docbungle

are so unpredictable it drives me practically insane. Back when I was a teen, I was very reliable in showing up to work and doing my job. Nowadays, we have these spoiled little kids who are mentally inferior to my toilet bowl who wouldn't know personal responsibility if it snuck up and fucked them in the ass.

It is so hard to find an employee with any sort of moral integrity within this age group. They're stoned all of the time, including when they come to work, and spend all day every day slacking off at work or calling in sick, playing X-Box and trying unsuccessfully to get laid.

When I do hire one of them, (I have to hire someone), if it's a guy they spend all day on the register freaking out whenever an even remotely attractive woman comes in the store. Falling all over themselves and practically popping a boner right then and there. omg dude she was so fucking hot omg. If it's a girl they just gossip all day long, even right in front of customers. omg she's such a bitch omg.

Then one day they just don't show up to work. No call, nothing. Just fuck you. Fuck you for giving me a job and giving me the benefit of the doubt. Fuck you for going out of your way to make me feel at home and welcome. Fuck you for being a cool dude.

Well, I say fuck YOU, you tiny piece of nothing. Continue going through your so-called life fucking people over and wait and see where you end up. You are so far behind the rest of the world it is almost unfathomable. You're not going to run into too many others that are willing to throw you a floating device. And when you do drown, you will have ammassed a large crowd of spitefull onlookers, who I'm sure will relish in watching you sink.

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Bad Luck City

phredgreen

here's an idea. offer real wages and benefits so you can attract more than just whiny/lazy/useless/other-over-generalizations-that-aren't-necessary teenagers. or interview more thoroughly and check some backgrounds. even better, require them to have prior work experience with positive references...


i would feel bad for you, but you said yourself that you're the one hiring the wrong people. this is your fault, and it's your responsibility to improve the situation.

until then, quit your bitching and live with what you've set yourself up with.

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My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
- Thomas Paine

Rodney

There were a lot of young numbnuts in the service industry even 30 years ago when I worked minimum wage fast food. But in those days the general quality of workers was better because minimum wage was a better wage than it is now. They paid $2 bucks an hour, and you could just about live on it if you were young and healthy and single and didn't worry about insurance. So we got people in their 20s working along side me for the minimum, or maybe a quarter more. We even got people in their late '20s and '30s who were moonlighting for extra cash from the military. The wages were good enough that it was worth it to them.

Could you "just about live" on $5.75 an hour or whatever the fed minimum wage is today? Don't think so. Can you get a lot of decent people for minimum wage (who are legally in this country and trying to lead a decent life)? Don't think so.

Pay more, and find a way to make it work. Good employees should be more productive, maybe they'll pay their way. Oh yes, and pay good wages from day 1; don't make them work their way into it over a period of six months or a year. That way, the job will be valuable from day 1, more valuable than a lot of promises. And job seekers have heard a whole lot of promises from businessmen that never came to fruition.

docbungle

phred, thanks for your brilliant plethora of ideas. God, I'd never thought of that. Background checks, prior experience, benefits and wages? Who would've thought those things would be part of running a business?

All of your derogatory sarcasm aside, I see your point, but you are assuming I am a shitty manager and don't perform any of these standard procedures. You are wrong.

And I'm posting this in the living section because it effects my living. People like you who are just want to put me down don't help.

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Bad Luck City

phredgreen

so i take it you're leaving. no skin off my back. take care out there, and good luck with the managing thing. i hope it works out for you one day.

__________________
My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
- Thomas Paine

phredgreen

heh. the edit button is a great thing, isn't it? if a person dosen't check back soon enough, he'll never see some things people say to them.

my justification for my answer is this: you spend five paragraphs deriding and putting down an entire generation of indivduals because of your poor hiring desicions. i then give a few options as to a solution to a problem that is very obviously frustrating you. they are all good, sensible options, and because you haven't given any further information than that you hate pimply-faced punks, i don't know if those avenues have been explored. take a chill and realize that everything you're complaining about can be remedied if you go about yoru job in a different manner.

(i , however, did see what you said to me, but i'm going to let that slide, because i'm sure you weren't prepared for a harsh reality check and reacted very poorly to it.)

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My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
- Thomas Paine

docbungle

Maybe I should have just said "Good help is hard to find."

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Bad Luck City

gar1976

Let's face it - the older we get, the better we were.

__________________
Blistex, in regards to crappy games -

They made pong look like a story driven RPG with a dynamic campaign.

fuhrerhat

What do you want in teenaged work? Reliability, or potential. Labour, or efficiency.

I'd be a lot more careful whom you deem worthless until you ask the same questions about your own generation.

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Shazbot

Sugar&Spice

It sounds like a lot of these teenagers you are hiring are doing good in the interview so they can get a job and then everything they said they were capable of is no where to be seen.

My manager had a problem finding people in their late 20's who could be relied on. So, she started attending a few effective management classes and learned what to look for when performing an interview. Maybe some of those would help? She learned to ask questions that are not usually in an interview. The questions would throw the person off a little bit and they didn't have a good response because they hadn't had time to reherse what a good answer might be.

__________________
-Speak your mind even if your voice shakes

la petite moi

As an 18-year-old, this post pisses me off. I work very, VERY hard and try to make sure everything I do is done as well as I possibly can. I like learning and I like being social with my co-partners and discourage them from slacking off. I am friendly and converse with my customers, and when I make a mistake, I apologise and try to correct it. If you have a problem with an employee, you should do what most people call FIRING THEM. Obviously, you don't want to have to put up with people like that- so get people who actually really want to work. Either that, or lecture them for an hour on work ethic. And you know what, your generalisation is crap. I know adults who work like that too, cursing and talking loudly about their own personal woes.

Personally, I'm betting you treat your teen workers like crap. If you had a little confidence in teens (who aren't all stoned off our asses or trying in vain for sex), you would probably gain a little respect.

/rant

lukethebandgeek

Honestly, no one is going to work very hard for minimum wage.

A dead end job is a dead end job. That's all there is to it. Should someone run at a wall or mosey toward it whilst looking for another road?

__________________
Yes, band camp is all it's cracked up to be.

So I like Chrono... So what?

docbungle

Let's get rid of the assumption that I pay minimum wage. I don't know where that assumption came from, but I pay much better than that. Let's also get rid of the assumption that I treat my employees like crap, especially teenagers. I have a lot of teen friends. Just because I am venting on my favorite forum does not mean that I speak, act or even remotely behave this way while at work. Finally, let's get rid of the assumptions that all I hire is dead-end kids with no work experience and that I do not provide superb training.

I of course understand that not all teens are worthless and horrible. That's like saying most girls have cooties. In fact, no one is worthless. I generalized by saying "Most teens...." which set off a series of backlashes. Let me rephrase by saying "Most teens that I have employed..." So, this is only related to my experience with hiring people, which I have been doing for roughly 9 years now.

I pay well and employ a wide spectrum of age groups; currently the youngest is 18 (well, was) and the oldest is 43. Pretty equal mix of male and female. Part-time and full-time. The job is retail, which I admit is a bit of a drag, but the benifits are plentifull and there are lots of bonuses based on performance. Plus the schedule is very flexible. I get good strong performance out of most employees, and make fair concessions for those who require them. I hire handicapped, elderly, black, white, young, spanish, etc...and on and on. Everyone is treated equally to the best of my ability. I am held accountable for my behavior just like I hold my employees accountable for theirs.

Having said that, I find it very difficult to find good help in the
17 - 19 (or, high-school) age range. More times than not, (but of course not ALL the time) regardless of how the interview went or how much time is spent training, or how good they start out, their lifestyle ends up getting in the way of work. Calling in sick when they are actually just hung over and that type of thing. This seems typical of those who are not attending college yet. I offer tuition assistance, which brings a lot of young applicants my way. And those who use it are quite often great employees. But they are the minority.

And when these young people quit, (the ones that I've described) it is usually without a proper notice, which can often make it difficult to get the shifts covered. Which leads to this post. Now that I'm all calmed down, I will go hire some new employees, be they young or old. Sorry for pissing anyone off, but it was much better to rant here than to explode at work.

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Bad Luck City

la petite moi

Argh, I'm sorry for assuming. The way you presented your venting just seemed like you thought all teens were like that.

You probably would want to hire me. I always make sure I get someone to work my shift on the RARE occasion I have to miss work. (I've only missed once because I was coughing so badly it would have been gross to work- I work for Starbucks and no one wants some person coughing on their drinks.)

docbungle

la petite moi,
Sorry for generalizing. My last post should have replaced my first. I was pissed and a little out of line.

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Bad Luck City

Suave

LOL that was beautiful dude. Well, for the next... *checks watch* 8 days, I'm still technically a teenager, and I like to think I was one of the better ones.

I know what you mean though; I hear my brother and cousin talking about how they don't show up, fuck work, they jack shit from work, or whatever, and I just kinda sit there like "WOW GOOD FOR YOU". It's awful, but it's so ludicrously bad that I'm beginning to find it comical; especially with your little ode to idiots there.

One thing though, is that I think a lot of adults are the same way, except that they hide their laziness and craptacularity (best word ever, because I made it up) with their experience. Also, if you want cheap, good labour, hire some illegal immigrants.

Rodney

My apologies, Doc. It sounds like you're doing the right things after all. But I really don't think teens are all that much worse than they ever were.

It can depend on the community. In my experience, teens who come from working-class backgrounds where their parents put a value on hard work (because they won't survive if they don't), tend to "get it" faster. Kids who've grown up more insulated from the harsh realities, that's another story.

Cynthetiq

I find it ashame.

I for one could not deal with my peers when I was a teen in the 80s for those very reasons. I chose to not work in retail at all. I chose to work in a more responsible environment so I worked in offices, which also paid 1.5 - 2x more than retail.

When I did have to deal with it in College, I did it for 1 year as an assistant manager, and then had to just stop dealing with it altogether and went back to working in offices.

I wish you luck.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Rodney

If you're committed to hiring teens, one thing you might do is to find a responsible community service organization to pre-screen deserving talent for you -- a boy's club, school club, school or community voc-ed program. If it's a good job, they'll be happy to comply. Make it clear you'd be willing to be a source of jobs for them in the future _as long as they keep sending over quality people._

This can work. My sister was a school district vocational-ed administrator for many years, and she developed relationships with employers like this. In return, she refused to give any of her charges a shot at the good jobs until she was convinced they were serious. And she takes a lot of convincing.

kurty[B]

not accusing you docbungle, but just stating from experience, I generally try to be as reliable as possible, I don't like stressing myself out, so even when told to rush I still move at a nice steady overall pace (if I rush myself I'll start messing things up, and I've found backtracking to repair what I did wrong takes longer than just doing it right in the first place).

My last job, I had a manager who decided he would use me as some sort of example. I don't know why he picked me out?? I did not like the job, but I continued to show up everyday, and do what I needed to do. My manager set strict restrictions, having to call when I went on break, or came back, and would watch my stats rigorously, and would yell at me for working to slow, when looking through back stats I was working at the same pace I always had. He transferred me to an area known for where people go when manager's are looking to get them to quit, and I lost any motivation when he brought me aside and said "I will find any little reason to get you fired!" I continued to work by his rules, and did what he demanded, no matter how horrible it seemed, till the day he accused me of doing something I did not do (taking too long to deliver product). He called me and accused me of this, and in front of my co-workers I told him that he was lying, and he could FUCK OFF. This was the one and only time I had ever raised my voice at work, and people were rather scared to see it. I told HR about the situation, they said they'd look into it (Yeah right). I quickly found a much more satisfying job, and when I was accepted to that job, I called my manager, and simply said "I'm not going to be into work tonight, or tomorrow night for that matter", and hung up. I would have told him I was not coming in ever again, but if I quit on my own terms I would have had to pay back tuition reimbursement granted to me. Because, of the wording of the tuition reimbursement contract, since he terminated my employment I did not owe the company any money.

I hope I never have to work for another manager like that.

Cynthetiq

Rodney a great idea... I did the same thing when I needed interns (college students can be equally as bad...)

So I contacted the local vocational school for IT people. I got the cream of the crop and another person to help screen and reprimand if there was an issue.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

docbungle

Yes, I agree with this. We are in a bit of a 'pretentious' area, if you will. More Range Rovers and Escalades on the streets than Fords. Most of the kids seem to be a bit...well... pampered. Which is hard to gauge at first and not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself.

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Bad Luck City

Lover's Spit

I'm an 18-year old university student, I get the feeling you're taking this generalization a little too far.

I worked my ass off in a pizzeria the last 4 months, which included the summer when our pizza ovens and piss-poor working space made things almost unbearable. I did this and delivered pizza, had a lot of fun doing it most of the time actually, and I'd say I was a damn good worker. I can say the same for the other three 18-year olds on the staff... and most of the same for many people I graduated with.

I think you might just be hiring the wrong kids.

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I pledge my grievance to the flag,
Because you don't give blood and take it back again.

thefictionweliv

What is the fucking point? I would bust my ass while the rest of the people I would work with didn't do shit. I could close down the store alone in an hour less than 2 people and have it done right. Yet would I ever get a raise. It is a mutual relationship. If employers aren't going to give incentives to those who distinguish themselves then why should we? If anything doing my job right more often than not hurt my chances for promotion, acknowledgement, as when I always did my job it wasn't remarkable however when co-workers got off their asses to toss a pepporoni they get promoted to manager. Employees don't get hard work cause they don't value hard workers or the people. Managment of food service and such often treats their employees as a stack of applications rather than people.

And since you were so pretentious.

I say FUCK you, you shitty ass fucking manager, hiring and let work these shitty as co-workers that I've had to put up with picking up their slack for the past fucking year. For not promoting competition for that is vital for a healthy workplace. Fuck you for not hiring people from within the company and hiring shit ass shift managers that couldn't tell a stove from a freezer and let me teach them how to do their fucking job for the next 6-months where you presume to repeat your mistake you fucking asshat. You think your job is a gift to me? Just as easy as you can pick up another application I'll get hired down the street, so you need to fucking learn that it is a two-way fucking street. If you can't get a quality employee its because you have no place in fucking management, so get your head out your ass and face fucking reality.

BTW I was a Delivery Driver also o.0

whocarz

thefictionweliv, I certainly hope that was directed at your previous manager(s), and not anyone here.

__________________
If there exists anything mightier than destiny, then it is the courage to face destiny unflinchingly. -Geibel

Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius

Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

thefictionweliv

It wasn't an attack more of a mock of the first post since it is not only the community of 18-19, but its the community of managment as well that the problem lies.

slimshaydee

docbungle, did you come from the generation where you had to walk 20 miles to school in the snow without shoes uphill each way and do chores from dawn till sundown every single day of your life, or did you come from the generation where everyone was a potsmoking STD transmitting hippy. Back in my day...

Cynthetiq

really? last I checked you got wages for the work you did... that's the reward.. that's the pay out.. that's the carrot on the stick.

I do a good job as a good worker because that's what I do. I cannot do a bad job. I have tried and it's just not how I operate. But I get paid to do the job. If I don't get a promotion that's the nature of the workforce and I need to make sure that I have all the right ducks in a row to make sure that when the time comes again the reason for me not getting a promotion is not because I'm missing some qualification.

Now, as a manager, I keep on people who are not working to the top of form. I have fired people for making an excuse as to why something can't be done for an hour and then going to lunch... when they returned from lunch they found their stuff waiting for them in a box.

But ultimately the reason you are working is because you are trading time for money. Period. Today's Pampered Kids 18-19 don't have any values as to where money comes from...

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

docbungle

Well, sounds like you know how I feel. You've dealt with the same crap, only from the opposite perspective. The manager you describe is not me, but of course there are many like that out there. And if you are not one of the kids I describe, then there is no reason to take offense, as I am not referring to you.

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Bad Luck City

krwlz

My two cents on the issue (being 19, and a hard worker... Started at 12 doing hay with my grandfather 6 days a week every summer) is that it is a two way street.

But in the end, the kids have to get through their heads that their managers and boss's owe them NOTHING beyond their current wages for the time they have worked there. If you work harder then all the other kids there... ask for a raise. If they deny it... Find another, better job. YOU are working for THEM, not vice versa.

The problem (I think) in the youth (and most of the rest of society) is a feeling of entitlement. You arnt entitled to anything. You earn your keep in society.

The Magic

I worked at Bestbuy for three months a year ago (just turned 18 a few weeks ago).

I was so happy when I quit. I did kind of quit suddenly -- no two weeks notice or anything. They didn't give me any hours for the schedule before that, and I already really hated working there, so I just quit. I did show up to work and tell them that I am quitting though. But it was really sudden.

I would say I was a great worker though. Didn't once call in sick. If it wasn't suddenly sprung upon me (ie a call at 4pm to work 5pm-12am), I would go in for extra hours if they needed it. The only reason I wouldn't if it was sudden was because I bused to work. I even went to work when we had a ton of snow outside and I still had to take the bus. I was the only one in my department (media) who showed up.

Onto what is probably my main reason for quitting -- public transportation. It sucks. Horribly. On the weekend I would have to leave my house about an hour and a half early to get to work on time. If I had a car to drive, it would've taken me about 15 minutes to get to work. What really sucked is when they would make me work from about 12pm-4pm on a saturday. I already wake up at 6 am monday-friday, I like to stay up late on my fridays and sleep in till 12 or so on my saturdays. But if I worked from 12-4, I'd have to get up at 9 to shower get dressed etc, then leave at about 9:45 to catch the bus. Then I'd work and get home at about 6. That's 4 hours of pay for what's a nine hour day for me. I wouldn't care so much if they worked me from 12-8 or something, but when I have to spend more time getting to and from work as actually working, it really sucks.

So yeah, I always showed up to work even if it was a pain in the ass to get there and I also knew my department really well. I really disliked the methods of Bestbuy though (walking up to -every- customer and pestering them, also you're supposed to offer subscription services way too often).

If you have any teens who show to work high or call in sick constantly, just fire their asses (if you can, I heard from my friend who worked at a grocery store that basically it was impossible for them to get fired cause of the union). Grades in highschool and attendance might be a good indicator of their work ethic. Maybe ask them how close they are, if they know if they're busing/driving, and if they know how long it would take them to use the bus. Some kids ( like me) might not realize how much time they would have to spend on that bus.

slimshaydee

docbungle, I wanna know if you're actually making their job interesting, and rewarding them for doing a good job (doesn't have to be financial). Furthermore, it sounds like you have a lack of control over your employees. Control doesn't have to be punishment, there are other methods. I could go into a whole lot of management theory about Maslow's Hierarchy of needs, McGregor's Theory Y and shit like that, but I have exams to study for. Just remember though, if your subordinates aren't doing what you want them to do, you aren't leading properly, and you aren't controlling properly. And there is where you have failed 2 out of the 4 management functions, which means you aren't being the best manager.

docbungle

Slim, I don't know where from my posts you get the assumption that I have a "lack of control" or am overly stern in punishment of employees. I am stern when I need to be and I make the job as fun and interesting as possible. There is a limit to all of this, of course, as it is not a party but a job. Things need to get done. Everyone seems to be making excuses for these poor crappy workers. I give them a chance; if they mess up I give them the benefit of the doubt, just like I do everyone else. But if they repeatedly ignore what they are told, or repeatedly miss scheduled shifts, then the playtime is over. I am not here to entertain them. I have a business to run.

And, um, no, I didn't walk uphill in the snow...etc...etc...but a lot of people out there seem to be sliding downhill in the snow, fast, and at the bottom is a...well...nothing, actually.

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Bad Luck City

Cynthetiq

doc I'm with you...

It's called a job because it provides one WAGES. It's called work for a reason.. not a party, not a good time, not fun time... but WORK.

we have a good time here at the offices... we goof off alot.. when it's time to work it's time to put your head down, your shoulders and back into the work.. and do it. At the end of the week... we still keep millions of TV sets tuned into our channels because like you said.. we too have a business to run.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

slimshaydee

you obviously haven't studied management.

Cynthetiq

and what does that mean? I know lots of people who have studied management and are still shitty managers. I don't have my BA or any degree for that matter yet I was a very effective manager that still has people who worked for me asking to make sure to call them when I'm in a position to hire them again.

shitty workers are shitty workers and not necessarily because of a shitty manager.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

docbungle

Well, whatever floats your boat, buddy. I AM management, and have been for some time. Study it all you want...until you're in it you really have no idea what you're talking about, imo.

Anyhow, this thread served it's purpose as a rant and I even managed to have some intelligent discussion with a few people. I'm not here for your approval not do I care much what your unfounded opinion is of my management skills. I have a supervisor who is happy with me, and that's what counts.

Thanks.

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Bad Luck City

combatmedicjen

docbungle, I completely agree. From my own personal experience in retail this is a mostly accurate view of young employees. Granted, there are a few adult employees who exude the traits you mentioned above, but I have definitely also noticed the disturbing "I don't give a fuck" attitude in young employees.

I'm new to management, but I've already noticed that I can't trust any of my younger employees to do their job. They cannot seem to use their brains, they're inefficient, and they're generally not to be trusted with any sort of important task (and especially not with money). In the past week we fired one idiot who was a no call/no show too many times to count. We've written up numerous employees for losing money, not calling in, abusing markouts and consistently showing up late. They just don't give a flying fuck, and it's annoying as hell.

I have a theory as to why this is. I work in a college town and 90% of my store's employees are college students. They have everything paid for by their parents/financial aid/loans. They do not technically NEED jobs. They basically have no incentive to work, other than to earn play money. They're not being paid poorly (Starbucks starts you at at least $7.00/hr +tips and raises every six months) -- they just don't care. Trust me, if I had the authority to fire these employees, I wouldn't think twice about canning every last one of them.

I, on the other hand, need the money I earn to live on, which makes me work much harder. Although I am the same age as my delinquent employees I show a significantly higher level of integrity and reliability. I give a damn about my job, and working with people that couldn't care less is incredibly stressful and quite enraging.

It's unfortunate that I've had such a horrible experience with high school/college-aged employees that I'm already this jaded. Again, this is only MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE -- I am not trying to insult or belittle anyone reading this who may be a hardworking teen. It is just nice to be able to identify with someone else who is experiencing the same rather worrysome trend among younger employees.

slimshaydee

Richard Branson can motivate even the shittiest worker to do a good job. It's all about leading an controlling.

theFez

i spent a long time as a manager in the hospitality industry. i found that there are good and bad teenaged employees, just like there are good and bad employees of any age. Usually with older workers you can figure out what you got by looking at a resume or job app and calling references. Kids are harder. They often dont have any work history or even experience and don't always realize that work = money.

What i found is once you have a couple good ones, just let them know when you have job openings and ask them if they have any friends who need a job. I usually found that the kids who were good workers knew who they wanted to work with and didnt often send slackers. I also paid bonuses ($100 or so) if they reccommended someone and they made it throught their 90 day probation.

I dont know what the laws are in your state, but here we have a 90 day probationary period where an employee can be let go for no other reason than 'sorry, this just isnt working out'. if so, take advantage of it.

I agree that often bad employees are the result of bad management but not always. You will find bad employees under good management only slightly less often than you find good employees under bad management.

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