The "A_J is a new dog owner & he needs help" thread

[Average_Joe]

Last week we became the owners of 2 new pups. They are male Shetland Sheepdog / mix and are ~7 weeks old. My wife and I have never owned dogs before, so we need advice from all of the experienced TFP dog owners to help us through the tough parts. I appreciate everyone's help in advance!

Q: What is the best way to train them not to bite when being handled?

Q: Currently, I take them out at 10PM to relieve themselves before going to bed. We put them in a kennell for the night. At ~3AM, they need to go out again. How long before they are able to hold it through the entire night?

I'll definitely be back with more questions!!!

[Willravel]

Q1: If you find an answer to this, let me know. My 2 year old Beagle still bites.

Q2: They should start to get used to not going during the night in a week or two. Be sure to take them out aobut 45 minutes after they eat or just after they wake up, that's when they suually ahve to go.

[Average_Joe]

Originally Posted by willravel

They should start to get used to not going during the night in a week or two.

I hope that's the case 'cause I need my sleep.

Just to elaborate on this....
Q: Because they wake up ~3AM, I have been setting my alarm for 2:45AM and getting up before they start whining and waking up the whole house. Is this a bad idea? Will they start to think that this is part of their routine? Or should I just start getting up when they begin to whine?

Q: Because they are so young, they have lots of energy and tend to wrestle/fight/play, which appears to be kind of violent (and cute). Currently, I just let them go at it because I figure it's natural instinct and also teaches them to defend themselves. Am I doing the wrong thing by letting them fight? Will they get more intense or tend to calm down over time?

[Willravel]

Q1: I would not suggest reinforcing their behavior of wetting at 3 am. Try this: Tomorrow let them out to pee at 3:30, then 4:00, then 4:30, then 5, etc. Work them into a normal schedule and you'll be back to bed in no time.

Q2: This is a tough one. Let them fight, but break it up regularly. You can't just amke them into robots, but it could escelate into dangerous fighting and you don't want that. Make yourself the alpha-male. Control the fights, make sure they stay innocent and safe.

[Elphaba]

AJ, I so glad you got a pair of pups as they will be great company for each other. I have two important suggestions for you:

- Make use of either internet or books on raising pups and dealing with problem behaviors. Get that information now so that you and/or the pups don't get headed down the wrong path.

- The two of you need to enroll yourselves and the pups in a puppy obedience class. It will be the best money you have ever spent, and you will enjoy your pups much more. The trainer in your area can tell what the ideal age is for training, but I think it is at 3-6 months. Make sure the trainer uses positive reinforcement rather than negative.

Some other thoughts:

- The "fighting" you see is actually puppy play and you don't need to worry about it. A yelp by one stops the play if it gets too carried away.

- The pups must have some chew toys because they will be teething for some time to come. Pet supply stores and web sites offer a wide variety of these and other toys. It's difficult to prevent your dog from nibbling/biting your hands. My old Rottie still likes to take my hand in his mouth, but is usually quite gentle about it. Aggressive biting is something that needs to be stopped immediately.

- Having a kennel is excellent because dogs are den animals. It is a safe and comforting place for them.

- I agree with Will in gradually extending their time in kennel for potty training until their urinary function matures. Check other resources as well. Pups do not want to pee in their den. Reduce water intake in the evening along with that last trip outside before bedtime.

I've yammered on enough. Keep the questions coming.

[shakran]

First you must realize that you were given the dogs WAY too early. The breeder should have held on to them until 12 weeks to let them finish socializing with their littermates and mother. Because of this you may face some greater challenges, especially regarding the going outside early in the morning bit.

Do not get up before they do and get them to go outside - you're right, this will become routine, and they'll never grow out of it. Let them make the noise - -the whole household wanted the dogs, the whole household needs to understand that dogs are not stuffed animals and sometimes they require things that inconvenience us.

If you've already got them going outside instead of all over the house, you're well ahead of the game. Look at it that way.

Will has a good idea as far as advancing the times you let them out, but I wouldn't be quite so aggressive as his schedule with young dogs. Remember, they're puppies. Their bladders are tiny and their bladder control is tenuous at best. They do honestly need to go out a lot more often than once every 8 hours.


As for the fighting, 99% of the time it's just play. I have a dog that sounds like he's starting world war 3 when he plays with his brother, but it's all in fun. Obviously if they're starting to latch on to throats or draw blood you need to step in but otherwise, what you think is overly violent probably isn't.

Nipping your hand is something that should NEVER be allowed. If he does it while you're playing, immediately stop, get up, and walk away. Eventually he'll learn to associate hand-nipping with attention loss, and no dog wants that. When you're playing and he bites the toy without biting your hand, praise him lavishly. Have small broken up bits of treats to give him while training - -dogs respond very well to food rewards.

I will have to disagree with Elph about reducing the water intake at night. Don't do this - it can be detrimental to the dog's health, and can cause the dog to drink way too much water when you make it freely available again. Look at it this way - Do we stop giving babies milk because we don't want to change their diaper? Dogs are just little kids with lots of fur, but the good news is they don't grow up to be teenagers

[Average_Joe]

Will, Elph, and shak.....thanks for your advice. Based on what you said, here is my plan for now.

I will let the dogs play-fight. They do not hurt each other when doing this.

I will let the dogs wake me up in the early morning to pee rather than force myself up at 3AM.

As for the biting, it doesn't bother me, but it does bother my kids (3, 6, & 8 y.o.), so I'm going to have to nip this one in the bud (pun intended). I tip I got from a friend of ours is to put a few pennies in a coffee can, and everytime they bite, shake the can to get their attention, and growl "no" or "enough" at them. If this doesn't work, I could try the attention loss technique. We realize that they need to bite and are teething, so we bough quite a few chew toys and rawhide bones. They also like to chew on a pull rope we bought.

The water routine so far is to let them drink freely all day until 8PM, then take them outside at 8PM and 10PM to pee. So far it has worked that they can hold it in the kennel until at least 3AM. They haven't peed it yet.

Q: Bathing. What is the rule of thumb for frequency, water temp., soap, and getting them not to hate it?

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Average_Joe

Q: Bathing. What is the rule of thumb for frequency, water temp., soap, and getting them not to hate it?

Bathe early in life and they are more likely to have fun with it later. Most dogs will never lke it, though, and it's probable that yours won't either. Just try to make it fun for them. Introduce tthem to the bath tub or whatever you're going to bathe them in before it has water in it. Let them sniff it, play around in it together, etc. Then, when you bathe them, have everyone around and maybe some toys. Make them feel comfortable.

For most dogs, bathing is like going to the DMV. They don't look forward to it, they want to get in and out as soon as posible, and when they're done they feel a lot bettter.

[Average_Joe]

Great advice on bathing Will! I plan to introduce bathing soon.

Q: How often should I bathe the dogs? Just when they start to smell? Can I bathe them too much and cause skin/fur problems?

Q: Currently, we are givng them Purina Puppy Chow. Is there anything better for them? Is there a big difference between the Purina and higher end food (Iams, Eukanuba, etc).

[Willravel]

Originally Posted by Average_Joe

Q: How often should I bathe the dogs? Just when they start to smell? Can I bathe them too much and cause skin/fur problems?

Get puppy shampoo, with the no tears stuff. Bathe every 2-3 weeks, but I mainly go by smell.

Originally Posted by Average_Joe

Q: Currently, we are givng them Purina Puppy Chow. Is there anything better for them? Is there a bit difference between the Purina and higher end food (Iams, Eukanuba, etc).

Purina is fine. I mix in some canned food every few weeks to keep my beagle interested in the dry stuff.

[Glory's Sun]

I tip I got from a friend of ours is to put a few pennies in a coffee can, and everytime they bite, shake the can to get their attention, and growl "no" or "enough" at them.

Be careful with this one. Do not bark commands or use commands harshly. If you do it will cause the command to become a bad term in their book. Instead, shake your penny can, and speak the command in a calm but firm voice.

As far as the food goes, I guess purina would be fine. The only brand I've trust is Eukanuba. The dogs seem to digest it better. We switched over to Purina for one bag and the dogs had a hard time keeping it down. (my dog is only 9 months). We switch back to Eukanuba and all is well with the world.

Most importantly.. let the dogs be dogs. Don't command them so much that they feel like prisoners all the time. Be the alpha male and take control but also allow them to have fun like they should. Good luck with your pups. Let's see some pics.

[shakran]

I'm not a fan of purina products. There's a lot of crap in there the dog doesn't need. I much prefer Wellness, or especially Nutro. It's more expensive, but it's much better for the dog. Eukanuba is also not bad.

I also tend to avoid Hartz Mountain products. Some of their anti-flea products have been shown to be dangerous for the dog, and the company doesn't care. Any company like that, their products aren't getting near my dog.


And yes you certainly can bathe the dog too much, giving them dry skin and making them itch all the time. You'll know when they need a bath - - probably not so much by the smell, since you get used to dog smell pretty fast, but by the feel. When the fur feels nasty and oily, time for a bath.

[Martian]

Right.

A pair of 7 week old pups are definitely a handful. Most of the advice offered already is very sound, but I'll throw my two cents in as well.

Purina dog food is fine. Personally, I think the higher end stuff is a waste of money; when I was still living at home I helped raise hundreds of dogs on Purina and haven't seen any problems caused by it yet.

As has been said, let them goof around with each other and you can play with them, but don't ever let them get away with biting you. You say you're okay with it now, but Shetlands get to be pretty big and you probably won't be okay with it in a year or two. It'll be easier to just train them not to do it now and be done with it.

Originally Posted by guccilvr

Be careful with this one. Do not bark commands or use commands harshly. If you do it will cause the command to become a bad term in their book. Instead, shake your penny can, and speak the command in a calm but firm voice.

Sorry guccilvr, but I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one. A dog doesn't understand a word's meaning. He will understand tone and body language. Those are what you use to communicate. It doesn't even matter what you say to your pups really, so long as you make it clear that you're not happy with them. As long as you're consistent about it, they'll learn to associate your displeasure with their unwanted activity and they'll stop doing it.

[shakran]

Originally Posted by Martian

Sorry guccilvr, but I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one. A dog doesn't understand a word's meaning.

Well, considering I have to spell "pizza" when I want to order one, lest I have to listen to 45 minutes of nonstop barking, I'm gonna go ahead and say dogs do indeed understand the meaning of words And no, my dog never gets pizza - -he's just excited 'cause he knows the delivery guy will be coming to see him.

[Glory's Sun]

Originally Posted by Martian

Sorry guccilvr, but I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one. A dog doesn't understand a word's meaning. He will understand tone and body language. Those are what you use to communicate. It doesn't even matter what you say to your pups really, so long as you make it clear that you're not happy with them. As long as you're consistent about it, they'll learn to associate your displeasure with their unwanted activity and they'll stop doing it.

so holdup, you called bullshit on me when I was telling someone to watch their tone and you said they understand tone? If I say everything in a harsh tone the dog won't know what to do. But if I use NO in a harsh tone and sit in a calm tone. They will understand that sit is good and No is bad.

Dogs understand meaning just fine. In fact, iirc, Dogs can understand some 300 words that a human uses. If they didn't then they wouldn't understand voice commands. I say sit and the dog sits. Oh and I don't give treats for training. I know several trainers who will agree that you shouldn't use a harsh tone when you are giving a command to a dog. That being said, everyone has their own way of training.

[Martian]

Originally Posted by guccilvr

so holdup, you called bullshit on me when I was telling someone to watch their tone and you said they understand tone? If I say everything in a harsh tone the dog won't know what to do. But if I use NO in a harsh tone and sit in a calm tone. They will understand that sit is good and No is bad.

Dogs understand meaning just fine. In fact, iirc, Dogs can understand some 300 words that a human uses. If they didn't then they wouldn't understand voice commands. I say sit and the dog sits. Oh and I don't give treats for training. I know several trainers who will agree that you shouldn't use a harsh tone when you are giving a command to a dog. That being said, everyone has their own way of training.

I'm sorry, I must've misunderstood you. I read you as saying that a harsh tone should never be used, even when correcting bad behaviour. Of course one shouldn't use a harsh tone in training, that would be very counter-productive.

I don't remember ever mentioning the use of treats. I prefer to steer away from that too, because if you train the dog with treats the dog will expect a treat every time he does what he's told. Verbal praise and attention is a much better tool.

I'll amend the language thing, since people want to be picky about it. Dogs can learn to understand certain words, since they're highly associative learners. They can learn, for example, to associate the word 'pizza' with someone coming over, or they can learn to associate a command with an action. Whether they understand the inherent meaning of the word is debatable and not really relevant. Nonetheless, a seven week old puppy is one who's probably only just learned that there are certain places that he shouldn't go to the bathroom and will not understand any words you speak to him.

The main thing to remember when training a dog is that a dog is not a person. People have a habit of anthropizing their pets, which is detrimental to the training process since it causes them to expect their pets to react in a human fashion. Therefore, when I discuss training I tend to use phrasing that discourages the practice. Your dog is not a person and you will both be happier as soon as you understand that.

[Acetylene]

Hi AJ,

For your food questions, you can check out the pet food thread on this forum to see some alternate viewpoints and then decide for yourself how you want to proceed. Personally, I do not think food is the right place to economize. You are made of what you eat, and so is your dog!

Shelties are one of the smartest breeds in the dog kingdom, and intensely eager to please. I don't know what they are mixed with (obviously that will influence their personality) but you should assume that your dogs want to please you and merely need the understanding and self-control to do so.

The mouthing is a problem for all babies, especially when they are taken home so young. The good news is, they will learn from each other something called "bite inhibition". This is a fancy word for learning that bites hurt and they should be gentle.

As far as training them not to mouth people, the best and kindest way to do it is to behave the way another puppy would behave, as they are programmed to learn this way already. If the puppy bites, yelp "OUCH" and act hurt and offended, and stop the game immediately. Go ahead and ham it up so they get the point that they hurt you and should not bite you.

This introduces intrinsic consequences as a training method, always ideal (though not always possible). Whenever you can, you want the consequences, good or bad, of your pups' actions to be logically related to those actions. Thus, biting you makes you sad and not want to play with them; playing nice makes you happy and WANT to play with them. Very simple and directly related, and therefore easier to understand than trying to connect biting with hearing a strange noise. Some people refer to this as the difference between "training" and "teaching".

As for the peeing in the night...you can take away the puppies' water at about 8 at night and that will help them sleep through the night. They won't be harmed by going a little longer without water and it will help them to gain bowel control.

[Average_Joe]

Everyone, thanks for your help! I'll give a brief update with my progress with the puupy training from your advice.

I decided to stop waking up at 3AM to let the dogs out, and believe it or not, they don't even start whining or barking until 5-5:30AM. My sleep has been restored! We are kenneling them at ~8PM, so they get no water after that, and let them out for the last time at ~10:30PM. For them to not have to go for 7 hours is amazing to me.

We are sticking with Purina for now. One thing I heard is that it might be stressful for puppies if you switch their food. I don't know if this is BS or not, but I would rather be safe than sorry.

Q: Can we give the puppies real bones? Which animal bones are OK for dogs to eat (obviously not chicken bones)?

Shelties are one of the smartest breeds in the dog kingdom, and intensely eager to please. I don't know what they are mixed with (obviously that will influence their personality) but you should assume that your dogs want to please you and merely need the understanding and self-control to do so.

We heard that they were a fairly intelligent breed, easier to train than most, and good for small children. We also heard that they tended to herd together rather than become individuals. For this reason, we are trying to work with them individually as much as possible. Oh, and the previous owners don't know who the father was.

[Martian]

At 7 weeks, your pups are probably still teething. I actually consider it to be more or less essential to give them something to chew on at this stage in their growth. It doesn't have to be a bone per se; there are plenty of different toys and such that suit the purpose admirably. We have several toys that we use for the purpose, including plastic rings, squeak toys and even a length of thick, sturdy rope (knotted at both ends to minimize fraying). All of those are available at a pet store along with other products like rawhide bones. Pay careful attention to what you buy, as you don't want to give the pups something that they can choke on. Whatever it is, has to be strong enough to withstand a pup's constant gnawing without fragmenting into pieces that can get stuck in your pup's throat.

While on the subject, I feel obliged to let you know that you should resist the urge to play tug of war with your pups. They may try to, but if they do always let go. Tugging like that can encourage aggressive behaviour and it can also damage their new teeth, which may not be properly set at the moment.

It sounds like you've got the night training well in hand. As to the food thing, some dogs will get a bit finicky if you change foods. If you really want to switch their food, the easiest way to do it is to start by mixing the new stuff in with the Purina, then gradually reduce the amount of Purina you're using into they're eating just the new food. That way they get used to the taste without being hit with it all at once. It's your choice, but I wasn't exaggerating above. I don't know the exact number of litters that my step-dad has had, as I lost count a long time ago. I do know that there have been well over a hundred pups in the last decade and a half or so that he's been breeding. I don't recall a single one ever having any sort of issues with Purina chow.

[Acetylene]

Martian is right about the tugging becoming a dominance struggle, but for shelties, that shouldn't be a problem--as long as you WIN, you can actually assert your own dominance over them using the game. Most shelties I know atually need to be encouraged to play tug, since they are so submissive.

He's also right about tugging being hard on their teeth at times, fi they are really aggressive and using a rubber or hard toy, but tugging with a soft toy like a rag or piece of rope shoould be OK if you don't yank on it, and might even help set their teeth more strongly into the bone (which is part of why they have an urge for tugging and chewing--to strengthen their jawbones and roots).

[Average_Joe]

Martian & Acetylene,

Thanks for the quick replies. It sounds as though I am on the same page as both of you. I bought a tug rope for the pups the first day, and they like to play tug-of-war with me (I make sure I win, alpha-dog style) and chew on it. So far, I have not been able to get a tug-of-war going between them, which I think would be hilarious to see.

The bone question was asked because my in-laws wanted to get them a bone each from the butcher. Perhaps I'll suggest they hold off. The pups have chew toys and rawhide bones to gnaw on for now.

I'll try the method of mixing the 2 brands of dog food until they are weened off of the Purina. The pet food thread was helpful, but I feel I still need to do more research and contemplation to find the best food plan. I need a good balance between the pups health and my wallet.

I'm out of good questions for now, but I'll be back soon.

[Acetylene]

Oh, the bone issue, I see. Cooked bones tedn to splinter and make sharp bits, especially chicken bones but also any toher kind. The bones you buy from the pet store have been hardened by a very long baking process to help prevent this.

Your babies should not have any problems with breaking beef bones as they are not strong enough; however, bones you buy from the butcher have VERY sharp (knife-sharp sometimes) edges where the butcher sawed through it. They can easily cut their tender gums and the pups might not even notice, as dogs get kind of zen-spacey while they chew.

Proponents of raw bones say that raw bones are safe, but I have spoken to many vets that have operated on dogs with raw bone splinters in their stomachs who say otherwise. The truth is, in nature, the hair of the animal consumed wraps around the bone splinters in their stomach and emerges like a pellet, protecting the intestines. So unless you also feed your dogs a ton of hair, I wouldn't advise feeding them raw or cooked bones.

There was one time, though, when I found some weird, huge bone with a big area of easily-acessed marrow in the center. Dogs prefer the marrow so I gave it to my dog and let her scoop the marrow and soft bone out of the middle, after cooking the bone to kill germs, and then took the bone away once the marrow was gone and she began to chew the hard bone. You might try this if you find a similar marrow bone at your butcher's.

Otherwise I give her knuckle bones from the pet store with meat on them. They last her for weeks and they do not splinter and aren't as sharp. Granted, they are not much use nutritionally after being cooked for 9 hours; they are more of an enrichment activity than a nutritional supplement.

Here is what I do to balance food and wallet: you can try feeding a medium-price kibble with meat as the first ingredient and without ground corn or cornmeal (which is indigestable, although corn flour some say is ok and corn starch is fine) and supplementing it with very rare meat, chicken giblets, and nutritious vegetables like tomatoes, winter squash, or canteloupe. The rare meat is for amino acids that are denatured in the extreme cooking and dessication involved in kibble making, and the vegetables are for antioxidants that are also lost during cooking and storage. The giblets are to provide a more natural nutritional profile, since predators would not normally restrict themselves to muscle meats. I also save the juice that comes out while cooking the meat and drizzle it on the kibble, but this is mainly to make kibble more appetizing--a dog who gets steak every day doesn't always want to eat kibble. And I make the treats count--instead of milk-bones, give dried liver, boiled egg or other nutritionally advantageous goodies.