Jinn

WHERE do you draw a line at which mental or physical illness excuses behavior?

This is much like my depression thread, but I'm trying to approach it neutrally from the area from which I consider my disagreement to stem from.

The base case:
I begin by saying that I consider someone of able mind, not under the influence of drugs or alcohol, and not suffering from any illness - to be responsible for any and all actions they take. As such, I expect them to acknowledge their actions, deal with any potential ramifications, and more importantly, acknowledge that they caused the situation with their actions.

If you disagree with this sentiment, please tell me why.

As we approach things like drug overdose, severe mental distress, or situations of coercion (gun to your head), I may be willing to remove the "blame" for the ramifications of a person's action from them. In the case of a gun to your head, you are responsible, but not entirely responsible. You were acting out of a mature interest to stay alive, and therefore are excused from complete responsibility for your actions.

Again, if you disagree with this sentiment, please tell me why.

However, I am unwilling to accept that mental disorders such as bipolar disorder, depression disorder, eating disorders, certain types of schizophrenia, poor parenting "disorder", or "I'm poor disorder" as valid excuses. I do not think they remove partial or even complete responsibility for an individual actions.

A hypothetical example: A person cuts their wrists. A notable pyschologist or friend excuses their behavior in way of comment: "He didn't know what he's doing - he's not doing it on purpose. He's depressed."

While some might accept this as valid reason to remove responsibility, I fail to see how the depression altered his mental state to a point where he was physically unable to prevent it. In this case, he is entirely responsible for his actions and should not be excused out of a potentially fatal action.

I recognize that many people would differ on this last poiny, so I'd like to hear:

"WHY do you draw your line there? What credible information makes you believe that depression causes such a failure in judgement?"

If you draw the line elsewhere, please explain WHERE and WHY.

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Willravel

Mental illness explains behavior, it doesn't excuse it.

ratbastid

That's the crux of it, right there. You can't see how a psychological condition usually predicated on chemical imbalance could alter someone's mental state to the point that they would do something they wouldn't ordinarily do. I'm guessing that's probably because you've never experienced it.

The fact is, clinical depression and other psychological disorders DO cause erratic behavior and actions that the sufferer would never contemplate were it not for the disorder. I don't know how to say it any plainer. They DO. Whether or not you can understand why they do or what that's like doesn't change that fact. I've never experienced it personally, but I've seen it happen in others.

Pip

I generally cut ill people a lot of slack, because I feel better about being cranky and annoying when I'm ill myself then. However, I won't excuse stupidity on a major scale because of illness. Say someone bought something shiny they couldn't possibly afford because they had a cold and needed cheering up. And if you're unable to fulfil obligations because of illness, then you should do all you can to fix a replacement or minimise the damage.

How about concussion or shock? I know I've done some pretty stupid things while freshly concussed. Like going skiing. Or leading a board meeting just minutes after having a pile of metal junk dropped on my head. Worst board meeting ever. There was a full-blown mutiny that I didn't even notice until days later when the original chair called me and demanded to know what the hell I'd been up to. I could've acted differently, but at the time I was only able to hold on to one thought at a time, and the thought that stuck was "lead the board meeting", not "lie down in a corner and whimper" which had been the better choice.

So, is headtrauma a valid excuse for stupidity? I had perfect control over my actions, but I wasn't able to evaluate all my options properly. I've never been severely depressed or so, but I think it's similar in a way. You have less options "accessible", so you don't always make the rational choice because you simply can't think of it.

Ch'i

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Gilda

Knowing that someone has a psychological disorder helps us to understand why they behave as they do and should be one factor used in judging their actions. The "why" matters nearly as much as the "what".

Gilda

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ratbastid

Jinn: are responsibility and blame the same thing?

Jinn

What do you consider "mental illnesses" worthwhile for consideration when explaining behavior? And why those?


That's not the question. I asked where you draw the line -- what pyschological "disorders" to you consider judgement-altering? Is not getting enough sleep a good "factor" to consider when judging their actions? Having drank caffiene? And why do you draw the line where you do?

I'm not really sure.. why?

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Gilda

Those aren't psychological disorders.

I don't draw lines ahead of time based on vague general categories. The degree to which a psychological disorder is a factor in a certain behavior is going to be determined by the specific circumstances involved.

Gilda

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Willravel

Crack open your DSM IV and start reading. There are logical diagnoses to be made based off behavior. If someone shows increased energy, activity, restlesness; extreeme irritability; distractability; little or no sleep; poor judgment; spending sprees, etc, they might just have bipolar disorder. It's a very tough thing to have, and it's a bitch to get over. What causes this behavior is basically unknown. Most people with bipolar disorder have some control over themselves. The idea of blaming must under all circumstances be a case by case study. I cannot make a blanket statement like, "People with OCD can't help themselves, they are all forced to do what they do". Likewise, I can't say, "People with OCD should be blamed for each and every action they take as if they didn't have OCD."

Bipolar disorder can lead to suicidal thoughts and even suicidal episodes,going back to the example you give above. If someone with bipolar disorder were to cut his or her wrists, the only way to determine if he or she was responsible and of sound mind is to do very serious and in depth psychological testing.

Of course, blame is very subjective. You can blame your car because you're late to work. You can blame God because something bad has happened to you. You can even blame Willravel if this thread dies.

The only certianty in my mind is:
The excusing of behavior is a much different consideration than causation.

NoSoup

I actually take this a bit further. First of all, I don't see any (with exception of very extreme cases) reduction in responsibility due to mental illness.

More importantly, though, I do believe that people are responsible for their actions and potential consequences if they are under the influence of drugs and or alchohol if it was ingested for any reason other than medical, and even then, sometimes, too.

For instance, if someone takes a ton of vicodin and know how it affects them, but choose to drive anyway and cause on accident - something along those lines.




After giving it some more thought, as long as the person makes a choice, I believe that they are responsible for their actions, as well as the consequences, be it to take drugs, assault someone, or write on a wall. I do understand that under some circumstances mental illness or other factors (someone holding a gun to your head) may greatly influence your decision, but generally that's how I feel...

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jorgelito

It is inexcusable that people with illneses take it upon themselves to come into work, school, public spaces anyways and proceed to cough, sneeze and infect the rest of us causing us to be sick. I definitely put the blame and responsibility in those sick people. Then I become sick. So is it myself who is to blame for getting sick or is it the fault of the inconsiderate person who decided to not stay at home and get better and come out and infect the rest of us? In that case, ilness should NEVER be an excuse but it would be dependent upon who is actually responsible. If I call in sick, whose fault it it? Mine for getting sick or the person who got me sick? If I got sick at work then whose fault is it? I tend to blame the people with illnesses as I feel it is usually preventable.

Willravel

Nevermind......

Lady Sage

I guess we just dont understand unless we have been there.

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analog

You'd have to go through the official list of psychological disorders (the previously mentioned DSM IV) and decide for yourself which ones you think are worthy of being excused. All function, on some level, by the chemical (im)balances in the brain. I guess you'll have to decide what level of imbalance you're willing to excuse.

For me, it's any situation where a chemical imbalance in a person's brain causes the behavior we observe. This, of course, does not include anything taken into the body which (in any way) produces this effect, like drugs or alcohol.

highthief

Guy, if you don't understand that schizophrenia and bipolar disorders are serious mental illnesses that will cause people to do things they might not otherwise do, and that they have no control over this, I can't see where there is even basis for discussion. As others have politely pointed out, you need to educate yourself about these illnesses.

Now, when we talk about "disorders" caused by regular societal pressures and everyday life, that's another issue. I don't thik being raised in a broken home, for example, is any sort of excuse for becoming a bankrobber.

But these are completely different things.

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