Willravel

Jeez, there's a lot of good information in here! Thanks, Red!

Quick question: why does my contour pillow hurt my neck?

Redlemon

Yeah, my wife makes the money.
Very close: they are the Erector spinae (Wikipedia link, if you want to see more).
For massage, splinting is more of a caution; we can "release" the splinting muscles, but they'll just tense back up again very soon if there is still an underlying injury. Without knowing what the actual injury is, it's hard to tell. After a couple of years, the primary injury should be healed, but if it healed with adhesions, it is possible that the adhesions need to be broken and allowed to reform in a manner that allow for more movement (this technique would be "cross-fiber friction", which can be painful).

After the injury is healed, the splinting should go away mostly on its own.
Write down as much as you can about your injury and show it to your PT. You might forget to tell them everything when you see them face to face.

I'm guessing that the combination of your sleeping position + the height of the contour pillow + the distance the mattress deforms below you <> a straight line for your spine.

Or it might be that your room is too cold, and your neck muscles cramp up, no matter what height the pillow. I see many "limited neck range of motion" issues at abrupt changes of season.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

abaya

Once again, thanks much. I'll take all this info to the PT next week (I just made an appointment for Monday, hooray!).

But man, a couple of YEARS for the primary injury to heal?... wow. I've been trying to keep moving, walking, even running while I've had this back pain, keeping up some of my normal lifestyle (I'm not an athlete, just trying to stay in shape and do some 5K/10K runs) but now I'm wondering if I should even be doing that. I love hiking, but when I'm climbing stairs, I get that splinting feeling again (assuming that's the issue here)... so I wonder if I'll have to give it up for a while. Is there any way of finding out what the primary injury is, if not through massage then perhaps with an MRI?... or is that unnecessary. Does massage (and/or PT) help to prevent the adhesions?

Thanks again, so very helpful!!!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Redlemon

I'll be interested to hear what you learn from that appointment; please post back.
I can't say how long an injury takes to heal; reinjuring it is certainly a possibility. Cross Fiber Friction is a technique where you deeply rub against the direction of the muscle fibers, which spreads the fibers apart and may cause the adhesions (aka scar tissue) to break. Then you make sure to use the muscles so that the new scar tissue that is created is "mobile", it doesn't interfere as much with the proper motion of the muscle.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

ktspktsp

Hi Redlemon!

Time for yet another question from Reykjavik .

I have a bit of a posture problem (I tend to hunch) and I was also in a car accident in 2005 where my car was hit from both sides and spun to around, so there was a lot of torsion in that accident.

I notice that a spot in my back, on the erector spinae, that sometimes hurts. Especially if I do improper lifting, or if I do my gym exercises improperly; but sometimes with no reason (except probably the bad posture).

I got a massage recently (on our short trip to the US) and the masseuse mentioned that the muscle was "fibrotic" (or something like that) in that area, that it had lost some elasticity and gotten stiff. She said I would need to get that area massaged quite often to release that stress over that area; also the chiropractor that was there mentioned something about cross fiber friction. Does that sound right to you? Any ideas on how much massaging is needed there?

Thanks!

dlish

Redlemon

ive had a stiff neck for a few years now. its not so stiff that i cant move it, but i always need to crack it as the day goes on. i feel that if i dont crack it it would stay tight.

i try to massage it with my hands, but its quite difficult.

i assume i know part of the problem is. i sit in bed with my laptop with usually my head arched forward towards the screen. the other part is stress.

i also find that early in the morning my neck is the least tense, but as the day goes on it gets more tense.

a related problem i also have is that if i arch my neck back as far as i can i get pain in my spine around my shoulder blade area.

ive had massage to my neck previously, but by the next day im all tensed up again.

what would you reccomend?

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

settie

Awesome thread idea! And congrats Redlemon!
I have a question or two for you:

In the winter I experienced sharp sharp pains, that were unable to be confirmed as kidney stones (ultrasound was apparently not clear enough, and done too late).
I was in so much pain, I desperately scheduled an appointment with a registered and licensed massage therapist. It helped for as long as the massage worked, and maybe up to an hour later.

Anyways, my question was, are there any massage techniques that help "soothe" the kidneys?

I also found it really really hard to relax my shoulders during the massage, making it tough for the masseuse. But this made me notice I keep my shoulders tight regularly, even when I think I'm relaxing. How do I get into the routine of keeping them relaxed rather than all clenched up?

Last question: I have had chronic shin splints since I was 9 thanks to the sports I did. Something as lame as being inactive for half a day, then walking around the next half, can make my shins hurt like hell. I realize this is more like damage done to my bones growing up from the intense sports, but is there any sort of massage I could do to reduce shin splints?

Thank you, and best of luck with your new profession!

Redlemon

I'm breaking your question into 2 parts because it is worth noting this part. We call hunching "forward shoulder posture", and it is typically caused by hypertonicity (tightness) in the pectoralis major and pectoralis minor muscles. Especially pec.minor; this muscle, when tight, will pull your shoulderblades around and forward. This then forces your back muscles to be constantly stretched tight, resulting in pain. Tight pec.major results in painful upper trapezius, and tight pec.minor results in painful rhomboids.

Sitting in front of a computer brings your shoulderblades around and forward, and holding the pectoral muscles in a shortened position for an extended period of time can convince them that they should remain shortened, and this leads to hypertonicity. There are some good stretches on the right-hand column of this page: Chest Exercise Menu.
Yes; it is what I was telling Abaya about above. Muscle fibers are all in line with each other (think about a chicken breast). In your accident, a muscle tore. Your body repaired the tear by laying down new muscle fibers; however, these new fibers were laid down randomly, not in line with the original fibers. This restricts the available range of motion for that muscle. Cross fiber friction will be a bit painful, because it will be breaking up those fibers that interfere with the muscle motion. It is important to then stretch that muscle as your body rebuilds the fibers, so that they are more in-line with the original fibers.

How much? I couldn't say. Until you feel better.

Joint manipulation, which is what chiropractors do, is outside the scope of massage therapy. Oddly, we never covered the question "why does my neck feel better when I crack it?" in our classes. I'll research a bit more and come back to this; I found the article Don't Crack Your Neck! by a chiropractor, but I'm not sure if it is a scare tactic or good science.

I recommend breaking your bad habits first; you already know that your computer posture is bad. Get a laptop stand or something.

Second, you mention pain between your shoulderblades; that's the rhomboids, which I mentioned to ktspktsp; follow the links for pectoralis minor stretches.

Massage can help you as well.

I can't think of any way to massage a kidney. I just checked my "Massage Therapist's Guide to Pathology" (awesome book), and it doesn't have much to add regarding kidney stones, only that massage isn't that useful in the middle of an episode.

Since you noted that you felt better for an hour, then the pain came back, I'm thinking that you were "splinting", much like I told Abaya. Your body was spasming your back muscles to help hold your kidney from moving, and the therapist may have relieved the tension in those back muscles. Then your body decided it still needed the protection, and returned the spasm.
See my answer to ktspktsp regarding stretching your pecs. I try to do this a couple of times a day, and it really feels good.
Shin splints are not bone damage, they are muscle damage. It could be adhesions following muscle tears, trigger points, or a combination of the two. A massage therapist trained in sports massage should be able to help you.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

settie

Yeah, that makes sense. My back was giving me some pretty bad spasms when I was passing the kidney stone. And it was really focused pain, right in the flank. Damn kidney stones...
I'll have to give those exercises a try. I should be able to get back on track fast, I used to be a ballet dancer, and had to keep good posture. :P
I wonder, would it also be caused by sleeping positions? I'm only ever comfortable sleeping on my stomach, which is bad, I know. Perhaps the way I stretch my back muscles when I sleep, or compress them, is keeping my shoulders so tight.
Wow, I didn't think shin splints were so muscle damage focused. I always figured I had chronic shin splints because I had osgood slaughter disease growing up, and never really gave my lower legs and knees the rest they needed.
The next time I get a massage, I'll see if she can massage the shins.
Thanks for all your advice, you've been very helpful.

Redlemon

Consider a cylindrical pillow (bolster) under your ankles when face down; we use that on the massage table to add some slack to your lower back muscles.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Willravel

I turned my pillow around so that my neck rested on the smaller hump (the opposite of this picture:
)
It feels a lot better, which would suggest that the contour pillow may not be the right shape for the way I sleep. My spine salutes you!

ktspktsp

Thanks for the tips Redlemon! I will give those stretches a try soon

dlish

thanks for the advice and link redlemon. trying not to crack my neck at the moment but its hard to stop!

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Redlemon

Bouncing my old thread, since "Ask a..." seems to be popular this week.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

ShaniFaye

I have a question. Was there anything special you did to get yourself where your hands didnt wear out? It seems no matter how often I try to massage Dave my hands get SO tired after a very little amount of time

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Redlemon

Sure... you are using your hands wrong. You are flexing at your fingers and wrist to provide your power. Instead, you want to get the power from your legs. This is why we have the massage table or massage chair; it puts the client at the right height for you to get a mechanical advantage.

It is more difficult to use this method when it is the two of you both sitting on the couch, and probably both turned to the side. (The other thing that the massage table does is discourage the client from using any of their muscles. If you are sitting up, some of your muscles are in active contraction.) Try working with Dave in a chair, and you standing behind him. Rather than grabbing his back muscles, push into them by holding your arm out and shifting your center of balance towards him.

Also consider using your forearms (not your elbow, until you know what you are doing) for additional force.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

ShaniFaye

well usually he's laying on the bed and I'm straddling him lol

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Redlemon

Yeah, you won't get that much leverage that way. Try standing beside the bed instead.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

ShaniFaye

I will give it a go, but Im pretty sure the bed isnt high enough to keep MY back from hurting while doing it lol I have short arms lol

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Redlemon

Bend from the knees, not from the back. Again, it's all leg power.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

dlish

red,

i have shin splints that flare up whenever i up the intensity of my running, but long distance trekking is generally fine.

my feet pronate quite a lot and ive had orthotics since i was 13.

ive been told that my shin splints may be partly due to tight calf muscles. what do you reccomend?

my shins flare up just after i run, its not distance related. apart from brufen and ice, what do you reccomend in terms of massage and stretching to keep my shin muscles flexible and loose?

do you come across these sorts of issues often? your thoughts would be helpful

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Redlemon

dlish - I haven't done much in the way of sports massage. I hope to expand my "medical massage" knowledge in the future. Other MTs could certainly help you with this.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

dlish

thats ok red..what would you reccomend in terms of keeping them loose? whats the best way to self massage a calf?

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Baraka_Guru

I'm thinking of getting a massage at a student clinic of the prominent massage school here in Toronto. It's $37 for an hour with a student vs. around $80 for a registered massage. The relaxation massages (vs. therapeutic) are done by first-year students. There is instructor/student interactions during this, as it is, of course, a teaching clinic. I'm okay with that.

Is this a bad idea?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

m0rpheus

Thank you for answering the underwear question. I had actually planned to see an RMT for the first time and I wasn't exactly sure what the underwear protocol was.

__________________
"it never got weird enough for me." - Hunter S. Thompson

Redlemon

Not at all. For one thing, all students have to go through clinic, so someone has to be the recipient. Also, they have probably already taken a practical exam on the techniques that they are using, so you won't have to worry about proficiency. The clinics are mostly about gaining a comfort level with massaging people that you don't already know.

I can think of two possible disadvantages; one, at least at our school, there were about 8 tables in a room, divided with those ceiling curtains you find in hospitals. If one client is chatty, it can affect the other 7 tables. That school may handle it differently, however. Two, you will probably have to fill out a written evaluation form at the end of the session.

---------- Post added at 08:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:57 AM ----------

You might consider one of those vibrating tools. However, don't work too long or deep on the calf; they can be prone to cramping when overworked, which sucks.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Baraka_Guru

Redlemon, what's your opinion of shiatsu?

Several years ago, I had a free 10-minute sample at a vegetarian food fair and I found it quite interesting in terms of technique. I recall them working out some serious tension in my back. (I have bad posture.) A year or so later, I had a professional massage of some kind for about 45 minutes I think. I don't quite recall how I felt about it. I'm sure I was really relaxed afterwards. I do recall thinking that I should get more regular massages but not really being able (or willing, I guess) to afford it.

Just out of the blue today, I decided to seek out a shiatsu place near me. I have seen them around, and there are a few places. One place I found had prices listed clearly on their website (not all places do this). They also had walk-in options. The difference being that appointments start at 30 minutes and go up from there, while walk-ins start at 10 minutes and go up in 5-minute increments and are a bit cheaper.

So basically for $20, I got a 15-minute shiatsu that focused on my back (again with the bad posture). Beyond some expected back work, there was some interesting arm/shoulder blade manipulations that felt incredible. Like he was really getting in there into the deeper muscles. Then he worked on my neck and stretched my back a bit and he was done.

Yeah, so when I stood up it felt like I just woke up from a kick-ass cat nap where someone snuck up while I was sleeping and injected me with some really good painkillers.

That said, I now like the idea of spending a mere $20 once or twice a month to get a 15-minute shiatsu as a stress/tension buster.

What do you think?
Shiatsu okay as a technique?
Frequency/duration/price okay?
Suggest alternatives?

I guess I like the idea that these people are registered therapists and not students. I also like the idea that they're a 20-minute walk from my place, they take walk-ins, and are open 7 days a week. However, there are other options in the neighbourhood; I'm just not sure of the full details.

The shiatsu place I went to also does Swedish massage.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Redlemon

B_G: I'm totally sorry, I fell off TFP for a few weeks there. Life got busy, and the longer you are away, the more time you need to set aside to catch up. So, now I'm here.

I do not know Shiatsu. I work entirely in the Western area of massage, as meridians and energy fields do not make sense in my mind. That's not to say that they don't work; it is just my (current) decision.

Sounds like you found something that works for you, and that's awesome. I'd probably recommend a few sessions at once per two weeks, then back it off from there once they can work all the initial junk out. The price is certainly reasonable as well.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Baraka_Guru

Hey, no worries. I know that many TFPers have cyclical participation here, and so I was simply patiently waiting your response.

I too am not too sure about the whole meridian/energy field thing; however, there is no denying the very real impact the massage it had on me. I also realize that shiatsu bases its therapy on the same principles as acupuncture (it's essentially "acupressure"), which, although not without its controversies, is supported by several prominent organizations as an effective treatment for various conditions (pain and stress being two obvious ones).

Even if it's all bullocks, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with it. I assume superficially that it's similar to deep-tissue massage, with a bit of stretching. So if that's all it is, then I'll still take it.

Thanks for your feedback. I was thinking of perhaps doing once every two weeks or a single longer session once a month.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Redlemon

Similarly, while I don't do reflexology (which is treating all the body organs through spots on the feet), I know that anytime my wife has a sinus issue, she always has the same sensitive spot on her feet, and working there hard makes her sinuses drain.

My basic viewpoint -- science can explain everything, eventually. Just because we don't have the science yet doesn't mean that it isn't true. But, I need to be able to envision what is happening before I get comfortable with it.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

chinese crested

Redlemon - do you have any experience with scoliosis? Other than rods in spine or back braces which apparently dont work once they are off - is there anything you can think of? An trying to learn to swim again - thought maybe better muscles might help. Mine is from being driving a fiesta when some sicko pervo truck driver tried to mount it. No not one of those strage men who has sex with cars - he was driving his truck at the time. For lower back pain the nice and naive lamb they threw to the slaughter, Yve - he was demonstrating the pelvic thrust from the timewharp. He had to show us several times, as we ladies were having problems wagtching his first demonstration. Maybe we would all be healthier if we all took up tap dancing everywhere - the world would most certainly be more colourfull. I am affected lower back and neck. Any sound advice would be most welcome.
Baraka - think lay lines. They feel for a 'glitch' and then work on smoothing it out so power flows freely along these lay lines. I work with sick/elderly/dying rescued dogs mostly, and use similar. It does make a difference to my poor old mates.

Redlemon

cc: funny, one of my hands-on case studies in Massage 3 was a guy with such severe scoliosis that he had to have some ribs removed, otherwise his internal organs would have been crushed. I hadn't heard of accident-induced scoliosis before your question.

If you came into my office and presented this case, I probably wouldn't work on you today. I'd want to talk to your medical team to ensure that I wouldn't be causing any damage. You might want to find someone who specializes in pure medical massage to have a look at you.

----------

Today's tip for men receiving massage: Don't wear boxers. Boxers are wicked annoying. They prevent me from accessing the top end of your thigh muscles. If half of your leg is covered, there's not much that I can do.

As I've said before, I prefer for clients not to wear underwear at all, but if you must, something in the bikini or brief category, please.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

snowy

So I have recurring issues with my left trapezius. It gets really tight and painful every once in a while, to the point that it will freeze up and I won't be able to move or lift my left arm without pain. I know it's my trapezius because after my husband works on it for a bit, it will loosen and relax. My husband taught himself some massage techniques out of various books from the library. Are there any techniques you would recommend for a novice such as my husband to use on my trapezius? I also try stretching it, and stretching the rest of my back and legs so that nothing is pulling on it to make it tense. If there are any stretches you know of that might help, please share those too.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Redlemon

I'm assuming you are referring to the upper trap, 'cause that's where everyone has their issues.

Here's a top-secret move for you, Snowy: positional release.

The theory behind positional release is to shorten the muscle past the point where it can hold a contraction, keep it there for 2 minutes while the muscle forgets that it was holding a contraction, then slowly bring it back to the original position.

Crazy, isn't it? But it really works.

Lie on your stomach on your bed, left side facing the edge of the bed, and face right (because the trapezius is a contralateral rotator).
Have your husband lift your left shoulder slightly with his left hand, and push the entire shoulderblade towards your ear. Not a painful push, just shorten it up as much as he comfortably can. I often use the elbow as a push/stabilization point for this.

Hold for two minutes.

Slowly (say, a count of 10) bring the arm back to the original position. Then you can do any stretches that you have come across.

The same move (without the head rotation) can also help your levator scapula, which is another muscle that frequently spasms in that area.

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

chinese crested

Thankyou Redlemon. Guess if I wasnt so lazy, I should be time wharping all over the show. Always the fear of the twilight home for the mentaly incompetent beckoning in the distance.