Ticketed for driving "too fast for conditions" - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Walt · 01-31-2010, 12:36 PM

Over the weekend, North Carolina was hit with a bit of a snow storm. I spent the weekend at a friends house on the opposite side of the state and was driving home on a major highway. There was some snow on the road even though the roads had been plowed and salted but generally, the tires from the volume of traffic had cleared 3 feet of pavement on each side of the driving lanes

It was the day after the storm had hit and I was headed home. I moved in to the left lane to pass a group of cars doing roughly 45 mph. In that group of cars was a State Trooper who hit the lights and sirens as soon as I passed him. I immediately pulled over and was ticketed for "operating a vehicle at a speed greater than was reasonable and prudent under the conditions". The Trooper guestimated me to be traveling at approximately 55 mph - I was doing 50 mph - in a 65 mph zone. I assume the ticket says "approximately 55 mph" because the Trooper never verified my speed by radar/laser. At 50 mph, I didn't exactly blow by the group of cars doing 45 mph.

After the Trooper handed me the ticket, he asked if I had any questions. I asked at what speed I should be traveling. He got pissy and gave a noncommittal and sarcastic answer, saying I should be going "the speed at which an average person can safely drive without getting in to an accident".

What the shit is "an average person"? I spent 2 years in southern Germany and made my living driving an emergency vehicle. I have attended the Volvo and US Army winter driving schools. I live in a mountainous area that averages 40-60" of snow a year. Long story short, I have a bit more experience and training driving in snow than the "average person".

What does the "average person" drive? I was driving a four wheel drive truck (with the 4WD engaged) that was equipped with all-terrain tires, specifically engineered for driving in mud and snow. It late in the afternoon, the sky was clear and I had my headlights on. At no time did I spin my tires, lose traction, fish tale, etc. I even had both hands on the fucking wheel and signaled to change lanes.

In fact, I was driving the ideal vehicle for the given conditions, going only 5 mph faster than a Trooper in a rear wheel drive, supercharged muscle car with the civilian equivalent of racing tires.

Even though it will cost me more to hire a lawyer than it would to pay the ticket AND I will have to miss a day of my college classes, I plan on fighting this tooth and nail. Has anyone else had similar experiences with such arbitrary bullshit?

Xerxys · 01-31-2010, 12:54 PM

Yeah he was just having his quota filled. I don't think you need a lawyer to contest this but if you aren't confident go ahead and get one.

raging moderate · 01-31-2010, 01:13 PM

I got one of those a couple of weeks ago. I went in and talked to the judge, and he dismissed it on the spot with no further fines or anything. I told him the situation, he laughed and shook his head. Not that that'll happen in your case necessarily, but I think they know that "too fast for conditions" is kind of a bullshit ticket.

In most places you can either talk to the hearing officer or the judge directly. I wouldn't hire a lawyer b/c it's probably not worth your time or money.

edit:

the situation was, I had a blowout while driving down the highway and lost control of the car. Went off the road and slid into the guardrail. I was out of the car inspecting the damage when the cop drove up, ticketed me for "unsafe speed", demanded that I get the car towed, and then proceeded to leave me stranded in the middle of BFE (I was five hours into a six hour journey for work). I ended up having to get my wife to come pick me up and miss work even though the car would have been driveable. Quite the mess.

Wes Mantooth · 01-31-2010, 03:30 PM

Seems like a crooked reason to give a ticket...honestly how can an officer really determine with any level of accuracy if you were going to fast for the conditions? I mean if you're going to slap someone with a ticket you should at least have a general basis other then "it seems like you were going a bit too fast". A warning in this situation should have been more then enough.

I wouldn't even bother with a lawyer, go to the court date and contest it. I can't imagine a judge would let something like that stand...but I guess anything is possible. Besides worst case scenario, you contest it and lose you just wind up where you were before with a bogus speeding ticket.

Plan9 · 01-31-2010, 03:34 PM

That sucks, bro. Complete waste of time for all parties involved. I had a similar experience with NC cops.

Yeah, go to court in a tie and pull the GI Joe card. Bring a picture of your vehicle, tires, and training certificates.

You probably won't need a lawyer... but given that its buttfuck-backwards NC, who knows what'll happen?

If you do get brought down for having above a 9th grade reading level... make sure not to smile.

They'll be jealous of your teeth and you'll probably be held in contempt of court.

hunnychile · 01-31-2010, 03:37 PM

Once in Marin County, CA. I was ticketed for going 5 miles over the speed limit north from Sausalito on 101 to Novato and it was on a rather foggy Monday morning at 7:00am.

The cop said I was driving too fast for conditions. He seemed grumpier than I felt, so I didn't say a word, but U believe he was just being a creep and had a quota to fill. /Or his team lost on Sunday night.

Walt · 01-31-2010, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wes Mantooth

Seems like a crooked reason to give a ticket...honestly how can an officer really determine with any level of accuracy if you were going to fast for the conditions? I mean if you're going to slap someone with a ticket you should at least have a general basis other then "it seems like you were going a bit too fast". A warning in this situation should have been more then enough.

Exactly. I spent a little time in law enforcement and have never heard of anyone receiving a citation for "driving too fast for conditions" unless they were being a dick and it resulted in an accident.

I've stopped people for driving faster than I thought was appropriate for the given conditions but it was always just a warning as in "Hey dude, the road is pretty nasty up ahead. There have been 3 accidents there in the last hour. If I were you I'd probably take it slow and easy. Good luck". A cops job is to enforce the law, not to interpret the fucking law based upon his whims.

Plan9 · 01-31-2010, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walt

A cops job is to enforce the law, not to interpret the fucking law based upon his whims.

Gimmie a break... ditch those rose-colored Oakleys... officer discretion is the name of the game for patrol officers, especially traffic.

I've escaped speeding tickets for being military. I've received tickets for being military and them not liking enlisted guys.

It's all about their choice. This douchebag wanted to give you a ticket. Maybe he's jealous of your sweet man-chariot.

Walt · 01-31-2010, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

It's all about their choice.

As it should be. An officers discretion can be an awesome tool to get your point across without fucking up someones day and, in the process, gain a few respect/credibility points with the folks you serve. But this only works if its used positively.

Ex: You see a guy with a brake light out and no seat belt on.

Solution: Tell him to get the light fixed, buckle up and drive safe. Seriously, nobody I know checks their brake lights before making a quick run to the 7-11 and we've all forgotten to put our seat belts on at some point.

Ex: You stop a guy with a .09 BAC when the limit is .08.

Solution: Park your shit and call a cab. It happens to all of us, he just got caught. A DUI is a career-killer and costs a ton.

In both situations, the situation was resolved and everyone's happy. Nobody went to jail or had to pay a fine and I have more time to spend catching real bad guys. Unfortunately, there are cops out there who are inflexible and follow the letter of the law. And there are the kids who got picked on in gym class who just want to impose their will on somebody - the ones that start throwing out tickets or charges and seeing what sticks to prove how bad ass they are.

Oh, and I wore Arnettes.

Wes Mantooth · 01-31-2010, 07:27 PM

The thing that bugs me about this is how it just wastes everyone's time and money when the officer simply could have issued a warning and let everyone go their separate ways. Now Wait is going to have to waste his hard earned money on paying the ticket or his time going to court and fighting it, the court will have to waste its time and money hearing the case and the officer will have to waste the police districts time and money going to court (if he decides to show up).

Plan9 · 01-31-2010, 08:11 PM

Walt, I completely agree with your philosophy but the view of law enforcement that you're espousing just doesn't seem practical given the nature of many service areas in the US, the risk associated with crime in this country (pull a speeder = gunshot to the face), and the pressure felt by law enforcement entities to show that they're "tough on crime" (circlejerk politics with civilian no-nothings). They need more numbers... doesn't matter who.

You know better than I that the job isn't "Protect and Serve" anymore. Heh. Gone are the days of the Night Watchman / Andy Griffith philosophy of law enforcement. The militarization of the US police creature has seen the Good Old Days put to bed... and many moons ago. Any motorist can be guilty of POPO (pissing off a police officer) and, as I've heard from several cops in various slices of MD and VA, if they pull anybody for anything, there has to be a ticket involved or they get a negative performance report note. Nothing official, just animosity. And it doesn't help anybody... grunts or leaders.

As it is with the military, astronauts and the BSA, it's tough to regulate such a dynamic qualitative service job with quantitative goals. When you make it about the numbers... everybody is a big dick. That and, like I said, you probably talked all smarty-college to Officer Dumpy McDropout.

I mean... if I was him? I'd be afraid you'd fuck my wife, too. Just be glad he didn't search that brown package on the seat next to you 'n find that Uzi.

Shell · 02-01-2010, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

... ditch those rose-colored Oakleys...Maybe he's jealous of your sweet man-chariot...you probably talked all smarty-college to Officer Dumpy McDropout....I mean... if I was him? I'd be afraid you'd fuck my wife, too. Just be glad he didn't search that brown package on the seat next to you 'n find that Uzi.

Plan9, you crack me up. And, Walt, don't bother with a lawyer...you've got this one. Just take proof that you're not the "average" driver, you're not driving the "average" car, and point out that the cop has no proof of your speed nor any solid distinctions of what's safe for the conditions. The rules are fuzzy (no pun intended).

redsneaker · 02-01-2010, 01:31 AM

Plan 9 you crack me up as well - because you're generally right on target. As for officers, I agree, the douche bag wanted to give you a ticket. I had an experience involving LE over thanksgiving where *I* was the one calling for help after being assaulted and battered. The cops told me I had what was coming to me since I mouthed off to the person who in turn assaulted and battered me. Provocation does not justify either battery or assault, but these douche bags threatened to take ME to jail. Fuckers. Needless to say, I don't call on LE anymore.

I think you will be able to get out of this ticket it you present your documents, photos, ID, facts and what not. Be respectful, informative and hopefully it will come to an easy end. Good luck!

LordEden · 02-01-2010, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

That sucks, bro. Complete waste of time for all parties involved. I had a similar experience with NC cops.

Yeah, go to court in a tie and pull the GI Joe card. Bring a picture of your vehicle, tires, and training certificates.

You probably won't need a lawyer... but given that its buttfuck-backwards NC, who knows what'll happen?

If you do get brought down for having above a 9th grade reading level... make sure not to smile.

They'll be jealous of your teeth and you'll probably be held in contempt of court.

I started to reply that NC isn't as bad as Planster says, but then I remember I was arrested for being near someone who threw a chair at a off-duty cop's truck (Who got out of the car with a gun, cause you know, a broken plastic law chair is a deadly weapon).

Watch out Walt, there are to many rednecks with CJ degrees in the NC court system. They might not like it you use to many three syllable words. Depending on the county, I might know some lawyers. Let me know.

I got all my teeth, TYVM.

ratbastid · 02-01-2010, 07:10 AM

As former law enforcement, you probably know all about how traffic court works, but if not... I've interacted some with traffic court in Guilford County. I don't know where you live, but here, you go into the court house on your appointed date (should be written on your ticket) and talk to somebody from the DA's office when your name is called. You let them know your position on things (in my case, I requested a continuance, which is a limited "wave our hands and it goes away" action the DA can take, and everyone can request one every three years, with certain conditions).

My bet is, you respectfully present your arguments to that guy, and request they drop the charge. If they won't, you're scheduled for a court date in front of a judge. Even then you don't need a lawyer. Just show up and say what you want to say.

It's such a cattle-call in traffic court (and this ticket is such obvious nonsense), I'd be willing to bet this thing won't even get in front of the judge.

Borla · 02-01-2010, 08:53 AM

I would focus on three things when respectfully presenting your case:
1) You were not in an accident, nor did you cause anyone else any harm.
2) Your training and experience with driving in snow, including any certificates you may have for the classes.
3) Your vehicle being properly equipped.

I'd stay away from criticizing the officer too much, that is going to turn a lot of judges and/or DAs off. And make sure every part of your story is correct, because a couple of the details seemed a bit off to me, and if I were a judge it would hurt your credibility.

What type of cop car was he in that was supercharged? No Crown Vics, Chargers, or Impala Police Cars come that way.
What do you mean by racing tires? All weather performance (typical for LE vehicles in areas with bad weather), or even standard performance tires are a far cry from civilian racing tires, aka drag radials.

The only way I reasonably see those two details being completely accurate is if it was in a previously seized vehicle converted for police use. We have a few Mustangs around (and only Cobras are supercharged) and even a Viper in my area. The Viper wasn't even a drug car, it was seized in a felony evading case. OUCH.

Plan9 · 02-01-2010, 10:18 AM

I think Walt was making colorful comparisons, not being literal. I'm sure he'll lay out the facts in court like Joe Friday in Arnettes.

Think: A GMC Suburban 2500 on 35" Mickey Thompson Baja Claws versus a NC State Crown Vic for handling slippery conditions.

Borla · 02-01-2010, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

I think Walt was making colorful comparisons, not being literal. I'm sure he'll lay out the facts in court like Joe Friday in Arnettes.

Think: A GMC Suburban 2500 on 35" Mickey Thompson Baja Claws versus a NC State Crown Vic for handling slippery conditions.

I was just clarifying, you don't want to be in court doing that if you want the judge to take you seriously.

Walt · 02-01-2010, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borla

What type of cop car was he in that was supercharged? No Crown Vics, Chargers, or Impala Police Cars come that way.

The Trooper was driving what looked like a brand new Dodge Charger (I had incorrectly thought them to be super charged). Regardless its a big, heavy, rear wheel drive muscle car - Not ideal for driving in the snow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Borla

do you mean by racing tires? All weather performance (typical for LE vehicles in areas with bad weather), or even standard performance tires are a far cry from civilian racing tires, aka drag

I was refering to the big, wide, sticky performance tires. The ones designed with the biggest contact patch possible to maximize performance in the wet/dry. The area where I was ticketed is lucky to see an inch of snow every 5 years or so.

I only mentioned the Troopers car to emphasize that I was better prepared for the weather than he was. Regardless, this isn't something that I would ever bring up in court as its not particularly relevant. My plan is to pretty much stick to the talking points that you mentioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

As former law enforcement, you probably know all about how traffic court works, but if not... I.

I was military law enforcement and spent the majority of my career either doing QRF/SRT stuff and everything K9. I know fuck-all about civilian traffic court, though I do have a bit of experience talking to judges. Your advice seems sound to me. I'm going to give that strategy a go.

Plan9 · 02-01-2010, 11:47 AM

Man, everybody is getting Chargers. I'll be lucky to get a Crown Vic with the gas tank grenade issue.

01-31-2010, 12:36 PM	#1 (permalink)
Walt I'm calmer than you are, dude Location: North Carolina	Ticketed for driving "too fast for conditions" Over the weekend, North Carolina was hit with a bit of a snow storm. I spent the weekend at a friends house on the opposite side of the state and was driving home on a major highway. There was some snow on the road even though the roads had been plowed and salted but generally, the tires from the volume of traffic had cleared 3 feet of pavement on each side of the driving lanes It was the day after the storm had hit and I was headed home. I moved in to the left lane to pass a group of cars doing roughly 45 mph. In that group of cars was a State Trooper who hit the lights and sirens as soon as I passed him. I immediately pulled over and was ticketed for "operating a vehicle at a speed greater than was reasonable and prudent under the conditions". The Trooper guestimated me to be traveling at approximately 55 mph - I was doing 50 mph - in a 65 mph zone. I assume the ticket says "approximately 55 mph" because the Trooper never verified my speed by radar/laser. At 50 mph, I didn't exactly blow by the group of cars doing 45 mph. After the Trooper handed me the ticket, he asked if I had any questions. I asked at what speed I should be traveling. He got pissy and gave a noncommittal and sarcastic answer, saying I should be going "the speed at which an average person can safely drive without getting in to an accident". What the shit is "an average person"? I spent 2 years in southern Germany and made my living driving an emergency vehicle. I have attended the Volvo and US Army winter driving schools. I live in a mountainous area that averages 40-60" of snow a year. Long story short, I have a bit more experience and training driving in snow than the "average person". What does the "average person" drive? I was driving a four wheel drive truck (with the 4WD engaged) that was equipped with all-terrain tires, specifically engineered for driving in mud and snow. It late in the afternoon, the sky was clear and I had my headlights on. At no time did I spin my tires, lose traction, fish tale, etc. I even had both hands on the fucking wheel and signaled to change lanes. In fact, I was driving the ideal vehicle for the given conditions, going only 5 mph faster than a Trooper in a rear wheel drive, supercharged muscle car with the civilian equivalent of racing tires. Even though it will cost me more to hire a lawyer than it would to pay the ticket AND I will have to miss a day of my college classes, I plan on fighting this tooth and nail. Has anyone else had similar experiences with such arbitrary bullshit? __________________ Calmer than you are...

01-31-2010, 01:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
raging moderate Insane Location: Whatever house my keys can get me into	I got one of those a couple of weeks ago. I went in and talked to the judge, and he dismissed it on the spot with no further fines or anything. I told him the situation, he laughed and shook his head. Not that that'll happen in your case necessarily, but I think they know that "too fast for conditions" is kind of a bullshit ticket. In most places you can either talk to the hearing officer or the judge directly. I wouldn't hire a lawyer b/c it's probably not worth your time or money. edit: the situation was, I had a blowout while driving down the highway and lost control of the car. Went off the road and slid into the guardrail. I was out of the car inspecting the damage when the cop drove up, ticketed me for "unsafe speed", demanded that I get the car towed, and then proceeded to leave me stranded in the middle of BFE (I was five hours into a six hour journey for work). I ended up having to get my wife to come pick me up and miss work even though the car would have been driveable. Quite the mess. __________________ These are the good old days... formerly Murp0434 Last edited by raging moderate; 01-31-2010 at 01:16 PM..

01-31-2010, 03:30 PM	#4 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	Seems like a crooked reason to give a ticket...honestly how can an officer really determine with any level of accuracy if you were going to fast for the conditions? I mean if you're going to slap someone with a ticket you should at least have a general basis other then "it seems like you were going a bit too fast". A warning in this situation should have been more then enough. I wouldn't even bother with a lawyer, go to the court date and contest it. I can't imagine a judge would let something like that stand...but I guess anything is possible. Besides worst case scenario, you contest it and lose you just wind up where you were before with a bogus speeding ticket. __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

01-31-2010, 03:34 PM	#5 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	That sucks, bro. Complete waste of time for all parties involved. I had a similar experience with NC cops. Yeah, go to court in a tie and pull the GI Joe card. Bring a picture of your vehicle, tires, and training certificates. You probably won't need a lawyer... but given that its buttfuck-backwards NC, who knows what'll happen? If you do get brought down for having above a 9th grade reading level... make sure not to smile. They'll be jealous of your teeth and you'll probably be held in contempt of court. Last edited by Plan9; 01-31-2010 at 03:41 PM..

01-31-2010, 03:37 PM	#6 (permalink)
hunnychile Alien Anthropologist Location: Between Boredom and Nirvana	Once in Marin County, CA. I was ticketed for going 5 miles over the speed limit north from Sausalito on 101 to Novato and it was on a rather foggy Monday morning at 7:00am. The cop said I was driving too fast for conditions. He seemed grumpier than I felt, so I didn't say a word, but U believe he was just being a creep and had a quota to fill. /Or his team lost on Sunday night. __________________ "I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

01-31-2010, 12:54 PM	#2 (permalink)
Xerxys Junkie Location: My head.	Yeah he was just having his quota filled. I don't think you need a lawyer to contest this but if you aren't confident go ahead and get one.

01-31-2010, 07:27 PM	#10 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	The thing that bugs me about this is how it just wastes everyone's time and money when the officer simply could have issued a warning and let everyone go their separate ways. Now Wait is going to have to waste his hard earned money on paying the ticket or his time going to court and fighting it, the court will have to waste its time and money hearing the case and the officer will have to waste the police districts time and money going to court (if he decides to show up). __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

01-31-2010, 08:11 PM	#11 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Walt, I completely agree with your philosophy but the view of law enforcement that you're espousing just doesn't seem practical given the nature of many service areas in the US, the risk associated with crime in this country (pull a speeder = gunshot to the face), and the pressure felt by law enforcement entities to show that they're "tough on crime" (circlejerk politics with civilian no-nothings). They need more numbers... doesn't matter who. You know better than I that the job isn't "Protect and Serve" anymore. Heh. Gone are the days of the Night Watchman / Andy Griffith philosophy of law enforcement. The militarization of the US police creature has seen the Good Old Days put to bed... and many moons ago. Any motorist can be guilty of POPO (pissing off a police officer) and, as I've heard from several cops in various slices of MD and VA, if they pull anybody for anything, there has to be a ticket involved or they get a negative performance report note. Nothing official, just animosity. And it doesn't help anybody... grunts or leaders. As it is with the military, astronauts and the BSA, it's tough to regulate such a dynamic qualitative service job with quantitative goals. When you make it about the numbers... everybody is a big dick. That and, like I said, you probably talked all smarty-college to Officer Dumpy McDropout. I mean... if I was him? I'd be afraid you'd fuck my wife, too. Just be glad he didn't search that brown package on the seat next to you 'n find that Uzi. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 01-31-2010 at 08:21 PM..

02-01-2010, 01:31 AM	#13 (permalink)
redsneaker Tilted Location: Atlanta	Plan 9 you crack me up as well - because you're generally right on target. As for officers, I agree, the douche bag wanted to give you a ticket. I had an experience involving LE over thanksgiving where I was the one calling for help after being assaulted and battered. The cops told me I had what was coming to me since I mouthed off to the person who in turn assaulted and battered me. Provocation does not justify either battery or assault, but these douche bags threatened to take ME to jail. Fuckers. Needless to say, I don't call on LE anymore. I think you will be able to get out of this ticket it you present your documents, photos, ID, facts and what not. Be respectful, informative and hopefully it will come to an easy end. Good luck!

02-01-2010, 07:10 AM	#15 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	As former law enforcement, you probably know all about how traffic court works, but if not... I've interacted some with traffic court in Guilford County. I don't know where you live, but here, you go into the court house on your appointed date (should be written on your ticket) and talk to somebody from the DA's office when your name is called. You let them know your position on things (in my case, I requested a continuance, which is a limited "wave our hands and it goes away" action the DA can take, and everyone can request one every three years, with certain conditions). My bet is, you respectfully present your arguments to that guy, and request they drop the charge. If they won't, you're scheduled for a court date in front of a judge. Even then you don't need a lawyer. Just show up and say what you want to say. It's such a cattle-call in traffic court (and this ticket is such obvious nonsense), I'd be willing to bet this thing won't even get in front of the judge.

02-01-2010, 08:53 AM	#16 (permalink)
Borla Junkie	I would focus on three things when respectfully presenting your case: 1) You were not in an accident, nor did you cause anyone else any harm. 2) Your training and experience with driving in snow, including any certificates you may have for the classes. 3) Your vehicle being properly equipped. I'd stay away from criticizing the officer too much, that is going to turn a lot of judges and/or DAs off. And make sure every part of your story is correct, because a couple of the details seemed a bit off to me, and if I were a judge it would hurt your credibility. What type of cop car was he in that was supercharged? No Crown Vics, Chargers, or Impala Police Cars come that way. What do you mean by racing tires? All weather performance (typical for LE vehicles in areas with bad weather), or even standard performance tires are a far cry from civilian racing tires, aka drag radials. The only way I reasonably see those two details being completely accurate is if it was in a previously seized vehicle converted for police use. We have a few Mustangs around (and only Cobras are supercharged) and even a Viper in my area. The Viper wasn't even a drug car, it was seized in a felony evading case. OUCH. __________________ Coimhéad fearg fhear na foighde!!!! Last edited by Borla; 02-01-2010 at 10:01 AM..

02-01-2010, 10:18 AM	#17 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I think Walt was making colorful comparisons, not being literal. I'm sure he'll lay out the facts in court like Joe Friday in Arnettes. Think: A GMC Suburban 2500 on 35" Mickey Thompson Baja Claws versus a NC State Crown Vic for handling slippery conditions. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 02-01-2010 at 10:20 AM..

02-01-2010, 11:47 AM	#20 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Man, everybody is getting Chargers. I'll be lucky to get a Crown Vic with the gas tank grenade issue. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."