dirtyrascal7

This topic has been on my mind for a while now and I'm curious to hear other peoples' opinions about it.

I found a website strictly dealing with this topic called overlawyered.com, but it seems to be down at the moment... maybe they said something that offended someone and were sued, haha.

It seems every day we read about another frivolous lawsuit where someone is trying to blame someone else for their misfortune or stupidity. We have warning labels on everything for every reason in every language because people don't have the common sense, for example, to not use a microwave to dry their pet.

It reminds me of that scene in Forrest Gump where he's running and the bumper sticker guy comes up to him. Forrest steps in a pile of dog crap and the phrase "shit happens" is born, according to the movie. Today, Forrest would probably try and track down the dog's owner and sue him for emotional distress.

Unfortunately, I doubt the worst is over... but if it continues for too long, everyone will be afraid to express their opinions or release any new products for fear of someone suing them. Free speech is meaningless and the technological revolution is over... so where does that leave us?

I just don't understand how we got to this point. Are humans becoming dumber? Is it just pure greed? Why does everyone feel entitled to so much?

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"Tie yourself to your limitless potential, rather than your limiting past."

"Every man I meet is my superior in some way. In that, I learn of him."

Ch'i

Quite possibly, yes. Though I would argue that "misguided" would be a more accurate term.
Yes and no. Though greed plays a major role in lawsuits, and the general though proccess of your typical person, it also appeals to the id (the source of our drives). The typical person believes they deserve something, in one way or another. Since they usually do not get entirely what they desire, they reach out at any opportunity to close that gap between wishful-thinking and reality.
This, I think, comes from that very same desire described above. They feel they deserve to be listened to more than others. If this fails to happen they will seek vengeance in some way. Sometimes this manifests as tailgating on the highway, or walking around with a massive chip on their shoulder at the office. If one expects two, there will be disappointment when there is only one; if one expects nothing, everything and anything will be appreciated. Which leads back to the appropriate term for these people; misguided.

absorbentishe

Too many lawyers, period. The McD's lawsuit with the old lady and the hot coffee really started the trend. I'm sure there were others, but that made national headlines. Since then, I think everyone is looking for a way to get money for nothing...

The_Jazz

[sigh]

OK, as a guy that deals all day, every day in corporate liability my opinion is that there is no such thing as a "frivolous" lawsuit. There are fraudulent lawsuits where people are claiming injuries that either didn't happen at all or didn't happen the way that the claimant describes, but these aren't "frivolous" since they're based on lies. Fradulent suits are almost always either grounded in greed or revenge - there's rarely any other motive. People that file fraudulent suits are generally taken to task by the court and can end up paying the defendant's (or more like their insurance company's) legal costs. I see the loss information on every single account that I write, and in my experience the average amount spent to make one of these fraudulent cases go away is about $2,500. Sometimes it's more and sometimes it's less, but that's as good an average as I can come up with now.

One thing about meritless cases is that they tend to go away quickly. Filing suit is one of the only ways to get a company's attention sometimes.

The suit that generally cited as being the most "frivolous" is the McDonald's coffee case. I'm sure that would fit the definition of "human stupidity", at least until you actually review the facts of the case. Full disclosure - I know more than most on this particular case because I know the underwriter that ended up paying a good portion of the claim very well.

First of all, do you know who's responsible for this even going to court? It's not the insurance company - it's McDonald's. Their insurance program at the time covered them for claims over $1M, with McDonald's being responsible for handling all claims under that amount (called a self-insured retention or SIR). Given that this was a simple burn case without any major injuries (which in my world means death or loss of limb, etc.), it should have gone away for $100,000, but McDonald's didn't want to settle. They thought that they hadn't done anything wrong - and they had. What came out in court was that the lid on the cup didn't fasten correctly and the cup was overfilled. The employee at the drive-thru handed her (the claimant) a cup of coffee that was too hot to drink in a cup that was ready to spill. When she put it between her legs, it did spill. She orginally wanted her medical bills paid and an apology, but McDonald's wouldn't give her that so she had no recourse but to sue. It's not her fault the jury gave her an outrageous award (greatly reduced on appeal). If you have a problem, maybe it should be with the amount of punitive damages paid in this country - that can account for up to 75% of any judgement in some venues. Because McDonald's had the right to handle the claims up to $1M, they screwed themselves and their insurors by not giving her what she wanted since other claimants who had similar experiences generally decided it wasn't worth it to pursue the claim. Let me state for the record, in case it wasn't perfectly clear before, this woman was injured by the coffee and suffered some pretty severe burns, and that was, without a doubt, McDonald's fault. They knew, or should have known, that their coffee was too hot and that the lids didn't fasten correctly.

The most likely kind of lawsuit that's going to be deemed "frivolous" is a claim for bodily injury. And those are also the ones that are most likely to get paid - that's because the case usually has some degree of merit. If a manufacturer of a snowblower didn't warn you not to stick your hand down the chute because it's dangerous, they didn't take the necessary precautions to warn you about the use of their product. Labels are there generally because either manufacturers (or sometimes insurance companies) have found that people hurt themselves in the way described or it's easily imagined. Do you know why Q-tips have a label that they aren't supposed to used in the ear? It's because Johnson & Johnson had to pay after a bunch of people punctured their eardrums. And they paid not out of the goodness of their corporate hearts but because the courts told them to.

So, Forrest Gump is welcome to sue the owner of the dog that produced the shit he stepped in, but he didn't suffer an injury that's going to result in any court finding against the owner.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

sapiens

I think that too many lawyers are a symptom rather than the cause. Someone hired the lawyer in the McD lawsuit.



People are getting smarter, not dumber. It's called The Flynn Effect

I'm not sure that there is a single cause of decreases in personal responsibility. I'm also not even sure that there has been a decrease in personal responsibility. There may be greater media coverage of the topic resulting in an appearance of decreased personal responsibility. Or it may be the result of an increase in the avenues available for people to successfully shirk responsibility.

hagatha

I think people are afraid of personal responsibility because it means taking more control of their lives. For some, recognizing how much power and control they really have is scarey, so its easier to slough it off on someone else.

And victimhood offers its own power (much of which is attention) --which can be quite enticing.

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Thats the last time I trust the strangest people I ever met....H. Simpson

Toaster126

It's pretty simple. Life is so much sweeter when you can blame other people for your own failings and problems. Who doesn't want to live in a world where they are perfect and everyone else is flawed?

Seriously, it's not just the court system either. I think that is where a large part of racism, sexism, classism, etc. come from.

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The_Jazz

She hired the lawyer because McDonald's wasn't willing to accept responsibility for their actions. Shouldn't there be a companion statement about corporations that aren't willing to take responsibility? If you remember the "Weed Wizard" product that was marketed about 10 years ago, that was a product that was flawed from its very inception. Attaching metal blades to a plastic mount that will spin at high rpms is a recipe for disaster. Having seen that account multiple times in the late 90's, I can tell you that that particular product caused 3 deaths that I know about. Its possible that there were other death claims filed after the last time I saw it.

Personally, I don't see how "personal responsibility" fits into any of this. Either you were harmed by someone or you weren't. If you weren't and you know it, you're committing fraud. The lawyers are just doing their jobs.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

shakran

Gotta say, this is real typical. Blame the lawyers. Everyone picks on the lawyers. Lawyers are scum. . .well. . until YOU need one.


The Jazz has it right. That McD's had its coffee too hot. In fact, Jazz didn't mention this but that particular store had been warned on several occasions by health inspectors that their coffee was too hot. They'd been told to stop serving it that hot. They ignored those warnings, and refused to cool the coffee down.

Had the coffee been at the proper temperature, the woman's injuries wouldn't have been nearly as severe. So yes, this lawsuit was completely justified.

But it sure is fun to pick on the lawyers when you don't bother to learn the facts, isn't it?

sapiens

I submitted my prior post before seeing yours. I wasn't speaking to that case in particular, but thank you for the more detailed history of the case. Whether it is an individual or a corporation, people should take "responsibility" for their actions.
I agree. Whenever "fraudulent" cases arise in the media, there always seems to be an attack on lawyers. As you said, lawyers are just doing their jobs.

Generally, I don't see how suing a company that hurt you is abdicating personal responsibility. In order to file a lawsuit, you must take action, which involves personal responsibility. Even if a party involved in a suit is lying, it still involves an expression of personal responsibility. The issue seems to be more about honesty. I think that people (whether as individuals or as corporations) are no more or less honest than they have been in the past.


Being hurt and trying to gain compensation for that damage involves taking control. So does not being hurt and filing a fraudulent lawsuit.

Willravel

Who needs lawyers when you have bombs?

The_Jazz

Those of us injured by the bombs who file suit against the bomb-makers. If McDonald's ever puts a bomb in my Big Mac you better believe that I'm filing suit!

Don't blame the lawyers - they are neither the ones who caused the injury (real or imagined) or decided their only recourse was the court system.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

dirtyrascal7

Hmm... I didn't really mean for this to become a debate about what lawsuits are justified. Rereading my initial post, I realize that I didn't frame the basic idea very well. What I was hoping to discuss was society's obsession with playing the "victim" role. Whether it results in a lawsuit or not doesn't really matter, but it seems to me that more and more people are pointing the finger of blame towards someone besides themselves.

To try and steer this thread away from the lawsuit debate, here are some other examples...

-- Someone blaming their tardiness on traffic.
-- Those cases you read about where some killer blames their actions on violent video games or movies.
-- Someone blaming their unhappiness or unfortune at work on their boss.
-- Nearly every couple going through a divorce, blaming the other spouse.

I could sit here all night and think of examples, they are literally everywhere you turn... everyone, my self included, blames some exterior factor for their problems and challenges. Why? Sure, it might get you out of trouble here and there... but that only teaches us that it's okay, and it's not.

The point is, I believe the world would be a much better place if people were humble enough to accept responsibility for their situation and be proactive in working through or around these problems. We may not always be able to choose what happens to us, but we CAN always choose our reactions and responses.

__________________
"Tie yourself to your limitless potential, rather than your limiting past."

"Every man I meet is my superior in some way. In that, I learn of him."

jorgelito

Very well put, I agree.

I think a lot has to do with the wussification of society and victimhood that is so popular these days. Additionally, we coddle our teenagers etc way too much. Everyone thinks they are above the rules, that they are special exceptions. We have become unbalanced and way too much "memememememe" society.

ngdawg

Dirtyrascal7: That last statement of yours is golden.
The problem is, no one wants to admit they have shortcomings, but ironically, that misplaced pride is a shortcoming.
The most powerful words in any relationship are "I'm sorry". But it means being humbled, admitting to being wrong and it really is hard to do for many.
So, we blame the store where we tripped over our own kid(true story in the news), we blame our bosses for our distress(bosses can be bastards, but learn how to deal with them), and we blame strangers for ruining our day.
We second guess instead of acting on things, we excuse our own bad behavior on everyone but the source.
Trust me, no one ever keeled over dead after uttering "I'm sorry". But you'd think they would the way they avoid it!!
'Sorry' doesn't always mean 'regret'-it also means acknowledging a negative action.

I know this wasn't about lawyers, but....I don't blame them. I don't like trial-by-jury. Human brains, being what they are, contain emotions. Emotions can be stirred by nothing more than vision-who/what appears in front of you. And they can be stirred by just one word or action, thus clouding any objectivity one might have had otherwise.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Telluride

Let's face it: Being held responsible for our actions sucks. At best it can be a pain in the ass. At worst it can result in being sued or even thrown in prison. But taking responsibility for what you choose to do is part of being a mature adult.

I think that trying to avoid responsibility for your actions says a lot about one's character (unless your actions were coerced or the result of a mental illness or something), but it's not at all surprising to me that this happens. Who I really blame for the lack of personal responsibility in our society are all the people, politicians, activists, organizations, etc. who have allowed this to be socially acceptable and, even worse, LEGALLY acceptable in some cases.

To be fair, sometimes traffic IS to blame for tardiness. We don't have much control over the driving decisions of others.

When I lived in my old apartment it took about 20 minutes for me to drive to work, park my car and walk to my desk. With that in mind, I would try to leave for work about 25-30 minutes before I actually had to be there, to account for any possible delays. But one day there was a REALLY bad car accident a few miles ahead of me on the highway which resulted in me being stuck in a traffic jam for over an hour. Yeah, I probably would have been on time had I left for work 90 minutes early, for example. But I think most people would agree that it would be stupid to leave 90 minutes early when the drive usually only takes 20 minutes or so. Sometimes things happen that are beyond our control.

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"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

Ourcrazymodern?

...and we make our own paths through life, or so I tell the kids. I only tell them this because I believe it. Whether I or they have always taken complete responsibility for our mistakes is up in the air, because it hasn't been litigated yet, and probably never will be. -go figure!

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