pai mei

Would you kill and steal - if there was no law - meaning no police ?
"No, not me! But others sure would! I need police!"
Why are you in a thing called "country" with others that would do that ?
"What can I do about it, that's that"
No. This thing, called "modern country" does not exist. It's a Frankenstein, it's pieces glued together. It needs force - police, to keep it from breaking apart. It needs power - just to keep adding more pieces to itself. And all must fit - all must become a part of IT, no matter who they are!
It was not always like this:
Growing through the asphalt
You see - a group of people joining together. They need no laws - to prevent them from stealing from one another. That's how people used to live. That's what we (mostly when young), try to form. That's our nature, that's what we seek.
Nothing wrong with lots of people - on a big territory. If they have the same culture of freedom, they need no state and no laws. They can call themselves a "country". They will have no beggars, no homeless, no orphans. They are a real "country".

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Cimarron29414

This concept sounds like that Ayn Rand book roachboy keeps pimping.

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Cynthetiq

It just doesn't work with large scales of population. If you'd like to live in a little village, by all means. I want the trappings of urban life and all that come with that, from public transportation to surly exchanges, crime and punishment, to jobs and cultural diversity and lifestyle diversity.

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ASU2003

It doesn't work with 'advertising' and 'rare' things. Scarcity is the problem, and it can be caused by too much demand, too many people, or not enough people who know how to make it.

The police and the law are there to investigate crimes and fill out reports. In order to work better, individuals need to avoid situations where they can be taken advantage of, protect themselves, and work toward reducing demand by increasing supply.

Nobody is doing to 'steal' water out of the ocean.

Shadowex3

That's a romanticized myth. The only difference between then and now is that now you go through the courts and prison system and back then you got whatever everyone around you thought was fair, which could sometimes be more lenient but could just as easily be a whole lot worse. Do you really think that there wasn't mob justice back then?

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pai mei

No, there was no mob justice. There was no mob. People lived between friends.Knew each other since they were little. A group of friends will try to solve the situation - not to punish.
You have no idea what I am talking about. For sure you never experienced - even for a little time, a "society" - even if it was small, where you could trust all the people around you. With everything you have. A family - but bigger. That's our natural state. That organization is alive. It tries to appear everywhere. Like grass through the asphalt. On the asphalt. It does not care - about the conditions around, like life it appears, wherever it can. You can see it growing, Civilization is dead, it's Frankenstein. When the power fails, Frankenstein dies. New York 1977. Not because people are "evil", just this is not natural.

http://www.cantrip.org/gatto.html

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bagatelle

I wish I could remember better - I saw a British tv-documentary a while ago. It's just impossible to live the same way in a small society than with a large group of people. There's a limitation to how many people you can actually know well and care for, I think they were talking about the range from 50 to 100.

They demonstrated their claims by showing how in a big city people would pass a stranger (an actor) lying in the street. An example from a small village showed a woman picking a letter beside a mail box and posting it, obviously thinking, it was dropped by someone she might know and wanted to help this way.

I believe that even in a small society, eventually someone may develop to become more dominant and start ruling the others.


Edit: I'm not sure if the program called 'Would you save a stranger?' is the same I'm talking about, since I can't view it online.

Shadowex3

You mean like, say, the Amish?

Again, your view of historical communities as some kind of utopia are a romanticized myth. I doubt anything larger than a handful of people could ever function like that and even then it was likely rare. The rich and the clergy got away with basically anything, rape victims were blamed for their victimization, drunkards could beat their wives and children as much as they wanted and all of this went on silently ignored because of the "community". If anything DID finally get to be too much to ignore... well they were at the mercy of the mob.

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GreyWolf

The concept of everybody working for the common good, building a society for the benefit of all is viable ONLY at the subsistence level. Humans are social beings, and not particularly well equipped to survive as a species as individual or very small communities. Using the Maslow hierarchy, once the physiological needs are met, the all-for-one-&-one-for-all concept begins to break down. I'm no longer hungry and I have shelter; now I want your spear because it's better than mine. With progression up the hierarchy comes the need for more formal regulation in order to prevent the breakdown of the burgeoning society. Government becomes necessary.

Are any of the current forms of government perfect? Of course not - I am not yet the supreme ruler (the only form of government that I see as ideal). But regardless of the form, the governance is needed in order to prevent a return to the subsistence level of existence.

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pai mei

Shadowex, you are talking about civilized people. Here:
Growing through the asphalt: Free people

GreyWolf, nobody is working for the "common good". Can you imagine that ? Still - the stay together. Do you, and your friends work "for the common good" ? Why are you together then ? Do you have a leader that orders you around ? Or - the most respected one, says something, he is listened to - but he cannot give orders. That - is natural for humans.
Your theory - cannot explain Hells Angels, or - any group of friends today.

Growing through the asphalt: Emma Goldman

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GreyWolf

Pai_Mei... you miss the point of my post. Beyond the subsistence level of society, where people band together to fight off the elements/predators/other dangers, the working for the common good won't happen by itself. You're right, people don't work for the common good of the world/nation/ethnic group/religion. It's not natural. That is why societies have become more structured, with some form of regulatory body (government) establishing the rules, and an enforcement arm (police/army) to make sure that the structure of society is upheld.

Groups like Hell's Angels start out at the subsistence level, banding together to rebel against the societal norms they find unacceptable. As they get larger, they find that the disgust/non-acceptance of those social conventions begins to decay as the unity of purpose is diffused over the larger group (society). Soon, rules/regulations arise, and enforcement through social stricture begins. Don't think for one instance that Hell's Angels or any other gang, cult, or social group don't follow the basic rules of societal growth.

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Zeraph

I only care about law because its needed/works/keeps me fairly safe, and because of consequence. If it was anarchy I'd like to think I'd still have principles but its hard to say for sure. I'd imagine it'd depend on how I was raised in this hypothetical anarchy world.

Shadowex3

Greywolf check the author on the links he's posting, I think he's just advertising his blog, that's why his posts are just finding ways to link to there instead of... discussing.

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pai mei

Hells Angels - unlike "civilization" do not force me to join them. They do not make me pay taxes, go to school - when I am too little to know what's going on.

Would you be bad, evil, with no laws ? Not - to your friends and family. What about towards strangers ?
Let's say you have lots of friends, and they are all near, and you have everything you need, and you feel ok. Civilization is gone. There are no laws, but you don't need them, you would not steal from or kill your friends. Or rape their wives... Stuff like that. Think laws prevent you from that ? We are not machines.
And you meet a stranger. He has no friends (tribe). He is just passing by. He is afraid (it's a Mad Max world) Kill him ? Rob him ? Just like that ?
Of course there will be "evil" people. And evil groups. You can tell a group is evil - and nothing good can come from them - when they need laws, and force (police) - inside the group else they disintegrate. When there is only one commander, and the rest do as he says - or get punished. Where not their own self respect, but fear of law keeps them from disintegrating. Where some are rich and others starve. Where some own land and others are slaves. And they still dare call themselves a "nation". This is - civilization today. And it's spread over the entire planet.

Growing through the asphalt: Life
Growing through the asphalt: Ancient lives

Forgot to say, the evil group will force all children - into a 12 year prison sentence, at age 6 or 7. When the simple "I have the guns you do the work" - is too obvious, and they try to look good. To make it clear to them "how things are". And the children - will submit. They won't fight back, most of them (too small). "See, no violence here!" will say the rulers. And the parents will submit - "that's how things are" they will say

The Six-Lesson Schoolteacher, by John Taylor Gatto
Molding Minds - Ascent of Humanity

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