frozenstellar

1. There are three of us living in an apartment - myself, Ms A & Mr C
2. Ms A purchased the place - and is leasing rooms to me and Mr C
3. Me & Ms A get along really well, and find it no difficulty to live with one another. we just really 'click' and it makes living here very enjoyable.
4. No - Ms A & I are just good friends - neither of us see each other in any other way than that.
5. Mr C is too used to living by himself - he just doesnt 'fit' into the sharehouse as such. We're all early 20s and moved here from out of town, so me & Ms C try and get amongst it to have as much fun and meet new people. He's not one to go out and get amongst it at all - he just doesnt maintain a social life with either of us, which is fine if that is what he wishes to do - but it's not what we're after in the house, we want someone who will get into it.
6. A good friend of mine from HS and a great friend of Ms A from uni is dead keen for Mr C's room after we mentioned that if someone was interested in the room, we'd see about evicting him. We both know what she is like, and exactly what we're after in terms of a 3rd housemate
7. Paying up of his share of expenses/rent has never been an issue
8. Rent is an verbal arrangement - no formal leases or anything
9. This arrangement has been in place since July last year.
10. He is happily ignorant that he doesnt mix with the rest of the house, and as such this will come as a massive shock to him.

so after discussions with the potential new housemate tonight, both me & Ms A are facing the issue of having to breaking the news to Mr C that he's got to go.

There is going to be no easy way to do it - I know that. What I'm hopeful for from the wise folk here is if you have been in this experience, either giving notice or receiving marching orders yourself... things like:

Honesty I think here is going to be the best way to go about it in terms of telling him why its come about. Ms A will have to lead the conversation as she owns the place, but I feel its appropriate that I be there and contribute as I am part of the household. Yes/No? Should we mention that he's being replaced straight up because we've been thinking about this for some time, but only now has something actually come up?

What kind of notice is reasonable? We don't want to be bastards about it, but if we leave it open ended, the motivation for him to find a place will be non-existent, so what to do?

I know we're likely burning any bridge we had with this guy, but i didn't know him before I moved in, and Ms A is in a similar boat (he was a uni acquiantence, thats about it)

I'm not the greatest with confrontation like this, so I'm quite concerned about having this conversation, but both Ms A & I agree it has to happen, we're just not happy with the current living arrangements. I'm just trying to track down any advice on how to tackle it, because I've never had to do something like this before.

Manic_Skafe

Seems to me like all of your reasons for wanting him out are bullshit.

I've heard real roommate horror stories and your qualms with him stem from the fact that he doesn't mesh well with the group - that's nonsense. He pays his share of the bills, what more is there to ask of him?

The fact that you all have no formal contract and are willing enough to mix friendship with business is proof enough of the fact that you and Ms. A are incapable of successfully and fairly managing your living arrangements.

What happens if your friend moves in and decides she's going to stiff you and Ms. A with the bills? You have no contract and frankly, if you two are having a hard enough time kicking someone out because he won't be your best friend - how will you two ever be capable of kicking out someone you actually like?

...

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sapiens

Ms. A owns the house and there's no lease, right? I don't think wanting to live with people you like is bullshit.

It sounds like an awkward situation. I don't have any good advice about getting rid of your housemate. I do think that Ms. A should have leases for everyone who is renting from her (including you, frozenstellar).

Manic_Skafe

You're right - fairness, karma, kindness, candor, civility, consideration, courtesy, decency, decorum, , due, duty, equitableness, equity, exactitude, fair shake*, fair-mindedness, good faith, goodness, honesty, honor, humanity, impartiality, integrity, justness, legitimacy, open-mindedness, propriety, rationality, reasonableness, right, righteousness, rightfulness, rightness, seemliness, square deal*, suitability, tolerance, truth, uprightness, veracity - all useless concepts.

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Cynthetiq

So if you fall out of favor, would you want or expect some sort of protection that Ms. A couldn't just one day wake up and ask you to leave for any bullshit reason?

I'd also agree that some sort of lease/contract should exist between all parties. Friends is friends, business is business.

The person pays the rent on time and has completed their obligations fairly.

Australian legislation Residential Tenancies Act 1995

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jewels

If it's been in place since July, then June 30th would seem to be the expiration date of the verbal lease. I don't agree with what you're doing, but since there is no written lease, she could give him notice now so that he at least has ample time to find a place.

I agree with the consensus. There definitely needs to be a lease.

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sapiens

As I said, a lease is necessary to protect both parties. Without a formal lease, is Ms. A obligated to let the guy live there indefinitely because he pays his rent and isn't a pain? It isn't exactly a formal tenant-landlord situation.

Clearly, the obligations in this informal sharehouse setting are different from those of a standard lease.

I like jewels' one year from the beginning of the arrangement idea.

The_Jazz

You know, I read this thread as it was first posted this morning and hit the back button. Call it self-editing.

This is unfair. You two are basically tossing the guy out because he's not the friend you want to move in. You've made up your collective mind and are moving forward with all deliberate speed to get him out. Not because he's a slob or unfriendly or keeps dead cats in the freezer. No, you're just not as friendly with him as you are with the other guy. And that sucks. Personally, I think you should show the guy your post - that will probably motivate him to move all on his own. I know I wouldn't want to be in that kind of situation. This all just seems incredibly selfish to me.

So if you're going to do this (and I doubt my little scolding will have any influence at all), then you need to be as fair as possible to Mr. C. Tell him that you've got someone else who is very interested in the room, and that he wants to move in within 90 days. Tell him you'll work with him if he needs more time. Typicially leases are signed 60 days in advance of a move-in date, although that's not written in stone. Don't expect him to move out next week. And expect that your happy little home will be considerably frostier until he leaves.

And you should definitely get a lease out of Ms. A as soon as possible. Who knows when she's going to tire of you and kick you to the curb like you're both doing to Mr. C?

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"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

sapiens

Yes, just tossing someone out is unfair. I don't think that giving someone who has no lease adequate time to move out is unfair. Say, a year from the beginning of the arrangement?

Yes, wanting to live with people you like in your own home is selfish. So is wanting to live with your wife and child rather than some random people who keep quiet and pay their rent. (Like me! I'd like a summer home in Chicago. Can I use your spare room?)

Cynthetiq

here in NYC even if you let someone sleep on your sofa for 30 days informally/non written agreement, they have ALL the protections of any other renter or leasee. This is to protect people from being tossed out onto the street unfairly for whatever reason, from not liking the person to just wanting your sofa back.

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The_Jazz

As I see it, Mr. C has no idea this is coming. That's what I find unfair. He's been a good roommate. His only sin seems to be that he isn't the other guy. That's my objection, not the adequate time. Sorry if I didn't make that clearer.

According to the OP, they don't dislike Mr. C. They just like the other guy more. And the OP doesn't own the house; he's a renter who's seeking advice. I agree things would be different if he were the owner or if Ms. A had posted this herself. The rest of your argument is a bit of a strawman, though. I don't rent my house to my wife and kids. They all live here with me as co-owners (at least as far as my wife is concerned). If I chose to rent out the spare room to you (not that you're not welcome to visit), I'd have to clear it with The_Wife first since she's also an owner. If she rented from me, it might be a different story.

Back in the day, I lived in a huge apartment overlooking Lake Michigan with 2 of my best friends. It was under $500 per person with 2400 square feet. It was a seriously sweet space. When my friends got job opportunities elsewhere, it fell to me to replace them, and as the principle lease holder, I had to make these kinds of decisions. That's why I'm so incredulous about the situation.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Jinn

I feel exactly the same way, all the through from reading this at 6AM and hitting back to thinking it's incredibly unfair.

The only way to be "fair" and "kind" about this is to tell him WHY you're evicting him. Don't just say "the lease is up!" or that you're not meshing well, but that you're not meshing well AND there is someone you'd like to move in instead of him. At least let him know the truth, if your goal really to be as fair and kind as possible. It's the least you can do.

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jewels

I wholly agree that the situation is unfair to Mr C.

However, he chose tenancy without a lease. Technically speaking, he should be well aware that anything could happen, unless there was more to the agreement than the OP states.

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Ustwo

Yea it sucks to be that guy, but its her house she can do what she wants with it. Its just going to be an uncomfortable conversation.

Only if you are hot, and a chick, and like to parade around naked.

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Cynthetiq

if someone like that moves in, can I come over?

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

sapiens

And at some point, there must be some way to get that person off of your sofa. Or are you obligated to provide housing forever?

If anyone is doing the "tossing", it has to be the owner. I have been thinking about the situation from the point of the owner, not the "tenant" that posted.

I know that you don't rent to your wife and kids. I'm not equating your family situation with the situation in the OP (at least in a legal sense). My argument regarding that situation is that it is not unreasonable to want to live with people you like. Is wanting someone to move out of your home because you're not friends with them "bullshit" (as Manic_Skafe argued)? What is the owner supposed to do if she doesn't want to live with the guy anymore? Move? If there was a lease, she would be obligated to live up to the terms of the lease. There isn't a lease. She needs to do more than just toss the guy, but she is not obligated to live with him forever.

I do think that the owner should be honest with the "tenant". I also agree that the situation isn't ideal. It's certainly unfair to toss someone out on the street. Is it ever fair to ask someone who pays rent to move? Are people who want to live with those they enjoy being around assholes?
But I'm neat, quiet, and I pay rent. Isn't that enough for you?

Cynthetiq

No, you have to provide the same notifications as someone who has a standard lease, generally 30 days notice is acceptable to the housing courts.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.