wilbjammin

I was having trouble deciding whether to put this thread here, philosophy, or general discussion. I think Living makes the most sense -


I have seen a lot of interesting attempts in the last few weeks of people trying to rationalize that the situations they are in aren't as bad as they really are. Severe cognitive dissonance seems to be a rule more than an exception these days. People try so hard and gain a lot of support in quieting those "bad thoughts".

There are reasons that people have bad thoughts, and to attempt to ignore/dismiss those thoughts won't make the negative emotions go away. And to justify whatever you see as a problem as being OK just creates a schizm within the self.

Rather than making a complicated set of rules under which some things are OK, and others are not, I'd suggest that we would, instead, admit to our mistakes, short-comings, and give validation to our feelings. There is always a reason that someone feels a certain way, and it is never invalid. It may be irrational, but to understand the irrationality of some emotions is much better than simple dismissal.

The point that I am getting at is that I think there is a problem with the amount of rationalization that I am seeing. Rather than coming to better understandings of ourselves, we create more distance within ourselves. Rationalization, in my view, is one of the biggest contributors to people not knowing themselves.


The questions then, are, what can be done? Do you agree that rationalization is a big problem? What are the causes of rationalization? What are the effects of rationalization as you see them? How does rationalization affect you personally?

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Innominate.

Prince

Actually, I see your point. People like myself, who over-analyze everything about themselves, are easily mistaken to think that this allows them to get a clearer, objective picture of their actions or feelings, and hence makes it possible for them to reach a more advised decision as to what to do about their issues.

But sometimes, through this analyzing, we distance ourselves from our feelings and more so the validity of our feelings, and the problems we are experiencing change forms. We may indeed develop a new problem for ourselves to ponder over, thinking that the feelings we were having weren't the issue, but the reason why we were having those feelings. Thus, we completely ignore and set aside the feelings we were having, suppressing them, removing focus from what quite possibly needed to be resolved, or from the fact that there was no call for a resolution of any kind in the first place.

But, often it seems, we think that if we were not to act this way, we would be simply selfish, and not giving enough thought and consideration to what matters might lie underneath.

Still, I think the solution you propose - which we could ultimately call "honesty" - seems a lot healthier in the long run.

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Who is John Galt?

Cynthetiq

detachment from those feelings and emotions is the beginning.

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Master_Shake

I disagree with your view that rationalization leads to bad results or it is somehow less honest than going with your feelings.

More often than not, I rationalize a situation in an attempt to allow myself to do things, or not do things, instead of just going along with what I'm "supposed" to do. Often I want to do something that society says is bad. I rationalize the situation and my desire so as to allow me to do it. For example, I may want to watch pornography involving dolphins and small asian women. Society generally dislikes this kind of behaviour and may even have laws preventing it. But I rationalize that; well, the porn already exists, so I'm not creating more of it, I'm just enjoying what is already there. Presto! I can enjoy such porn.

Other times, I do rationalize my situation so that I am able to cope with it. For example, I haven't had a date in years because I fear contact with others. I rationalize all the time that; "it's probably better for me this way. I won't get married, have children, then divorce and have to pay spousal and child support as some of my friends have to do."

Without the ability to rationalize I probably woudn't be able to function in the limited way I am able, because I would spend all my time trying to carry out the whims of my feelings. I imagine many people would have a similar experience and most of society would collapse. Who the hell would go to work at McDonald's when you could follow your feelings and sit around all day banging the hot chick you've managed to intoxicate.

Of course, maybe the collapse of society would be a good thing. I just hope I can still buy water filters when nobody shows up to work at wal-mart.

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

wilbjammin

This is a different kind of rationalization than what I was referring to. You're taking "bad" in the sense that someone else tells you that it is bad. I'm taking "bad" as meaning that you feel personally negative feelings. The psychological definition that I am using is "a defense mechanism by which your true motivation is concealed by explaining your actions and feelings in a way that is not threatening."

I'll provide an example of the cognitive dissonance that comes along with acting to supress the negative feelings to justify one's self:

Someone is unsure as to how much their SO loves/cares for them. They begin to get anxious and try to get the other person to prove their love. These passive-agressive actions alienates the other person and in desperation, this person goes to a bar in self-loathing because they are attention-starved. They have a few drinks, "one thing leads to another", and this person has sex with a stranger. This person realizes what an awful mistake it was, feels terrible, and realizes that they love their SO and their SO loves them. Then, this person choses to lie about the event/hide the event/or justify the event to the SO to play down the break of trust.

Now, this person is completely responsible for all of these actions, and yet acted irresponsibly. While deep feelings of guilt are natural and can be very debilitating, a good faith response to them is not to deflect responsibility of these actions by rationalization. There ARE reasons that these negative things happen, and it is important to understand those reasons... however, deflecting responsibility and trying to nullify the negative emotions through rationalization which is a form of self-deception is unhealthy.

Using rationalization excessively shows a lack of courage and an unwillingness to address the dark side of yourself to prevent yourself from making decisions that affect your life negatively in the future.

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Innominate.

ratbastid

Strike "these days" from that sentence. Rationalization is the fundamental expression of 99% of human existence. I'd say there are only VERY rare moments when we're not explaining or excusing or justifying ourselves to ourselves.

Here's the thing, though: treating it like a problem is just MORE rationalization. Why do I have problems in my life? Why do I fail to understand myself, repeat destructive patterns over and over again? Oh, it's because I rationalize. That's why! Okay, well now I know that, I can quit looking there...

Any conversation about this has to be grounded in the principle that this sort of self-deception is normal, fine, and not a problem. 6.8 Billion people operate this way and lead perfectly fine lives.

The only thing is, the general experience of those lives is one of a lack of satisfaction and fulfillment. The continual hum-and-buzz of us justifying and rationalizing ourselves to ourselves utterly keeps from Being Here Now. Any accomplishment is explained away, any failure either brushed under the rug or magnified into a crushing burden.

And that's FINE. We all do it! Every last one of us! It's not a problem, it's just how we're wired!

Thing is, something entirely different becomes possible when you can actually own that you do that. If you can hear yourself rationalizing and interrupt it in the moment, suddenly the chorus in each of our heads shuts up for a split second, and in that second who we actually are emerges. And in that space, we can make choices for our lives that are extraordinarily powerful. Anything is possible in that moment. Anything.

This got a little esoteric. Sorry for that.

wilbjammin

And tautological.


Ok... I'll start with the premise that there is no absolute right and wrong. Given that, we are free to choose for ourselves what is best for yourself to the best of our ability in the context of being a product of an environment.

I think you're failing to differentiate rationalization as a tool of reason, and as a defense mechanism. I am certain that at some point all of us do use rationalization as a mechanism, but that does not mean that it is not a problem.

When rationalization (typically rationalizations build on each other) contributes to severe cognitive dissonance, we are faced with deep inner-conflict. We end up doing things that we feel are bad for ourselves, and then attempt to re-interpret these experiences as good. This leads to a sort of repression that can lead to emotional and physical problems (high stress, depression, anxiety, self-destructive behavior).

Being alive and just getting by in spite of one's self seems like at least one step back from a "perfectly fine life".

When you realize that you are rationalizing you are presented with a choice. Given that, a good faith response then would be to explore a route that would dimish the self-made schizms we create within ourselves. Instead, typically, many choose to move on and continue in the patterns they are by trying to find new rationalizations for the same things. You say that "anything is possible" and in spite of that "anything" doesn't usually happen.

There are pay-offs to our self-destructive behaviors - gain attention, power, avoidance of failure, etc. These tend to win out when we let our self-decifiencies and fears control us.

Not in my life, I refuse to choose to be unsatisfied and unfulfilled because of my poor decisions. I can have contradictions and paradoxes in my existence, but even then, I continue to work towards unity as hard as that can be to work against the impulses to repeat those patterns.

I still contend that we all should.

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Innominate.

Master_Shake

I disagree. This person only acted irresponsibly because society generally disproves of non-monogamous relationships. The guilt comes from internalizing the nonsense rules that society imposes. Rationalizing those nonsense rules away is a good thing; when closely examined, very few of society's rules make any sense because so many are based on superstition, antiquated notions of morality and just plain stupidity. The individual should be free to act in his/her best interests, not just what society says is best. I think an excellent way of determining what is or is not in one's best interests is by rationally examining the situation. One may or may not always reach the best decision (or even the most rational one), but I have to believe it is generally better than just going with whatever you "feel" is the best at any given moment.

Using rationality to justify past behaviour isn't quite as noble as thinking about it ahead of time, but at least the person is thinking logically, and maybe it's good practice, whereby the person will get in the habit of thinking rationally instead of always going with his/her feelings.

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You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

anti fishstick

I don't understand your point of view. You're saying that society has nonsense rules we should get rid of and do everything we can to rationalize against? Society has these rules specifically for a common code of moral convention that most people adhere to. People who do not obey these conventions are probably breaking the law and will recieve the consequences. Would you rather we have no convention and an anarchaic society? I understand your conventions may be different than the rest of society and that's fine. Not everyone can be fit into this mold, and I certainly don't agree with all of it either (particularly when we cross the line between public and private domain and law), but it's there only for our benefit.

This person acted irresponsibly in the sense that his actions were all being lead by doubts and insecurities. He let emotions and rationalization dominate his choices which isn't a responsible thing, regardless of society looking down on non-monogamous relationships. Would breaking out in anger and quickly deciding to break up with someone "in the heat of a moment" be a responsible decision? It is the same kind of thing.. People can be impulsive and regret it later but decide to rationalize instead of confront the situation. This only leads to more and more impulsive behaviour and rationalization because it is a cycle. Personally, I agree with Will that we should take a second look at our lazy and rationalizing behaviours.

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And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~Anais Nin

Bentley Little

Hooray! Say what you feel, don't lie to yourself, be honest to others, and I think that is a great improvement in one's self.

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That is my 2 cents.

Meier_Link

I agree that it definitely sounds better to be true to yourself in all cases; however I think that rationalization of things I have done in the past is probably the only way I can live with myself.

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life is a sexually transmitted disease

little_tippler

I know you're talking about rationalizing your own personal problems here, but what about rationalizing a situation you're in, to try and make it work out for the best? For example, if i'm having an argument with someone, I have learnt to stop when I feel that I am about to scream at them, and think about what they are and I am saying. Then I try to work out to the best of my ability why we are really arguing and whether there is something I can say that will be true to my thoughts on the matter, while not offending or hurting the other person. I have come to the conclusion that in general arguments are negative situations that should be prevented and "toned down" if possible. I am true to this "rationalization", for as long as I can make sense of the complexity of the argument/situation. Sometimes it does happen (albeit rarely) that I loose track of how to make peace because it all becomes too complex to work out in the short time the other person gives me to think before yelling at me, and I admit to losing my cool at times, but don't we all.

Some people I know find this characteristic in me interesting and have learned to respond to it quite differently to the usual rant, but others find it very annoying that I am able to keep my cool and rationalize the situation, particularly when I am so calm to the point of being able to tell the other person why they just offended me and why it's unreasonable of them, and how I understand this, in a very calm way. It drives some people nuts! I feel a better person for having learned to mediate conflicts well in my life.

I don't think rationalization in this sense is bad.

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Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918