Should I Kick My 20-y.o. Son Out?
 

Current situation is this:
Just got home from a two-week vacation. Left my 20 y.o. son home alone as opposed to making him find alternate housing for the duration. Why think of making him leave? Because every time I leave him home alone, he throws parties, tears the house up, damages furniture, stains the carpets, leaves things filthy--just shows a complete disregard for our home.

Quick history on my son. Legally declared a juvenile delinquent at age 16 after many minor run-ins with the law, drugs, shoplifting, curfew violation.
Also at age 16, as an unlicensed, uninsured driver, he took our car and hit another boy in a car... and fled the scene. Was incarcerated in a drug-rehabiliatation center/jail for three months. Missed too much school while in the the treatment center (also was chronically truant from high school prior to getting sent to center). So when released from the treatment center, dropped out of high school at age 17.
Does not go to college.
Works as little as possible.
Does nothing to help out around the house.
Pays little to no room/board, though before leaving
for our trip. we told him it, as well as a full time job, was necessary beginning this month.

So here I am, just drove 725 miles straight thru to get home tonight, looking forward to crawling into my nice bed and the first thing I'm confronted with is the bed completely stripped of its bedding. He had used my bed--- the condoms in the waste basket tell me he had sex in it--and this isn't the first time. Ick.
My bedroom lamp was knocked over, leaving the lampshade broken.

The cedar chest, where I keep my linens, has been scraped on several edges down to the bare wood.
There's lots of filth throughout the house, but here is the real kicker:
He's taken my freakin' car again!

I accidently left my car keys here and he's taken the car to wherever, without any insurance or permission. I don't know where he is, don't know when he's coming back.

He was told in no uncertain terms that if he messed up in any way he would be asked to leave, and this is what I intend to do when I see him. If the car isn't home by the morning, I'll file a report and maybe get some help in tracking him/it down.

(His bio-father has been out of the picture since my son was a baby, I was a divorced mom for about 7 years then met his stepdad when my son was 8 years old. Not much of a relationship there--which was both of their choices.)

I really can't deal with this kid any more. He has this sense of entitlement paired with a real lack of conscience for his actions.

Any suggestions or comments would be very much appreciated. Thanks!

I honestly feel for you. I can't give a solid answer as I was taught to respect the rights/properties of others when I was young. Mostly my parents.

I believe personally it's time to live your own life. He's 20 now, and he should go out on his own. You aren't getting any younger, and you need to live your own life also.

I remember your picture on the exhibition forum, you had a pretty smile. It's not pleasing to think that smile is turned upside down, mostly by a family member.

Good luck.

Re: Should I Kick My 20-y.o. Son Out?
 

So, why are you asking if you should kick him out of the house?! Sounds like anything you tell him means basically nothing because you don't necessarily enforce punishment or otherwise do what you say you will, which undoubtedly goes a long way to explain why he is the way he is.

20 is too old to still be living with you. Kick his ass out. Maybe when he has to work so he can afford to pay his rent and bills, he will shape up and learn some responsibility.

Re: Re: Should I Kick My 20-y.o. Son Out?
 

I suppose I'm asking if kicking him out is the right thing to do.

I have enforced punishment however, tho' maybe not as consistantly as I could've.
I was the one that petitioned the court to declare him a delinquent. Otherwise there would have been no consequence for his stealing & smashing up the car, because it is his *parent's* car.

In all honesty, it is tough for me to punish him. I keep wishing that he'll grow a conscience, so I won't have to *kick his ass out.* But I just can't ignore this.
I guess I'm just looking for confirmation from someone objective, that this is the best and most reasonable thing to do.

From what you have posted, i don't think he's going to change in the near future.

If i were his father(Mother in your case) i would give him one month to find a place to stay, and when that month was over cut him off, lock the doors throw his shit out on the lawn.

I know this would be tough, heck i dont think you'r or anyone else is actually capable of doing such a thing, but face it.
It dosent seem like he's going to change for the better while living at home, slacking off.

Such a hard question. I can't answer without thinking of my brother, who had a similar history...hard to answer without all of the "wish I had done this instead" thoughts clouding the issue. He eventually straightened out and found his way, but not till he'd been homeless, in jail, and then lived with my mom till he was 24.

That said, your son is not my brother. So, when I'm thinking logically here is what I'd say:

- He's been warned already, told what the house rules are, and what the consequences are for breaking them

- If he goes out on his own, he may either straighten up in the real world, or he won't. If he doesn't, are you strong enough to let him fail and take the consequences on himself? I know from watching my mom how hard it is to watch your kids struggle and let them take their own knocks and learn their own lessons.

- The other question is whether you can live with his actions if he stays and doesn't change?

Since you asked outright, I do think that kicking him out is the right thing to do. He's never going to lose the sense of entitlement, or grow a conscience, if he doesn't experience some pretty harsh consequences of his actions, first hand. Having a roof over his head, a car, food, etc., is shielding him from any consequences. He knows you love him, and he knows you're ambivalent about letting him stay vs. pushing him out on his own, and my guess is that he uses your own love and ambivalence to manipulate you a bit. He knows your buttons and how to push them to get what he wants.

I'm so sorry. Like I said, I watched my mom struggle with this for years, and I really feel for you. But I do think a "tough love" stance is probably best for both of you. He may not change, but at least if he's not living with you you're not a victim of his actions. Unless you're willing to live with whatever he throws at you, unconditionally, I'd say it's time for him to find his own place.

After reading this, I have to say the best thing you can do, not only for you, but also for him is *just* to kick him out.

He doesn't quite seem to understand what having your own life entails, nor the apreciation of his current situation. If he won't learn from you, let the cruel world do it's job.

Your son's behaviour is quite similar to a young man, who I attempted to help. He too was declared a deliquent and his parents kicked him out of their home. He literally left with only the clothes on his back. Of course he blamed everyone but himself for this, however, he did decide to get a job and support himself. To help him in his endeavor I arranged transportation to and from his job and also subsidized some of his living expenses. The sad thing is that he really didn't want to work or to help himself and he lost a pretty good job. His behaviour has continued to denegrate ever since.

His real personality has manifested itself over the last two years, and he subsequently has been convicted of theft, assault, menacing and fraud. He also stole items from my home and absconded with a gas card which was abused considerably.

I'm detailing this for you because some people, no matter how hard you try to help them, refuse to help themselves.

Try to get him into therapy and if he doesn't improve within an appropriate time frame, as painful as it will be, show him the door.

Good luck.

I'm sorry that you had to drive all that way and have to deal with this immediately.

Stop enabling him to abuse you and your personal property.
He's over age of legal consent, you have no legal obligations to him any longer. I'm not a mother nor father, but I have no regard for anyone who doesn't at least have enough respect for themselves to deal with the mundane things of life like keeping a roof over your head.

Size 8 boot to the ass...curbside.

and BTW....you should have made it a poll that way you'll just see raw numbers instead of discourse that could disuade or persuade you otherwise from doing the difficult task.

i would call the police and have them remove him from the house . sounds to me like he needs to be out of your home and he will either make it are be put in a place where they keep close watch on him meaning jail. you do not owe him a thing,and there is no way in hell i would put up with him tearing up thinks you have worked for. i have raied 6 kids and all are different .i concider myself lucky in that only 1 has caused me trouble.right now he is sitting in county jail over traffic tickets.i have helped he 1 time and he got into trouble again by not paying his fines.i will not pay them for him so he will sit until he is released .he has 2 brothers that are police officers and they have taken him to jail theirselves.give yourself some peace and kick his ass out.it will either help him that is his choice.

Hey guys... I'm typing this through tears so please bear with me.

First, thank you from the heart for taking the time to offer support and advice. It helps a lot.

Just a couple small things:

He's been in therapy- individual, family, group -- a number of times. He's been on anti-depressants--several different kinds. He refused to go along with any of it back when we started, and we tried again & again. He still refuses.

I have realized that it is not ironic at all that a therapist (me) would have a child like this. I'm just like anyone else and I have to keep reminding myself that I should be taking the advice that I would give a client, to give him some opportunities to shape up--he's had more than I can count---or tell him to leave--that's the only option here.

This is not going to be easy--beyond the emotionality of it is the fact that we co-signed on his car and we know that he won't make payments--he's always behind even now--so it's inevitable that this is going to cost us, but it can't be a reason to let him stay.

After getting some groceries, my husband is going down to the police station to file a report. I just hope they don't cop out with the * he's a family member, so the car can't be stolen,* response. Regardless, for insurance reasons, we'll have our bases covered.

I'll stay home in case he shows up--meanwhile I can do one of the things that helps me when I'm stressed--put some upbeat music on and clean house ;) .

Thank you again for for taking the time to express your thoughts on this.

Cyn, your idea for a poll is excellent. I tried to edit the post to add a poll, but it seems it's not an option now that I've posted.

Any chance of getting him into the military? I have had a couple friends that sounded just like your son who joined the military. They both came out changed people. Actually, one decided to stay because he liked how structured everything is. I hope everything works out for you.

I don't have much to offer advice-wise, Dub-D. The thing I want you to know is that I can HEAR your love and concern for him and his future behind every word you've written here.

That's the thing about being tough with a loved one. Sometimes we forget that we're doing that because we love them. It looks like we HAVE to be tough or we say it's because we're sick of being taken advantage of or something--one way or another we turn it into SOMETHING that disempowers us.

I say that to say this: I'm clear you're an amazing mother who loves her son to the ends of the earth, and who (quite understandably, as you said) is at a loss how best to express that love, given the situation.

just for the record, my son exhibited the same behavior and worse and, yes, to be brief and use your term, I kicked him out of the house.
'nuff said.

That sounds about right. It sounds like he's had a number of chances to get his act together while living with you. Maybe it's time he was given the option to sink or swim on his own.

Re: Should I Kick My 20-y.o. Son Out?
 

He's 20. He's no longer a child. Change the locks now.

You may be asking yourself what went wrong, if you could have done anything differently, if it'd been better if you'd gotten tough sooner and been consistently tough. I have no idea.

But I do know that continuing as things are now is not an option. It's wrecking you, and it's not doing anything but enabling and enforcing his behavior. You've got really overwhelming evidence that it's not going to improve. Time to protect yourself and kick him out. Maybe he'll learn out there in the world, maybe he won't; there's a chance. But he's not going to learn anything staying with you. Time to set him entirely loose on his own and let him experience harsh reality.

Re: Re: Should I Kick My 20-y.o. Son Out?
 

agree. he's a fully grown man and should not be living with his mom in the first place, let alone do all these things.

Kick him out, let him get in trouble, and the state can take care of him from now on.

i've know a few mom's deal with similiar scenarios. not to sound like an asshole or pessimis, but they never change. well, almost never.

kick him out, dd. you have other kid(s?) there. they don't need to be around that kind of people. i cannot come close to imagining how much it would hurt to suggest, or better tell him right out, that he must leave. now; or when he gets back.....

there is a time for everything. that is beyond anything short of jail. bad thing is, in jail he'd probably be safer.

the thing that has me worried is. . . . are you safe?

peace be unto you...

I would say that you've done all that you can. There isn't anything more you can do if he is not willing to be responsible for his actions.

I think you should kick him out. Explain to him that you love him, but that enough is enough.

Good luck.

he's old enuf to handle him self. he doesnt goto college and isnt trying to get a job so it doesnt look like he is gonna get better. maybe kicking him out is what he needs to straighten out. either way better for you and better for him.

Gonna tell you straight; KICK HIM OUT!! My son is a true alcoholic; a real hard-nosed boozer; he damned near burned our house down at least five times; one night, he held a gun on me, until I took it away- the list goes on and on; I fially took him to a shelter and signed him in; he put himself through hell for four years, culminating in the whole family standing around a hospital bed, waiting for him to die from exposure, pneumonia, and a couple other things. He didn't die; he's sober now and, at 34, starting a "normal" life. Sounds bad, doesn't it? The truth is, IT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED ANYWAY, NO MATTER WHAT I DID!! I also have three daughters; they are just fine, but they wouldn't have been if my son had stayed with us; he had to learn the hard way. Sometimes you just have to let go, no matter how hard it is; in my sons case, it turned out well- that isn't always true.

Double D,

I am going to echo some of the advice that you have already seen here. But I want to make a second part to the suggestion that will be hard to reconcile with the first. However, I think it is critical.

First, get him out as soon as possible. Do it as unemotionally as you can. The rules were laid out, the consequences were laid out, he didn't follow the rules, the consequences MUST follow.

Second, don't close the door on maintaining contact with him. DO NOT let him expect to move back in, but DO let him know that he can visit you. And, that you would like to visit him. The need for him to move out has nothing to do with your love for him or the need for you to maintain contact.

At this point, he is legally an adult. It is time for him to take responsibility for his actions as an adult.

I suspect that you knew all of this before you posted this thread.

I understand the pain that this is causing you. I am more the willing to listen and help if I can.

Give him one week to find a new place and get out.
If he doesn't move, put all his stuff out in the driveway (call the police if you have to).

He will probably have a hard time moving out, and he will bitch and moan a lot, but that sort of thing fixes itself. At least, it will if he wants to eat.

OK *I'm* 20 years old. I still live with my parents. Granted, I am held to standards and I adhere to them. Any chores I fail to do, I pay through the wallet. I pay for my food, my car, my insurance, my school, my entertainment, and everything else. The only thing I rely on my parents for is this roof over my head. The moment I sense I am putting any more strain on my parents than that, I rush to make things right again. I am an independant person as should any healthy 20 year old be. Parents should have an obligation to hold a roof over their children's heads at that age, but very little else. If your son is not holding his end of the bargain up, you have every justification to drop yours.

Double D: In a situation like this I would usually keep my mouth closed but I have to give you my support in what it sounds like you are planning on doing. I think filing a police report is not only appropriate but completely justified. In highschool I was the biggest strain on my moms life and now at 21 I wish she had kicked me out for some of the shit I did because maybe then I would have listened to her. I knew it was hard for my mom to be hard on me since I was her kid but its better to learn from your parents than it is to learn from the legal system. If he doesnt want to listen to you let him listen to the police. If that doesnt wake him up the responsibility of working for his daily pleasure will. Good luck

DD: I feel for you very deeply. Now, imagine a classroom filled with children just like your son. That's the children I teach. The unteachable. Most everyone seems in agreement with the "kick him out" resolve... however, I know that it's really tough for you to kick him out. You love him regardless of how shitty he can be. But this is where the tough love has to come in. Change the locks on the doors (incase he's made copies of the keys). Be prepared for the worst...

My father's girlfriend kicked her son out when he was about the same age as your son. He staged a break-in and robbery. Since he knew where his mother kept all the good jewelry and other stuff, that's all that was stolen. She knew it was him. All I'm saying is "be prepared for the worst".

Sometimes these things have to be done. If there is ever a time you want to discuss other options, PM me and we can brainstorm something... It's part of my job.

I wish you all the best in this and every dealing with him.

Only one way he'll learn, is having only his own property to trash. I'd kick him out.

I'm not sure if it can be done, but... can you repossess the car if he defualts on paymetn, instead of him? i mean, if you end up paying for it anyway, do you have any legal recource to "take it back" as it were?

good luck, and warm feelings. :)

i would say at 20 if you havnt learned how to respect your parents its time for them to be leaving

Yeah, i think kicking him out is for the best. It might turn out to be the making of him. At the moment he just acting like a little kid. It sounds tough.

It's been a day of waiting to see if my son would return with the car. He hasn't as of yet (1:30 a.m. Central time).

My spouse filed a police report and was asked if my son is found driving it, if we wanted him charged with grand theft auto.
My spouse told the police yes, to arrest him.
So... it's pretty rough right now.

Just to answer a few of your queries:
The military does not want a person without a high school diploma. I believe the US Army could take him, if he tested well for them, but he refuses to consider it.

We have given him lots of last warnings and time limits to get his act together--too many actually, and I know he's banking on this now to happen. It won't.

Everyone that has posted on this today has my deep gratitude. I constantly second-guess myself with this situation and your support has helped me tremendously in taking a stand and sticking with it.

I do love my son--deeply. I was rather young when I had him-- he's my first born, and we went through some tough times together when he was young. He was an amazing little boy-- good student, athlete, well-liked by friends, neighbors, teachers, coaches. But he took a major wrong turn in grade 8, and has been on a downhill slide ever since.
My heart aches for him--all the potential that has gone unused, but it aches as well for his 10 y.o. (half) brother who has sadly, been witness to things a young child shouldn't have to see.

My 20 y.o. son is a man, even if he doesn't behave as one, and it's way past time for him to grow up and to stop using & abusing our patience & love.

Thanks to all of you. You are what makes TFP such an amazing,
real community.

Karma was invented for people like you. Soon we will hear how everything has worked out for the better for you.

I don't have to tell you to be strong, cause you damn well sound like you are.

Kick him out. Some times that's the only way some people will learn.

I had real issues with growing up until I left home and found out how hard it is to live without money. Yeah I got in trouble with the police but I learned from it.

If you've laid down an ultimatum and don't follow through, you're just teaching him that he can continue down the path he's on, and keep putting yourself (and presumably your husband) at risk.

He's 20. He's an adult. If you were asking about a 16 year old I'd say, no, you've got a responsibility to your child to try and straighten them up. At 20, as an adult, you're entitled to say you've done your best, you love him, you'll be there if he wants help to change, but you don't need to put up with his shit any more.

[Edit - alter thinko]

One other thing...
 

Don't waste time second guessing or think "what if", and don't let anyone else do that to you. You sound like a loving parent who's done her best and tried her hardest, and that's the definition of a good parent.

Sometimes kids (of any age) make bad decisions - whole runs of 'em - no matter what their parents do to try and help them.

Save yourself.

If you don't show him the door in no uncertain terms the heartache will continue. He's old enough to know better so he is making a concience choice to take advantage of you. It's a rough world out there but he made the choice so let him experience the world without your support. There is a slim chance that he will grow up.

Don't let your good heart overrule your brain. We're all behind you!

I see so many posts for "Kick Him Out". That would be my inclination as well, because it's easy for me to say...he's not my son. If it were my son, I have no doubts that I would have many trepedations over giving him the boot. It's not as easy as all that. Tough Love...who's it tougher for the child...or the parent. This is flesh and blood we're talking about...not the rotten neighbor's kid, down the street.

I guess in short...I have no answer. Just know that, for what it's worth, you have my sympathies, and I'll be thinking about you. I hope everything works out to a satisfactory conclusion...it's too late to be "O.K."

Ah yes, I supposes it's the *this will hurt me, more than it will you* adage.
It would be so much easier if I didn't love him as a mother, but though there's been times when I wanted to strangle him, I still end up feeling like his mom and though it may be rational to force him to leave, it in no way feels like what a loving parent does.

Quote:

I guess in short...I have no answer. Just know that, for what it's worth, you have my sympathies, and I'll be thinking about you. I hope everything works out to a satisfactory conclusion...it's too late to be "O.K."

Yes it is very much too late to be okay.

Sometime early this morning, our car appeared out front.
Though he kept my car key, he left this note:

I'm really sorry about the car and the way I left the house. I won't make excuses but if I hadn't cleared up my court case (note: used our car with the full tank of gas to drive several hours away) I would have gone to jail. And I still have to go (to court) on Wednesday.
But I've been too stupid with what I've been doing so I'm going to give up now. Bye.

He's nothing if not manipulative.

I believe he's at work now. Whenever he comes back here, he'll be given several hours to pack his gear, then be asked/told to leave.

G_Whiz, thank you for reminding me to stay calm. I've asked my husband to quietly mention a code word to me that we've discussed, if I appear to be getting pulled into my son's sympathy dance.
And, though he probably won't want to hear it, and the feeling rings rather hollow for me right now, I will ask him to please touch base with me when he gets some kind of life going for himself.

Again thanks to all who've taken time to write, both here and to me personally. Your support gives me strength, and when I feel a bit shakey about that, I re-read your comments. They help a lot.

You have my sympathies. My parents raised several of my aunts (some who are close to my age) and one of them was very much like your son. She was a loving child but it started to change when she was about 12 or so.

My parents gave her chance after chance to correct her behavior. They loved her so much it made it nearly impossible for them to throw her out (she was quite manipulative emotionally). It took her stealing their car (hitting my father with the car while doing so) for them to finally kick her out.

It hurt them immensly to do so but she really left them with no other choice that was healthy for them. It'll be hard to be strong and it's going to hurt a LOT but from what it sounds like, you'll be much better off emotionally, financially, etc in the long run this way. Try not to 2nd guess yourself and think 'what if' or 'if only' as that kind of thinking and worry isn't going to do anything positive.

Yes, he used to be your little boy...that's why you love him so. But, he's not a little boy anymore. He's an adult who has conciously decided to make the hurtful, wrong decisions that have driven you to this point. You've gone above and beyond the call of duty for a parent and it's now his turn to live with the repurcussions of his actions. Hopefully, he'll learn something from it when all's said and done. Even if not, you did what you could so have no regrets.

You thank the community here for helping give you support...well, I thank you for sharing your life and times with us... that's also what helps make this such a great community. The trust, affection and support of the TFP is amazing. Glad we're all part of it. :)

Your son sounds a lot like my younger brother. He had stolen thousands of dollars in cash and property from my Mom and I and been in and out of juvenile hall, only to come back and cause more problems. I told my Mom, you have to kick him out, I can't live like this, and you can't live like this. My mom didn't have the heart, so I scavenged every cent I could find and found a shitty apartment on the bad side of town and starved, which made me happier than sharing a roof with him.
My mom finally broke down when my brother tried to kill her with a pair of scissors. He couldn't bring himself to do it, and sort of kicked himself out, this was about 3 years ago.
Things have been really rough for my brother since then, but he's been doing a lot to clean himself up, he's back on speaking terms with the family and he's off drugs. He still can't hold a job very long, but he's working more often than not, I'm still trying to convince him to finish high school. It took the constant threat of death in a gutter to make him set his priorities straight.

The whole situation made my Mom a wreck, as I imagine it's doing to you. It hurt my Mom so much to turn her back on my brother, but he was only going to take advantage of her again. Neither you or your husband deserve what he's putting you through, and your stepson definitely doesn't deserve it.

I hope your son smartens up and you and your family have my sympathy.

wow sounds like a rough time... just stick to everything youve already said... and keep us updated on the situation... were all behind you in this.... good luck in this

I'm not so sure that just enlisting him in the military (and he is 20, and doesn't have to go if he doesn't want to) will solve anything. Its really easy to get kicked out. My advice is to ask this group for suggestions involving some way for him to feel some sense of accomplishment in his life. It is the only way to "straighten" out, IMHO. Anyone out there an expert on human motivation? This to me seems the core of the issue, and, as you have probably guessed, I am not an authority on the matter.
Good luck.

I also question the military enlistment but I know that it saved me. I was on the downhill road, drugs, bad friends, trouble seemed to follow me everywhere. My father told me that I would never amount to anything.

I couldn't hold a job and had no interest and wanted out of this small hick town so I joined the Navy.

That has been absolutly the best decision I ever made in my entire life. The military gave me the discipline I never had before. They also taught me to have some pride in myself and in my work.

I have no idea if he can even get into todays military but he might get a lot more out of it than anyone imagines. The trick would be to get him to try. I think that boot camp alone would help even if he didn't stay in.

My best wishes for you double! My parents pretty much gave up on me but I found my way home as, I hope, a much better person. Birds eventually have to fly alone even if their mother has to push them out of the nest.

You're doing the right thing; that's not always easy, but it IS always right. Lifes a bitch, but I'm glad I made my son go on his journey; I think he's glad too; now he can see a future, not just the next scrape he would get into. It takes time, but it will work out. Good thoughts to you and your husband. Keep us posted on the progress. ;)

Double D,

I know that you asked for advice on this. And, you have thanked us profusely. But, I want to say one thing to you about this thread. It took a hell of a lot of guts to put this up for everyone to see and comment about. I applaud you for that, since we are basically faceless strangers who don't have the contact to express ourselves by look or tone of voice.

I gather that you now know what you are going to do. And, regardless of the choice, it will be hard to do. Trust yourself!!! Take care of yourself!!!

Professionally, you have given advice to others about how to manage. It's time to apply those skills to yourself. One of the biggest problems in the Social Service fields is that the professionals don't take their own advice.

Hang in. You always have friends here, even if we can't reach out and give you a hug when you need it most.

It's funny, though it might have seemed to take guts to ask for help, it really was fear that had me turning to my community here.
I was very much afraid of not being strong enough to deal with this the right way, and I hoped to gain strength from the knowledge and experiences of people here.

I'm still overwhelmed at the outpouring of caring concern, straight up advice, and especially that in trying to help, many of you bared parts of your lives to me--that means so much and it completely overcomes the lack of voice tone and of not being here in person. I'd still like to give and get those in-person hugs, though :) .

Couple of short things, then an update.
One, the car payments that we will have to take over because we co-signed: We can't in any way change the contract with the loan agency to get the car in our name. There was a situation where my son disappeared for three months, not paying his bills of course, and we called the loan company then--no dice.

Two, he's got all kinds of court cases pending. He can't go anywhere, never mind the military, until he deals with them. But I think the result, as he never takes responsibility and he keeps missing court dates and failing to pay fines, is that he may get some jail time.
We've strongly suggested the military several times, and he has talked to a recruiter--took the tests-- and he's bright (on paper, anyway) so he scored well. The recruiter told him, though they didn't take people with only a GED (high school equivalency), there is a loophole in which my son can claim to be *home-schooled.*
When it came down to looking like a reality, my son refused to take calls from the recruiter and now I don't know if his arrest record would prohibit any branch of the armed forces from taking him, but it's moot really, since he won't go.

Update:
We live in a two storey condominium, so he can get in the building. From there he can get in the building's basement/laundry room which connects to our downstairs, and my spouse found him there yesterday, brushing his teeth. My husband demanded my car keys, and then my son fled to a waiting car.

Prior to this, his little brother let him in the house while I was sleeping and after spouse had left for work. (I had stayed awake most of the night before waiting for him, and had finally crashed.)
My 10 y.o. son was unsure of what to do--I'm not sure if my 20 y.o. son told him *not to wake mom,* but even after I got up, he was downstairs in the finished basement, where he has his bedroom and I was never aware of it.
This is another sticky wicket as *Chris,* my youngest, though he's seen much of the crap *Jim* has pulled though the years, still loves his brother and is torn between that and knowing that what Jim is doing is wrong. He tries to walk the line of neutrality, but Jim exploits that, of course.

I talked with Chris yesterday, reenforced that I need to know if Jim is in the house and that none of this is Chris's fault, as little kids will take on guilt for things they have nothing to do with.

We feel fairly sure that we'll need to call the police when Jim decides that he's entitled to be in this home, I'm betting by week's end. Until then, I'm working on keeping my chin up and pushing away thoughts of Jim going hungry or being sick out in the streets.

Some irony:
I left home at age 18 and moved clear across from East coast to West. I had no job skills other than retail and man, was that a lesson learned. For several years, I had to choose between eating and putting gas in the car (so I could get to work--no mass transit in Orange County, CA back then).
So I went hungry a lot. It obviously didn't kill me and it won't him and I did learn from it--that I needed to get skilled and make money to make a life. This hasn't sunk in for him yet because there's been an open door and refridgerator here, as well as a nice bed that he's spent way too much time sleeping in.
That is done now.

It's really painful; it's a deep loss and I know it's going to get worse before (or if) it gets better.

It sounds as if you're moving in the right direction. You need to get more control in this relationship. Your oldest son is dictating all the terms of your relationship. He decides when/if you see him, what the interaction will be, and he takes but only gives back enough to manipulate you.

I'm sure there is a story from his point of view too and we are only getting yours right now. But I feel that whatever story he told, yours would be much closer to the real situation.

I think you may need to be more clear with your youngest son and rather than telling him that you need to know when Jim is in the house, you need to make it clear that Jim is not allowed in the house.

The situation sucks but it can get better. It will not get better unless you take this hard line. Like others who posted here, I have seen this situation before. A close friend has gone down a similar path and remains on it today. His family and friends have all tried to help to no avail. I suspect that he has lost hope. He was an incredibly bright and outgoing person who chose a lifestyle which has led to drug addiction, theft, violence, and massive health problems. Sharing needles and/or unprotected sex has left him with HIV and the Hepatitis alphabet. I seriously doubt he will come out of this spiral. Many of us enabled his behavior and a harder line earlier in the situation may have made a difference (I doubt it but you never know).

I feel for you in this but I also have a sincere belief that it's not too late for your son.

Double D,

Congratulations in doing the hardest part: you acted on your decision. It sounds like you are prepared to stick to your guns; good for you. I'm sorry you have to go through this, but it really is the best thing for your son. As you are well aware, allowing him to stay would make you an enabler, so you are helping him by forcing him to grow up, take responsibility, and become a man. That's a tough journey for any kid. You have only love at the core of this decision, and that will get both you and him through this.

God bless you.

A mother unconditionally loves her children. Kicking him out of the house does not minimize that. His actions are what you do not like, but you still love your son.

Take the time to breathe and keep a clear head about your situation. Remember you are doing what you need to do for you and him.

I still don't know why he came home to brush his teeth. WTF was that? OOoh I can't go anywhere because I don't have my toothbrush?

Some very enlightened Judges have in the past given men like your son a choice: jail time or join the military. Unfortunately it seems that your son has no respect for authority, so the odds of this working, or even getting him into court to face a judge, are long. My sympathies, DD.

The reasons Jim does what he does, usually boil down to manipulation to get what he wants.

I'm hoping that things will be calmer here as I found him in the house again today--remember he still had the condo building key--and he somehow got in thru the basement.

He was in a fetal postion, totally swaddled in his bedspread, sleeping, it seemed. I told him he had to leave now-- to give me the keys and a cordless phone that he swiped. He refused, because we would *throw all (his) stuff out.* He then demanded that I give him his marijuana pipe back before he would give me the building keys! Imagine, his whole life is hanging by a thread and his main priority is getting high! Argh!

I told him to get up and get out and he started in with his sad song about nothing mattering anymore and why should he try and blah, blah, blah. I've heard this so many times over the years. Oh, and he lost his brand-new job.

Yes, he's clinically depressed and he knows exactly the choices he has to get help.
He explained to me how unfair I was being, after all, he brought back our (stolen) car, right?

At that point, I realized he was sucking me into his crazy-ass way of thinking. I muttered something about not ever imagining that someone like him would spring from my womb, and I left the room, came upstairs & called my spouse at work, as we'd agreed if this scenario transpired. Husband works only about 5 minutes away, so he was here quickly.

Younger son and I waited outside (we had been on our way to go swimming, when this whole little soap opera scene started to play out). Moments later, Jim came storming out the front door, saying he *couldn't believe* how he was being treated.

Younger son & I left for the pool and husband inspected the locks on the house, as well as the windows to determine where the breach was. While doing this, Jim returned--he'd left his car & house keys here. He insisted that we must have taken his keys, but within a minute or two my spouse located them on the floor, amidst the vast pile of crap in the bedroom Jim used. Spouse removed the building keys, which is big relief, as it would have been sticky as well as expensive, to bring the condo association into this.

So, right now I feel a mixture of relief, weariness & sadness.
I told him I wished him well-- my husband told him of an area homeless shelter, but there's nothing more we can or should do right now.

Someone mentioned that Jim has his side to this and of course, that's true. When he was a child, I overcompensated for his lack of a father by spoiling him-- that did him no favors at all. After I got involved with my current spouse, I interfered with my spouse's attempts to parent Jim-- that was a huge disservice to them both.

Yeah, I've made some decent-sized mistakes in my life, both as a parent and as a person. But Jim went to good schools, got all the basics -- there was never a lack of love or support or encouragement. Kids with much less don't always turn out like he did.

I feel for you, DD.

I know it's hard but you did the right thing for him, and for you. He has to start being responsible for his own life.

Hang in there.
*hug*

You know, this reminds me of an old parable. You never know when the story ends.

One day a farmer found a beautiful stallion standing in his field. Nobody knew where it came from or how it got there. People all said how lucky he was that this horse came to him. He said, "Well, you never know when the story ends."

A week later the horse was mysteriously gone. People said how unlucky this was. The farmer said, "Well, you never know when the story ends."

A week later the horse was back, and with it was <i>another</i> stallion, <i>equally</i> beautiful. People remarked how very lucky the farmer was, but he just said, "Well, you never know when the story ends."

The next week the farmer's son was riding one of the stallions, and was thrown from the horse and broke his leg. How unlucky everyone said, but the farmer said, "You never know when the story ends."

The next week a war broke out. All of the healthy young men were drafted into the army, and many of them were killed, but because of his broken leg, the farmer's son was saved. People said how lucky this was. The farmer said, "You never know when the story ends."

The point is, it's grim now, and it looks like the end of everything. But you never know how it's <i>really</i> going to turn out. When you look back on this thirty years from now and see that throwing him out was <i>exactly</i> the thing to turn his life around, you might very well say... <i>you never know when the story ends</i>!

Double D, are you going to be letting him keep the car that you're co-signed to and making payments on?

Glad you were able to handle everything so well. He seems to be a 1st class drama queen/manipulation specialist. I don't know if I would have been able to keep my cool like that.

It goes like this. In the two years he's had it, he has totally trashed the car. What was once a nice-looking Olds Cutlass Supreme, is now as we call 'em in this part of the States, a beater.

We strategized tonight on the best action to take.
Because of his many current traffic violations, including his pending drunk driving charge, and his unwillingness to face the judges, we are quite sure that he'll be in jail soon. He gets ticketed by the police at least once per month for things like parking violations & running stop signs, then compounds it by not carrying proof of insurance & registration & so forth.

When he's picked up next, he'll be jailed due to the warrants, and at that time the police should run a check on the plates, realize that we co-own the car, and give us a call.

sounds like the story is being driven by you now. Keep the faith and stay strong.

All parents make mistakes. Mine did, I'm sure yours did. All you can ask is they love you and do their best. It sounds like you've done that.

More to the point, there's a point in our lives when we have gotten beyond being able to lay the blame for our parents' mistakes for the things in our lives that go wrong. One of my wife's uncles, in his 50s, still rags on his (90!) year old mother about this, that and the other. What an absolute load of crap; if we want to be treated as an adult, we have to act like one, and that includes taking responsibility.

Well you seem to be doing the right thing......it's not gonna be a easy task by any means. Hopefully he will be locked up soon and you will not have to worry about it anymore.

Double D, I've been reading this thread since you started it. I haven't commented becuase I really don't have any specific advice or experiences to offer. I was hoping you'd follow through and kick him out as it seems you don't have any other options.

It is his choice and I hope for the both of you he starts making better ones. I imagine it'll get worse before better, but I sincerely believe you've done the right thing. Don't beat yourself up when it does get worse because you've done the right thing. Don't beat yourself up about the past because you've done the right thing. Spend that energy on his brother. Sounds like your husband has been supportive take a second to tell him you appreciate that if you do.

As an early thirties single male I feel like there isn't much I say. I can only imagine how you feel. I just wanted to say I think you've done the right thing and wish you the best.

Tough Love hurts..

He'll either straighten out or he won't..

i assume you've alwasy done your best to teach him right and wrong.. If so. you've done your joba dn it's tiem for him to face up toe th eworld and he place in it.

You are a doormat. You have let things go on for WAY too long. You owe him nothing!!

It is time for him to "sink or swim." The longer you keep him under your roof, the more he will not appreciate the things you do for him.

My suggestion, KICK HIM OUT....Tonight, no... NOW!! Change the locks, and tell him it is time, he was responsible for his actions. Look away!! You owe him nothing more. Give him moral support ONLY if he asks for it, and NEVER support him financially again. I can't stress this enough...NEVER give him financial support. This is going to be the toughest thing you do, but he REALLY needs it. He will learn to be responsible once he has to fend for himself.

I was never as bad as your son, but my parents did the same thing, and I will tell now, it was the best thing they EVER did. To this day my parents do not give me anything but moral support, and we get along GREAT now. I worked odd jobs for a few years and realized that life was not all fun and partying. I finally woke up and matured, put myself through college and got a great job that everyone could be proud of. Sounds to me like your son is similar to me in that we both had to learn responsibility and consequences of our actions the hard way.

He will either do one of 2 things, he will become a loser, end up in jail and have no future, or he will wisen up and realize that this is not the kind of life he wants to lead and mature and finally do something to change his demeanor.

This is not something that can be taught ANY other way other than to just cut the strings. It will be hard to turn your back, but for your sake and his....DO IT!!!

My 2 cents...

Feel free to PM me if you want any more details...

D,
I also thought I would offer my words of support as well. I'm sure what you're going through is rough, but it will pass, and hopefullt he will realize the mistakes he is making. I think you are doing the right things, and I hope it does turn out well. Please keep us informed and I hope that if we can be of more moral support, you will gladly come calling.

Good job!

You weren't doing anyone any favors by letting him take advantage of you. Stay strong.

Ugh--well I'm afraid my strong will faltered last night.

It was a coolish day (like today, Chicago's had no summer weather, this summer ) and I left a window open. It's not ever been normal practice to lock the front windows, except at night, so I don't do it automatically.

Jim came in through the window while no one was here, and scrounged some food.
He was surprised however, by his stepfather's early return from work and fled, apparently out the back door, leaving a small bag of granola bars and juice boxes behind.

The first words out of my husband's mouth when I got home were, * I caught Jim in the house.* The contents of the bag of food were spread on the kitchen counter like trophies, and his tone was almost gleeful.

I didn't say anything, but as time passed and the almost-stolen food remained on the counter, I asked my spouse when he was going to remove it.
When he finally gathered the food up, my will gave out.

I told my husband that he seemed to be enjoying this, and asked him if he realized that it (the whole situation, not just this incident) was hurting me a lot?
He hadn't a clue. He never paid close enough attention to put together that perhaps I was just a bit sad/upset about this whole thing.

Words flew back & forth when I later found him sealing the windows closed permanently, as I'm not adult enough to keep them locked at all times.

I was angry that he didn't discuss this with me, he saw no point in that--apparently getting out, should there be a fire--or just getting some fresh air, were not high on his *important things* list.
So it went on.

I was really bummed out last night and wanted to take up some folks on their generous offer of a shoulder to lean on--but my IP provider went belly up from last night until this afternoon. Great timing!

My husband & I are still not seeing eye to eye. He has never loved my son, and he doesn't understand how I can still be bothered by all of this.
I try not to be-- but I have my weak moments. I don't want my son coming into the house to steal food, so I am sealing up things tight when going out, but this is very difficult all 'round.

Has he always been this sensitive?

I take it you are being facetious.

Yeah, I chose a spouse that, according to his former therapist, would have best been suited to being a forest ranger, so he wouldn't have to interact with people. :confused:

I'm a fairly average woman in terms of emotions--okay--maybe a bit on the spunky side--so I thought we balanced out. Generally, it's a pretty uneventful relationship, but when I need emotional support, it's silly to ask for it from him.

Let's just say that what you posted as his response made me wonder where he left his brains. I'm sorry.

In fairness, I'm sure he sees me as irrational, emotional, & weak.
He's sick of dealing with a kid that's not his own and he's sick of my caving in over the years and forgiving my son.

In truth, I shouldn't have married--anyone--but we have a 10 y.o. son together (we married when *Christopher* was 2 y.o.) and since as I said, there is little conflict in general (veneer of normal family), I believe in hanging in--I made my choices & I get to live with 'em-- and my youngest son is such a great kid. I figure that's the real reason that this odd union occured.

Given that he probably thinks you've now reached an understanding similar to the one he holds, I expect he thought you'd have his attitude about it. However, expecting you to resent your son, or whatever, is ridiculous. At least, as much as a guy with no kids (me) can understand it. You're applying a different level of discipline, which involves kicking him out of the nest. That hardly says you dislike the kid, given how you're suffering over the decision. I wonder if your husband understands that.

This is the first time I've said my two cents over this time-period.

DD, your job as a mother right now is to "mother" the boy you have at home right now.
Not to "mother" a young man, who obviously needs to learn how to be a "man", an adult.
To take responsibility for his actions.

This is his job, not yours
No matter how much you love him.
And if you did love him, you would allow him the freedom to make his mistakes
AND take the consequences for them.

See, this is the final gift that a parent does for a child.
Letting them go.

That freedom, to make the difficult transition, to an adult.
That freedom, to determine their own fate.

You've done all you can, now it's time to give him that freedom, let go.
Focus your attention now on the one who needs it, your younger son.
He needs your energy & guidance.
And since he's under your care, he has to listen.

Your older son, is an adult, he doesn't have to listen.
Thus, he is free to make his own decisions AND mistakes.
You are not responsible for this, let go.
Let him be free.

My mother had to do the same for me, and now I respect what she did
despite the difficulties I went through.
I am proud to be my own man now.
And the gift she gave me, was pushing me to be free.
Pushing me to fly.

Give him the last gift of a parent. Freedom
Flying or falling will be on his wings alone.
Otherwise you are doing him a disservice.

This is the PURPOSE of a parent.
This is the TRUE love of a parent,
the last & true gift.

I got my ass booted, personally. Can't say I was that disrespectful, but I was definitely lazy and selfish. Best thing that ever happened to me. :)

Double D -- this is the first time I've seen this thread as I've just gotten back from 3 weeks vacation.

I would like to share my story with you! At age 15 1/2 my step-son returned to our home state to go thro drug rehab. He had lived with us for 3 years and mom for 1 1/2 years. Upon successful complition of drug rehab he returned to our home to visit for 2 weeks. With one hour to go until he was to get on the plane and return "home" his mother called and said, "you may not come home." We had a VERY ANGRY child on our hands! He soon began to threaten me ("you better watch every move you make you fucking bitch as I'm going to slice you to death one of these days.") I called his biological mom and begged her to take him back as we had 4 other children in the house. She refused and told me I was getting what I deserved. Dad, being the loving parent, refused to see the truth and son was manipulative enough to only threaten me -- and our 4 year old daughter -- when dad wasn't around. This only went on for 1 week. I knew that I could not and would not live in fear! I told my husband that the son was no longer welcome in my house. They moved out -- disappearing for a week before I was able to even find my husband. It took a lot of counseling and patience for my husband to forgive me. We found a place for son to live, and husband moved home 3 months later.

Within another month, the "gay couple" that son was living with was "coming on" to him. (Another lie? I don't know.) My protective mother side came out and we allowed him to move back home. He broke the rules by getting high in less than a week. We were ready to fly him to mom (we would call her when he was in flight taking away her freedom to say no). He begged for another chance. Interestingly, the 2 other children -- including his twin -- who were old enough to understand what was happening said, "kick him out." The siblings want boundaries!!!!! However, I, like you, couldn't give up on "my child." We came up with a contract, laying out 24 points that he had to meet in order to stay with us. Then he was given the choice between the "family plan" and the "airline plan." He chose the family plan. He tested every point within the next 2 weeks. Every time a test came my response was, "you have a choice." He ultimately followed the plan until he was 18 years old.

At 18 he immediately broke the rules (1 month from high school graduation.) My response, "I love you and I have raised you to adulthood. You have one month after graduation to move out." He was very angry and moved out the next day. He spread it all around the neigborhood that I took apart his bed and kicked him out. People were actually calling the authorities on me for child abuse. (Not easy for a teacher to go through.) But I stuck with my guns and did not allow him back in the house. It was the most difficult 3 1/2 years in my life - especially facing abuse charges!

Today this son is in the service. He enlisted after trying to make it on his own for 2 years -- and not being able to. He had to live with friends and on the streets. He often went hungry. He was very angry! We continued to "love" him by allowing him to visit -- but he was not allowed in our house without us there! Our other children supported us 100% as we had a "family meeting" and laid out the rules and consequences.

I got a call from this son just last week. His father and I are divorced now -- and he still calls me! And I was the "bad guy." He thanked me for all that I've done to support him "growing up." And he says, "you will always be my mom."

Making the tough call is not easy! However, it can pay off! Stick with your guns. And if you want to chat further -- email me -- I would welcome the opportunity to support you further. I know this is the most difficult thing you will ever go through! God bless!

*hug*


that's all I can do right now, but...

I wish you the best of luck with all this. Im sure its really tough for you, but im sure things will sort themselves out in the end, hopefully with him getting picked up, and given some help with his problems.

I'm glad that you love your son..... love him more by giving him that little nudge out of the nest... he'll fly... he will... it might be crooked, it might not be as high as you can, but he will.

Hey, good luck. Stay strong with your resolve, also try not to let the issue divide you from the other aspects of your life and the others in your family.

I am glad to hear that Christopher is handling this as well as can be for now (or you may want to check up on more of this). Be kind to yourself and don't let this become the one thing your whole life is about.

You are not responsible for what he has ultimately become, and only in time and through his own independent struggles can he possibly become a better person.

Take care.

wow what a carpy stuation best wishes double d


i can only imagine how hard this must be for you

DD, you need to ask yourself if you're doing another disservice to your husband? While he is coming across as a "cold fish", it may be that he has decided that there has to be one solid rock of consistency in the household where *Jim* is concerned.

Coming from my own personal experience with one of my Uncles - a 50-year-old alcoholic and layabout who also has, "...this sense of entitlement paired with a real lack of conscience for his actions." - I found that it was up to my mother and myself to take on those roles; Mom for her siblings and her own mother, while I did so for the next generation (who was still impacted by his actions at holiday get-togethers). It was the two of us who spent countless hours discussing, debating, wishing it was otherwise and finally it was I who really had to be the rock for my mother (and thereby everybody else).

I would say that yes, your husband really does not have a vested interest in Jim and that yes, his views regarding him will differ GREATLY from your own. However, as a man who has dated several women with children, I can honestly say that I have never entered into a committed relationship with any of them without the full realization that the children are a key component of just who these women are - and that loving the woman means loving the child.

Allow me to suggest that you and your husband sit down and discuss why your views differ. I find it truly hard to believe that your husband is as cold-hearted as that toward *Jim* as your post would lead me to think.....He would have to be of the "Cinderella's wicked stepmother" variety for that to be the case! Explain that this is tearing you up inside, and that from time to time your will is going to falter; you have known *Jim* every second of his life, and two decades of being in the Mother Role - as opposed to just being Mom (the title) is not something you can shrug off blithely.

I really do believe that you will be surprised to find that he not only understands your feelings about this, but also has taken the most difficult part (i.e.- the "rat bastard" role) on to spare you any greater pain than is to be had already.

You married your husband for a reason (and I have a hunch it was for more than just sticking with your actions - child or no child); I highly doubt you would still be married if there wasn't love there. Without love, there's no real example to set for *Chris*, is there?

Love your sons. But expect the grown-up ones (even if it's only physically and legally) to become adults.

I was a bit harsh in my assessment of my marriage. To be blindingly honest, it's no better or worse than most. Overall, my spouse has been a good dad to our son Christopher, as well.

I am conpletely amazed at the unity of responses here. Almost without exception, each of you has said, *set him free, push him out of the nest, it's time to stop protecting him, let him find his own way now.*

You all have given me a great gift--your kind support. I re-read your resposes--all of them--most every day.
Each one helps me be a stronger person. I'm not glad that so many of you have had experiences that somehow parallel mine, but it seems what you have gone through, has made you wiser. I am grateful to you for sharing your wisdom with me.

{{hugs}}
---DD

Update
 

The situation with my son is unknown at present, other than the maintenance man found evidence of him sleeping in the basement of the building--on newspapers--pretty sad. We are guessing since he used to live here, that he waits for someone to enter the building, then just follows them in (as we've recovered the keys from him). I checked last night though, and he wasn't down there, so maybe he's moved on (I hope). We are very reluctant to inform the condo association, as we could get ourselves in major hot water over this.

Today, the lifeguard told me that she's seen him once as he went into the poolhouse to shower--but other than that, no contact with him.

I try not to think about him as I'm sure he's having a very rough go of it, but I can't help him anymore and if I did, he'd just use/abuse my sympathies again.

Update
 

While I was at at the TFP Chicago Meet Up last night, a phone call came in from my son. He was at a local police station, having been picked up, and was being readied for transfer to our town's P.D. today, as he has warrants out for many traffic violations/failures to appear in court.

His plea, which was left on the answering machine, was that we drop a couple hundred bucks to get his car out of impoundment and he'd pay us back because he has a paycheck coming, etc.

His messes just seem to multiply exponentially.

be strong... I know a small part of you wants to pick up the phone and your wallet... strength.

I have to commend you on how you handled this situation.

I know, and am friends with many people who have had problems like that and much worse, and came out to be a stronger and better person than living a normal life could have ever made them.

I am trying to be strong and I don't feel I deserve to be commended, but I thank you (both), just the same.
I feel like somewhat of a coward, as I erased the phone msg. from my son without listening to it.

I also feel safer knowing he's in jail in terms of his not being able to bust in here and take what he wants.
I am relieved, that for the moment he's safe, with food & shelter.
Once the system gets moving fully though, he'll be in Cook County Jail--among the most notorious of it's type in the nation.

My mother didn't bail me out Double D, and it taught me a huge life lesson. In time things will straighten out. He'll realize that there is more to life, than hurting his family and hurting himself. Reading through this thread, it is plain to see that you love your son and you are a good mother. You have done your part, and I have faith that things will come around for your whole family. Sometimes it just takes a little longer than you could have hoped for. In due time, Double D.

Fortunately/Unfortunately I doubt he will be in for all that long as the system tends to be quite lenient on the lighter crimes. You've done well in changing the boundaries with your son. The rest is up to him.

How is your other son handling everything?

D, I'm so sorry. I know how hard this is for you. Just know that you are doing the right thing - explain it to him if it will make you feel better, that you are doing this because you love him and you want him to have his own, happy life and first he needs to learn to take care of himself. It may not sink in now, but just knowing that he knows you love him because you told him so might make you feel better.

I don't know what else to say. The situation sucks - he's really put you in a difficult position, having to choose between your instincts to help him and keep him safe, and your desire to make him into a self-sufficient, responsible person. I really do think you're doing him a favor, though, by showing him that his actions do have consequences. It might take some pretty scary stuff to get him to internalize that, and I wish you the strength to go through them with him.

*hugs*

Thank you for asking :).
He is doing fine. He turns eleven in three days and is quite excited about that.
Oddly, he's never shown a real emotional reaction to his older brother's antics.
He's quite a diplomat, and hasn't treated Jim in a negative way, even when he's done quite appalling things. Part of that I'm sure, is brotherly love, which goes both ways with those two. (Believe me, I'm thankful for that).

A few days after this latest chapter started two weeks ago, Chris & I were chatting while on our way to the pool. I was *checking in* with him to see how he was doing emotionally.
He indicated to me that the topic of his brother and all the chaos had gotten quite boring. I agreed with him and asked him to please remind me if I bring it up on a too-frequent basis, as there are plenty of more interesting topics to discuss. He smiled, and agreed.

You're a good mom, DD. Don't ever doubt that for a minute. Sadly, the desire to become an individual - meaning someone quite distinct from the influences of one's parents - can result in some hard life lessons. But that doesn't mean that you haven't been a good parent. Unfortunately, with individuality comes the ability to make the *wrong* decisions; it is the down-side of being your own person, I guess.

I'm pulling for you, your family, and especially *Jim* as this unfolds....consider yourself permanently hugged.

double d i just got my son out of jalil friday. he has traffic violations in 3 different towns here where we live
he has been in jail since june 3.i was paying his fines but stopped and told him i will not do it any more,so he ended up going to jail.i left him there hoping he would get his shit together.he has over 3000 dollars in fines.anyway friday i went ant put up 700 dollars to get him out.when he got out i told him that he will be with me all the time no seeing his buddies that influnce him.i farm and he is now working with me and that will continue until i know he has changed. he just turned 21 a good worker but he is not a leader but a follower.i am not going to lose him to the bunch he hangs with so for now he is a farmer LOL.

Sounds like an excellent relationship. Glad to hear that he has good things that are focused on him upcoming. Also great to hear that he's not feeling short shifted in all this.

Stay strong and focus on the good things.

Hi rooster,

I hope your son shows his gratitude for your huge generosity by working his tail off on the farm.
Maybe he'll take pride in his work and won't need the bunch he used to follow.
I wish you the very best. I know this isn't easy for you.
Please feel free to PM me at any time.

--DD

Report the car stolen and kick him out.

He's got to see the repercussions of his actions. He may go to jail - and that may be hard for you to live with.

He'll live.
You'll live.

It's time he learned to be an adult.

Hardest thing a parent can ever do is let go.

edit>>>>>> dang replied before I noticed there were 2 pages of responses and updates on the situation.

Just pretend this is on page 1 :rolleyes:

DD, as many have said what you're doing is no doubt hard, but it's necessary. My mom told me at an early age that at age 18, I'm out of the house (unless I'm going to a local college, then I'd have to pay rent to live at home) and if I ever got into any trouble with the law then I'm on my own. She told me I wouldn't get any bail, gifts, packages, money. She also told me not to call her.

I accepted it and I knew she wasn't joking.

Not to make light of your mom's statement, but that line must come from an ancient parenting handbook somewhere (my own mother said the same thing--almost to the word), as you and several others have recounted how their parents too, told them--go to jail, you're on your own.

I think that to some extent this shows how times have changed. It used to be that parents sided with the police and were all for letting their kid spend the night in jail if they were out causing mischief. However, as times have changed, people have begun to distrust the police and in many ways they have almost become the enemy. Now when someone’s child is arrested the first thought seems to be that the police have done something wrong. Sort of the opposite of how it was.

One thing that struck me with your first post (I've read through them all) was that you were searching for justification to kick your son out. I'm glad that you decided to do so because as everyone else in here noted it was more or less the only option. The thing is, most people here seem to focus on what's best for him, but the guy is 20. He has to live his own life and you have to live your own life. I was just about to say that you're allowed to be selfish, but that's not even it as you most certainly don't sound selfish, but you have to be allowed to be yourself and it seems that your son have seriously invaded your life in a way he shouldn't.

The one thing that is important for you to say to yourself though is that you were 100% justified in doing what you did. Would it be easier for him to be at home and continue to "leech" on you? Most certainly. Would it be better for you? No. Despite all the stress you're going through now (and your bitter comments towards your husband earlier in the thread shows that it's a great deal) it's going to get better. Will it get better for your son? Hopefully, but even if he, god forbid, doesn't make it, you must never blame yourself. There's only so much a human can do and you have done more than most...

Good luck and a little kiss from me :icare: