Upcoming methods of air/space travel - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ObieX · 03-09-2005, 06:47 AM

A previous thread (http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...87#post1702487) got me to wandering around the web looking at different/new/unconventional forms of space travel that are not that far into the distant future. I, for one, get a stiffy when i think about this type of stuff, and would like to share some of this information with you guys and see what your thoughts are on some of these ideas.

Solar Sails:
I put this one first because there will be a launch of the very first real solar sail coming up VERY soon (within a month or two). It is a Russian project and the craft is named Cosmos 1.

http://www.planetary.org/solarsail/

This is a theory about to become fact. They really don't have any idea at all how this will work, the thing could fall apart or fly like a kite.

Quote:

Cosmos 1 has 8 triangular sails, each 15 meters (50 feet) in length, configured around the spacecraft's body at the center. The sails will be deployed by inflatable tubes once the spacecraft is in orbit.

The spacecraft will be launched from a submerged Russian submarine in the Barents Sea. It will be carried into orbit on board a Volna rocket - a converted ICBM left over from the old Soviet arsenal.

Cosmos 1 will orbit the Earth at an altitude of over 800 kilometers. It will gradually raise its orbit by solar sailing -- the pressure of light particles from the Sun upon its luminous sails.

Laser Propelled Craft:

The government has been experimenting with this technology for some time in secret (supposedly) and now private companies are starting to pick it up. This technology is still very much in it's infancy, but already vry small craft are being shot up into the sky under laser power.

Lightcraft Technology Inc Is one of these companies http://www.lightcrafttechnologies.com/ (there's also been some work out of japan)

The web site linked above has video of some of LTI's record flights. Granted it's only a few hundred feet, and the craft are only a few inches, but you gotta start somewhere, and i gotta admit it looks pretty cool.

Quote:

A lightcraft in action. The bright light you see is the air combusting under the rim of the craft.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/light-propulsion.htm

Space Elevators :

Now you all may think this one is super-far off but it may not be as far off as many people believe. Due to recent events such as the latest space shuttle tragedy, and the growing ease of carbon nanotube production this dream may become reality almost certainly within our lifetime, if not within the next 20 years. Various space agencies such as NASA have begun serious consideration into the subject and the ball is starting to roll on ideas of how to accomplish this realistically and soon.

http://www.space.com/businesstechnol...or_040629.html

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast07sep_1.htm

http://www.wired.com/news/technology...,57536,00.html

Magnetic Field Disrupter:
This one may also seem a bit far-fetched, but the technology is proven, if not implemented yet (as far as we know) on a large scale craft. This one was touched on by the original TFP post that gave me the idea to make this one (link on top of post). Supposedly the US government already has a HUGE craft (possibly more) that utilizes the technology to make itself super-light.

The basic idea around the concept is that with the generation of a large/powerful enough electromagnetic bubble you could, in effect, cancel out th earth's gravitational pull on an object inside that bubble (atleast partially). You would reduce the mass/weight of an object 90%, thus reducing the need for vast amounts of energy neded for things like thrust and lift. Also such a super-light low-mass vehicle would be able to maneuver much easier as the gravitational forces acting on it would be much smaller. It would be able to stop faster/easier and shift direction faster/easier.

http://seekers.100megs6.com//UFOManTR-3B.htm

http://www.mufonla.com/tr3b.htm

The technological ability is real, wether or not you want to believe that the US has built/uses such a craft is up to you. With all the stories of reverse-engineered alien technology and such it can be a little hard to swallow for some. This basic technology does not nessesarily have to have been dreamed up by a little grey guy with big eyes though, its really not all that hard to grasp the concept, and you dont have to put all that much thought into it. Even if we DID get this stuff from aliens (yea yea..) we probably would have thought of it ourselves eventually.

Ion Engines :

Ion engines are already in use, and their use is expanding.

http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/SMART-1/SEMLB6XO4HD_0.html

Quote:

Operating in the near vacuum of space, ion engines shoot out a propellant gas much faster than the jet of a chemical rocket. They deliver about ten times as much thrust per kilo of propellant used. The ions that give the engines their name are charged atoms, accelerated by a choice of electric guns. If the power comes from the spacecraft's solar panels, the technique is called 'solar-electric propulsion'.

Ion engines work their magic in a leisurely way. As solar panels of a normal size supply only a few kilowatts of power, a solar-powered ion engine cannot compete with the whoosh of a chemical rocket. But a typical chemical rocket burns for only a few minutes. An ion engine can go on pushing gently for months or even years - for as long as the Sun shines and the small supply of propellant lasts.

In 1998, NASA launched a demonstration spacecraft called Deep Space 1, which flew by a near-Earth asteroid and went on to intercept a comet. ESA's SMART-1, with much less chemical boost, will go no farther than the Moon. But it will demonstrate more subtle operations of the kind needed in distant missions. These will combine solar-electric propulsion with manoeuvres using the gravity of planets and moons.

I'll touch on a few more later on (this is taking a while to type LOL).
Next i'll go into things like Star Trek's Warp Drive.

ENGAGE!!!!1!!

ScottKuma · 03-09-2005, 07:21 AM

Very interesting stuff!

Although I don't see how these real (or coming-to-be-real) technologies can compare with the fictional Warp Drive of Star Trek.

Unless you're going to argue that Warp Drive is something other than fiction.

Hain · 03-09-2005, 08:11 PM

The best conceivable ideas for space travel would be the ion drives, light sails and the "laser top." My favorite ground to orbit device is that Space Elevator. Pop Sci had an article on them and that was fucking cool. If you really like these things, get a free subscription to SpaceDaily.com.

My personal favorite for space travel is the Bussurd Ramjet. Basically, it is a giant magnetic collector that sucks in available solar particles and generates small nuclear blasts at the core of this field for propulsion. A fun but another inefficient system is the antimatter rocket.

NASA is planning another system of X-Prizes to allow private companies to build the radical systems of space travel. Pop Sci released an issue about it. The new one is to create a reusable lander for on the moon. So guess what you need--a reusable craft to get to the moon really fast.

EDIT: Oh yes, I wouldn't mind a warp drive system either... but physics just doesn't seem to allow the warp drive. Now if you want to really get somewhere in style! use a wormhole. Nothing yet to destroy the idea of a macroscopic wormhole existing and capable of allowing matter in this universe to pass through unscathed. Of course... where that wormhole will take you and when it will take you--even if you will remain in the same universe, or even in a universe with our physics--is still :cough cough: questionable. ;-)

ObieX · 03-09-2005, 11:07 PM

Bussard Ramjet (aka Interstellar Ramjet) :

Since you brought it up I'll start with this on this next section.

The Bussard Ramjet/Interstellar Ramjet would probably be one of the larger craft. Not quite as vast as a space elevator, but easily within size range of an MFD craft or Solar Sail craft. The biggest part of this ship would consist of a large Ramjet collector. Think of it as a giant funnel flying through space scooping up matter (namely hydrogen). What Bussard suggested was a type of projected magnetic scoop, that would extend far out ahead of the craft and push oncoming particles in like a funnel. This type of craft could also use a physical scoop to accomplish the same goal. Both of these comes with it's own problems. The magnetic scoop would need to be powered, and would probably use quite a bit of energy. The physical scoop could suffer damage of coul be destroyed completely by space debris. Each of these could be a problem for this type of craft, and where this type of craft would be used (interstellar space) this would be a huge problem since any rescue would pretty much be impossible. (tho an escape craft or altrnate thrust method would most likely be provided on such a craft) Anyway, this craft would collect hydrogen particles floating around between the stars to propell the ship by means of some type of fusion reaction.

Warp Drive (theoretical)

Well this one is a bit touchy, so i will have to come back to it at some point again, no one web page that i have found so far (i cant find the one i saw way back when just yet) can explain exactly what is going on, but here's a basic explaination that i picked up.

What warp drive is (atleast my basic understanding w/o finding what i've been looking for) is that since nothing in space-time can go faster than light, if you were to remove the ship from that space-time and place it in its OWN small bubble of space-time, you could then move that bubble of space-time around inside the larger space-time faster than light. You would fold space-time around you (using large amounts of energy) then force that bubble either by shape of the bubble (by pinching one end and oozing your way throught eh fabric of space-time) or by shifting different energy levels of areas of the bubble (maybe projcting mor energy toward the front or back o the bubble, pushing the bubble forward in real space-time). When you are traveling at warp speed your ship isnt really moving at all (though it could be, however that movement would be insignifigant in comparison to the super speeds of warp speed that they wouldnt add anything really to your speed. For expample what use would traveling at 1000mph be when you're rocketing forward at 5x the speedof light already)), you're sitting in a bubble of your own space, and that bubble is what is moving. You would tear your way though the fabric of spacetime, (hopefully) sealing it behind you.

It would be like an ant sitting in an air bubble at the bottom of a pool, then that air bubble disconnecting from the bottom of the pool and rocketing up toward the surface.

When i find more info i'll try and slap it up here, but here's lots of ways to look at warp drive. This is just one explaination (and a rather crappy one)

Will we be able to do something like this in the future? Maybe, but with the seemingly insane amount of energy needed to fold space-time, it would be pretty tough. So far the only thing that may even come close to this type of idea in any way whatsoever would be the MFD.

I'm pretty tired now trying to explain that (and i haven't slept in like 20 hours), so I'm gonna take another break LOL. Later I'd like to get more into fusion and fission propulsion. I'll also touch on other things that are not-so-up-coming like wormholes, and other stuff like Tachyons. This is where my understandings start to break down, so explaining what i know/will find out will be pretty fucking tough... ... but then again i have nothing else to do.

Radio Monk33 · 03-10-2005, 12:02 AM

Very cool thread, thanks for posting all this info. I never would of found it on my own.

I am curious as to how you get these giant crafts to resist the impacts of various space debris, particularly the solar sail one..

shakran · 03-10-2005, 04:19 AM

just out of curiosity. . .What is this doing in Paranoia?

Hain · 03-10-2005, 07:17 AM

Very true, what is this doing in Paranoia? And the problem with a warp drive and creating a bend that you travel along is that to do this you'd have to use gravity, and gravity waves extend out from a source at the speed of light. You're gravity bubble can't extend outwards from itself faster than the space outside would permit. So the real issue here is that you'd have to wait the time it would take light to reach that destination before you could actually make it there.

This doesn't go to show that it can't be done, just that it would be not economic to have giant gravity benders that are constantly stretching space-time like rubber bands. Also, to converge these beams of gravity you'd need large, highly dense rings of sorts spaced evenly from one point to another (so you don't suddenly collapse the universe around you). I kind of like that idea better than warp drive simply because it is plausible and would make some kick-ass hard-scifi stories.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radio Monk33

I am curious as to how you get these giant crafts to resist the impacts of various space debris, particularly the solar sail one..

Well... you'd need large magnetic deflectors and electric inductors. That is why I like the ramjet, even though it is the quasimodo of space travel, because in order to prevent instellar oopsies you'd already need something to move the stuff in your way outta your way.
Q: Why not fuse a ramjet and a photon sail into one? They both need large arrays to work, so just have some sails strapped to the back side of the ramjet collector. It might even give some class to it.

Also I have seen a different style of light craft, where the large sail was parabolic and not panelled. To accelerate it there would be a large array of lenses in Earth orbit to focus sun light to propel it. ObieX, have you seen this one?

ObieX · 03-10-2005, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

just out of curiosity. . .What is this doing in Paranoia?

I figured since discussion would eventually veer off into the theoretical, and possibly even discussions of aliens and government conspiracis here would be the best place. If mods still feel knowledge is the best place for this (have gotten a couple PM's from some folks) then feel free to move it, its fine with me

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augi

Also I have seen a different style of light craft, where the large sail was parabolic and not panelled. To accelerate it there would be a large array of lenses in Earth orbit to focus sun light to propel it. ObieX, have you seen this one?

I've seen a few designs so far, but not that kind of setup (focusing of solar light with lenses from earth) however i have seen similar ones, like one where a beam from a satelite is fired toward earth, then intensified on earth, returned to the satelite, and then dedirected toward the solar sail craft. The collection of solar light would probably be pretty efficient energy-wise compaired to the current methods because lasers take a ton of energy. Then again different forms of light/energy produce different effects so its hard for me to say. A setup like that may require huge orbital platforms and lenses. Something orbital would be used since night time would suck for the beam, and the lenses would have to be in the most efficient position to get the best use of the sun's light. Maybe having the lenses float in orbit around the sun, but trailing behind or ahead of the earth.

Annihilation Engine (aka Matter-Antimatter Engine) :

One idea for a matter-antimatter engine (from Time Life Voyage Through the Universe "Spacefarers"..description of a diagram): In a matter-antimatter engine, a frozen crystal of antihydrogen is levitated within an electromagntic field. Ultraviolet light knocks free a stream of antiprotons, and the magnetic coils guide the antiparticles toward the nozzle. When the beam meets a stream of regular hydrogen, the two annihilate eachother, creating energetic subatomic particles and gamma rays. The particles rush out the nozzle at 94% light-speed, flinging the craft in the opposite direction and eventually accelerating it close to the speed of light.

Since this type of ship would spew out so much gamma radiation the crew quarters would have to be pretty far fomt he engine, and would require a butt-load of shielding. Also creating hydrogen crystals was a problem currently iirc, let alone antimatter hydrogen crystals.

Here's a link to some information that is too technical for me if anyoneis interested: http://www.stw.tu-ilmenau.de/~gm/maars.html

Also here's a couple diagrams, though they're not in english and, oddly, they seem to have holes in them lol.

Nuclear Pulse Propulsion

This type of engine uses "small" pulsed nuclear explosions to create a plasma for thrust. The problem with this is that it is currectly not legal to test/use nukes of really any kind in space. A couple projects are listed and explained here: http://www.all-science-fair-projects...lse_propulsion

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Project Orion

The first serious attempt to design a nuclear pulse rocket was Project Orion, carried out at General Atomics in the late 1950s and early 1960s. Orion used large bombs, which was all that we knew how to build at the time, to react against a large plate attached to the spacecraft with shock absorbing systems. Careful explosive design maximized the momentum transfer, which led to specific impulses in the range of 2,000 seconds (about four times that of the SSME) to a theoretical maximum of 100,000. Thrusts were in the millions of tons, allowing very large spacecraft to be built.

A number of engineering problems were found and solved over the course of the project, notably related to crew shielding and pusher-plate lifetime. The system appeared to be entirely workable when the project was shut down in 1965, the main reason being given that the nuclear weapon test bans made it illegal to explode bombs in space.

Project Daedalus

Project Daedalus was a study conducted between 1973 and 1978 by the British Interplanetary Society (BIS) to design a plausible interstellar unmanned spacecraft that could reach a nearby star within one human lifetime (set to be 50 years). A dozen scientists and engineers led by Alan Bond worked on the project. At the time fusion research appeared to be making great strides, an in particular, inertial confinement fusion (ICF) appeared to be adaptable as a rocket engine.

ICF uses small pellets of fusion fuel, typically Li6D with a small deuterium/tritium "trigger" at the center. The pellets are thrown into a reaction chamber where they are hit on all sides by lasers or another form of beamed energy. The heat generated by the beams explosively compresses the pellet, to the point where fusion takes place. The result is a hot plasma, and a very small "explosion" compared to the minimum size bomb that can be created using conventional means.

For Daedalus, this process was run within a large electromagnet which formed the rocket engine. After the reaction, ignited by electron beams in this case, the magnet funnelled the hot gas to the rear for thrust. Some of the energy was also collected to run the ship's systems and engine. In order to make the system safe and energy efficient, Daedalus was powered by a Helium-3 fuel that would have had to be collected from Jupiter.

Medusa

The "Medusa" design is a type of nuclear pulse propulsion which shares more in common with solar sails than with conventional rockets. It was proposed in the 1990s in another BIS project when it became clear that ICF did not appear to be able to run both the engine and the ship, as previously believed.

A Medusa spacecraft would deploy a large sail ahead of it, attached by cables, and then launch nuclear explosives forward to detonate between itself and its sail. The sail would be accelerated by the impulse, and the spacecraft would follow.

Medusa performs better than the classical Orion design because its "pusher plate" intercepts more of the bomb's blast, because its shock-absorber stroke is much longer, and because all its major structures are in tension and hence can be quite lightweight. It also scales down better. Medusa-type ships would be capable of a specific impulse between 50,000 and 100,000 seconds.

The Jan 1993 and June 1994 issues of JBIS have articles on Medusa. (There is also a related paper in the Nov/Dec 2000 issue.)

Project Longshot

Project Longshot was a NASA-sponsored research project carried out at the US Navy Naval Academy in the early 1990s. Longshot was in some ways a development of the basic Daedalus concept, in that it used magnetically-funneled ICF as a rocket. The key difference was that they felt that the reaction could not power both the rocket and the systems, and instead included a 300kW conventional nuclear reactor for running the ship. The added weight of the reactor reduced performance somewhat, but even using LiD fuel it would be able to reach Alpha Centauri in 100 years.

Antimatter catalyzed nuclear pulse propulsion

In the mid-1990s research at the Pennsylvania State University led to the concept of using antimatter to catalyze nuclear reactions. In short, anti-protons would react inside the nucleus of uranium, causing a release of energy that breaks the nucleus apart as in conventional nuclear reactions. Even a small number of such reactions can start the chain reaction that would otherwise require a much larger volume of fuel to sustain. Whereas the "normal" critical mass for plutonium is about 26 pounds, with antimatter catalyzed reactions this could be well under a gram.

Several rocket designs using this reaction were proposed, ones using all-fission for interplanetary missions, and others using fission-fusion (effectively a very small version of Orion's bombs) for interstellar ones. See antimatter catalyzed nuclear pulse propulsion for details.

More coming soon!

Hain · 03-11-2005, 12:09 PM

Before I read the refresher on the nuclear pulse engines,
IF ANYONE CAN FIND EITHER THE POPULAR SCIENCE ARTICLE OR THE DISCOVER ARTICLE WITH ALL OFF THESE ENGINES DESCRIBES, POST HERE SO I HAVE AN IDEA WHERE TO SEARCH IN MY PILES OF MAGAZINES. I BELIEVE IT WAS TITLED WARP DRIVE.

Hain · 03-18-2005, 09:04 AM

OK, I wanted to spitball and idea here because maybe some people would know what I am asking.

I was inspired by the space elevator and imagined the true sky scraper, a tower that actually goes into space. To build it, there would have to be an existing space elevator to extend into space, and then build the Mega Tower from space down and ground up. You would have to build from space because the weight of the building would be too much to have structures for. But, anyways, the centripetal force of the top of the building would not only provide a kick ass view of the Earth in your ceiling windows, but also take the weight of the building from the ground.

Yes, the cost would be astronomical (no pun intended), but could a building like this exist, where the top of the tower works to pull the bottom up?

ObieX · 03-20-2005, 09:46 AM

I'm no expert but i could see a few reasons why it wouldnt work. The main reason being the insane amount of stresses the building would face. It would have to deal with things like wind. Gravity would probably be too much for it, the intense weight of the building would crush it. The centrifugal forces wouldnt help it i think, and would only make the stresses even worse. The portion of building at the center of the gravity/centrifugal tug-of-war would want to tear itself apart. Something like a small earthquake would probably also be devistating. Also imagine if something were to happen that would require the building to be demolished or taken apart (or if it fell apart), it would be extremely dangerous to people over a huge swath of area.

The reason a space elevator would work so well is that it would be more like a tether, like a super-strong wire. It would be vastly more flexible, and able to stand up to much more stress than a building would.

On the other hand if you want to look at your idea in a slightly more limited way, you could place a structure at the top of the space elevator. Sort of a starwars cloud city, only in space. The main draw of this idea is probably the space elevator itself and ease of transport tot he "building". I dunno how large this structure could be, comes down to a lot of stuff like how you would anchor something like that, and what kind of tethers you could use to support such a large mass.

Hain · 03-20-2005, 09:56 AM

Eh it was a fun idea while it lasted. My buddies and I humored the idea sometime at the end of school whilst sitting in the common area. We looked out and I went, "How cool would it be to be looking straight down at the earth right now?" I think I'll go find some books on architecture and search around for tensile strengths of materials.

biznatch · 03-20-2005, 11:48 AM

This thread is way cool... I really like the idea of a space elevator. The concept does seem a little farfetched but definitely feasible in a bit of time... As for travelling through space, I think the ideas aren't very useful yet...I mean because it would take so much time to travel from a point to another so the technology in the end doesn't seem to have as much potential as the elevator.

kutulu · 03-22-2005, 09:16 AM

It would be really nice if we could use a space elevator system to transport nuclear waste to space and then direct it to the sun. Probably not feasible, but it would sure solve some energy problems.

biznatch · 03-22-2005, 03:49 PM

Well that solution is cool, I did always wonder why they didnt take a load of nuclear waste and dump it in space...
But the thing is it would be far too expensive...and since humans have no concept of taking decisions that affect a future thats in more than 5 years...it would never be done.
But i love the idea.

Hain · 03-22-2005, 04:55 PM

The reason why they don't take nuclear waste up is because it costs $10,000 per pound of weight on the shuttle to be taken up. Every pound needs its weight of fuel, and that fuel's fuel, and so forth. The tether would be a solution to that. Then, when the time of day is right, just launch lots of nuclear waste towards the sun, not like it'll be hurt by it.

A tether system made throughout our solar system would be amazing. Imagine just flying to Mars or Titan on a giant sling shot. Also, hydrocarbon fuels could be shipped over to Mars (if there is enough O2 in its atmosphere to merit combustion) and we have an on going shake and bake colony to terraform Mars.

ForgottenKnight · 04-17-2005, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augi

Before I read the refresher on the nuclear pulse engines,
IF ANYONE CAN FIND EITHER THE POPULAR SCIENCE ARTICLE OR THE DISCOVER ARTICLE WITH ALL OFF THESE ENGINES DESCRIBES, POST HERE SO I HAVE AN IDEA WHERE TO SEARCH IN MY PILES OF MAGAZINES. I BELIEVE IT WAS TITLED WARP DRIVE.

Popular Science
May 2001

"Warp Speed
Gets Real*
We thought it was fiction.
Then we visited NASA.

*Sort of"

ObieX · 04-17-2005, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augi

The reason why they don't take nuclear waste up is because it costs $10,000 per pound of weight on the shuttle to be taken up. Every pound needs its weight of fuel, and that fuel's fuel, and so forth. The tether would be a solution to that. Then, when the time of day is right, just launch lots of nuclear waste towards the sun, not like it'll be hurt by it.

Another reason we dont bring nuclear waste into space is that if something were to go wrong with the rocket bringing it into space the waste could be distributed over a huge swath of the planet and could get into the atmosphere.

biznatch · 04-18-2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObieX

Another reason we dont bring nuclear waste into space is that if something were to go wrong with the rocket bringing it into space the waste could be distributed over a huge swath of the planet and could get into the atmosphere.

Cool. No, I mean it..those Science fiction scenarios always thrill me..What would really happen if our atmosphere became unbreathable? Would we build megacities with recycle air...or underwater cities??

Hain · 04-18-2005, 06:46 PM

Thank you Forgotten Knight!!

Zeraph · 04-18-2005, 10:52 PM

What about gates that lead to the stars? I call it the Fargate!

And I will use them to steal alien cable and watch alien porn.

Slavakion · 04-22-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeraph

What about gates that lead to the stars? I call it the Fargate!

And I will use them to steal alien cable and watch alien porn.

Real life tentacle rape?

ObieX · 05-02-2005, 09:36 AM

Magbeam/Plasma Beam

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/.../mag_beam.html

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FEATURE
Beam Me to Mars

04.26.05

"Are we there yet?" Everyone has faced this exasperating question from impatient companions on a long road trip. Imagine if the trip lasted six months. One way.

It takes conventional rockets about six months just to get to Mars. Total roundtrip times can be as long as three years, because an extended stay on the Red Planet is required while the Earth and Mars progress in their orbits enough to be closely aligned again for the return trip.

But an exciting NASA-funded research project could send astronauts racing to Mars up to six times faster. The solution -- proposed by Dr. Robert Winglee of the University of Washington -- sounds like science fiction. A spacecraft rides a beam of plasma, which is electrified and magnetized gas, all the way to Mars and back. The roundtrip journey could be wrapped up in about 90 days using Winglee's Magnetized Beam Plasma Propulsion system, dubbed Magbeam.

How It Works and Where It Came From

The system would use space stations to generate the plasma and beam it to a spacecraft. The spacecraft generates its own magnetic field, which deflects the plasma beam. Like wind pushing on an umbrella, the deflection of the plasma beam generates a force that propels the spacecraft. Another space station orbiting the destination generates a beam to slow down the spacecraft upon its arrival, and to launch it on the return journey.

Next Stop, The Red Planet

A typical Mars mission would begin as Earth and Mars are approaching the point of closest alignment as they progress in their orbits, with the Earth slightly behind Mars. A conventional rocket first launches the target spacecraft into orbit around Earth. The Magbeam station would fire a plasma beam at the target spacecraft for about four hours, giving it a boost toward Mars. The spacecraft coasts to Mars in about 50 days, after which another station in orbit around Mars fires a plasma beam at the spacecraft to slow it down.

The spacecraft goes into orbit around Mars and the astronauts descend to explore the surface. After 11 days, they launch to Mars orbit, where the Martian station fires its plasma beam again to accelerate the spacecraft toward Earth. After coasting toward Earth, the station in orbit around Earth fires its plasma beam at the spacecraft to capture it in Earth orbit.

If the challenges can be overcome, the Magbeam system will offer several benefits: First, a fast trip to Mars will reduce the space radiation hazard to astronauts. High-speed particles from the Sun and interstellar space continually bombard any spacecraft traveling between planets. However, this space radiation can be deflected by planetary magnetic fields or absorbed by a planet's atmosphere. Getting astronauts quickly from one planet to another will reduce their exposure to space radiation. The high-speed makes Magbeam useful for missions beyond Mars as well, "We think this would be a good system for delivering payloads to Jupiter and beyond," said Winglee.

Research into this radical design is being funded by the NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts (NIAC). NIAC was created in 1998 to solicit revolutionary concepts that could greatly advance NASA's missions from people and organizations outside NASA. The proposals push the limits of known science and technology, and thus are not expected to be realized for at least decade or more. NIAC's intention is to discover ideas which may result in beneficial changes to NASA's long-range plans. The Universities Space Research Association operates NIAC for NASA.

Quote:

Image above: Artist's concept of a space station in low Earth orbit fitted with the Magbeam system. The Magbeam unit extends from the bottom module of the station, and the blue line represents the plasma beam. The plasma beam links magnetically to the target spacecraft on the bottom right, launching it on its journey. Image credit: U. of Washington/Robert Winglee.

Quote:

Image above: Artist's concept of a Magbeam station at Jupiter. The plasma beam, represented by the blue line, links to the magnetic field generated by the target spacecraft (top right). Image credit: U. of Washington/Robert Winglee.

ObieX · 05-03-2005, 06:57 AM

Autonomous NanoTechnology Swarms

Ok... this one is just badass lol. Brings up visions of the liquid metal terminator.

http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/...rers/ants.html

Quote:

FEATURE
Shape-Shifting Robot Nanotech Swarms on Mars

03.29.05

NASA Astronaut Journal, Mars, 2034:

The latest spacecraft sent to us is more a living thing than a robot. Shortly after launch from Earth, the tiny capsule blossomed into a sail and rode the solar wind to Mars. On the way, a meteoroid punched a hole in the sail, but surrounding material flowed in and closed the tear. Upon arrival, the spacecraft shrunk more than 100 times its volume to return to the safety of its capsule. After the capsule took the heat from entry into the Martian atmosphere, the thing emerged again, forming a parasail to float gently to the Martian surface, covering the rocks like a blanket. Now it moves like a giant amoeba over the rugged terrain, flowing around large rocks and over small ones, and growing stalks that carry instruments. Yesterday, it found evidence of an ancient sea. It grew an antenna and transmitted the observations to an orbiting spacecraft, which relayed the data to our Martian base. In a few weeks, we'll mount an expedition for a closer look at the area…

Engineers at NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md., took the first step toward this scenario with the successful test of a shape-shifting robotic pyramid. As the engineers watched like anxious new parents, the robot pyramid traveled across the floor of a lab at NASA Goddard. Robots of this type will eventually be miniaturized and joined together to form "autonomous nanotechnology swarms" (ANTS) that alter their shape to flow over rocky terrain or to create useful structures like communications antennae and solar sails.

"This prototype is the first step toward developing a revolutionary type of robot spacecraft with major advantages over current designs," said Dr. Steven Curtis, Principal Investigator for the ANTS project, a collaboration between Goddard and NASA's Langley Research Center, Hampton, Va. Using advanced animation tools, Langley is developing rover operational scenarios for the ANTS project.

The robot is called "TETwalker" for tetrahedral walker, because it resembles a tetrahedron (a pyramid with 3 sides and a base). In the prototype, electric motors are located at the corners of the pyramid, which are called nodes. The nodes are connected to struts which form the sides of the pyramid. The struts telescope like the legs of a camera tripod, and the motors in the nodes are used to expand or retract the struts. This allows the pyramid to move: changing the length of its sides alters the pyramid's center of gravity, causing it to topple over. The nodes also pivot, giving the robot great flexibility.

In January, 2005, the prototype was shipped to McMurdo station in Antarctica to test it under harsh conditions more like those on Mars. The test indicated some modifications will increase its performance; for example, placing the motors in the middle of the struts rather than at the nodes will simplify the design of the nodes and increase their reliability.

The team anticipates TETwalkers can be made much smaller by replacing their motors with Micro- and Nano-Electro-Mechanical Systems. Replacement of the struts with metal tape or carbon nanotubes will not only reduce the size of the robots, it will also greatly increase the number that can be packed into a rocket because tape and nanotube struts are fully retractable, allowing the pyramid to shrink to the point where all its nodes touch.

These miniature TETwalkers, when joined together in "swarms," will have great advantages over current systems. The swarm has abundant flexibility so it can change its shape to accomplish highly diverse goals. For example, while traveling through a planet's atmosphere, the swarm might flatten itself to form an aerodynamic shield. Upon landing, it can shift its shape to form a snake-like swarm and slither away over difficult terrain. If it finds something interesting, it can grow an antenna and transmit data to Earth. Highly-collapsible material can also be strung between nodes for temperature control or to create a deployable solar sail.

Additionally, the nodes will be designed to disconnect and reconnect to different struts. If a meteoroid or rough landing punches a hole in the swarm, the system can heal itself by rejoining undamaged nodes. "Spacecraft are so expensive because failure in a single component can cripple the entire spacecraft, so extensive testing and redundant systems are employed to reduce the chance of catastrophic failure. We wouldn't live long if our bodies worked like this. Instead, when we get hurt, new cells replace the damaged ones. In a similar way, undamaged units in a swarm will join together, allowing it to tolerate extensive damage and still carry out its mission," said Curtis.

The pyramid shape is also fundamentally strong and stable. "If current robotic rovers topple over on a distant planet, they are doomed -- there is no way to send someone to get them back on their wheels again. However, TETwalkers move by toppling over. It's a very reliable way to get around," said Curtis.

The team is conducting extensive research in artificial intelligence to get the robots to move, navigate, and work together in swarms automatically. The research includes development of a new interface that integrates high-level decision making with lower level functions typically handled intuitively by living organisms, like walking and swarm behavior. All systems are being designed to adapt and evolve in response to the environment.

Janey · 05-03-2005, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ObieX

The reason a space elevator would work so well is that it would be more like a tether, like a super-strong wire. It would be vastly more flexible, and able to stand up to much more stress than a building would.

On the other hand if you want to look at your idea in a slightly more limited way, you could place a structure at the top of the space elevator. Sort of a starwars cloud city, only in space. The main draw of this idea is probably the space elevator itself and ease of transport tot he "building". I dunno how large this structure could be, comes down to a lot of stuff like how you would anchor something like that, and what kind of tethers you could use to support such a large mass.

I just finished reading Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars series (red, green, blue mars) where he delves deeply into the space elevator concept. This is exactly what he described, a long tether, anchored in space to an asteroid for stability. the elevators were more like large moving hotels and warehouses. And there was a space sport/ city at the top.

very cool

crazybobmarley · 05-06-2005, 03:57 PM

Space: Garbage Dump of the FUTURE

Hain · 05-07-2005, 02:58 PM

Space is not the next garbage dump and is contradictory to this thread. If we just pollute space with crap then that makes it all the more dangerous to traverse our system. There is enough out there going 21,000mph to destroy a feeble ship that we don't need to add to it with a 21,000mph banana peel.

If we wanted to throw our trash into space we better launch it at the sun but I believe we will have the technology to make our waste into a clean fuel source before we have the technology to launch it at the sun.

Obiex, I just got to see those videos of the new style of lander that is being built and that is really cool. As to the ARTs and MEMs, I just got a book called Hacking Matter and it addresses the research being done to create artificial atoms that are convertable. If anyone wants to know more about it just google up Hacking Matter.

tecoyah · 05-13-2005, 03:49 AM

Nasa has just begun a new sort of X-prise....offering $50,000 for the strongest fibers for the tether.....and also for the most efficient energy beam system.

Looks as if they are getting serious about the elevator.....this makes me quite happy.

Hain · 05-13-2005, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augi

NASA is planning another system of X-Prizes to allow private companies to build the radical systems of space travel. Pop Sci released an issue about it. The new one is to create a reusable lander for on the moon. So guess what you need--a reusable craft to get to the moon really fast.

There going to keep making lots of X-Prizes, it keeps NASA's budget super low since they don't have to spend on research.

I wanted to try an idea my buddy and I were conceiving a plan for inner-system colonization. We call it the David-Goliath Plan, named such since the plan's foundations are based on the space tether elevators, which are acting as sling shots. The first place to set up another tether would be the moon. It is obvious a key step to colonization since it is the closest gravitational body to the earth.

Given it's low gravity and proximity it makes a perfect launch way for the rest of the solar system. Since water is present we can establish long duration colonies and bases. Water can split through electrolysis, powered by solar arrays, into Hydrogen (H2) and Oxygen (O2) gas, Oxygen could be used to make breathable air, and both H2 and O2 can be used as a cheap propellant. Also the moon is shown to have isotopes of hydrogen and helium which can be refined for fusion engines, the most probable first stage interstellar engines.

The next place would be Mars. It has a low gravity and makes it easy to launch vehicles into orbit. Colonies on Mars would be designed for the refinement of natural resources present and would make an excellent vehicular assembly station. Mars can also be terraformed through the next stages of the plan.

--The next stages in this plan would be the outer regions of our system, beyond the Asteroid Belt. If navigating through or over the belt prove uneconomical, then these places would have to wait for more efficient means to reach them.--

The next solar setup would be Jupiter's Europa. Europa's presence is not as vital but it is a valuable asset to this solar system since it also has water. The water again can be transformed into H2 and O2. This basically becomes the next gas station for cheap clean fuel. However, Europa may not be geologically accessable to support a tether since its surface is ice.

The last step in this plan that we have conceived is the presence of a tether on Saturn's Titan. Titan has been recently explored via the Cassini-Huygen mission and shown to have flowing hydrocarbons present on the surface. These hydrocarbon fuels are not to be used back on Earth but would be an asset to terraform Mars. I believe that an automated setup can be established between Titan and Mars through the tether to launch large containers of fuel. I believe that there is enough O2 in Mars's atmosphere to permit burning of hydrocarbon fuels.

This is what we got so far. It was just a cool idea again concocted in the commons area of our school.

tecoyah · 05-13-2005, 08:56 AM

I think the general Idea is sound....but would place the number one tether......on a platform in the oceans of Earth.

Whoever builds the first elevator here....will literally "Own" space as far as colonization.

ObieX · 06-09-2005, 11:45 AM

Electrodynamic Tether

This one, I thought, was pretty interesting. It harnesses the magnetic field of a planet/moon to create a large amount of energy for a spacecraft.

http://science.msfc.nasa.gov/newhome...t13mar98_1.htm

Quote:

High wire act may be best way
to explore Europa

March 13, 1998: As NASA works to make space missions cheaper, it is looking at the possibility of using a long wire to power spacecraft exploring space around Jupiter where Galileo is gathering more hints that icebound Europa may have the right conditions for life.

artist's concept - click for larger imageToday, Dr. Dennis Gallagher of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center will discuss electrodynamic tethers at the Ninth Annual Advanced Propulsion Research Workshop and Conference being held at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. (Right: An artist's concept of a Europa orbiter.)

In theory, a spacecraft could use a 10 km (6.2-mile) wire to augment rockets for propulsion once it reaches Jupiter.

"These are exciting possibilities that are worth exploring. The physics is wonderful," Gallagher said. "The engineering will be a challenge, though."

Which is to say that some very sophisticated controls will be needed to operate an electrical tether in Jupiter's dynamic environment.

An electrical tether uses the same principles as electric motors and generators. Move a wire through a magnetic field and you get an electrical current for power. Send electricity through a wire and you get a magnetic field that drags or pushes on any outside magnetic field.

This runs motors inside toys, appliances, disk drives, and generators in power plants, automobiles, and so on.

It can also generate electrical power for a satellite orbiting a planet with a magnetic field, or raise or lower the satellite's orbit - if the satellite has an electrically conducting tether.

NASA tested a Tethered Satellite System on the Space Shuttle in 1995 and 1996. Although it broke on the second mission, the tether produced some surprises in how electrical currents are produced and conducted by extended objects in space. Marshall Space Flight Center is now developing a Propulsive Small Expendable Deployer System - ProSEDS - that will speed a rocket stage's return to Earth.

If successful, it may be followed by an Electrodynamic Tether Upper Stage that would use the same principles to boost satellites to higher orbits, or a similar system on the International Space Station to help maintain its orbit.

"Jupiter is another path the program could take," said Gallagher, a plasma physicist at NASA/Marshall. "What we're suggesting is getting together with the Jet Propulsion Laboratory and doing an advanced tether study for a Europa orbiter mission."

The concept is to use a tether to propel the spacecraft and power its electrical system, thus saving the most precious of space resources, money. By reducing the amount of propellant needed once the spacecraft arrives at Jupiter, or the size of the electrical power system, the cost of the spacecraft also can be reduced, and it can be launched with a smaller, cheaper rocket.

An electrical tether will work only where nature provides both a magnetic field and a plasma (electrified gas). The motion of the wire through the magnetic field provides the energy, and the electrons in the plasma provide the return path that completes the electrical circuit.

The Earth's magnetic field and its ionosphere, which extends well into "empty" space, would do well for satellites here.

Jupiter is a bit more of a challenge, Gallagher explained.

Near the planet, where the plasma is densest, a 10 km (6.2 mile) tether would produce a 50,000-volt potential and a 20 amp current. That would be 1 megawatt of power flowing through a line just 1 mm (1/25th of an inch) thick.

"This would become a tremendous fuse and vaporize the tether," Gallagher said. This is also where engineering steps in and has to deal with the numbers developed by physics.

"You could only use the tether to conduct for brief intervals," Gallagher said. Theoretically, it could bring the satellite down from a high, 100-day orbit to a tighter, 5-day orbit. And the megawatt of power would be far more than than the 100 watts that the spacecraft would need during normal operations.

While the planet has a large magnetic field, its strength drops out towards the four large Galilean that are of greatest interest to scientists; the plasma density also drops. Europa is 9 Rj - nine Jovian radii, or 630,000 km (391,000 mi) - out.

"If you get that far out, densities have fallen substantially, and the field is pretty weak," Gallagher said. That means a much longer tether would be needed. The extra weight might offset the gains, and the tether would have a greater risk of being hit by a micrometeorite.

Oddly enough, another difficulty is the gravity gradient. The slight difference in gravitational pull across the length of the tether is what keeps it taut. But while Jupiter is the most massive planet in our solar system, it is also the largest. That means its gravity gradient is shallow more than 4 Rj where the probe would need to work.

The solution might be to spin the spacecraft so centripetal force keeps the tether taut. That, of course, complicates the electrical controls.

As for exploring Europa itself, Gallagher said that more needs to be known.

"Europa has a thin atmosphere and may have an ionosphere," he said. "Perhaps it has its own built-in blanket of current carriers." On the other hand, its magnetic field is very weak, so a longer tether might be required to generate enough current to power the spacecraft.

It might even be possible to extend a tether skyward from a Europa science station and power the the craft that way, Gallagher said.

So, the bottom line for now is a definite "maybe."

"One of the objectives of this study was to figure out whether it was worth looking at seriously," Gallagher said. "This study could just as easily have said, 'Don't bother.'" But it didn't.

"Europa is a potentially exciting place to use electrodynamic tethers."

ObieX · 06-09-2005, 11:53 AM

Momentum-Exchange/Electrodynamic-Reboost (MXER)

The name pretty much describes it. Basically it transfers momentum from one aparatus/station in space and adds it to another one, then lets go of that other object, chucking it into space or higher orbit.

There's a few different ways to go about this method, what's shown below is just one way.

http://www.tethers.com/MXTethers2.html

Quote:

Momentum Exchange Space Tethers
Momentum-Exchange/Electrodynamic-Reboost Tethers
The concept of combining momentum-exchange tether principles with electrodynamic tether propulsion techniques to create a capability for transporting payloads from low Earth orbit, without using propellant, was originated in the late 1980's by Dr. Robert Hoyt of TUI. In a "Momentum-Exchange/Electrodynamic-Reboost (MXER) tether system, a long, thin, high-strength cable is deployed in orbit and set into rotation around a massive central body. If the tether facility is placed in an elliptical orbit and its rotation is timed so that the tether will be oriented vertically below the central body and swinging backwards when the facility reaches perigee, then a grapple assembly located at the tether tip can rendezvous with and acquire a payload moving in a lower orbit, as illustrated below.

Half a rotation later, the tether will release the payload, tossing it into a higher energy orbit. This concept is termed a momentum-exchange tether because when the tether picks up and throws the payload, it transfers some of its orbital energy and momentum to the payload. Because the MXER tether facility's orbit drops when it boosts the payload, it's orbital energy must be restored if it is to boost additional payloads. The tether facility's orbit can be restored without consuming propellant by reboosting with electrodynamic tether propulsion.

Tether Transport Architectures
Several research efforts have investigated conceptual designs for momentum-exchange tether systems. In 1991, Carroll proposed a tether transport facility that could pick payloads up from suborbital trajectories and provide them with a total delta-V of approximately 2.3 km/s.

Soon thereafter, Forward proposed combining this system with a second tether in elliptical Earth orbit and a third tether in orbit around the Moon to create a system for round-trip travel between suborbital Earth trajectories and the lunar surface. In 1997, Hoyt developed a preliminary design for this "LEO to Lunar Surface Tether Transport System."

In 1998, Bangham, Lorenzini, and Vestal developed a conceptual design for a two-tether system for boosting payloads from LEO to GEO. Their design proposed the use of high specific impulse electric thrusters to restore the orbit of the tether facilities after each payload boost operation. Even with the propellant mass requirements for reboost, they found that this system could be highly economically advantageous compared chemical rockets for GEO satellite deployment.

Under a Phase I NIAC effort, Hoyt and Uphoff refined the LEO to Lunar system design to account for the full three-dimensional orbital mechanics of the Earth-Moon system, proposing a "Cislunar Tether Transportation System." This architecture would use one tether in elliptical, equatorial Earth orbit to toss payloads to minimum-energy lunar transfer orbits, where a second tether, called a "Lunavator™" would catch them and deliver them to the lunar surface. The total mass of the tether system, could be as small as 27 times the mass of the payloads it could transport.

Figure 2. The Cislunar Tether Transport System. (1) A payload is launched into a LEO holding orbit; (2) A Tether Boost Facility in elliptical, equatorial Earth orbit picks up the payload (3) and tosses it (4) into a lunar transfer trajectory. When it nears the Moon, (5), a Lunavator Tether (6) captures it and delivers it to the lunar surface.

The same NIAC effort also resulted in a preliminary design by Forward and Nordley for a "Mars-Earth Rapid Interplanetary Tether Transport (MERITT)" sys-tem capable of transporting payloads on rapid trajectories between Earth and Mars.

Momentum-exchange tethers may also provide a means for reducing the cost of Earth-to-Orbit (ETO) launches. This architecture would use a hypersonic air-plane or other reusable launch vehicle to carry a payload up to 100 km altitude at Mach 10-12, and handing it off to a large tether facility in LEO which would then pull it into orbit or toss it to either GTO or escape. This concept is called Tether Launch Assist.

03-09-2005, 07:21 AM	#2 (permalink)
ScottKuma Insane Location: Maineville, OH	Very interesting stuff! Although I don't see how these real (or coming-to-be-real) technologies can compare with the fictional Warp Drive of Star Trek. Unless you're going to argue that Warp Drive is something other than fiction. __________________ A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take from you everything you have. -Gerald R. Ford GoogleMap Me

03-09-2005, 08:11 PM	#3 (permalink)
Hain has a plan Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere	The best conceivable ideas for space travel would be the ion drives, light sails and the "laser top." My favorite ground to orbit device is that Space Elevator. Pop Sci had an article on them and that was fucking cool. If you really like these things, get a free subscription to SpaceDaily.com. My personal favorite for space travel is the Bussurd Ramjet. Basically, it is a giant magnetic collector that sucks in available solar particles and generates small nuclear blasts at the core of this field for propulsion. A fun but another inefficient system is the antimatter rocket. NASA is planning another system of X-Prizes to allow private companies to build the radical systems of space travel. Pop Sci released an issue about it. The new one is to create a reusable lander for on the moon. So guess what you need--a reusable craft to get to the moon really fast. EDIT: Oh yes, I wouldn't mind a warp drive system either... but physics just doesn't seem to allow the warp drive. Now if you want to really get somewhere in style! use a wormhole. Nothing yet to destroy the idea of a macroscopic wormhole existing and capable of allowing matter in this universe to pass through unscathed. Of course... where that wormhole will take you and when it will take you--even if you will remain in the same universe, or even in a universe with our physics--is still :cough cough: questionable. ;-) __________________ ////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\ Last edited by Hain; 03-09-2005 at 08:15 PM..

03-09-2005, 11:07 PM	#4 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	Bussard Ramjet (aka Interstellar Ramjet) : Since you brought it up I'll start with this on this next section. The Bussard Ramjet/Interstellar Ramjet would probably be one of the larger craft. Not quite as vast as a space elevator, but easily within size range of an MFD craft or Solar Sail craft. The biggest part of this ship would consist of a large Ramjet collector. Think of it as a giant funnel flying through space scooping up matter (namely hydrogen). What Bussard suggested was a type of projected magnetic scoop, that would extend far out ahead of the craft and push oncoming particles in like a funnel. This type of craft could also use a physical scoop to accomplish the same goal. Both of these comes with it's own problems. The magnetic scoop would need to be powered, and would probably use quite a bit of energy. The physical scoop could suffer damage of coul be destroyed completely by space debris. Each of these could be a problem for this type of craft, and where this type of craft would be used (interstellar space) this would be a huge problem since any rescue would pretty much be impossible. (tho an escape craft or altrnate thrust method would most likely be provided on such a craft) Anyway, this craft would collect hydrogen particles floating around between the stars to propell the ship by means of some type of fusion reaction. Warp Drive (theoretical) Well this one is a bit touchy, so i will have to come back to it at some point again, no one web page that i have found so far (i cant find the one i saw way back when just yet) can explain exactly what is going on, but here's a basic explaination that i picked up. What warp drive is (atleast my basic understanding w/o finding what i've been looking for) is that since nothing in space-time can go faster than light, if you were to remove the ship from that space-time and place it in its OWN small bubble of space-time, you could then move that bubble of space-time around inside the larger space-time faster than light. You would fold space-time around you (using large amounts of energy) then force that bubble either by shape of the bubble (by pinching one end and oozing your way throught eh fabric of space-time) or by shifting different energy levels of areas of the bubble (maybe projcting mor energy toward the front or back o the bubble, pushing the bubble forward in real space-time). When you are traveling at warp speed your ship isnt really moving at all (though it could be, however that movement would be insignifigant in comparison to the super speeds of warp speed that they wouldnt add anything really to your speed. For expample what use would traveling at 1000mph be when you're rocketing forward at 5x the speedof light already)), you're sitting in a bubble of your own space, and that bubble is what is moving. You would tear your way though the fabric of spacetime, (hopefully) sealing it behind you. It would be like an ant sitting in an air bubble at the bottom of a pool, then that air bubble disconnecting from the bottom of the pool and rocketing up toward the surface. When i find more info i'll try and slap it up here, but here's lots of ways to look at warp drive. This is just one explaination (and a rather crappy one) Will we be able to do something like this in the future? Maybe, but with the seemingly insane amount of energy needed to fold space-time, it would be pretty tough. So far the only thing that may even come close to this type of idea in any way whatsoever would be the MFD. I'm pretty tired now trying to explain that (and i haven't slept in like 20 hours), so I'm gonna take another break LOL. Later I'd like to get more into fusion and fission propulsion. I'll also touch on other things that are not-so-up-coming like wormholes, and other stuff like Tachyons. This is where my understandings start to break down, so explaining what i know/will find out will be pretty fucking tough... ... but then again i have nothing else to do. __________________ We Must Dissent. Last edited by ObieX; 03-20-2005 at 01:27 PM..

03-10-2005, 12:02 AM	#5 (permalink)
Radio Monk33 Psycho	Very cool thread, thanks for posting all this info. I never would of found it on my own. I am curious as to how you get these giant crafts to resist the impacts of various space debris, particularly the solar sail one.. __________________ "Punk rock had this cool, political personal message. It was a bit more cerebral than just stupid cock rock, you know" -Kurt Cobain

03-11-2005, 12:09 PM	#9 (permalink)
Hain has a plan Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere	Before I read the refresher on the nuclear pulse engines, IF ANYONE CAN FIND EITHER THE POPULAR SCIENCE ARTICLE OR THE DISCOVER ARTICLE WITH ALL OFF THESE ENGINES DESCRIBES, POST HERE SO I HAVE AN IDEA WHERE TO SEARCH IN MY PILES OF MAGAZINES. I BELIEVE IT WAS TITLED WARP DRIVE. __________________ ////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

03-10-2005, 04:19 AM	#6 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	just out of curiosity. . .What is this doing in Paranoia?

03-18-2005, 09:04 AM	#10 (permalink)
Hain has a plan Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere	OK, I wanted to spitball and idea here because maybe some people would know what I am asking. I was inspired by the space elevator and imagined the true sky scraper, a tower that actually goes into space. To build it, there would have to be an existing space elevator to extend into space, and then build the Mega Tower from space down and ground up. You would have to build from space because the weight of the building would be too much to have structures for. But, anyways, the centripetal force of the top of the building would not only provide a kick ass view of the Earth in your ceiling windows, but also take the weight of the building from the ground. Yes, the cost would be astronomical (no pun intended), but could a building like this exist, where the top of the tower works to pull the bottom up? __________________ ////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

03-20-2005, 09:46 AM	#11 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	I'm no expert but i could see a few reasons why it wouldnt work. The main reason being the insane amount of stresses the building would face. It would have to deal with things like wind. Gravity would probably be too much for it, the intense weight of the building would crush it. The centrifugal forces wouldnt help it i think, and would only make the stresses even worse. The portion of building at the center of the gravity/centrifugal tug-of-war would want to tear itself apart. Something like a small earthquake would probably also be devistating. Also imagine if something were to happen that would require the building to be demolished or taken apart (or if it fell apart), it would be extremely dangerous to people over a huge swath of area. The reason a space elevator would work so well is that it would be more like a tether, like a super-strong wire. It would be vastly more flexible, and able to stand up to much more stress than a building would. On the other hand if you want to look at your idea in a slightly more limited way, you could place a structure at the top of the space elevator. Sort of a starwars cloud city, only in space. The main draw of this idea is probably the space elevator itself and ease of transport tot he "building". I dunno how large this structure could be, comes down to a lot of stuff like how you would anchor something like that, and what kind of tethers you could use to support such a large mass. __________________ We Must Dissent.

03-20-2005, 09:56 AM	#12 (permalink)
Hain has a plan Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere	Eh it was a fun idea while it lasted. My buddies and I humored the idea sometime at the end of school whilst sitting in the common area. We looked out and I went, "How cool would it be to be looking straight down at the earth right now?" I think I'll go find some books on architecture and search around for tensile strengths of materials. __________________ ////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

03-20-2005, 11:48 AM	#13 (permalink)
biznatch Junkie Location: France	This thread is way cool... I really like the idea of a space elevator. The concept does seem a little farfetched but definitely feasible in a bit of time... As for travelling through space, I think the ideas aren't very useful yet...I mean because it would take so much time to travel from a point to another so the technology in the end doesn't seem to have as much potential as the elevator. __________________ Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

03-22-2005, 09:16 AM	#14 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	It would be really nice if we could use a space elevator system to transport nuclear waste to space and then direct it to the sun. Probably not feasible, but it would sure solve some energy problems.

03-22-2005, 03:49 PM	#15 (permalink)
biznatch Junkie Location: France	Well that solution is cool, I did always wonder why they didnt take a load of nuclear waste and dump it in space... But the thing is it would be far too expensive...and since humans have no concept of taking decisions that affect a future thats in more than 5 years...it would never be done. But i love the idea. __________________ Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

03-22-2005, 04:55 PM	#16 (permalink)
Hain has a plan Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere	The reason why they don't take nuclear waste up is because it costs $10,000 per pound of weight on the shuttle to be taken up. Every pound needs its weight of fuel, and that fuel's fuel, and so forth. The tether would be a solution to that. Then, when the time of day is right, just launch lots of nuclear waste towards the sun, not like it'll be hurt by it. A tether system made throughout our solar system would be amazing. Imagine just flying to Mars or Titan on a giant sling shot. Also, hydrocarbon fuels could be shipped over to Mars (if there is enough O2 in its atmosphere to merit combustion) and we have an on going shake and bake colony to terraform Mars. __________________ ////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

04-18-2005, 06:46 PM	#20 (permalink)
Hain has a plan Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere	Thank you Forgotten Knight!! __________________ ////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\

04-18-2005, 10:52 PM	#21 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	What about gates that lead to the stars? I call it the Fargate! And I will use them to steal alien cable and watch alien porn.

05-06-2005, 03:57 PM	#26 (permalink)
crazybobmarley Psycho Location: weeeeeeeeeee	Space: Garbage Dump of the FUTURE

05-07-2005, 02:58 PM	#27 (permalink)
Hain has a plan Location: middle of Whywouldanyonebethere	Space is not the next garbage dump and is contradictory to this thread. If we just pollute space with crap then that makes it all the more dangerous to traverse our system. There is enough out there going 21,000mph to destroy a feeble ship that we don't need to add to it with a 21,000mph banana peel. If we wanted to throw our trash into space we better launch it at the sun but I believe we will have the technology to make our waste into a clean fuel source before we have the technology to launch it at the sun. Obiex, I just got to see those videos of the new style of lander that is being built and that is really cool. As to the ARTs and MEMs, I just got a book called Hacking Matter and it addresses the research being done to create artificial atoms that are convertable. If anyone wants to know more about it just google up Hacking Matter. __________________ ////\\// IRONSKY.NET \\//\\\\ Last edited by Hain; 05-07-2005 at 03:12 PM..

05-13-2005, 03:49 AM	#28 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Nasa has just begun a new sort of X-prise....offering $50,000 for the strongest fibers for the tether.....and also for the most efficient energy beam system. Looks as if they are getting serious about the elevator.....this makes me quite happy. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

05-13-2005, 08:56 AM	#30 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I think the general Idea is sound....but would place the number one tether......on a platform in the oceans of Earth. Whoever builds the first elevator here....will literally "Own" space as far as colonization. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha