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Old 04-26-2010, 07:22 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Having MAJOR second thoughts about graduate school

For the past 4 years, I have been contained entirely within a tunnel headed for graduate school to the near-exclusion of everything else in my life. Early in my college career, I had it instilled in me that a BA in Psychology was essentially worthless and to strive for at least a MA if I wanted to do anything with it. Now that time is quickly approaching. I was accepted into multiple MA programs in Psychology and have made my choice entirely based on a promise that there is a CHANCE I can get my out-of-state tuition waived. However, assuming that falls through, I will owe $50,000+ in loans at the end of 7 years in college and graduate school and I feel no better off in my chances of getting a job than if I would have spent those 7 years earning and collecting money.

I honestly am really scared for the first time in my life that I will be making a dire mistake that will be a significant financial burden to overcome. I loathe the idea of loans and going into debt and having to play catchup with your life. It wouldn't be so bad if I were on a set career track where I would be guaranteed a position as a Physician or Surgeon after spending so much time and money, but I highly doubt I will head into a higher-earning position after plunking down so much on the fuzzy ambiguity that follows graduate school.

I always appreciate advice and listening to as many different perspectives as I can, but especially now as I think this will be the biggest decision of my life (certainly up to now). I suppose $50,000 isn't so much when you look at it over the grand scale of 40+ years of earnings, but I am less convinced that doing so will improve my life much if I choose not to.
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Old 04-27-2010, 04:11 AM   #2 (permalink)
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$50,000 is nothing. I'm $30,000 in debt from undergrad and it's a very small portion of what I pay every month in bills. $50,000 is a good deal for undergrad and a MA IMO. Go for it, it's not a waste of money. There's no getting around debt. Once you graduate if you buy a house then you're $150,000 in debt. Then a car, $20,000 more. That's just how things work. It seems overwhelming while you're in college (I know it seemed like that to me too) but it's not as big of a deal when you graduate and get any decent job.
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
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i just dropped $137,000 on a home renovation. Plus I have $14,000 left to pay on a $43,000 vehicle. That's all spent money. Most likely the home reno will provide decent equity in the future.

Manageing life will most likely entail being able to manage debt. Your educational costs may seem insurmountable now (and from a Canadian perspective almost usurious) but they are an investment in your potential. For example, if I didn't invest in a university degree and subsequently a college diploma, I would not be in the position to be able to incure such a debt as my home renovation.

As Lasereth pointed out, once you graduate and get a job, the $50 grand will seem like a small price to pay for the leverage. It just appears to be overwhelming now.
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:57 AM   #4 (permalink)
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It all comes down to this: what are the measurable benefits of such an MA in terms of your employability and earnings potential? Are employers looking for such degrees? Are they scaling up the compensation for those who hold them?

Do the research. Find out what people are looking for.

Don't get an advanced degree unless you're either a) passionate about it, b) certain it contributes to a specific career track or position, or c) both.
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Old 04-27-2010, 06:03 AM   #5 (permalink)
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It isn't $50K. It's $50K + 3 more years of earning potential. So, let's suppose you get our of school with a BA in Psych. Most likely, you get a job as a state-funded counselor and earn (for example) $40K. In 3 years you have grossed $120K.

...No you haven't, you were in grad school. So, you now have $170K to make up. So, you get out of school with $50K in debt plus $120K in lost earnings. If you get a job as a...guess what...state-funded counselor and make $44K because of the masters, it will only take you 30 years to make up the lost wages if you never receive a raise. So, let's factor in raises (and that your masters will get you better raises) and knock it down to 15 years. So, you will spend the first 15 years of your career BREAKING EVEN on wages, not to mention the student loan.

But wait, there's more. Because of the debt and the 3 years of no wages, you have delayed the front-end loading of your 401K - the place where the very best growth potential exists because that money sits there the longest. You pay nothing in for your first 3 years and you suspend paying in your full potential because of your debt. That right there could LITERALLY cost you $1,000,000 in lost investment earnings. Do the math, it is staggering.

So, uh, your masters didn't cost you $50K. It cost you something like $1,170,000. If you think you will EVER recover that kind of money with a Psych degree, you need to see a shrink.
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Old 04-27-2010, 06:23 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I have a number of friends who have graduated with psychology degrees. Almost all of them went back to grad school after trying to make it in the working world. The only person I know who was able to successfully get a job directly following her undergrad was a person interested in becoming a probation officer. Because she knew exactly what she wanted to do once she graduated, she pursued internships and other employment opportunities in criminal justice while she was an undergrad. Without those internships, she probably wouldn't have found a job at all--even with the internships, the job she got is one few people would probably take, as it's in an isolated part of our state.

The questions to ask yourself: do you have any work experience beyond your degree that will help you get the job you want? A Bachelor's degree is NOT a one-way ticket to employment in this day and age. You have to have something that makes you stand out--internships, great recommendations, experience. If you do not have any of those things, I think you would be better off going to grad school given the economic climate.
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Old 04-27-2010, 06:39 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cimarron29414 View Post
It isn't $50K. It's $50K + 3 more years of earning potential. So, let's suppose you get our of school with a BA in Psych. Most likely, you get a job as a state-funded counselor and earn (for example) $40K. In 3 years you have grossed $120K.

...No you haven't, you were in grad school. So, you now have $170K to make up. So, you get out of school with $50K in debt plus $120K in lost earnings. If you get a job as a...guess what...state-funded counselor and make $44K because of the masters, it will only take you 30 years to make up the lost wages if you never receive a raise. So, let's factor in raises (and that your masters will get you better raises) and knock it down to 15 years. So, you will spend the first 15 years of your career BREAKING EVEN on wages, not to mention the student loan.
$40k a year, sure, down to $25k after taxes, plus more bills to pay living as a salaried worker in a normal environment. $120k in lost earnings is a gross exaggeration.
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Old 04-27-2010, 06:51 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cimarron29414 View Post
It isn't $50K. It's $50K + 3 more years of earning potential. So, let's suppose you get our of school with a BA in Psych. Most likely, you get a job as a state-funded counselor and earn (for example) $40K. In 3 years you have grossed $120K.

...No you haven't, you were in grad school. So, you now have $170K to make up. So, you get out of school with $50K in debt plus $120K in lost earnings. If you get a job as a...guess what...state-funded counselor and make $44K because of the masters, it will only take you 30 years to make up the lost wages if you never receive a raise. So, let's factor in raises (and that your masters will get you better raises) and knock it down to 15 years. So, you will spend the first 15 years of your career BREAKING EVEN on wages, not to mention the student loan.

But wait, there's more. Because of the debt and the 3 years of no wages, you have delayed the front-end loading of your 401K - the place where the very best growth potential exists because that money sits there the longest. You pay nothing in for your first 3 years and you suspend paying in your full potential because of your debt. That right there could LITERALLY cost you $1,000,000 in lost investment earnings. Do the math, it is staggering.

So, uh, your masters didn't cost you $50K. It cost you something like $1,170,000. If you think you will EVER recover that kind of money with a Psych degree, you need to see a shrink.

On the other hand, these days it's quite possible that you don't get a job in your field and end up working somewhere without a 401k for $15,000/yr (if you're lucky). Grad school would make more sense in this context and you wouldn't be out a hypothetical 1,000,000.

My suggestion would be to follow your dreams. If you don't have kids or a debt besides student loans, you might as well- especially in a dire job market such as this one. I'd even consider a non-psych degree if there's something you'd rather do. There's no reason your grad degree needs to be the same thing as your undergrad.
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Old 04-27-2010, 07:01 AM   #9 (permalink)
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On the other hand, these days it's quite possible that you don't get a job in your field and end up working somewhere without a 401k for $15,000/yr (if you're lucky). Grad school would make more sense in this context and you wouldn't be out a hypothetical 1,000,000.

My suggestion would be to follow your dreams. If you don't have kids or a debt besides student loans, you might as well- especially in a dire job market such as this one. I'd even consider a non-psych degree if there's something you'd rather do. There's no reason your grad degree needs to be the same thing as your undergrad.
I agree with everything you said. Frankly, with a Psych degree, masters or not, you are unlikely to get a job in your field, and if you do it's likely to be around $30K. If I were hellbent on getting my Masters, I'd get it in something else and upgrade to a BS.
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Old 04-27-2010, 02:26 PM   #10 (permalink)
 
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well, the first thing i would suggest is to think out why you want to go to graduate school again...take this as a chance to rethink it, even if that rethinking lands you in the same place. then i would check out the job market in your field. because if you're thinking about a phd you *need* to have some idea of what the percentages look like in your area. in alot of disciplines the job market is falling in but universities continue to crank out ph.d.s, which more often than not streams you into a space of adjuncting. it doesn't necessarily of course...but you really need to do the research on the state of the job market and keep tabs on it.

the other thing i'd suggest is not to look at being an academic as an escape from capitalism---first off, being an academic is entirely part of the system like it or not, just as any reproduction system is part of the system it reproduces---but also keep your mind open to getting non-academic work and do the network bidness that grad school gives you the possibility to do--and pay attention to how you'd transpose what you're doing into capitalist-speak. cause you gots to eat. and adjuncting is a rough and exploitative way to do that---unless you have a reason to do it (translation: if you're going to go into adjunctland do it for your own reasons and use the system because one thing is sure--the system is using you.)

i wouldn't say either way whether you should or shouldn't go to grad school...i went and the experience was fundamental for me...so that's up to you. it's alot of time and work and other stuff and all those things you take on yourself. so it doesnt matter really what anyone says you should do. it matters what you decide to do.

but there's stuff i wish i had known beforehand. if you decide to do it, keep your options open, even if at times it feels like you're straying from the culture a bit.
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Old 04-27-2010, 04:05 PM   #11 (permalink)
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doing graduate school just keeps you in fairytale land for two more years, if you can do it... do it. i recently graduated from graduate school and my student loan bills aren't that bad. sure I'll be paying them back forever but I could still have made the payments on what I was making part-time in college. It will give you an edge for the first job, but once you get the first job, all jobs after that become mostly about your experience rather than your education.

It was quite a pleasure to enter the real world and actually have money to do stuff... but being able to spend two more years in school wasn't too bad either... i learned more and enjoyed two more carefree years of college life working part time jobs and hanging with friends..
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Old 04-27-2010, 04:15 PM   #12 (permalink)
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but there's stuff i wish i had known beforehand. if you decide to do it, keep your options open, even if at times it feels like you're straying from the culture a bit.
Like what?


I am so thoroughly confused right now, I don't think I'm in the right frame of mind to make such an important decision. I flip-flop hour-by-hour. The program has already accepted me and I have given them my acceptance, but the wheels don't actually start rolling until late May and the first tuition costs aren't until August. I've got so many questions, everyone seems to have different answers and experiences, and I feel like I'm up against the clock.
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Old 04-27-2010, 04:42 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Sounds like you really need to figure out what you want to spend 8+ hours/day doing.
Would you like to be a psychologist/psychiatrist? Or something else with that master's degree? What work interests you most?

You may want to take some time off from your studies to figure this out. Speak with professionals to learn the amount and quality of education you'll require to succeed. Find part-time or volunteer work in that field, try it on for size. It may be entirely different from what you expect. You may love it, or you may despise every moment you spend with that work.


From the wording of your quandry, it seems that you're most concerned with your financial situation. If this is the case, you may want to consider an MBA program for graduate school. You will increase your earning potential incredibly, while opening the door to management positions in companies related to your field.
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:10 PM   #14 (permalink)
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My fabulous niece graduated from Emery Riddle last year, she now gets to begin to pay back her $93,000.00 loans.......... she is 23 and has a 4 year old child, she and her husband (Emery Riddle graduate also, her age), now live with his parents, she works at a stationary store, though she just passed her Air Traffic Control Test. I don't know where I am going with this, except that I could not imagine debt like that, but then I could not imagine that education either, and in the end, I think I would worry less about the payments and go for as much education as I could possibly get. Congratulations on your education thus far, it is quite an accomplishment.

---------- Post added at 09:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:03 PM ----------

p.s. you really don't know what the outcome of this education is or will be until you get there, stop defeating yourself with what ifs and go to school. You've done the work and been accepted, you know in the end you want to continue or you would not have gone this far with continuing, you have cold feet. Go put some pompom socks on and a plaid skirt you schoolgirl, I hope your a girl, if not, you can "case" study your attire in class......hehehe.
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:21 AM   #15 (permalink)
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$50,000 isn't much... if you can actually pay it off.

But I figure if your schooling only cost $50k, you're not living in an area where that kinda money falls from the sky.

...

Education? It's all about the Benjamins.

I'm old and just finished my undegrad. Before attending grad school, I'm going to ask myself: "Can I pay for this? And if so, do I really need it to make more money?" People go to grad school to make money, right? Whether it's on their way to a PhD or filling in the necessary career development blocks at work for a promotion. If you wanna do education for the sake of education, you're far better going to a community college and taking a Western Civilization history class from an excitable professor that listens to death metal and says that history is basically about "people crushing other people!"

As stated above, you can't just rub fancy pieces of paper on your life and expect it to make you happy. You have to do something you like.

...

You could also join the Army National Guard (or even go active) and use that time to sort out your life.

It really fixed my wagon as far as getting my head on straight. Also paid 100% of my tuition, rent, and books.
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:57 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Plan9, if your head is now "straight" I don't even want to think about where you started from!
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:45 AM   #17 (permalink)
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People go to grad school to make money, right? Whether it's on their way to a PhD or filling in the necessary career development blocks at work for a promotion.
That's not entirely true. I'm currently entertaining the idea of paying $45k for a Masters in Education so that I can become a teacher and take a $40k paycut for the rest of my life. I'm already making more than I'd ever make as a teacher.
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Old 04-28-2010, 11:56 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Okay, why? We work to live. Go into teaching after you've made yours. When you are 60 or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah - noble professions and all that shit.
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Old 04-28-2010, 12:01 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Okay, why? We work to live. Go into teaching after you've made yours. When you are 60 or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah - noble professions and all that shit.
Because the only thing I've ever really wanted to do with my life is teach? The crossover of teaching and terrible pay is not my choice..
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Old 04-28-2010, 12:09 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I get it. All I've ever really wanted to do with my life is deliver flowers. That's what I'll do when I turn 60.
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Old 04-28-2010, 12:11 PM   #21 (permalink)
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That's not entirely true. I'm currently entertaining the idea of paying $45k for a Masters in Education so that I can become a teacher and take a $40k paycut for the rest of my life. I'm already making more than I'd ever make as a teacher.
Don't cry to me about occupational pay disparity, I'm going into law enforcement.
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Old 04-28-2010, 02:17 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Cops make twice as much as teachers and don't need Masters degrees to do it.
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:12 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I would get some job experience first before even thinking about a master's degree unless you're a doctor, etc...
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Old 04-30-2010, 06:23 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Wait, what is this?

Quote:
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Cops make twice as much as teachers and don't need Masters degrees to do it.
[Citation needed.] (like whoa)

A: You don't have to have a masters degree to teach. B: Police officers get roughly the same paycheck as teachers if you consider hours / steps.

So I think you're full of shit. My roommate is a teacher with over a decade of classroom time and I hang out with cops on a regular basis.
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Old 05-01-2010, 06:58 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Wait, what is this?



[Citation needed.] (like whoa)

A: You don't have to have a masters degree to teach. .
I don't know about all states, but in ohio you have to have a masters.
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Old 05-01-2010, 07:12 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Yeah, Plan9, many states require a Master's these days. In Oregon, you have to have a Master's within 7 years of receiving your Initial Teaching License (the only license you can get with a Bachelor's) or else you lose your license completely. However, many states are instituting alternative pathways to certification.

To settle the argument between Jinn and 9er, some snippets from the Bureau of Labor Statistics website:

Law enforcement personnel compensation:
Quote:
Police and sheriff's patrol officers had median annual wages of $51,410 in May 2008. The middle 50 percent earned between $38,850 and $64,940. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $30,070, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $79,680. Median annual wages were $46,620 in Federal Government, $57,270 in State government, $51,020 in local government and $43,350 in educational services.

In May 2008, median annual wages of police and detective supervisors were $75,490. The middle 50 percent earned between $59,320 and $92,700. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $46,000, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $114,300. Median annual wages were $89,930 in Federal Government, $75,370 in State government, and $74,820 in local government.
Law enforcement training:
Quote:
Education requirements range from a high school diploma to a college degree or higher. Most police and detectives learn much of what they need to know on the job, often in their agency's training academy. Civil service regulations govern the appointment of police and detectives in most States, large municipalities, and special police agencies, as well as in many smaller jurisdictions. Candidates must be U.S. citizens, usually at least 21 years old, and meet rigorous physical and personal qualifications.   click to show 
Teacher compensation:
Quote:
Median annual wages of kindergarten, elementary, middle, and secondary school teachers ranged from $47,100 to $51,180 in May 2008; the lowest 10 percent earned $30,970 to $34,280; the top 10 percent earned $75,190 to $80,970.

According to the American Federation of Teachers, beginning teachers with a bachelor's degree earned an average of $33,227 in the 2005-2006 school year.   click to show 
Teacher education/training:
Quote:
The traditional route to becoming a public school teacher involves completing a bachelor's degree from a teacher education program and then obtaining a license. However, most States now offer alternative routes to licensure for those who have a college degree in other fields. Private school teachers do not have to be licensed but may still need a bachelor's degree.   click to show 
Occupational outlook for law enforcement: Police and Detectives
Occupational outlook for education: Teachers—Kindergarten, Elementary, Middle, and Secondary

/threadjack
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:54 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Damn, I should have become a teacher or a cop!

But this actually demonstrates something: the paths to becoming a teacher and a cop are fairly easy to determine. They have "official" paths you need to take to get to that destination.

As for the MA in psychology, it doesn't really lead to anywhere directly. It's one of the steps toward something, but you need to figure out what that is. Do you want to continue to a Ph.D.? Do you know of specific companies/positions where the psychology MA would be considered a "benefit" or "preferred"? You need to find out just what an MA can get you, and then determine what it is you want to do with that.

If you struggle with this, maybe you don't want to do the MA after all.
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Old 05-01-2010, 05:31 PM   #28 (permalink)
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i work in the mental health field currently. in the area i live in, that the starting salary between a new graduate with a masters degree and a new graduate with a bachelors degree is around a 10k difference. after you have roughly 4 years of human services experience, your qualifications are upgraded and the salary difference between a bachelors degree and a starting salary for (new graduate with a) masters is roughly 4k difference.
i believe the thing you'll want to look at is the employee duties of each degree and what you're passionate about in that field (if psychology related areas are what you're passionate about). the duties are VERY different between bachelors and masters positions.
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Old 05-04-2010, 11:05 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Teacher or cop: in both occupations, you should wear a kevlar vest. However, only in one of them are you allowed to shoot the worst misbehavers.
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Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."
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