Jimellow

I go to the gym on a regular basis and have been impressed with my development. I'm a thin guy, but I've put on muscle and ultimately have no complaints about the results I've seen as a result of working out consistently.

With that said, I have a high metabolism, and suspect I might not be getting as many calories as I should over the course of a day; especially given the amount I likely burn. This has made me ponder the idea of adding a protein supplement to my daily intake, but I have questions and wanted to find out more before pursuing this route.

The reason I suspect I may not be getting enough caloric intake is due to the fact that aside from lifting, I will often do a physical activity (cardio) at some point throughout the day, and also work at a job that I consider to be physical and at a level of cardio/exertion beyond walking at a brisk pace.

If I were to go the protein supplement route, I would want to be very sure that I knew what I was taking, and that it didn't have any additives I wasn't interested in, such as creatine. I'm not interested in artificial development or something that has any risk of side affects or negative changes to my life or well being.

Thus, my first question is: Are there protein shakes/supplements that qualify as something I would be interested in, based on my description above?

I am not well learned in the supplement field, and I've admittedly viewed supplements with a leery eye in the past. I eat healthily, and I enjoy the results I get as a result of combining this with an active lifestyle. I suspect I might benefit from heightened caloric intake, but even that is based on the fact that I am very active, burn a lot of calories, have a very high metabolism, and generally don't take in as many calories as I gather others that lift do.

I'm not necessarily looking to add a lot of muscle mass, and I'm pleased with the progress I've made to date, but if it would be beneficial to take a protein-type supplement that is healthy and would compliment my lifting, then I'd like to pursue what's available and whether it's something I should consider.

Thus, I welcome any and all comments regarding this subject.

Lastly, I'd just like to clarify that I am not interested in steroids, creatine, substances that are similar to steroids, but legal, or any other substance that is going to make me raise my eyebrows about taking. If there are protein supplements available that will compliment the lifestyle I live, then I could be interested, but I want to stress that I'm not looking to introduce complex substances into my body as a means for achieving muscular gains in an unnatural and unhealthy way.

With that said, if you can recommend a specific supplement or brand, I'd appreciate it if you could write a bit on what exactly it is or isn't, so that I can get an idea of whether I want to consider ingesting it or not.

Aside from that, I welcome any comments you may have in regards to what exactly supplements are, how the body reacts to them, and what the consequences of taking them are. I've been told that excess protein is run through the liver and urinated out, and that over time this can put excessive stress on the liver, but I'm not sure if that's true or not, and is an example of something I'd appreciate some clarification on.

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PonyPotato

There are plenty of protein powders you can get that do not include creatine or anything like steroids.

I add soy protein to my breakfast smoothies, and I also have brown rice protein to add to food. You can also get whey protein without all the additives, but you might need to go to the natural foods aisles of the grocery store to do it (that's where I get my protein powders).

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Willravel

Sure, you could use some more protein, but mainly you're going to want to simply increase your caloric intake (as long as they're good calories). If you eat 3 meals a day, add a fourth. Add a fifth and sixth, even.

As for the protein powder, I use vanilla whey protein powder (without creatine or techron or whatever). It works well in smoothies and oatmeal. I think the one I'm using now is Optimum something or other, from GNC.

Soy is okay, but I've found to have better results with whey. Not only does it help me sidestep concerns about soy disrupting hormone balance (it's not something proven, but the fact that snopes didn't dismiss it outright gives me pause), but it tastes better. I work out first thing in the morning, then generally have a protein-rich breakfast. This morning I had oatmeal with about three tablespoons of whey protein powder, a tablespoon of flax seeds, some almonds, and some dried bing cherries. Tomorrow morning I'll have eggs and toast, and Wednesday morning I'll have a Jamba Juice (fruit smoothie) with two servings of protein powder. You can probably find a million smoothie recipes online.

blahblah454

Keep your eye out while reading the ingredients!! Protein powders are FULL of shit that you do not want to be eating. Cheap artificial sugars (I refuse to eat any artificial sugars at all), artificial colors, high fructose corn syrup. All that stuff is horrible!

I actually found some stuff by Interactive Nutrition that is like 95% pure protein from Whey, it has no extra garbage in it, but also no flavour. I put a scoop or two of these into shakes 1-2 times a day. For extra calories I throw fruit, hemp seed, yogurt, and other such items in the shakes to go with them.

And apparently if you want to gain some muscle you should be eating 1g of protein for every lb you weigh.

Shakes are where it is at if you want more calories. It is really easy to have 50 grams of protein and like 500 calories in 1 shake and be able to drink it down like nothing, add one of those a day to your normal eating patterns and that is some serious additional calories!

Jimellow

Thanks for the replies.

I am not overly concerned about the protein shake lacking flavor, or even tasting unpleasant. I'm more concerned with what's in it, and blahblah's recommendation of Interactive Nutrition has intrigued me. Do you have any more details about this supplement? What does it cost generally, and can it be found cheaper online?

A general question/concern of mine is the prospect of added calories causing me to gain weight/fat. What are the odds of this happening?

I am quite certain that I am burning quite a few calories every day, and I am not concerned about becoming overweight due to my very high metabolism, but I am curious about what happens to the added calories I would be taking in if they weren't burned off on a given day.

It seems that "healthy", no frills, protein supplements can be found, and given that, I'd consider purchasing and giving it a shot. Thus, I'd appreciate specific recommendations as well as places online where they can be purchased at a discount, if they exist.

After browsing the online offerings very briefly, saying I'm overwhelmed by the brands and selections available would be an understatement. The Interactive website alone has 14 supplements available, so I'd certainly appreciate some specific names and brands that you've all found to be satisfactory.

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snowy

We also use the Optimum whey protein powder from GNC. I like the way it tastes. Whey just tastes better period. Soy is all right if you can adapt to that soy taste, but why adapt when you can have whey?

Do you go for the Protein Berry Workout with whey, will? That's my favorite.

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Willravel

Ch'i loves the protein berry, I love the orange berry blitz with two protein boosts. The vanilla from the whey protein makes it taste almost like an orange julius.

Hektore

The only supplement I would say fits the bill from what you described is pure whey protein, but to tell you the truth I think it would be a waste of money (of course I think this of just about everything sold at GNC so...). The whey should be fine, it's not anything you don't already get in cheese or yogurt.

Just eat more protein in your diet. And more food. (Note: by food I mean Food (TM) not food-like substances, know the difference) Have an extra piece of baked or grilled chicken. It will be just as effective and taste better. If you really want the whey you can get it in some cheeses (ricotta/cottage I think). Egg whites are also high in protein.

One thing you have to remember about supplements is that they can make any claims they damn well please, as they aren't drugs or food, they don't have to prove the claims. Nor do they answer to anyone if they don't live up to the hype.

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purplelirpa

Soy is not good for men wanting to build muscle. Soy proteins contain plant phytoestrogens. Estrogen is linked to fat storage. Best to stick to whey or egg protein (whey being more palatable in my opinion).

I really like allthewhey protein isolate

All The Whey | Whey Protein Supplements for Bodybuilding and Health


They're cold-processed, so the proteins aren't denatured. Protein powder and ramen noodles were unfortunately a staple for me for a few months last year.

They have plain powder for those not wanting added flavorings. I like the chocolate, but not for daily use, it contains aspartame.

Jimellow

Thanks again for the replies.

A more general question that came to mind since my original post is: How do I tell if I need more calories/protein in my diet? Aside from a numerical value, what indications does a body give that it needs more calories/protein?

I find that doing active things generally gives me more energy, as odd as that may sound, and while I'm pretty sure I'm not taking in as many calories as I should, I'm not lacking energy or noticing any other physical deficiencies. I sleep very well and find I have adequate energy to get me through the day, despite all the activity. Does this mean anything, or isn't that a valid indication of whether or not an individual is getting enough caloric intake throughout the course of a day?

I guess what I am asking is: Why I would be taking a protein supplement in the first place, or for the sake of this thread, why you are taking a given supplement?

In regards to the recommendation to eat more food, I would consider that to be a valid recommendation, but I generally don't eat a lot, and thus am wondering if that might be a reason to take a supplement? I eat enough to have energy and by no means am starving myself, but I don't consider myself to be a hungry person; someone that eats only what's necessary, but not much more.

There's a lot of great information in this thread, and I encourage everyone to continue replying and contributing. I am intrigued by supplements and their place in one's diet, and aside from determining whether they are something I should pursue, I also enjoy learning more about them and how they work through others.

__________________
Desperation is no excuse for lowering one's standards.

Willravel

Increased caloric intake, again assuming that the calories are from healthy foods—lean meats, fresh fruits and veggies, legumes, whole grains, and fresh dairy—, will assist you in gaining mass. I suspect what you characterized as "not eating a lot" may contribute to your difficulty increasing muscle mass. You don't need supplements, you can gain muscle mass and such with a decent diet, but it's the high rate of protein in the powder that is a more efficient than just drinking milk and more palatable than having a lamb smoothie for breakfast.

Slims

I am like you, naturally very thin, but very active.

One of the best all-around, safe, nutritionally sound protein brands is Muscle Milk.

It is easy to mix, tastes great, and unlike the brands designed for gigantic body builders, it gives you a balanced amount of protein along with a few carbs, quality fats (the kind you actually need for balanced nutrition), a full amino acid profile (you need these to use the protein, etc.). It has several kinds of proteins some of which are absorbed very quickly and some a bit slower so your body has protein available for a longer time. It also has a lot of basic vitamins and minerals (but not in extreme quantities).

The powder itself is lactose free, though it is recommended to mix it with milk if you are looking for more calories.

I highly recommend you at least try this brand, it is very well suited to your needs.

Stay away from mass gainers, they usually have more protein than an average person can process (which causes discomfort/gas) and usually more than a thousand calories per shake which will cause you to put on weight, but usually not good weight.

Soy Protein is ok, but there are a lot of better alternatives. Proteins come in different 'qualities' regarding how easily your body can process them into muscle. Soy is better than nothing, but it lacks some of the amino acids you need to turn it into muscle and it is high on phyto-estrogens (I am pretty sure I spelled that wrong) which cause you to retain water/fat, etc.


In response to your second post, if you are losing weight and not getting stronger, you are probably not eating enough. Most body builders overload on calories when they are bulking up because their priority is to put on muscle....they are willing to put on fat along with it because they then go on cutting cycles to drop the fat.

If you are continuing to gain strength but not raw weight you are likely eating enough (for now) but not so much that you are putting on fat as well. You are probably also dropping some of your body fat.

A protein shake after you work out and again right before you go to bed will let your body build muscle and may be all you need to keep putting on muscle at a modest pace without fat. There is no need to drink a dozen shakes a day. Just give your body something to work with after a hard workout. During the night your body will consume some of your muscle for fuel while you sleep, a shake before bed helps not only prevent that but also allows you to continue to grow.

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Hektore

Weight loss/Muscle loss is the simplest way to determine if you're in any kind of state of malnutrition. Find a reliable way to determine your lean body mass (your total mass - any fat you may be carrying = lean body mass). A body fat scale is probably the easiest, as long as you continue to increase your LBM then you probably are doing just fine in terms of total calorie/fat/carbohydrate/protein intake. The only question that remains is if you could increase the rate at which you gain mass.

This is why people take supplements. To maximize the speed of their gain, and the return on their workouts. However, for some reason, a lot of folks don't like to admit that you can accomplish the same thing through diet without the supplements.

What I would do if I were in your situation is: eat a little more at each meal throughout the day. Increase your total calorie intake slowly, until you start to put on some fat, then back off a little bit. This may not be your theoretical max, but it should be pretty close. It will also prevent you having to go through the weight loss cycles mentioned previously.

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Jimellow

Thanks again for the replies.

I am definitely getting stronger, but am not putting on as much mass as others that I see at the gym. As an example: One of the guys I talk to on occasion is taking creatine, and much of his mass is water-based. He commented that I am more cut than he is and that it must be nice to show definition without having to work at it. This is primarily a result of my body type and higher metabolism; or at least that is my suspicion, and I don't mind that.

I go to the gym to get stronger, and I've always figured that growth would come with that, but if lack of caloric intake/protein is limiting the potential gain, then it might be worthwhile for me to consider a supplement.

Furthermore, I'm not necessarily looking to get "huge" or add substantial body mass in the form of muscle. I go to the gym regularly and definitely am seeing results in terms of definition and general strength. I'm content with the progress I've made and continue to make, and I would only really be interested in pursuing supplements if they would fill a deficiency that I may be lacking as a result of not eating enough food throughout the day.

Are calories taken in via supplement considered "good" calories? I suspect they aren't on par with the type of found in natural, healthy, foods, but where would they be classified in comparison to those found in junk food, for instance?

Also, can the supplements be unhealthy or detrimental towards one's health if they're taken in excess? Hypothetically, if I were to stop all physical activity and continue to take the supplements, would I see an increase in mass in the form of fat?

__________________
Desperation is no excuse for lowering one's standards.

cadre

I'd just like to start out by saying that there is no scientific evidence that eating 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight will have any benefit. (At least not last I checked).

There are protein powders out there designed for everyone's needs. You'll almost always be able to find one that meets your standards.

Adding calories may cause you to start gaining fat, it may also cause you to gain muscle faster. It really depends on how your body is doing right now. If you do start seeing extra fat, cut back on the shakes.

I would say it's probably a good idea to go through the motions of calculating how much you take in and how much you burn for at least 3 days. That will inform you on whether you even need more calories, and how many you might need. It makes all of this much easier and much less speculatory.

This approach may not necessarily help the OP. Adding food may help, but he should also consider adding meals, instead of just adding to his current meals. Shakes make this very easy. Studies show that if you eat smaller amounts more often, your metabolism will stay higher and you will feel less inclined to over eat.

It's sometimes hard to tell if you are eating the right amount without sitting down and actually adding everything up. If you are severely starving yourself then it might be easy, you'd notice muscle loss and a lack of energy. However, if you are simply eating a bit less than you should, you may not know. You could just be making progress slower than you would if you were eating more. It's really hard to tell without doing the math.

A lot of people take protein supplements as a way to get extra calories into their diet. Some people take them specifically to get protein. In reality most people take protein supplements because they think it will do something magical. It won't.

You will not get huge muscles by adding a protein shake into your diet.

I use protein off and on as a way to get protein and carbs into my body after a work out or a way to add a meal.

I really have to disagree with this. Musclemilk in not at all one of the best protein supplements. By taking musclemilk vs other products, you are adding unwanted saturated fats and sugars to your diet. Musclemilk tastes good but for a reason.

Calories from supplements can be good or bad calories depending on the supplement itself. One of the reasons I dislike musclemilk for instance is that it has so many bad calories. And by this I mean calories from sugars and saturated fats. Those will not help you.

Protein calories from supplements are not bad calories but their not always good calories either. If you take to much you will see an increase in fatty tissue.

Okay so basically, it sounds like you want extra calories and I'll tell you right now that you don't need to get a powder that is 100% protein. You can get a powder that is 30% carbs and be just fine. As I said first, there's no proof that you need 1 g of protein per pound of body weight. In fact, if your average person ate that way, he or she would be eating way too much. There's nothing wrong with adding protein, but there's also nothing wrong with adding complex carbs. Protein will function to rebuild your muscle and after all other energy sources are depleted it will then fuel other body functions.

There are thousands of protein powders out there with thousands of different ingredients. I'm positive you can find one that fits your needs.

If you want something that has just the protein in it and very little sugar or anything else, look at trueprotien.com . True Protein will do custom mixes of their powders for you also but that requires some knowledge of types of proteins and carbs. Their proteins are high quality and they have a taste scale which is pretty accurate (ie a protein will be rated a 7 out of 10 for taste).

If you would like a protein that gives you a little more, consider going to a store and reading labels. One of the brands that I've really come to like is Myoplex. The reason I use Myoplex now vs True Protein (which I used while cutting) is that Myoplex offers products with varying amounts of carbs so that you can get what you want. Much of their carbs are simple sugars so I like the light version. The other thing that I really like is that Myoplex supplements their protein with at least 20 essential vitamins and minerals. There's also nothing along the lines of creatine or caffeine in there.

Long post. Sorry but I hope that helps.

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Plan9

Protein supplements are friggin' expensive. Especially any big name.

Can't I just eat a ton of tuna and hardboiled egg whites?

...

And what's wrong with creatine? Research has shown it to be quite beneficial.

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G5_Todd

Alrighty I may be in the same boat as you, I have a tough time putting on weight (unless I eat crap, but I eat pretty healthy).

I would recommend Optimum Nutrition Pro Complex Gainer - 1 serving has about 700 calories, 60 grams of protein. The protein in this blend is a slower absorbing protein good for taking about an hour or 2 before bed so you can break it down as you sleep. I usually make two shakes of this a day. One of which I take as my last meal of the day about an hour b4 bed.

I also take Optimum Nutrition Gold Standard Whey Protein. I use this faster absorbing protein as a post workout shake.

My goal is to take in atleast 200 grams of protein a day but I prefer to get 300 grams. 1.5 grams per pound....

Now I realize you say you dont want to take creatine or many other supplements but I will just let you know what I have had good results with.

In my postwork out shake I take glutamine, creatine, with my protein.




I also make my shakes with pasturized egg whites and milk....makes them alot tastier...


I also take CLA and fishoil gel capsules with dinner.


My goals may be different than yours but I am attempting to gain 30 pounds of muscle. I am 190 and want to get to 220. Last time I was into lifting I made it to 215 but then went to basic training and came back 178 pounds.

but if you want some decent info on creatine try http://www.absolute-creatine.com/ if i spelt that wrong just google it...i got that link off these forums about 6 years ago...good info there.

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thingstodo

I love Optimum Nutrition (ON) Vanilla Ice Cream and love it. I purchase from Vitacost and the 2 lbs is about $20 and the 5 lbs is around $40 or so.

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UnclearContent

I second All The Whey. Great brand, reasonable prices.

Increase calories until you start putting on more weight. If you put on more fat than you want cut the calories back. Don't be afraid of a little body fat; it's nearly impossible to gain muscle without gaining some fat. You can lose it easily later on.

Creatine is found in red meat. Eat enough steak and you can reach supplement dosage levels. Creatine does add water weight, in a ratio of about 1:4 creatine to water. The increased muscle size will give a lever advantage when lifting and usually adds a few (but only a few) pounds to some of your lifts. Creatine really shines when we discuss its ability to prevent muscle loss due to inactivity. I've heard it now recommended to athletes who are injured to prevent the normal size and strength loss you would get from having a joint immobilized. In the end creatine is one of the very, very few supplements that has some real science backing it up.

The cardio could be impacting your muscle gains. One way to manage this would be to focus on your lifting while just maintaining your current cardio level. Don't add miles to your run while trying to add pounds to the bar. Pick the one you want to focus on and don't try to progress on the other. After some time switch the two.

Good Calories vs Bad Calories: Eat enough of the healthiest damn thing on the planet and you will gain fat. High-quality protein powder is not a junk food. However, it's better to get your protein from a variety of sources so don't limit your protein intake to just powder scraped out of a plastic jug. Avoid overly processed (read: nutrient sparse) foods and avoid trans fats. Eat free-range meats and eggs from cage-free birds. Make sure you get enough fat in your diet, both saturated and mono unsaturated.

Saturated fats are not bad for you. They are actually required for a healthy hormone balance. It should be consumed in moderation but not ignored.

Muscle Milk is a great brand. They actually designed their shakes to pattern the nutrient ratios found in human breast milk. Think about the logic behind this; it's beautiful. The one food that, by itself, can support a human in growing to many times of his/her original size ... wait for it ... breast milk! Someone figured this might be a good mix for a person wanting to add muscle later in life. The logic isn't flawless but it's pretty nonetheless.

If you're concerned about eating animal-based saturated fats go out and buy some organic coconut milk. Pure saturated fat and it makes a protein shake taste like heaven.

Jimellow

This thread has been very informative and I refer to it constantly as I consider the prospect of protein supplements and whether they're right for me.

I've since come up with two more questions that I'd appreciate feedback on:

1) Are there any medical/health concerns in regards to taking these supplements? The reason I ask is that upon viewing the ingredients in the various supplements, I noticed quite a few long, complex, and/or artificial sounding names, and I'm curious if there are any health risks associated with taking a given supplement over an extended period of time. I understand that the supplements aren't natural, and thus have a lot of substances in them that you wouldn't necessarily find in the produce isle, but I'm curious about there being concerns with how the body accepts and deals with the various and more complex ingredients found in a given supplement.

2) Regarding size and cost: How long does a 2 lb. tub generally last, and if you were to give a loose estimation of how much you spend on protein supplements per month, what would it be? For the sake of this question, let's assume it's a supplement in powder form that would be mixed with a drink or made into a smoothie, and not a bar or other form of supplement.

There is a lot of good information here and I've found that I generally don't digest it all at once. Thus I will likely return and ask follow-up questions to previous posts as I read and investigate their recommendations.

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UnclearContent

1) Again, look at AllTheWhey.com

Link to the nutritional info on the flavorless whey protein isolate:

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-6938650...2067_156283741

Check out the ingredients listed at the bottom. Only one: Whey Protein. Whey is a by product of producing cheese. Comes from milk. How much more natural can you get?

As for risks, always consult a doctor before starting a supplement regimen. Don't make whey protein your only source of protein. It's a supplement, not a meal replacement.

2) Get the 5lb tubs. Better cost.

A single 5 lb tub can last me from one to three months depending on how much I take. If my regular diet is good I don't need to supplement as much. If my recovery is good I don't need to supplement as much. If I'm really busy and can't cook or if my recovery starts to decline I increase the whey I consume.

cadre

Yes, saturated fats aren't necessarily bad but how often do you meet someone who does not get enough from their normal diet? That said, saturated fats do make shakes taste better.

As far as muscle milk goes, I didn't know it was designed after breast milk but that doesn't change my opinion of the nutrient mix. Personally, I've never come across someone drinking breast milk as a way to gain lean mass.

1) Protein isn't going to cause any major health problems for most people but you should still speak with your doctor just in case. Protein can create problems for people with certain health problems. It's not like creatine and other supplements though, you won't get an increased heart rate or anything like that. That said, some powders contain additives and you do have to watch out for that. The really good powders have limted additives. Do research; if you don't know what something is, you can always google it.

2) During my last cut I did an extreme diet thing. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone but the idea here is I went through 20 pounds of protein in four weeks. That got expensive. Usually, if I have one shake a day, I go through two pounds every couple of months. The factors that will determine your cost are: the type of protein supplement, the amount you use per shake, and the number of shakes per day. My current protein costs 17.99 for two pounds FWIW.

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G5_Todd

how many shakes a day was that cuz thats friggin crazy.....

cuz the pro compex gainer i take says it has 14 servings(in the 5 pound container)....it seems like it has more cuz it lasts me about 2 weeks. but if i did two servings a day from that it could be 20 pounds in a month....which would be about a 120 bucks....

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cadre

That was 5-6 shakes a day. It was a version of the Velocity Diet (which, by the way, I am not suggesting to anyone).

__________________
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G5_Todd

next month i am going to try to be a eatting machine...

i just cant seem to break 190, so im going to hit it hard for a month and see what results i get 300 grams a day half of which will prolly be in the form of shakes. i am also going to go back on a 8 week cycle of creatine and see how that helps...

__________________
"....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy."

-General Franks