If you are depressed, you are a failure. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Jinn · 06-02-2006, 09:18 AM

Depressed people are failures. I apologize for the harsh wording of the thread title, but I feel that is the essence of what follows.

I spent almost an hour writing and rewriting this post for brevity.
PLEASE take the time to read it ALL.

I'll start by elaborating some statements that I think everyone can agree on:

1) Everyone has problems in their life; problems where emotional response is necessary.
2) Emotions can be both positive and negative, dependant on the emotion and the situation.
3) Emotions will effect our well-being (in negative and positive ways, see 2).

If you disagree with me on these basic ideas, it is unlikely that you'll agree with what follows. I'd ask, however, that you post repsonding with why you believe 1, 2, or 3 to be untrue.

If you accept (1) and (3), then you likely accept (4)

4) There are times where emotion must not be allowed to interfere with our well-being.

Again, if you disagree with this statement, please respond with your reason for disagreement. Otherwise, I'm going to assume you made it this far without disagreeing with me.

Necessary also are a few caveats:

5) No one is perfect.
6) Everyone will fail to enforce *4* at some point in their life.
7) Everyone has bad days.
8) There are cases of pure chemical depression.

It is with these eight points that I hold a strong conviction:

If you are depressed, you are a failure.

Nothing like kicking a guy while he's down, eh, JinnKai?

I've attempted to reword this statement to be more amiable, but I don't believe I can.

I established (1) and (7) for very important reasons. Everyone has bad days, and everyone has times where being violently emotional is necessary. These are given, and I accept them. However, there are also times when emotion becomes detrimental to our well-being (4). Given the choice to become violently angry at an employer assigning a menial task, most people will chose to subdue their emotion, acknowledging that it is more important to keep their job than chose to be emotional.

{WARNING} I'M ABOUT TO GIVE MY OPINION, AND IT MAY OFFEND. {WARNING}

With understanding that there are legitimate (8)'s out there, most people are not. Anecdotally and experimentally, I can say with a high degree of confidence that most "depressed" people have not been diagnosed as chemically depressed. Those that have been diagnosed as such can accept that the mental techniques described herein may not be applicable.

For the rest of you losers out there, it does.

I've been called arrogant and I've been called condescending, but I've never been called a crybaby. To me, the latter would be far more insulting. Every time I hear someone say that they were unable to complete an assignment because they were "sad," I cringe.

Being "sad" or being "depressed" is an excuse, just like being "drunk." Being drunk, being sad, or being depressed does not mean that you can ignore your responsibilities. I think at some level or another, most people will agree with this.

Unfortunately, there are also people who will accept an excuse like "I was depressed" as a valid reason for failure. I, however, interpret it differently. This means that the person chose to let "depression", "sadness" or "drunkenness" control them. They chose to let an emotion get in the way of something that they knew needed to be done. If you made a mental decision that it was more important to be emotional, please.. say that. Say "I decided that it was more important to me to cry than to get my work done." That's what you're really saying when you say that you're "depressed." Allowing yourself to be "depressed" is convenient, because it lets you ignore the true reason for your failure.

I have the same problem with people who use their parents as a similar excuse. "I'm a failure because my parents were mean to me as a kid." Do you see the link between this and depression? You're letting someone else prevent you from being successful. By making it their fault, you avoid the responsibility of finding the true root of the problem. The true root, in this situation, is being unwiling to become an individual. If you let another person control your success, then you are still dependent on them. In this case, you're being depedent on parents that you've already identified as being "bad."

The list can go on, but if you find yourself blaming your problems on an external source like parents, money, or depression, perhaps you should reconsider the true source of the emotion.

I understand that many of you may feel that your situation is unique, or that I cannot understand your position.

This is a very common defense mechanism -- but I think you'd be hard pressed to say that YOUR situation is that unique. There are hundreds of thousands of people your age who had "bad" parents and who were "depressed" at some point in their life.

I can tell you from personal experience that I was "depressed," and the only thing that got me out of it was knowing that I was the person responsible for my emotions and my actions, and I chose to stop using excuses. I looked into the emotions themselves and determined the true reason; it wasn't that I was "depressed." It was that I thought I was unattractive, I thought no one liked me, and I thought that I would never succeed in life. I've addressed each one of thsoe individually, and it's taken me much further than wallowing in my "depression" ever would have.

I've addressed similar issues in many of my posts, and I continue to do so in hopes that someday, someone out there will read this. And maybe they'll step outside their depression, their self-loathing, their shyness, their hatred for their parents, their anger, their alcoholism, their gambling habit; whatever their mental affliction is. And they'll realize that they CAN control it, if they identify the true source and stop excusing the behavior. I don't know if that'll happen, but I can always try.

maleficent · 06-02-2006, 09:32 AM

Question:
What does it matter to you, if someone else is depressed or not... Why is it any of your business at all? How does someone else's feelings affect you?

Until you've walked a mile or more in someone else's shoes... You absolutely cannot understand anyone's position. You think you might know what's best, but that's on your perception, it's extremely arrogant to think you can dismiss someone else's emptional state without first understanding the individual.

fresnelly · 06-02-2006, 09:40 AM

Quote:

If you are depressed, you are a failure.

This statement is too broad and overly fatalistic. You make depression sound like a death sentence. I understand your association between depression and weakness, but weakness and failure are not the same thing.

abaya · 06-02-2006, 09:41 AM

I'll follow up on Mal's question: why are you so bent on making these declarative threads? I am not sure what good it serves anyone other than yourself, to be honest.

If I were you, I'd ask myself why I feel so compelled to make these all-encompassing statements, since many of us seem to see something about you, in your posts, that you don't intend to portray.

The old cliche applies: I don't care what you have to say, unless I know that you care. And frankly, from your threads that start out with posts of this tone, I'm pretty sure you don't care.

Unless you start showing some empathy and/or advanced degrees in psychology, I have zero confidence in your ability to say anything of value about depression.

Redlemon · 06-02-2006, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

4) There are times where emotion must not be allowed to interfere with our well-being.

Again, if you disagree with this statement, please respond with your reason for disagreement.

I think this is the step where your argument runs into trouble. I have been fortunate and not had to deal with depression. However, the word "must" implies to me that you believe that one can always have control over their emotions. I believe that you are an exception in this case.

Quote:

I can tell you from personal experience that I was "depressed," and the only thing that got me out of it was knowing that I was the person responsible for my emotions and my actions, and I chose to stop using excuses. I looked into the emotions themselves and determined the true reason; it wasn't that I was "depressed." It was that I thought I was unattractive, I thought no one liked me, and I thought that I would never succeed in life.

You acknowledge in this statement that you were not depressed. How can you use that to state that others are not truly depressed?

Jimellow · 06-02-2006, 09:45 AM

Quote:

4) There are times where emotion must not be allowed to interfere with our well-being.

It sounds good to "not allow" emotions to interefere with one's well-being, but emotions define people. People are not rocks, and emotions are a huge part of being a living, breathing, individual. To cut them off like we are robots is not realistic to me.

I am an extremely positive person, am rarely, if ever, depressed, but I don't think the cure to depression is trying to squelch emotion, but instead partake in practices that re-direct negative vibes/emotions into positive feelings and experiences.

I cannot relate to being depressed, because I make life decisions every day that result in my life being as enjoyable and positive as it can be. This lack of experience regarding depression also makes my opinion invalid, as I can't relate to it at all.

That being said, I've had numerous friends that have been depressed at various points in their life, and the experiences that have led to them improving had nothing to do with shutting off emotion, and everything with seeking out positive experiences and influences on their lives so that they could change positively.

madp · 06-02-2006, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I've been called arrogant

The problem with being arrogant is that it kills an individual's ability to gain self-awareness that he/she holds deeply ignorant opinions, it fills one with such self-importance that he/she feels compelled to share the ignorance with other innocent bystanders, and it pretty much quashes any motivation that the individual might have to do the work necessary to form an opinion based on readily available and verifiable information rather than half-assed notions. This is, of course, imho

ratbastid · 06-02-2006, 09:57 AM

It's funny, I agree with almost everything you said, EXCEPT that depression equals failure. That's where your logic doesn't actually follow.

If you're depressed, one possibility is that you're coddling yourself about something. Or that you're using it as an excuse for failing at something or to do something.

I'm deeply disquieted by absolutes like "you are a failure". I've failed at things. I fail plenty. But the minute I AM a failure, that becomes my next excuse for future failures.

I believe that ALL people are whole, complete, and perfect, AND that each of us has barriers to the expression and experience of that wholeness, completeness, and perfection. I'd much rather go to work on those barriers (my own and others') than brand people as "failures" because of the particular barrier they've constructed for themselves.

maleficent · 06-02-2006, 09:58 AM

I'm wondering if you've ever been accused of being a control freak...

Quote:

1. Do you feel uncomfortable about acknowledging that someone else's opinion or way of doing something may be better than your own?
2. Being so wise, do you believe you know what is best for other people, your friends and family?
3. Do you like to share your wisdom often - offering advice whether it's asked for or not?
4. Do you worry that something is going to go wrong unless you keep an eye on it and have some control over events?
5. Do you feel threatened by other people's opposing opinions or attitudes?
6. Do you have an obsession about checking and re-checking the work you do, and the work others do?
7. Do you have to do everything yourself, because nobody else can do it as well as you... only you know how to do it properly?
8. What partners do you choose? Do you feel stressed or out of control in your relationships where give and take is required?
9. Have you lost previous partners because you want everything your way?
10. Is Bossy your middle name?

YOUR SCORE:
Mostly Yeses: You're probably a really nice person, and if everyone else understood that your need to control stemmed from your insecurities and fears, they'd cut you a little slack, yes? The problem is, with understanding or not, other people are going to become alienated unless you learn to "control" yourself! Stop trying to take over... practice being more flexible

based on some of your thread style - -i'd say you qualify as mainly yesses...

Quote:

Keep in mind that control freaks are not trying to hurt you – they’re trying to protect themselves. Remind yourself that their behavior toward you isn’t personal; the compulsion was there before they met you, and it will be their forever unless they get help. Understand that they are skilled manipulators, artful and intimidating, rehearsed debaters and excellent at distorting reality.

Take a deep breath Jinn... Relax...

Cynthetiq · 06-02-2006, 10:33 AM

Again you are trying to assert your control over things you cannot control, your emotions and feelings are just something that exists. You however feel that you can control them and the behaviors of others vis a vie declartive threads denoucing someone's being and right to feel and be the way that they are.

Failure is a subjective term as is success. What is success for you isn't the same as for someone else.

There's something simple that I've learned early on the path that I am now on:
If you spot it, you got it.

LINK

Quote:

Do you constantly seek approval and affirmation?
Do you fail to recognize your accomplishments?
Do you fear criticism?
Do you overextend yourself?
Have you had problems with your own compulsive behavior?
Do you have a need for perfection?
Are you uneasy when your life is going smoothly, continually anticipating problems?
Do you feel more alive in the midst of a crisis?
Do you still feel responsible for others, as you did for the problem drinker in your life?
Do you care for others easily, yet find it difficult to care for yourself?
Do you isolate yourself from other people?
Do you respond with fear to authority figures and angry people?
Do you feel that individuals and society in general are taking advantage of you?
Do you have trouble with intimate relationships?
Do you confuse pity with love, as you did with the problem drinker?
Do you attract and/or seek people who tend to be compulsive and/or abusive?
Do you cling to relationships because you are afraid of being alone?
Do you often mistrust your own feelings and the feelings expressed by others?
Do you find it difficult to identify and express your emotions?
Do you think someone's drinking may have affected you?

Based on the above Ala-non criteria above I bolded in yellow based on your previous threads and the declaration you've stated that your father is an alcoholic, I'd say you need to talk to someone within the Alanon organization.

Hat · 06-02-2006, 10:49 AM

The strict codes of conduct on this forum, maintained by our friendly neighbourhood moderators, which keep discussion tolerant and civil, are generally speaking quite admirable and greatly appreciated. However, there are a few rare exceptions in which some threads perhaps deserve a vitriolic, hate filled rant, without the inevitable moderation that would ensue. I feel this is one of those threads.

Bossnass · 06-02-2006, 11:03 AM

Despite the generalization, despite the inflamatory title, I think that JinnKai presented his argument in a clear and logical manner.

I agree with Fresnelly response.

I'm terribly dissapointed with most of the responses here. I conceed that I haven't noticed any 'controling' trends in previous threads by the OP. I also fail to see the controlling intent in this one. The original post specifically asked for reponses based on the logic of his arguement, so I'm going off on a tangent by responding to the other responses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

...I've addressed similar issues in many of my posts, and I continue to do so in hopes that someday, someone out there will read this. And maybe they'll step outside their depression, their self-loathing, their shyness, their hatred for their parents, their anger, their alcoholism, their gambling habit; whatever their mental affliction is. And they'll realize that they CAN control it, if they identify the true source and stop excusing the behavior. I don't know if that'll happen, but I can always try.

A technique and a logical approach that very well could work to help people deal with depression. Presented in, from my perspective, with altruistic reasons. With clear disclaimers about potentially offending people.

I hate to make unjustified claims because I don't know the backgrounds of the respondants, but from my first reading; I percieved the responses that attack/address the originl poster instead of the original post as the knee-jerk reactions of offended people who have been or are "depressed".

powerclown · 06-02-2006, 11:04 AM

It sounds like you are using this thread as a sounding board for your own mental state. I also have to chime in on the "why are you concerned why others are depressed" sentiment. If you yourself are depressed, seek help. It's out there. John D. Rockefeller, Bill Gates Jr. and Warren Buffet, as well as many, many, many of the worlds pre-eminent scientists, world leaders, sports heroes, artists, fashion designers, chefs, engineers, economists, musicians, and military leaders all have histories of some sort of depression, temporary or long-term. It is simply historically untrue to say that depression = failure.

Everyone has emotions that they struggle with from time to time. This goes for every single solitary individual who has ever walked - or will ever walk -this planet, no matter how high and mighty, or down and out. It's nothing to be ashamed about. Best of luck.

vanblah · 06-02-2006, 11:40 AM

I think that MOST people would agree that antidepressants are over-prescribed. I do believe that depression is on the rise (this is something for another thread though) ... and it's certainly true that there are people who need these drugs because even mild depression can be devastating.

I do agree with you on several points, for instance, depression as an excuse to get out of something is also certainly rampant. I'm guilty of it myself ... as recently as this week I allowed myself to get "down" so that I wouldn't "have" to work on the house for a couple of days.

It was a way for me to offset the guilt I felt for not working on the house. If I was depressed I had an excuse. In reality, I could just as easily said, "Screw it, I'm not swinging a hammer today," but because I have a problems with guilt I CHOSE to use the depression scapegoat.

Of course, I wasn't really depressed because what we are calling depression in this thread is NOT really depression. Depression is a debilitating mental state. "Doldrums"; frustration; fatigue; anger; boredom; feeling overwhelmed etc. are what we're really talking about and I'd say most people who call themselves depressed are really just suffering from these things.

Unfortunately, we've moved along to a point where people aren't taught the skills to cope with the doldrums or whatever. We just go to the Dr. and after a 15-minute evaluation we're put on an SSRI. The word depression has been bandied about for so long and it's been thrown into our faces and etched its way into the American mindset that we just use it to mean anything that deviates from our normal mood.

So to say that depression=failure is unfair at best. Depression is not something that most people can just "snap" out of. Depression, REAL DEPRESSION, will and does interfere with normal life in such a way that a person will fail at almost any task including the task of "not being depressed." I hope to never have to deal with that.

Only the person going through the problem really knows what they are feeling anyway. What might be a slight feeling of sadness to you or me might be the equivalent of debilitating depression to someone else.

Jinn · 06-02-2006, 11:46 AM

Mal:

Quote:

What does it matter to you, if someone else is depressed or not... Why is it any of your business at all? How does someone else's feelings affect you?

The connotation of the word 'depression' demonstrates it's undesirablity - no one here could defend depression as a good thing.

Depressive illnesses interfere with normal functioning and cause pain and suffering not only to those who have a disorder, but also to those who care about them.

Quote:

Until you've walked a mile or more in someone else's shoes... You absolutely cannot understand anyone's position. You think you might know what's best, but that's on your perception, it's extremely arrogant to think you can dismiss someone else's emptional state without first understanding the individual.

It's certainly my perception, and I'd never claim otherwise. That's a function of being seperate entities, but it is mutually exclusive from my ability to understand a state of mind and its pathology. Since you've dismissed my position without first understanding me, I think your statement is quite ironic. You seem to claim that if someone had been cheated on, I could not offer them solutions without first being cheated on. That is certainly one way to understand someone's emotional state, but it is not the only way.

Since you've posed a question to me, I'll pose one to you:

If you had personal experience with a situation, had a solution to the problem which could be (and has been) universalized successfully, would you abstain from sharing your solution? How strongly would you have to feel about it before you offered your solution to strangers? Would you ever?

maleficent · 06-02-2006, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

If you had personal experience with a situation, had a solution to the problem which could be (and has been) universalized successfully, would you abstain from sharing your solution? How strongly would you have to feel about it before you offered your solution to strangers? Would you ever?

To a stranger? No way. I wouldn't offer it because it's none of my business... Unless someone is asking me for my opinion on something, or presents their situation in such a way that they are looking for feedback, it's not my place to say anything. For a stranger or for even someone I knew...

Unsolicited advice is rarely welcome. If I wanted someone's opinion, I'd ask for it - until that time comes... It's best to keep it to one's self.

Besides, my solution might be good for me... No guarentee it's going to work for someone else...

Jinn · 06-02-2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

To a stranger? No way. I wouldn't offer it because it's none of my business... Unless someone is asking me for my opinion on something, or presents their situation in such a way that they are looking for feedback, it's not my place to say anything. For a stranger or for even someone I knew...

What if they were so depressed that they wouldn't ever ask for help? They'd never hear it? What if they were reading a web forum? How would you know that they wanted your opinion?

If I changed the topic to If I were depressed, I'd be a failure, I'd likely have much friendlier responses. Likewise, it would not be as effective at making others analyze themselves, rather than me.

maleficent · 06-02-2006, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

What if they were so depressed that they wouldn't ever ask for help? They'd never hear it? What if they were reading a web forum? How would you know that they wanted your opinion?

I wouldn't and it's not my problem at that point... I cannot control what other people think or what other people do. If I spent all my time thinking about that, then i probably wouldn't get out of bed in the morning. All a person can do is be concerned with their own environment and act on that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

If I changed the topic to If I were depressed, I'd be a failure, I'd likely have much friendlier responses. Likewise, it would not be as effective at making others analyze themselves, rather than me.

You would be told emphatically that you weren't a failure and ou would be encouraged to see professional help, and as other self pitying style threads have in the past, the thread would probably be closed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Likewise, it would not be as effective at making others analyze themselves, rather than me.

Why is it your business to make others analyze themselves? Who appointed you to this role? All JinnKai can do is worry about JinnKai, other people who have no regular contact wiht him are not his concern.

analog · 06-02-2006, 12:15 PM

I'm glad you got over your depression and don't actively consider yourself a failure. The ability to self-actualize (develop or achieve one's potential) is quite a feat, especially if you're going about it alone, and starting out in a less than perfect state of mind (negative thinking, depression).

I will, however, bring to task a few of your points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

4) There are times where emotion must not be allowed to interfere with our well-being.

That is absolutely correct. Your problem, however, is in turning a rather simple expression into an absolute. Through your words and examples, you assert that ANY time when emotion interferes with well-being is unacceptable. What you leave unaccounted for is that many of the human emotions, specifically some of the "sad" ones, exist to cushion us in times of stress. A prime example is grieving for a loss. Without the emotional reactions that come during these times, a person's brain is burdened tremendously with the weight of the unresolved emotions. There are large bodies of study into people such as hospital workers, emergency medical providers, or military personnel who are trained to "shut off" their emotional responses to the pain, suffering, loss, and death of others. People in these areas, who are specifically "shutting off" their negative emotional reactions so as not to harm their well-being, still go through their own personal emotional healing. Some cry later that day at home, some meditate, other find creative outlets to express their feelings of sadness or shock.

The point of the matter is- those who don't deal with their negative emotions at some point, suffer greatly from the mental burden they leave themselves. They let the harshness of the reality of their job get to them, rather than allowing the natural and necessary process of dealing with them take place. After a while, those who deal with their negative emotional stressors effectively are much less bothered by the same sorts of emotional stressors that others experience, because they're used to dealing with it in a healthy way.

Quote:

With understanding that there are legitimate (8)'s out there, most people are not. Anecdotally and experimentally, I can say with a high degree of confidence that most "depressed" people have not been diagnosed as chemically depressed. Those that have been diagnosed as such can accept that the mental techniques described herein may not be applicable.

For pretty much most people, depression is a chemical issue. You may be referring to cases where the cause is *purely* chemical, but that still dismisses a very large majority for whom the chemical make-up of their brain is still the root of their ongoing depression. That is why there are so many anti-depression drugs (that, and the pharmaceutical companies like large, steady paychecks). There may be alcohol or drug abuse that helps to fuel it, or it may be real mental trauma such as the death of a loved one, or an unstable/broken family life.

The emotional responses we go through are almost completely controlled by a chemical in the brain called serotonin (this is not serotonin's only job, though). To put it plainly, anti-depression drugs work by blocking the brain's ability to reabsorb the higher levels of serotonin it produces, thereby limiting the emotional responses- your brain chemistry changes so that you no longer have those intense feelings of depression.

Being unable to mentally "will" the chemistry of your brain to change so that your depression goes away hardly makes a person a loser.

Quote:

And maybe they'll step outside their depression, their self-loathing, their shyness, their hatred for their parents, their anger, their alcoholism, their gambling habit; whatever their mental affliction is. And they'll realize that they CAN control it, if they identify the true source and stop excusing the behavior. I don't know if that'll happen, but I can always try.

If you're trying to bring people out of depression, the "buck up, camper" approach does not work, which is essentially what you're trying to do here.

If your noble goal is to help those afflicted with persistent depression, you need to understand that a negative approach does not work in this case. There are times when the "tough love" system can inspire people to achieve, can drive people to succeed... but not for depression.

Here's the most important bit:

It may have worked for you, so congratulations... but in the process, it seems to have made you feel so worthwhile that you put down those who haven't had your relatively unique success. Indeed, this is like if the world's strongest man lifted 1,000 pounds over his head, put it down, and then started to actively belittle everyone on the planet who couldn't do the same, and called them all pussies and wimps. Most people need help from a couselor of some kind, perhaps some therapy, or even chemical interventions to have a better or normal quality of life.

You may also look into why you're projecting failure on everyone who suffers from the same depression you used to have. Is it possible- just think about it for a little minute- that you're inwardly, secretly fearful that everyone considered you a failure when you were depressed? That your bigger fear is that they still do? Perhaps you've "healed" yourself from your depression, but have yet to shake that feeling of failure that once captivated you? Feeling ashamed of your past, especially a past you feel you've not only overcome, but gloriously triumphed over, is quite normal, but only healthy in small doses. It should only carry so far as to motivate you, never to make you feel bad, or use the stored anger, disappointment, and loathing for yourself to project onto others.

Mull it around a bit and get back to me.

Bossnass · 06-02-2006, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Why is it your business to make others analyze themselves? Who appointed you to this role? All JinnKai can do is worry about JinnKai, other people who have no regular contact wiht him are not his concern.

TFP - The Evolution of Humanity, Sexuality, and Philosophy

ratbastid · 06-02-2006, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Depressive illnesses interfere with normal functioning and cause pain and suffering not only to those who have a disorder, but also to those who care about them.

Bingo. Who are you mad at, Jinn?

Jinn · 06-02-2006, 12:18 PM

Quote:

All JinnKai can do is worry about JinnKai, other people who have no regular contact wiht him are not his concern.

I cannot do that.

And neither can good firemen, police officers, doctors, nurses, or anyone who wants to love, teach, or protect.

If you notice my board title, you might see a connection.

analog · 06-02-2006, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Bingo. Who are you mad at, Jinn?

Jinn, did your father used to call you a loser for showing emotion? Like being upset with him (sad) for drinking?

Cynthetiq · 06-02-2006, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I cannot do that.

And neither can good firemen, police officers, doctors, nurses, or anyone who wants to love, teach, or protect.

If you notice my board title, you might see a connection.

but the difference is that firemen, police officers, doctors, nurses, ALL have to undergo rigourous training and schooling. They learn intimate knowledge over years and by exposure to many many cases.

In my opinion your lofty, arrogant, holier than thou, I'm better than attitude doesn't stand up to real experience, schooling, and training. While you and I may want to armchair quarterback what we think someone should do, it's based on guess more than anything since we are not qualified to make such statement of facts.

Just because you wish it doesn't mean that it is so.

Cynthetiq · 06-02-2006, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Likewise, it would not be as effective at making others analyze themselves, rather than me.

I've posed some very succint behaviors that you exhibit based on your stating your father was an alcoholic and that you show behavioral traits that all families and friends of alcoholics show.

If I state that Children of Alcholic Parents are losers in the same manner that you stated your depression dissertation, does that make you more inclined or less inclined to self examine yourself? Or does the presentation put you into a defensive position instead of introspective?

maleficent · 06-02-2006, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossnass

TFP - The Evolution of Humanity, Sexuality, and Philosophy

TFP is about evolution of humanity, blah blah blah... it's not about one person telling someone else, when not asked for, what's they should be doing. In my mind, it's about evolution of one's self... and change in one's self, not trying to force change down the throat of someone else.

People should analyze themselves because they want to, it's not up to someone else to do it for them.

maleficent · 06-02-2006, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Likewise, it would not be as effective at making others analyze themselves, rather than me.

I'm gonna go back to that quote...

Anyone who's been keeping up with Cynthetiq's journal of late, knows that statement is totally untrue..Cyn's journal is all about his self analysis, and it's painful to read sometimes, but it's extraordinarily educational because a lot of what he's going thru on his journey, I can see in myself... I know I'm not the only one who feels that way as well.. His self analysis is way more effective and more interesting and more educational that having someone's ideas of what they think someone else should be doing pushed upon them... self honesty counts more than you will ever realize.

Jinn · 06-02-2006, 12:58 PM

Quote:

If I state that Children of Alcholic Parents are losers in the same manner that you stated your depression dissertation, does that make you more inclined or less inclined to self examine yourself? Or does the presentation put you into a defensive position instead of introspective?

During my last thread, I recieved a lot of feedback (PMs and otherwise) that my threads often derailed because I went back and addressed personal attacks rather than continuing with the purpose of the thread.

While I recognize and appreciate your desire to discover where the ideas I possess COME FROM, it has an undesirable effect on threads in which it occurs. Hopefully I will be able to respond to this while simultaneously supporting the idea that those who perpetuate a depressive state are in fact, failures.

NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT

In response to your question, IF I associated myself with that group I would ACTUALLY be much more likely to analyze myself if you called me a "loser" that if you had not. I personally respond better to negative reinforcement than positive reinforcement, as do many people. In the case of positive reinforcement, people recieve support and therapy in the form of consoling -- "You can get over this, you're strong.." or "it's not so bad." This has absolutely no effect on me, and makes me just as unresponsive as you claim to be to this thread. Negative reinforcement, on the other hand, works well (for me).

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Negative Reinforcement strengthens a behavior because a negative condition is stopped or avoided as a consequence of the behavior.

A rat is placed in a cage and immediately receives a mild electrical shock on its feet. The shock is a negative condition for the rat. The rat presses a bar and the shock stops. The rat receives another shock, presses the bar again, and again the shock stops. The rat's behavior of pressing the bar is strengthened by the consequence of the stopping of the shock.

The "suck it up, bucko" effect works for those strengthened by negative reinforcement. In their case, they were ignoring the negative consquence on their health and well-being until someone pointed it out. In this case, I called them a failure. It worked for me, it worked for my girlfriend. It worked for my roommate. It's worked for quite a few people - those strengthened by demonstrations of the flaws, rather than false praise. Someone telling me that "You will get through it" does nothing for me, whereas something like "Can you really handle this task?" does. Both are accepted methods of conditioning.

vanblah · 06-02-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I cannot do that.

And neither can good firemen, police officers, doctors, nurses, or anyone who wants to love, teach, or protect.

If you notice my board title, you might see a connection.

The other difference between what these people do and what your essay posted above is about is the negativity. What teacher, doctor, "anyone who wants to love, teach or protect" calls their students <b>failures</b>(I'll leave off firefighters and police officers)?

Name-calling and belittling a person is possibly the WORST thing you can do for them. To teach someone something you have to first earn their respect ... EARN. You don't do that by calling them a failure.

If I knew you a little better I might be persuaded to think that you have a touch of megalomania ... http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/index.html ... but I don't know you that well (or at all for that matter). I only have your many, many posts on TFP to base that judgement. But there it is.

Cynthetiq · 06-02-2006, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

During my last thread, I recieved a lot of feedback (PMs and otherwise) that my threads often derailed because I went back and addressed personal attacks rather than continuing with the purpose of the thread.

While I recognize and appreciate your desire to discover where the ideas I possess COME FROM, it has an undesirable effect on threads in which it occurs. Hopefully I will be able to respond to this while simultaneously supporting the idea that those who perpetuate a depressive state are in fact, failures.

NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT

In response to your question, IF I associated myself with that group I would ACTUALLY be much more likely to analyze myself if you called me a "loser" that if you had not. I personally respond better to negative reinforcement than positive reinforcement, as do many people. In the case of positive reinforcement, people recieve support and therapy in the form of consoling -- "You can get over this, you're strong.." or "it's not so bad." This has absolutely no effect on me, and makes me just as unresponsive as you claim to be to this thread. Negative reinforcement, on the other hand, works well (for me).

The "suck it up, bucko" effect works for those strengthened by negative reinforcement. In their case, they were ignoring the negative consquence on their health and well-being until someone pointed it out. In this case, I called them a failure. It worked for me, it worked for my girlfriend. It worked for my roommate. It's worked for quite a few people - those strengthened by demonstrations of the flaws, rather than false praise. Someone telling me that "You will get through it" does nothing for me, whereas something like "Can you really handle this task?" does. Both are accepted methods of conditioning.

So you're stating that masochistic depressed people are those that you are targeting with your inflammatory titles? Those that would not be enticed by "Depressed and why?" or "Depression stop using it as a scapegoat."

The idea that you can catch more ants with sugar than with vinegar seems to apply here.

JustJess · 06-02-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

The "suck it up, bucko" effect works for those strengthened by negative reinforcement. In their case, they were ignoring the negative consquence on their health and well-being until someone pointed it out. In this case, I called them a failure. It worked for me, it worked for my girlfriend. It worked for my roommate. It's worked for quite a few people - those strengthened by demonstrations of the flaws, rather than false praise. Someone telling me that "You will get through it" does nothing for me, whereas something like "Can you really handle this task?" does. Both are *SNIP* methods of conditioning.

No, actually, you're confusing a few concepts and oversimplifying here.

1. "Suck it up, bucko" works for those who just need a little reality check. I doubt that would work on anyone with actual, serious depression. If I'm depressed, and you tell me to suck it up, I'm liable to punch you.

2. "Can you really handle this task?" isn't negative reinforcement. It's reverse psychology. And if said to a honestly depressed person, it will probably send them deeper into a depression.

3. No, saying "can you really handle this task?" isn't an ACCEPTED method of conditioning. I doubt anyone but you would recommend it.

Based on your OP and subsequent statements, I have to say that I doubt you've ever dealt with a real depressed person. You, your girlfriend, and your roommate were probably having bad days, or were in a funk. Mind you, I'm not them and cannot presume to know how they feel, but if they're saying "oh, you're right, I'm being an idiot to be depressed, all better!" I can't think it was that serious to begin with.

There's a distinct difference between melodrama queens and people who are having a bad week and people who are actually depressed clinically. You don't just get over clinical depression. You CAN get over being a melodrama queen (at least I hope so).

The_Jazz · 06-02-2006, 01:44 PM

JinnKai, I've read and reread your post and I'm still stuck wonder why I should care what you think of depression. Sure, your manifesto is interesting, but I don't see where it as any real world application unless you're aggitating for a curtailing of compassion.

Personally, I think that #8 of your mantra is a far more common occurrence than you are giving credit for, but that's me. I also don't see how you can equate depression and failure. I am, by most definitions, financially successful in an industry where success and failure happen at astonishing speeds. Yesterday, I lost one of my largest accounts that accounted for roughly $100,000 in revenue, and I suppose that I spent most of yesterday fitting your definition of depressed, albeit for a very good reason. Does that mean that I am now a failure because I lost that one account. Well, the $50,000 new business revenue account that I booked an hour ago would argue differently even though the first account still sticks in my craw for a number of reasons, and I could still be considered depressed because of it. I've done nothing today (other than answer the phone to take orders) but bitch to my assistants about that lost account. So, am I now a failure even though I'm still up 15% over last year even with losing the big fish?

I'm sure you'll have a very different answer than I do.

abaya · 06-02-2006, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I cannot do that.

And neither can good firemen, police officers, doctors, nurses, or anyone who wants to love, teach, or protect.

If you notice my board title, you might see a connection.

You know, Jinn, firemen, police officers, doctors, and nurses want to love, teach, and protect. But they did not simply up and decide one day, "Well, I want to love, teach, and protect everyone, so let's do it!" then jump on board a vehicle with a siren and ask everyone, "Hey guys, mind if I join the team?"

Nope. They had the desire, and then they humbled themselves to LEARN from those who knew more than they did. That means they spent a *great* deal of time in schooling or training of some kind, put thousands of hours of experience under their belt, got a *professional certification,* and then were accepted by society in the role of loving, teaching, and protecting.

They did not simply walk on stage and demand that everyone accept them as being valid lovers, teachers, and protectors. Which is essentially what I see your "board title" as being. It's self-appointed. Who asked you?

You also have not addressed my statement that if you had exhibited some regular degree of empathy with these purported "needy" people that you want to help (e.g. post on some frickin' journals that you understand what people are going through instead of whacking them with a 2-by-4 in a major thread topic, maybe), or if you had professional degrees/certification AND experience outside of yourself, your girlfriend, and your roommate, maybe some of us would take you more seriously.

Quote:

What you do speaks so loudly that I cannot hear what you say.

snowy · 06-02-2006, 02:05 PM

Dividing the world into black and white when it is really full of shades of gray does us no good at all, especially when people are not black and white but shades of gray themselves. We are far too complicated as beings to be polarized in this manner, and the same applies to the disorder which you are attempting to address.

Oversimplification of a vastly complicated problem is dangerous.

Jinn · 06-02-2006, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Dividing the world into black and white when it is really full of shades of gray does us no good at all, especially when people are not black and white but shades of gray themselves. We are far too complicated as beings to be polarized in this manner, and the same applies to the disorder which you are attempting to address.

Oversimplification of a vastly complicated problem is dangerous.

Since so many object to "failure," how do you define "success" ? Is being in a depressive state "success"? If you say success is 100% and failure is 0%, where does depression fall? I fail to see how anyone who is depressed can be said to be succeeding in the slightest bit. The only way I can see something less than 0% is by acknowledging they are depressed and working to avoid remaining a failure.

Jinn · 06-02-2006, 02:14 PM

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So, am I now a failure even though I'm still up 15% over last year even with losing the big fish?

You're failure ONLY if you let depression prevent you from FURTHER succeeding, or you use "depression" as an excuse for being a failure, like the OP clearly stated.

Gatorade Frost · 06-02-2006, 02:14 PM

Depression isn't failure or success. That's like saying Oxygen - Fruit or Vegetable?

It's a state of mind that isn't related to success or failure. There are very successful people who suffer from depression and very unsuccessful people who suffer from depression. The same can be said for unsuccessful people who are happy and vice versa.

abaya · 06-02-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I fail to see how anyone who is depressed can be said to be succeeding in the slightest bit.

Well, that's your "failure" then, isn't it... better try another point of view that might give you more success in empathizing with others.

snowy · 06-02-2006, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatorade Frost

Depression isn't failure or success. That's like saying Oxygen - Fruit or Vegetable?

It's a state of mind that isn't related to success or failure. There are very successful people who suffer from depression and very unsuccessful people who suffer from depression. The same can be said for unsuccessful people who are happy and vice versa.

Precisely. I was incredibly successful in my college career. I made honor roll several times while suffering from depression.

Failure? I think not.

Halx · 06-02-2006, 02:27 PM

The problem with this argument is simple - it enforces a standard. As much as people all try to be the same, society thrives on the dispersion of mentalities. Simply put; we need everyone - even those who are prone to depression. Try riding on a lopsided tire... doesn't work.

06-02-2006, 09:18 AM	#1 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	If you are depressed, you are a failure. Depressed people are failures. I apologize for the harsh wording of the thread title, but I feel that is the essence of what follows. I spent almost an hour writing and rewriting this post for brevity. PLEASE take the time to read it ALL. I'll start by elaborating some statements that I think everyone can agree on: 1) Everyone has problems in their life; problems where emotional response is necessary. 2) Emotions can be both positive and negative, dependant on the emotion and the situation. 3) Emotions will effect our well-being (in negative and positive ways, see 2). If you disagree with me on these basic ideas, it is unlikely that you'll agree with what follows. I'd ask, however, that you post repsonding with why you believe 1, 2, or 3 to be untrue. If you accept (1) and (3), then you likely accept (4) 4) There are times where emotion must not be allowed to interfere with our well-being. Again, if you disagree with this statement, please respond with your reason for disagreement. Otherwise, I'm going to assume you made it this far without disagreeing with me. Necessary also are a few caveats: 5) No one is perfect. 6) Everyone will fail to enforce 4 at some point in their life. 7) Everyone has bad days. 8) There are cases of pure chemical depression. It is with these eight points that I hold a strong conviction: If you are depressed, you are a failure. Nothing like kicking a guy while he's down, eh, JinnKai? I've attempted to reword this statement to be more amiable, but I don't believe I can. I established (1) and (7) for very important reasons. Everyone has bad days, and everyone has times where being violently emotional is necessary. These are given, and I accept them. However, there are also times when emotion becomes detrimental to our well-being (4). Given the choice to become violently angry at an employer assigning a menial task, most people will chose to subdue their emotion, acknowledging that it is more important to keep their job than chose to be emotional. {WARNING} I'M ABOUT TO GIVE MY OPINION, AND IT MAY OFFEND. {WARNING} With understanding that there are legitimate (8)'s out there, most people are not. Anecdotally and experimentally, I can say with a high degree of confidence that most "depressed" people have not been diagnosed as chemically depressed. Those that have been diagnosed as such can accept that the mental techniques described herein may not be applicable. For the rest of you losers out there, it does. I've been called arrogant and I've been called condescending, but I've never been called a crybaby. To me, the latter would be far more insulting. Every time I hear someone say that they were unable to complete an assignment because they were "sad," I cringe. Being "sad" or being "depressed" is an excuse, just like being "drunk." Being drunk, being sad, or being depressed does not mean that you can ignore your responsibilities. I think at some level or another, most people will agree with this. Unfortunately, there are also people who will accept an excuse like "I was depressed" as a valid reason for failure. I, however, interpret it differently. This means that the person chose to let "depression", "sadness" or "drunkenness" control them. They chose to let an emotion get in the way of something that they knew needed to be done. If you made a mental decision that it was more important to be emotional, please.. say that. Say "I decided that it was more important to me to cry than to get my work done." That's what you're really saying when you say that you're "depressed." Allowing yourself to be "depressed" is convenient, because it lets you ignore the true reason for your failure. I have the same problem with people who use their parents as a similar excuse. "I'm a failure because my parents were mean to me as a kid." Do you see the link between this and depression? You're letting someone else prevent you from being successful. By making it their fault, you avoid the responsibility of finding the true root of the problem. The true root, in this situation, is being unwiling to become an individual. If you let another person control your success, then you are still dependent on them. In this case, you're being depedent on parents that you've already identified as being "bad." The list can go on, but if you find yourself blaming your problems on an external source like parents, money, or depression, perhaps you should reconsider the true source of the emotion. I understand that many of you may feel that your situation is unique, or that I cannot understand your position. This is a very common defense mechanism -- but I think you'd be hard pressed to say that YOUR situation is that unique. There are hundreds of thousands of people your age who had "bad" parents and who were "depressed" at some point in their life. I can tell you from personal experience that I was "depressed," and the only thing that got me out of it was knowing that I was the person responsible for my emotions and my actions, and I chose to stop using excuses. I looked into the emotions themselves and determined the true reason; it wasn't that I was "depressed." It was that I thought I was unattractive, I thought no one liked me, and I thought that I would never succeed in life. I've addressed each one of thsoe individually, and it's taken me much further than wallowing in my "depression" ever would have. I've addressed similar issues in many of my posts, and I continue to do so in hopes that someday, someone out there will read this. And maybe they'll step outside their depression, their self-loathing, their shyness, their hatred for their parents, their anger, their alcoholism, their gambling habit; whatever their mental affliction is. And they'll realize that they CAN control it, if they identify the true source and stop excusing the behavior. I don't know if that'll happen, but I can always try. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

06-02-2006, 09:32 AM	#2 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Question: What does it matter to you, if someone else is depressed or not... Why is it any of your business at all? How does someone else's feelings affect you? Until you've walked a mile or more in someone else's shoes... You absolutely cannot understand anyone's position. You think you might know what's best, but that's on your perception, it's extremely arrogant to think you can dismiss someone else's emptional state without first understanding the individual. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

06-02-2006, 09:41 AM	#4 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	I'll follow up on Mal's question: why are you so bent on making these declarative threads? I am not sure what good it serves anyone other than yourself, to be honest. If I were you, I'd ask myself why I feel so compelled to make these all-encompassing statements, since many of us seem to see something about you, in your posts, that you don't intend to portray. The old cliche applies: I don't care what you have to say, unless I know that you care. And frankly, from your threads that start out with posts of this tone, I'm pretty sure you don't care. Unless you start showing some empathy and/or advanced degrees in psychology, I have zero confidence in your ability to say anything of value about depression. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

06-02-2006, 01:44 PM	#32 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	JinnKai, I've read and reread your post and I'm still stuck wonder why I should care what you think of depression. Sure, your manifesto is interesting, but I don't see where it as any real world application unless you're aggitating for a curtailing of compassion. Personally, I think that #8 of your mantra is a far more common occurrence than you are giving credit for, but that's me. I also don't see how you can equate depression and failure. I am, by most definitions, financially successful in an industry where success and failure happen at astonishing speeds. Yesterday, I lost one of my largest accounts that accounted for roughly $100,000 in revenue, and I suppose that I spent most of yesterday fitting your definition of depressed, albeit for a very good reason. Does that mean that I am now a failure because I lost that one account. Well, the $50,000 new business revenue account that I booked an hour ago would argue differently even though the first account still sticks in my craw for a number of reasons, and I could still be considered depressed because of it. I've done nothing today (other than answer the phone to take orders) but bitch to my assistants about that lost account. So, am I now a failure even though I'm still up 15% over last year even with losing the big fish? I'm sure you'll have a very different answer than I do. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-02-2006, 02:05 PM	#34 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	Dividing the world into black and white when it is really full of shades of gray does us no good at all, especially when people are not black and white but shades of gray themselves. We are far too complicated as beings to be polarized in this manner, and the same applies to the disorder which you are attempting to address. Oversimplification of a vastly complicated problem is dangerous. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

06-02-2006, 09:57 AM	#8 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	It's funny, I agree with almost everything you said, EXCEPT that depression equals failure. That's where your logic doesn't actually follow. If you're depressed, one possibility is that you're coddling yourself about something. Or that you're using it as an excuse for failing at something or to do something. I'm deeply disquieted by absolutes like "you are a failure". I've failed at things. I fail plenty. But the minute I AM a failure, that becomes my next excuse for future failures. I believe that ALL people are whole, complete, and perfect, AND that each of us has barriers to the expression and experience of that wholeness, completeness, and perfection. I'd much rather go to work on those barriers (my own and others') than brand people as "failures" because of the particular barrier they've constructed for themselves.

06-02-2006, 10:49 AM	#11 (permalink)
Hat Tilted Location: Adelaide, Australia	The strict codes of conduct on this forum, maintained by our friendly neighbourhood moderators, which keep discussion tolerant and civil, are generally speaking quite admirable and greatly appreciated. However, there are a few rare exceptions in which some threads perhaps deserve a vitriolic, hate filled rant, without the inevitable moderation that would ensue. I feel this is one of those threads.

06-02-2006, 11:04 AM	#13 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	It sounds like you are using this thread as a sounding board for your own mental state. I also have to chime in on the "why are you concerned why others are depressed" sentiment. If you yourself are depressed, seek help. It's out there. John D. Rockefeller, Bill Gates Jr. and Warren Buffet, as well as many, many, many of the worlds pre-eminent scientists, world leaders, sports heroes, artists, fashion designers, chefs, engineers, economists, musicians, and military leaders all have histories of some sort of depression, temporary or long-term. It is simply historically untrue to say that depression = failure. Everyone has emotions that they struggle with from time to time. This goes for every single solitary individual who has ever walked - or will ever walk -this planet, no matter how high and mighty, or down and out. It's nothing to be ashamed about. Best of luck.

06-02-2006, 11:40 AM	#14 (permalink)
vanblah Junkie	I think that MOST people would agree that antidepressants are over-prescribed. I do believe that depression is on the rise (this is something for another thread though) ... and it's certainly true that there are people who need these drugs because even mild depression can be devastating. I do agree with you on several points, for instance, depression as an excuse to get out of something is also certainly rampant. I'm guilty of it myself ... as recently as this week I allowed myself to get "down" so that I wouldn't "have" to work on the house for a couple of days. It was a way for me to offset the guilt I felt for not working on the house. If I was depressed I had an excuse. In reality, I could just as easily said, "Screw it, I'm not swinging a hammer today," but because I have a problems with guilt I CHOSE to use the depression scapegoat. Of course, I wasn't really depressed because what we are calling depression in this thread is NOT really depression. Depression is a debilitating mental state. "Doldrums"; frustration; fatigue; anger; boredom; feeling overwhelmed etc. are what we're really talking about and I'd say most people who call themselves depressed are really just suffering from these things. Unfortunately, we've moved along to a point where people aren't taught the skills to cope with the doldrums or whatever. We just go to the Dr. and after a 15-minute evaluation we're put on an SSRI. The word depression has been bandied about for so long and it's been thrown into our faces and etched its way into the American mindset that we just use it to mean anything that deviates from our normal mood. So to say that depression=failure is unfair at best. Depression is not something that most people can just "snap" out of. Depression, REAL DEPRESSION, will and does interfere with normal life in such a way that a person will fail at almost any task including the task of "not being depressed." I hope to never have to deal with that. Only the person going through the problem really knows what they are feeling anyway. What might be a slight feeling of sadness to you or me might be the equivalent of debilitating depression to someone else.

06-02-2006, 02:14 PM	#37 (permalink)
Gatorade Frost Rookie	Depression isn't failure or success. That's like saying Oxygen - Fruit or Vegetable? It's a state of mind that isn't related to success or failure. There are very successful people who suffer from depression and very unsuccessful people who suffer from depression. The same can be said for unsuccessful people who are happy and vice versa. __________________ I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips

06-02-2006, 02:27 PM	#40 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	The problem with this argument is simple - it enforces a standard. As much as people all try to be the same, society thrives on the dispersion of mentalities. Simply put; we need everyone - even those who are prone to depression. Try riding on a lopsided tire... doesn't work. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]