty cool with that, as being better looking or more entertaining aren't really goals that are important to me. I don't think if I were beautiful and funny it would make me happier than I am now.

However, I have been doing this with confident and assertive, and though it hasn't made a difference yet, I'm hopeful that it will.

Well, this is easy to assess, as pretty much every healthy adult male on the planet fits that description.

That makes sense. Androphobia is another thing I've been working on. I've gotten past the hating men part of it, but the fear of men part still lingers. I carry a cell phone at all times.

The last one. Grace is tall, very strong for a woman, and a highly skilled martial artist. She's only had to physically intervene on my behalf once, but boy howdy did the guy who had his hands on me in an aggresive manner live to regret that. The guy who felt me up in a hobby store a couple of months back would also have regretted it greatly had he done it with Grace nearby, though I seriously doubted he'd have done so. I have no doubt of my physical safety when she's nearby.

That's it exactly.

Ok I'm trying to say this without arguing.

Certain interactions operate the same way the vast majority of the time. For example eating in a restaurant. You enter, the host seats you, a server takes your order, brings you your food, you eat, you pay, you leave. That's the way it almost always works. That's what I mean by a script.

I was about to say we all do that all of the time with all kinds of interactions, but maybe that's my problem, the assumption that that's the way everyone does it. Is there not one standard way of getting food in a restaurant, or paying for groceries at the grocery store, or renting a movie, etc. that most people follow? Or does everyone do it differently, and I've been expecting others to just follow my script unreasonably?

I hadn't considered that before, the idea that there is no standard way of doing things. Damn, that's a scary concept.

I'll do that.

Ok. I'll just have to accept this at face value, because it seems counter-intuitive to me. More planning has always seemed like a the best path to success to me, and usually works.

You needn't worry about that. You've been very helpful. I'll talk to Grace tomorrow morning. There are one or two things I'm still not quite clear on, but it's late, so I'll just sleep on it tonight.

Gilda

It isn't at all reliable. Consider it just for entertainment purposes. Only a professional can really diagnose any of the psychological disorders listed there.

And by the way, if any of this has been helpful to you, that alone makes it worthwhile. I'm sorry I deleted a bunch of posts that might have helped to illustrate my thinking, for whatever help that might have been.

Gilda

The difference goes a bit like this. If you're deleting them because you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, you're doing it for someone else. You're thinking that what you've said may be harmful to others, recognizing that and remedying it. If you're doing it because of what we may think of you, it's a bit different. You're second-guessing yourself and can't decide if you're saying the right things, so you decide that it's better not to say anything at all. It's a bit like what happened with Dr. KGB when she approached you, only slightly different because with a posted message you can go back and erase what you've already said.


I agree that you don't want or need to be completely independent of her. And ultimately, it comes down to what I've said before; if you're happy with where you are then you don't need to change anything. But I get the feeling that you're not.

You have parts of your life that are your own and parts that aren't. Everybody does, there's no way that Grace can be involved in every aspect of everything you do at all times. But the problem comes outside of those situations when you feel like you can't manage without her. I don't think you want to depend on Grace the way you do. It's okay to give yourself to her, but you have to have your own strength as well. Is that a bit more clear?

In short, yes. I'm not saying you can't depend on Grace. As John Donne so eloquently put it, "no man is an island, entire of itself...". You should absolutely have people in your life who can lend you strength when you don't have enough of your own. But when she's always protecting you, when you can't function unto yourself, it becomes too much. You start relying on her totally and have trouble doing things without her. You have your areas where you're confident, but that you have trouble asking for directions on your own... well, I see that as a problem. I think that you're asking for help means you agree.

When I mentioned Sissy, I meant in a more general sense. She doesn't sound like she has any problem standing on her own feet. The party is a good example, but there are likely other situations where Grace and Sissy are able to do things alone that you can't. They have that ability to approach people with confidence and assertiveness that you don't seem to have right now. It's in you and you can use them to help bring it out. Find out what they do that you don't.

I was confused and I apologize. I was operating under the impression that Grace had an account here; I'm not sure where that came from. I'm sorry about the misunderstanding. In any case, whether or not you show this to Grace is your decision. I certainly don't think it would hurt anything for her to know where and how you're getting support, aside from her and Sissy. And she may be able to help you interpret the things said here and put them to work for you.

Again, i'm going to try to clear this up. It's absolutely okay for them to help you. They may be able to offer insights that I don't have and that is going to be invaluable. You have to remember that even though I may seem to have a good handle on the situation, I don't really know you. I don't know anything about you except what you've chosen to give me; I have an incomplete picture. The picture that Grace and Sissy use is much more complete, therefore they may be able to see certain issues and motives in the things you do that I can't. Also, they're using the tools that you're not and just as we can help you to figure out how to use them, so can they.

You can accept support from them and help from them. There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with anything you're doing, for that matter, except that you want to change the way you feel. It ultimately comes down to you; it's up to you whether or not you're happy with who you are and if you're not it's up to you to change. Everyone can offer you assistance in doing that, but it's ultimately you who's doing the work here. Using Grace and Sissy as sounding boards and sources of insight isn't the same thing is relying on them to do this for you, because ultimately they simply can't.

Let me know if you need me to clarify that further and I'll try.


This is what I'm referring to above. You're taking Sissy's advice and experience and using it to help you make the changes you want. Sissy can tell you your positive traits until her face turns blue, but she can't make you believe it. You're the only one with that power. It doesn't mean she can't help you find the ability.

As an aside, I can't put into words how happy I am that you have Sissy. I know I've said this before about both Grace and Sissy, but I don't think I can mention it enough. What you have there is incredibly powerful and it's going to make this journey easier for you by an order of magnitude. They both deserve a world of credit, as do you.

Don't sell yourself short. You truly are beautiful. I'm sure if we ask them, all the men and a great many of the women of TFP will line up behind me to say the same. So will Grace and so will Sissy. So will Dr. KGB and all the men who were flirting with you at the party.

It's important that you see that, too. Thinking of yourself as plain is just another symptom of your lacking the confidence you want. I don't know a lot about your personality, I used funny as an example. I do know that you strike me as sincere, kind, honest and hardworking. All of these are positive qualities you possess and it's going to help you immensely to believe in yourself if you can see them. When you have a negative thought, you'll be able to come up with a positive counter. "So what if people think it's strange that I collect comics? I know that I'm intelligent and beautiful and if they can't look past a hobby of mine to see that, it's their loss."

It will. It takes time, but it will.

None of this is going to be easy. I wish I could tell you it would, but that would be a lie and I think we both know it. The key is going to be recognizing the negative or harmful thoughts and being able to counter them with positive and helpful ones. Eventually you'll gain the confidence you want and the negative ones will be highly diminished. I'm coming up with as many examples of positive thoughts as I can think of, but this is by no means an exclusive list. This, again, is why I've suggested going to Grace and Sissy. They'll be able to help you find those positives.

Precisely. When Grace is around, you feel protected. You know that you have a way out, so the nervousness disappears. This is what I'm trying to show you; if you always have a way out you won't have to be so nervous when you're approaching men. At first you'll have to consciously stop and develop an exit strategy, but eventually it will become as much second nature as the threat assessment you're already doing.

I'm sure I've recommended it before, but I'm going to do so again in case I haven't; try looking into a self-defence course. What I'm saying right now is actually a small part of a women's self-defence course that an old friend of mine taught. He was a champion martial artist (I can't remember which discipline right now).

Definitely argue if you think there's a flaw in what I'm saying. I want you to understand fully everything that I say. I will be very forthright and tell you that there is nothing that you can do or say right now that will insult me or cause me to think poorly of you; you're learning as you go and I'm not going to leave you high and dry while you're doing it. In fact, I'm very much in awe of you. You're taking it upon yourself to recognize a part of your life that you don't like and take steps to change it. I realize that this probably doesn't seem like that big a deal to you, but it takes a sort of courage that not many people possess. So go ahead and say what you want to say to me; you can't go wrong.

As to the rest of it, you have to remember that even though you come up with these scripts and it seems like common sense that everyone would follow them, nobody knows them but you. Were I to meet you on the street and were you to ask me for directions, I wouldn't know exactly what you expected me to say. I'd know that you wanted me to help you and that I'd want to help you and that's about the extent of it. I would know that you're uncomfortable because I'm good at assessing people's moods and I would also know that you've ben hurt. I would probably want to show concern and do my best to put you at ease. Had I the time I would probably even offer to escort you to your destination, which having the insight I do from this thread I suspect might cause you to panic. I would do all of this because I don't have your script. I don't know that all you want is for me to give you the directions you need and leave you alone.

Or, we can use the restaurant. Actually, that's a very good example. Normally, it works more or less how you describe it, but not always exactly. Your experience at Denny's is a prime example of that. The servers for whatever reason didn't follow your script. Where Grace or Sissy or myself would've simply stopped a server and asked to be served, you panicked. The reason for that is because I don't follow a script for these interactions, which allows me to be flexible. When it doesn't go exactly as planned I can change my own behaviour and interpretation to reflect the new scenario and act accordingly. By following a set script you deny yourself that flexibility.

I can guarantee you that had you stopped a member of the waitstaff and politely reminded them that you hadn't been served you would've had an apology and someone there to serve you almost immediately. The reason I can be so confident is that I know what the waitstaff were expecting in that interaction. They wanted to serve you so that the restaurant would make money so that they would get paid. And they wanted your tip too; a small tip is better than no tip at all. Do I know exactly what they were thinking? Of course not; it would be a remarkable feat if I did. But I know what they were expecting and I know what I as a customer would expect. By understanding what everyone wants in the situation I can work towards our mutual goals without having to follow a set pattern of behaviour.

This next bit is going to sound a bit harsh and I'm going to apologize in advance. The fact is, you are being unreasonable. You write your scripts according to your frame of reference, your view of the world. You have a unique way of looking at any given situation, just as we all do. No two people experience the world exactly the same way. We all have our own method of interpreting based on our own past, our own feelings, our own mentality. The waitress who was meant to serve you had a completely different take on the world. Maybe she missed you because she was busy and didn't see you in the corner. Maybe she made the assumption posited above, that you as a young professional would ask for assistance if and when you required it. Maybe her pet dog died right before her shift and the stress was preventing her from focussing on the task at hand. Or maybe she just saw you and didn't like you (this one is highly unlikely). It's impossible to know, because neither you or I are her. We can't see the world through her eyes. And when you expect someone to follow a set pattern, you're assuming that they're going to interpret things in a way that isn't necessarily given. They may not see the world the way you do or the way you expect them to.

Planning can be helpful in the proper circumstances. There are areas in life where planning is a good way to achieve your goals and there are areas where it is absolutely essential. Can you imagine trying to go through graduate school without planning when you were going to go to class, when you were going to study and when you were going to work on your dissertation? It would have been nearly impossible. That's an area where planning things out is the key to success. But when it comes to other people's behaviour, you can't plan. You don't have any certainty of how they're going to react. There's a whole plethora of circumstances that seem important to that individual that you know nothing about. And when you try to plan for it and it doesn't go as expected you cause yourself a lot of stress. If you can learn to work 'on the fly' so to speak and not plan each exchange in detail you can eliminate that stress.

It's okay to know what you expect to gain out of an exchange and it's okay to make a guess at what the other person expects. But you can't accept that guess as fact.

By all means. Definitely use Grace and Sissy to your advantage, but do it on terms that you're comfortable with. And I'd say you've earned a good night's sleep for yourself.

I hope I'm not being too forward in telling you that I'm proud of you for the steps you've taken so far. You really are showing a lot of strength already and doing very well. I will offer you all the guidance I can to help you continue to move in the right direction.

Good luck and goodnight.

Thank you for the compliment. I know I'm smart and hard-working, I have no problem with believing that, and I try to be kind and honest as best I can. Though a little dissatisfied with certain aspects of my physical appearance, such as being flat chested and too thin, it's not something that causes me problems. I'm not looking for a mate, and being attractive is irrelevant to my job and for the vast majority of interactions. I'm sure I have a very realistic handle on how attractive I am. Of course Grace and Sissy tell me they think I'm beautiful, they love me and want me to feel good about myself, so they have to say that. I think I'm able to be more objective about it.

I asked Sissy about this, as she's in roughly the same situation physically that I am, ie, little to no physical threat to any healthy male. She said she assesses the situation, not the individual, and I'm mistaking possibility for probability. For example, at a party or asking directions in the hallway on campus, sure it's possible for a large man to hurt me, but the probability of being hurt is negligible. She also said that by engaging people in conversatiion, they stop seeing her as an object, and start seeing her as a person. It's harder to hurt a person than to damage an object. She also said that it's sort of automatic. She doesn't size up every male as a potential threat in situations where the situation is safe unless they do something to set off her "danger radar," and the vast majority never do.

And that's what struck me as the important part to me. Every guy is setting off my "danger radar" regardless of the situation. So maybe what you suggest here will help: Think of what I'd do if I were attacked in a particular interaction with a man. The answer is usually going to be to run. I'll see if that helps.

Comp 101: This is called the "If one, then all" fallacy. The way I think is the way everyone thinks. I've been defending it for about four pages now. I see that intellectually, but it still seems counter-intuitive to me.


Ok, that makes logical sense. But if I don't plan what to say and do, how will I know what to say and do? How would I know how long to wait before asking for service?

She said she enjoyed it. She enjoyed the little bit of embarrassment it caused them when she corrected them, and it gave her an opportunity to brag about me.

She said she probably mad a half dozen little ones, just like I did, but wasn't keeping track of them. The key, she said, isn't not making errors, it's adjusting to it and moving on. The only major etiquette error she saw at the party was when Mrs. Departmenthead tried to insist on taking my picture after being told no twice, and I didn't make any big ones.

The only things that I should consider "mistakes" are those things that caused a disruption or brought shame on myself, and I didn't do either. The people making fun of the comic books or Pepsi weren't making fun of me, they were enjoying me as a person and most likely like me better because I made the party more interesting for them.

She said flirted with them and did so because it's fun.

The "how" part was more difficult. They told me it's not a matter of knowing what to say, you just play off of what the other person says, and have one or two interesting things to say yourself, and that I have those things with my accident and my comic books and stories about my students and all of the things I share with them when I come home from work.

Which makes sense, but really doesn't help me in knowing wheich things to say when, or in knowing which stories will be interesting and which ones boring.

I think the main difference is just that they enjoy the interaction, while I see it as work, something I have to do. Which makes it a kind of catch 22. They enjoy it because they're relaxed, they're relaxed because they're not worried about what to say, and they're not worried about what to say because they enjoy interacting with other people.

So though it makes sense, it seems to say that I'm not enjoying the interaction because I'm not wired that way.

So how does one flirt when it isn't with someone you are, want to be, or intend to be sexually intimate with? I've always kinda thought of flirting as verbal foreplay, a way of saying, "I'm interested in you." Which would make it a lie if I were to do it with anyone but Grace, it would feel like I was being dishonest to her and to them on some level. I don't know how to reconcile that with Grace flirting. It doesn't bother me in the least because I know she's coming home with me.

This is draining just thinking about it. Thank you for the feedback, it is much appreciated.

Gilda

Sissy and Grace could have an ulterior motive. What do I have to gain? Or any of the people here who've told you the same?

It's human nature to let our flaws grow out of proportion in our own mind. For most of my life I'd look in the mirror and see a scrawny guy with glasses; I'm tall and thin and the spectacles bother me to no end. I could never get my hair to do anything that I thought looked halfway decent. It was only after I moved out of my mum's house and started getting dates that my view started to change. I began to wonder what these girls saw that I didn't. And I began to put those flaws in proportion.

I also did what I could to minimize my perceived flaws, but we'll leave that for another discussion as there's not much that you can do about the things you mentioned.

How many girls do you think there are who'd call you crazy for thinking you're too skinny? How many girls do you think there are out there who have back problems and wish they had a smaller chest? These things are big flaws to you, but there are others who not only don't see them as flaws, but see them as desirable.

If you take a quick peek in Sexuality (or even the Titty Board, for that matter) you may notice that everyone seems to have a different ideal. Nobody is going to be universally attractive to everybody, but there are some people who would cause even those who aren't interested in them to say 'she's attractive, but not my type.' As you're not my type, I feel fully comfortable in telling you that you are one of those people.

There is a reason I'm stressing this. Your self-image has a huge effect on your self-confidence. If you can see yourself as beautiful, you'll be able to use that to give yourself a boost in social situations. You'll see why guys want to flirt with you even when they know they don't have a chance, or why a random stranger would show concern over injuries you've sustained (I know the ethics of being more concerned over an attractive person than an unattractive person are a bit distasteful, but that's a can of worms for another discussion). It will make you feel better about yourself. Turning it around, it seems like a big part of why you were as comfortable with Dr. KGB as you were is because you think she's good looking. It goes both ways.

There is being realistic, but pessimism does not equate to realism. It's hard to see that, I know it, but it's true. Accept that you'd like to be a little curvier and accept that you're attractive as you are. After all, a bombshell like Grace could have just about anyone from the sounds of it. What made her choose you, initially? There must be something there, right?

Sissy gave us some valuable information here, but I'm going to try to give you a different way to interpret it.

An exit strategy isn't what you would do, it's what you could do. If you think 'if he attacks me, I'm going to run' you're missing a very important part of the process, because you're limiting yourself to one option. All that will do is displace the anxiety (instead of 'what if he attacks me?' it'll be 'what if he outruns me?').

The missing link here is taking stock. We'll use the man you asked for directions from as an example. You didn't describe your surroundings, but that's not really important for me. What I'd like you to do is go back to that situation now and we'll deconstruct it a bit. Think about what was around you and how it might've worked to your advantage. Was there anybody in earshot? Any busy intersections nearby? How about traffic? Any businesses or homes that were occupied, that you could've taken shelter in if necessary? Was it daylight out? Was the area you were in brightly lit? Was there anything like a wooded area or park nearby where you might've been able to escape and cause him to lose sight of you? Was your cell phone readily available (ie, in a pocket where you could grab it quickly instead of in a purse where you might've had to dig for it)?

Once you start looking at the options you had available to you, you'll realize that he wasn't much of a threat after all. Although physically stronger than you, as the aggressor (especially against a woman) he would've had anyone in the area to contend with in addition to yourself and that tilts the odds strongly in your favour.

Sissy also raised an excellent point about engaging people in conversation. It's true that if you give a person a little bit about you, even just your name, it becomes much harder for that person to objectify you. You become real, so to speak; you cease to be a nameless stranger much the same as Dr. KGB ceased to be a nameless stranger once you knew her name. She suddenly became a person, although this is so ingrained that you may not realize it's happening even if you look for it.

She said it's automatic; to me that says that she does think this way, but that it's so ingrained for her that she doesn't even realize it. Her 'danger radar' is a sign of exactly this sort of thinking. She assesses an individual as a potential risk based on who he is and where they are and if the risk from him is negligible she doesn't give it a second thought. Hell, she doesn't give it a first thought, even. It happens in the background. It's only when the assessment comes out as a potential risk that the flag is raised and she starts taking a more careful look at her surroundings. Over time, you will develop that as well, but it's not something that comes naturally to you. So you'll just have to exert that extra bit of effort to get a handle on it, is all.

Of course it seems counter-intuitive, because it's not how you think. Something intuitive is simply something that's more or less in line with the way our mind already works.

Let's give it context. I'm something of a DIY mechanic and my sister recently called me because her car was running rough. She said she'd talked to another fellow about it who'd told her that he thought it may be an idle speed issue, a common problem with her type of car. But when I asked her what her car was idling at, she couldn't tell me. To me, it seems unnatural not to know, as idle speed is an indicator of a lot of problems with the engine. I could tell you in my sleep that my engine idles at approximatley 950 rpm cold and closer to 750 rpm hot. She has no clue. It's not intuitive for her to monitor that. What's intuitive for her is to call me.

Or put another way; I ride motorcycles and the control scheme on them is completely different from that in a car. But when I'm on a bike, I don't have to think about how to ride it any more than you have to think about how to drive your car; it's intuitive to me, but it would very probably be counter-intuitive to you. Were you to take a course, get your motorcycle license and start riding, it would in all likelihood become intuitive.

I'm sorry Gilda, but I can't give you those answers. You have to find them for yourself. The simple fact is, no two situations are identical. The best I can give you is to say that you ask for service when you begin to think that you may have been overlooked and that you'll know what to say when it comes time for you to say it. That's not to say you're never going to say the wrong thing; it's the human condition, after all. But you need to accept that and go forward anyway. You need to stop trying to control everything and just take it as it comes.

Unfortunately, I can't tell you how to do that, but I promise that as long as you continue to work on this it will come eventually. It may come as a big epiphany or it may develop so gradually that you don't even notice it, but it will come.

Grace has given you a wealth of information here; let's see how we may be able to interpret and apply it now.

She said she enjoyed that bit of embarrassment it caused them and she liked being able to brag about you. I know it seems outlandish now, but as you begin to build up your own sense of self-worth, you'll enjoy bragging too. You'll want to share your accomplishments and take pride in what you've done and who you are. That's perfectly acceptable. You have accomplished a lot and you have every right to be proud of it.

What she said about making errors is absolutely key and it ties in nicely with everything else. Accepting that you will make errors, that they're not a big deal and moving past them will allow you to relax, which will decrease your anxiety a hundredfold. Dr. KGB has informed you that you were a big hit at the party; given that, is it that big a deal in retrospect that you ate your cucumbers or asked for soda? In fact, the soda wasn't even your gaffe; I'm very surprised that a party such as this wouldn't have non-alcoholic drinks on hand. It seems not only to be a social flub to me, it seems irresponsible. But again, that's a discussion for another day.

I'm guessing the next paragraph comes from her. If I'm wrong I applaud you, as that's exactly the type of thinking you want.

I'll share with you how I deal with those sorts of errors on my part. I start by allowing myself a moment of self-doubt and panic. I give myself the liberty to have that internal 'oh shit' moment while keeping a calm exterior. Then I take stock of my situation; is anyone paying attention to me and what I just did? Does anyone seem perturbed about it? If nobody does then I can continue on my way. After all, even if it would've been a big deal had somebody noticed, a gaffe unnoticed is a gaffe unmade. If, on the other hand, somebody does seem bothered by my error, then I now know and can take steps to recover. I can offer apologies and amends and therefore correct the error. Either way, I have a system in place to deal with the issue if it arises and therefore I don't need to cause myself continual stress.

This may work for you or it may not. It's okay if it doesn't; remember that I have my own way of looking at the world, which is in all probability very different from yours.

Be careful with the flirting thing; that Grace and Sissy enjoy it doesn't mean that you have to. If it doesn't interest you or sets off your conscience, then don't feel like you have to do it. However, what they said is a perfect example of how you can approach a social interaction. You know you have some interesting subjects, so you know that you have something to offer in a conversation.

Note that the word 'interesting' is subjective; you can't know for sure if something is going to be interesting to an individual or not. Comics are a good example; you can go to wherever you buy from and talk comics with the guys there all day long, because you know it's a shared interest. With the rest of the world, it's a bit less certain. There are people such as myself who may take a passing interest in the subject but don't collect or follow storylines very closely and there are others who have no interest in the subject at all. You don't really know how someone will react until you bring it up. If you begin to see that the individual you're discussing the topic with isn't interested, then you can know that that's not something for them and allow them to redirect the conversation.

For the time being, I'd suggest allowing the other individual steer the conversation for the most part. I read about your interaction with the young girl at the place you volunteer for and you showed an amazing skill there; without thinking about it or wondering what the proper thing to say was, you mirrored her. She mentioned an injury, you mentioned an injury. She mentioned her hair, you mentioned your hair. It was done in jest, but that skill can be applied to nearly every conversation you have. Take what the other person says to you, look at how you can relate to it and share that. It will allow you to connect.

You're an educator, which means that you probably have the skills necessary already. It's not even a question of developing them, because the things you're trying to do in your day-to-day life are almost cerainly things that you do in the classroom without even thinking about it. A big part of teaching is knowing how to make a subject interesting and most of that is knowing how to read the interest level within the class and change tactics accordingly. You may not agree with me, but I suspect that when you're teaching you find that no two sessions are exactly alike, even if they cover exactly the same subject matter. You interact with the class, gauge their reaction and compensate for it.That's exactly what you're trying to develop outside the classroom, although you may not realize it because in class it's so natural to you that you don't even notice you're doing it.

Don't for one second think that you have to be a social butterfly. I suspect that one thing we have in common is that we'd both prefer to curl up with a good book rather than go out to a big party. It's okay to be a quiet person who doesn't want or need that. The part that you're getting into trouble with is that your aversion to social situations is currently so strong that you end up with a lot of stress and anxiety over these things. That, needless to say, is less than desirable.

I'm glad to see you're letting Grace and Sissy help you with this; it really does look like they're going to be able to give you a lot of really valuable insight.

As you've rightly pointed out, if it were easy it would hardly be worth doing. It's a challenge, but it's a worthy one.

Be careful not to overdo it, either. You have to give yourself the time to relax and not worry about it too much. Burning out on this is not going to help. You've done a lot of good so far and you've put a lot of hard work into it; don't be afraid to give yourself a weekend to stay in and not think about all of this.

It seems I always end up writing these great long missives for you. I apologize; I'm trying not to give you too much at a time, because it's a lot to digest and you do want to take your time with it. I just tend to get a bit carried away and write more than I plan.

In any case, you're very welcome to the feedback and help I'm providing. It really is it's own reward.

Wowowowowoowow! Errrm sorry, I mean, awesome post :thumbsup:

While I was previewing this, Sissy wandered by and asked me if I'd mind if she read it and gave me some feedback. I've included her responses where relevant.

I accept the compliments from the people here, I just happen to disagree with them. Other than being unusually thin, I'm fairly ordinary looking.

[Sissy: I don't have any ulterior motive. You're an absolute babe. I say that because it's true, not because I love you.]

I don't know of any woman who wants small breasts. I'd kill for b-cups, nothing gigantic, but at least enough that I needed a bra for more than just jogging.

Thank you.

I went back and forth on this with someone in Coming Together a couple of months ago. I really don't believe that physical attractiveness has much to do with social interaction except when there's some sort of sexual thing going on.

[Sissy: You're wrong. There's research that proves that people do tend to sympathize more with attractive people than with unattractive people. You don't, I get that, you tend to look for misfits because that's how you see yourself, but most people aren't like that. Also, you're doing the same thing, but in reverse. You're assuming the better looking, more accomplished people are less in need of your sympathy and understanding. You need to realize that most people look at you and think the same thing.]

I do. I really don't have a problem with my body image. I'd like to be more attractive, who wouldn't, but it doesn't bother me to be ordinary looking. I don't need to be attractive because it's pretty much irrelevant to my life now that I already have a mate.

Personality, intelligence, work ethics, and shared values. And I am a world class, strike that, Olympic class practitioner in the art of pleasing a woman sexually. That's not bragging, just an accurate observation :).

She was initially attracted to me when she was a student nurse at the school where I taught and she observed some of the family planning classes I helped teach.

Probably, but I don't remember anyone.

We were in the corridor of school building. Nothing of that sort available.

Yes to both.

Nope.

It was in a cell pocket on the outside my purse. I don't carry it on my belt or in my pocket because I don't like how it ruins the line of my outfit. What does this have to do with safety? I mean, I know it's important to have to be able to call the police in an emergency, but it's pretty useless as a tool for one's immediate defense.

I understand that intellectually, but I still feel a bit . . . uneasy when talking to a strange man in a strange place.

Ok. I'll keep that in mind.

That's how adults routinely handle problems they can't solve themselves. Have an aquaintance help them or hire someone. If my computer isn't working right, I can ask Sissy or Grace to fix it for me. If my car isn't doing something it's supposed to, I can ask Grace or take it in to the dealership for service.

Heh. Despite many attempts to teach me, I still can't drive a stick shift. I still have a problem with making left turns across traffic because I've never gotten to the point where timing the turn feels natural, so I tend to leave huge gaps. Harmless, but annoying to passengers and the people behind me. Likewise, I can' parallel park. Grace and Sissy tell me just to practice and I'll get the feel for it eventually, but it never happened. I think I just lack the physical coordination.

[Sissy: You can dance in four-inch heels. That's physical coordination. You've got that part of it already. You just lack confidence.]

Sorry, got way off track there.

I get that, but this wasn't the situation to do that. I went to USC, a very good school. Most of the faculty here went to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Duke, Stanford, etc., better schools than mine. I have a PhD. They mostly have PhD.'s from better schools, some of them two. And so on. In this room, in this setting, I'm pretty much the least accomplished faculty member. Bragging would be disingenuous.

[Sissy: So what? Their having accomplished more, and I doubt all of them have, doesn't diminish what you've accomplished. Compare yourself to you, not to them.]

Well, except for the part where I got to say, "I'm married to her." That was fun.

This is another one of those things that I accept intellectually when detached from the situation, but in the moment it feels so much different, it just feels so much safer to not take the risk in the first place. I understand that doing difficult things makes you better at them, but at the same time, in individual instances, it usually seems prudent not to.

[Sissy: This one ties into the previous discussion of accepting that you're attractive. The research shows that if a person is seen as attractive, minor flaws or eccentricities make them more attractive to others. The people who were making fun of your drinking a Coke or collecting comic books were probably thinking that those things made you an interesting character. Trust me, they didn't think you'd be embarrassed, they were just enjoying you for bringing something interesting into what seemed a very dull event.

No, none of those things were a big deal. I wanted to make the party a learning experience so I could apply that knowledge to the next one. If we're not careful to notice our mistakes and correct them, we keep making the same ones over and over again, and that's unhealthy. As Supple Cow said, "It's ok to make mistakes", but I'd add that it's foolish not to learn from those mistakes, and you can't learn from them if you don't notice them.

That was her. I should have been more clear about that by using a different font. In my defense, I'm an expert in children's literature and reading, not composition.

That makes sense. However, how do you know whether someone saw the mistake? I don't point and laugh or even stare every time I see someone do something foolish, but that doesn't mean I didn't notice it.

And I know that the mistakes I made at the party were noticed, because people commented on them.

Well, if comic books, kung fu movies, performing oral sex on a woman, children's books, Scrabble, gender theory, gay rights, or women's fashion come up in conversation, I'm on good ground. Unfortunately those subjects aren't really things likely to come up in casual conversation, so I'm usually not on firm ground.

[Sissy: Nah. I'm the one who has to be careful about flirting. Once the guys know you're gay, you're home free to do all the cock teasing you like, especially if you keep making sidewise references to being gay. You talk easily about a hell of a lot more than those subjects at home. You should have brought up your gay interpretation of Rudolph at the Christmas party. They'd have loved that.]

Side note: I've developed a gay interpretation of the Rankin-Bass Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer. It makes it a ton more fun to watch and see the gay subtext running through all of the misfits in the show, intended or not.


Sounds reasonable.

I couldn't do that with an adult unless I knew them very, very well, and there are only two people who qualify in that regard.

The differenc is that in the classroom, I'm the authority figure. I'm granted an automatic measure of respect because I'm the teacher, and I have real authority granted to me as a result of occupying that position. I just have to build on that foundation that already exists.

In a social interaction, such as in the restaurant, in a store, or at a party, that doesn't apply. I'm not the one in charge, the one with the most knowledge, I have little to no authority granted me. I'm just a person.

It may depend on the subject. I've taught literature and social studies, which are inherently interesting subjects, so I don't have to make them interesting; they already are. It's more a case of not making them boring. It's not like it's, say, music class which does take an entertaining teacher to keep it from being dull, dull, dull, or PE which must be the most difficult subject to teach well.

[Sissy: I've never seen you teach, but if your history and literature classes were interesting, you were the reason.]

Maybe, but it still comes back to the authority thing I mentioned earlier. Even if things aren't going well, I still have the authority to steer the topic where I want it to go, and they have to follow.

Boy howdy do you have that one right. Actually, getting dressed up and going to a party would be nice if I didn't have to talk to anyone but Grace while I was there. That's how it usually operates when we go to a club, and I love that.

You got that right.

Or sneak off to my office for 20 minutes in the middle of the Christmas party to decompress because I was getting antsy. After discussing this with Grace and Sissy, I discovered another way I'm processing this differently from them. There's a tiny bit of stress to any social interaction, but with each new interaction, they're resetting their stress meters to zero. New person, new interaction, no or little carryover from the last one. The stress accumulates with me, each new interaction adding to the last.

Thank you. This really is helping, if not to improve my behavior itself, to understand a bit of it better. I hope I'm not arguing and defending too much. I'm really trying to just explain my thought processes here, not defend the status quo.

Gilda

Just a side note--from her paranthetical comments there, I gotta say: I'd LOVE to have Sissy as a regular member of TFP. She clearly kicks ass.

Seconded. You're very lucky, Gilda, as is she :)

That she does. She's also a genius. I've tried to entice each of the ladies in my life to come here, but they've both demured. Sissy has, like, friends in real life and stuff like that, and Grace says she doesn't need anyone but me for social interaction, becuase I give her as much as any three ordinary people.

Besides, this way I get to steal their ideas and present them as if they were my own, and everybody will think I'm the smart one in the family :).

Gilda