I've always loved casters the best but liked playing them the least. I'm fine that they aren't primary carries and don't scale quite the same as Yi or Tryn or Trist or Kat, but my main annoyance with most of them is that they are very horrible farmers early game.

Sure late game they are great, but who isn't by then? Annie does pretty decently with the mana back on her nuke but she usually then has to save her energize for ganks/counter. Ryze I've been experimenting with, I tried going all out farming, you'd think he'd be great, and I thought I was doing well too. Then I looked at our scores at the end and trynd had triple my minions kills >< Last hits are hard on casters cause theyre projectile auto attack flies so slowly and they can't spam their abilities early game.

Is it just me or does it seem like casters should be able to farm better? Besides the rare exception like Karthus anyway casters are the worst early game farmers.

I think Annie is an amazing farmer but yeah some of the other casters are terrible at farming.

I got some mana regen runes and am loving em. Since my favorite characters to play are champs like shaco, tristana, twitch, nasus, etc. who need mana but not mana items, and where it really sucks to waste an item slot on a regen item, the mana runes really solve that resource problem. I didn't go all out like laserath, just seals, but theyre quite nice. Also super cheap, only 205 IP per! I've got 6 so far, thinking of going all 9 + quints.

But not sure about the quints. Move speed isn't noticeable, nor is experience or gold really, health is nice early game but I *rarely* die early game anyway. Quints are a tough call as I feel I should take one of the ones that are unique (exp, gold, death pen, etc).

After some more practice on farming with casters I've come to the conclusion that most casters are actually decent to good farmers, its just ryze apparently that's all around horrible. I really can't get him to shine, and I can polish almost any character. Nor have I ever seen a good ryze.

Its pretty ironic since he's supposed to be the assassin of the casters yet annie and veigar have much better burst *and* team utility with their aoe stuns.

Spell flux needs to bounce 1 to 3 more times. When ult is active rune prison should aoe prison (for 65% of duration) not just damage. And all three normal abilities need their early cooldowns low skill point areas reduced, not what they end up at, that can stay the same.

I feel Ryze can be a good farmer depending on how you build him. Maxing E first improves his farm if you know how to weaken the creeps, maxing his W first is best for teamfights, and maxing his Q first is best for harassing in lane (great damage per mana cost).

I know what you mean about E, I've tried doing it that way and will at best get 2 minion kills with it(usually 1, while almost getting another), very rarely 3* but compare that to fiddle, who brings great CC to the table, AND with one spell, dark winds, can farm and harass better...point 1 dark winds does more base damage and silences, by point 2 it bounces just as much, point 3 their base damage approximately catches up (I think ryze is still slightly behind but I forget) but dark winds now bounces 3 or 4 times more (i.e. does more dmg), and generally surpasses ryzes E in almost every way. Maxed dark winds bounces 11 times and silences! compared to ryzes 5 times ~120 base damage. Dark winds can also bounce farther and almost always bounces for the full duration, whereas ryzes often only hits once if the champ is running away.

Wow, big paragraph, in other words, fiddle's dark winds is superior in every way except 1v1 when dark winds has nothing else to bounce off (soooo rarely happens, like once a game) of or when paired with ryzes ult I guess, but then you could bring fiddle's ult into it too, and his really kicks ass.

I really want to like Ryze. Keep in mind, I've done better with Karthus, who's supposed to be the most difficult mage, after only trying him in 4 or 5 games. And I played the old ryze and carried teams with him. The current ryze sucks I'm fairly sure. I admit I could be wrong. But there is just so much slightly off about him. For an assassin character with such slow move speed and such small spell ranges it is rare I can ever catch someone off guard. His spells are fast but not fast enough to continuously cast (not sure where that rumor started) even with full CDR and maxed ranks and nor are they potent enough to one shot someone like annie and veigar can frequently do.

So he ends up in this weird space of not being an assassin, nor really being a good AOE character nor a good utility/CC character.

*remember, talking early game here

Hey Zeraph, after our fail game yesterday, I almost got a pentakill with Tristana - took out 4 and dealt 90% of damage to the fifth - just didnt lasthit D:

My team were ragging on my ass the whole time about not killing their solo (Sivir) and letting her farm up 200 creeps in 25 mins - they neglected to see that I had 170 plus 3 kills - Sivir had none. So an Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Mallet and Malady later, I was critting 500 and took out their whole team (with the assistance of my own, of course). One push and it was gg. Fun times - reminded me of Dota, but not in the ridiculous Fuzzy-farmed and carry sense.

Hah, nice. Now do it twice in a row! Just kidding, that's particularly impressive with tristana since she has no AOE burst ult.

Just won a 65 minute game as Tristana. Now THAT was stressful. At the end I had Infinity Edge, Black Cleaver, Bloodthirster, Phantom Dancer, and Banshee's Veil. I was killing the enemy in 4-5 hits literally. After a bunch of clusterfuck team fights we eventually won. We got Baron 4 times. :) They actually stole our Baron the first time and killed 4 of us...they should have won it then but they got greedy. Thankfully 2 of their people screwed up at the end and me and Udyr took them out in the Jungle and were able to coordinate a final push. Our Veigar was hitting for 1200 with his spells..it was crazy. Definitely the longest game I've ever had.

It's funny all these crazy tristana games, I mine as well share my crazy one too from yesterday.

My items by the end where, frozen mallet, madred's bloodrazor, bloodthirster, black cleaver, phantom dancer, and infinity edge. Yes that's right, I had so much money and kills I actually sold my boots and bought the bloodrazor outright. I was killing people in several seconds, somehow we still lost...crappy team. Score was 25-10-19.

I think i finally saw the optimal Udyr build two days ago - maybe you were in that game, Zeraph? Our Udyr stacked 5 Zeals (one going to phantom dancer). His ms was 533, and he ate up heroes with bear stance going into tiger. Hilarious. In group fites he stunned everyone, switching around.

Just joking about the optimal build, btw. But it was still lulz.

lol, thought ms was capped at 500? or is it a soft cap? naw, wasn't in that game. He must have been zipping around.

Hey Joz, I'm thinking of unlocking Nidalee. Has she been nurfed or changed at all, or are there talks to?

Speed is softcapped: in joke games I've seen speeds of roughly 2500. It's kind of hilarious.

Nidalee hasn't been nerfed nor is there much call to nerf her. Right now the insider information is unlock Udyr if Riot doesn't get some sense knocked into them before they release this patch. He's going to be godly if all these buffs go through.

And say farewell to OP twitch :P

lol, that'd be funny. I'm tempted to create a practice game and see what I can get my speed to. I'm guessing 5 phantom dancers and...teemo's passive with boots of mob in there.

That's good about twitch I guess. I liked playing him but never had plans to unlock him because of his price. So good I suppose.

Udyr, huh. Hmmm.. I do like him, he's just not that fun. Has no fun tricks really, like shrooms, or teleport.

Hell even after his most recent buff Udyr is viable. Any moreso and he WILL be OP. Oh well OP champs make the game fun. :)

I just had a game an hour or two ago, Udry easily carried his team and easily led in kills. He jungled, which is the first I've seen. And would randomly spring out at people in bear and get random kills that way during the laning phase. It worked suprisingly well. The most shocking part was how unkillable this guy was with just boots, malady, and trinity force.

If you want to set landspeed records you need your whole team. I think Rammus is the favorite (other proposed ones are singed and yi and stuff but I don't think they can compete).

Measure who has the best speed buffs (nunu, janna, zilean, idk there's a bunch).

So what's the deal with the character contest? It's unofficial? What are the odds of actually getting your character created by riot? I'm working on one myself, would be awesome to see him in game.

Champion Suggestion Contest 3: Submission Phase - League of Legends Community
is the thread I mean

It's unofficial, and virtually nil. That doesn't mean you shouldn't post your suggestion: if you're lucky Zileas will post on it what he does and doesn't like on it, and if there's any potential with it.

The game's opened up now...

anyone who does not have an account can get one here: https://signup.leagueoflegends.com?ref=4b4f3a8d67660

Riot is giving away Corki to everyone. RAAAAAAAAGGGGGGEE. They better give an IP refund to those who own him already. Thanks for punishing those who supported you Riot. FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU face

Does anyone have any suggestions for Heimer? I played him for the first time last night and he was super fun. I just went mostly pure defense (armor, m resist and hp).

I've never played him but I know that ability power builds for him can be sick. His rockets hit hard as fuck.

Glad to see you back with us Whateva :D.

@Manwithaplan: this is very true. Is there any chance we can have this thread renamed something more suitable, since it's pretty much the general LoL thread now?

@Lasereth: I'm not sure how I feel on it. I feel biased since I didn't purchase it, but I voted yes. I can understand where you're coming from, though. I don't view it as a punishment, but I can see how you'd feel disenfranchised.

As for Heimer, a general caster mix is good. I go AP, MPen, and CD Red.

I could make a new thread, complete with review and sign-up link....

Naw, there's not enough of us and this thread already has tons of info. I PMd Reese to edit his original post so new people can see that the game is out now and free to play.

@ hemier builds- his rockets hit hard but are really still only good for early to mid game. And mostly for harassing. So I'm not sure I'd do an AP build around him. He also runs out of mana extremely fast anyways if you do that. Early game I'd go mana regen. 1st point still go towards turrets. Second to rockets. After that it'd depend on if you're going up against people that can heal or not. If they can't heal, then up those rockets to 3 or 4 and just harass the heck out of em. If they can heal turrets are still his main build. But experiment, he's a goofy champ.

So what does everyone think of Poppy? So far I'm kind of surprised, she doesn't seem to be the beast the forum QQers are complaining she is. Mostly she just steals KBs/mops up. Udyr on the other hand is sick right now. I ended one game with 5 buildings destroyed. You can play him so many ways as the game calls for, its awesome. He can play mid, jungle, gank, push, etc. He's a bit weak 1-5 but he just keeps ramping up after that once you can stance dance fully. He can take almost any champ 1v1 and does decently in team fights too.

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If they do give him away what do I need to do to get him? Is it automatic? They said you have to have an account made by midnight tonight. Do they mean an ign account (from voting?) Or are they just referring to your LoL account?

ManWithAPlan just wants to get his referrals. for shame!

And yeah, I'm back, haven't played much but I'm getting there. I've been trying new heroes a lot. I've been trying fiddlestix and I see people own with him but I can't do shit haha. I get murdered so quick.

Corki for free? That'd be awesome. He was on my to-buy list, but not at 6300 ip.

If you can show me the shame in it, then I'll admit you're right and feel.... shamed? In the meantime I affirm that I am simply sharing something, and, through no cost to yourself am getting a non-monetary reward. It was pointless to share before because I only had a few invites to give out to some friends. But now it's open.

And if we made a new thread, I could post all of this info and screenshots I have typed up about the game, and hopefully people would hop on board and then there WOULD be enough of us :P



btw- Udyr is the best farmer... phoenix stance lvl 5 = almost instant kill on a wave of creep with no mana cost
2nd best is corky, get a little bit of damage and cast your machine gun
3rd best is cho'gath with xp build - needs his stun and silence but that clears out a whole wave
4th best is annie - 4th because you really need a lot of ap to get her to kill a whole wave, and sometimes you miss some.

There are a lot of good farmers, but Udyr is certainly up there. I think he's a tick OP right now (turtle is lawlzy).

Cho'Gath with 22 MP5 at level 1 with runes is hilarious. I buy a Meki Pendant and use my full page of tier 3 runes and I can spam Rupture and Scream almost nonstop. Now THAT'S harassment.

Poppy is fun. I played as her a few times. First normal match I played I dominated. Right now her Q is actually bugged and is hitting way harder than it should so it will be "nerfed." Her ult is really cool in team fights but it's not as great at tower diving as I thought it would be since if your target dies, the ult stops. The funny part about Poppy is that you can build her pure DPS attack damage/speed/crit etc. and still be a tank. Her passive WILL be nerfed. When she's at 1/5th HP and you Feast her and she doesn't die...that's BS for a passive. As a matter of fact, if you build her as a tank, it lowers the efficiency of her passive, so pure DPS is actually better. She has the DPS of a carry and the survivability of a tank. She won't last in the shape she is right now. I think she'll be fine once they nerf Q though.

Fiddlesticks tips: spam Dark Wind in enemy champs as often as you can. Use your ult wisely: don't initiate team fights with it...use it to turn around a fight that's already in progress. Don't use it on fleeing champs either. Make sure to catch them in a terrible situation with it and you'll get triple and quadrakills if you do it right. Use your Terror fear spell on them when you ult so they can't get out of it.

---------- Post added at 01:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 PM ----------

I'm playing Alistar a lot recently. With my mana regen runes I can spam his heal spell without stopping, literally. Everytime it's ready I can use it. I can even throw in Pulverize and Headbutts and still not run out of mana. I dominate laning with him. Take Flash, flash in and pulverize, then walk behind them and headbutt towards your turret and it's GG. He's a freaking great tank. I won 10 matches in a row as him!!!

Meh. Poppy's passive only makes her a tank vs a few select abilities that do a ton of damage in one go. Almost all of them ults. Like cho, nunu, veigar, etc. There's actually really only a handful that make the passive truly nice. She so does not have the survivability of a tank. If she gets focused, which she often does as any dps does, she goes down .5 seconds slower than normal (talking strictly passive, not with ult). Whereas a decked out tank might not go down at all. Saying she has the survivability of a tank is flat out wrong.

Say she has 2k hps and gets hit for 200 damage, 10%, her passive does nothing. 250 damage, her passive takes off 25 damage. 300 damage, her passive takes off 50 damage. After that it finally starts to get noticeable, but really, how often do you get hit for insane amounts of damage? Most things come in waves like kats ult that does many ticks of smaller damage which her passive wouldn't reduce at all or you take a lot of damage because you're taking it from multiple people which it wouldn't reduce either unless a single source is above 10%.

Allistar is sick. He is one of the most useful champs to have on a team. Most just don't seem to know it as he doesn't get many KBs. But he is one of the best tanks/support/pushers.

Sivir is also an insane farmer when she gets her richochet skill up. There are a ton.

Fiddle: Another strat you can try is get (dark winds is awesomesauce tho) Drain up priority and fear 2nd. Those 2 right there net me 1-3 kills almost every game lvls 1-5. Because so many fiddles focus on dark winds first they never expect a fully skilled Drain on them so they often stay in range far longer than they should. Even with them beating on you you can still take them with nothing but drain (1v1). This can vary a bit of course depending on levels and equipment, but if you have maxed drain, and then maxed fear, and competitive AP/HP for your level you should be fine. Just be careful if they're at full hps as drain won't one shot someone the vast majority of the time but it will take about 2/3rds of their hps if they stick around and heal you for the same.

Edit: ManWithAPlan- and why can't you post it in this thread? We PM'd a mod to change the title. People have done similar things for WoW, and there's more people on tfp that play that, and the threads fall off. We really have no need of an extra thread for LoL.

I think you're misreading what her passive does. Poppy's passive reduces damage dealt by 50% if it's >10% her max life.


life: 3500
damage: 300 -> 300
damage 350 -> 125

That's huge. and if you're building her as DPS, that's your problem. Sure, any hero built for dps is gonna do DPS, but you're not using her full potential

Actually, its hard to say either way. I browsed the forums, and reread her passive. Neither of which was conclusive. So far though, playing her feels like my theory is correct.

Also las, feast will never kill her or kassidin as it is now because of how it works, not because it reduces damage. For whatever reason they made it so that it calculates how much damage needs to be done and does it exactly or whatever, so if you have defensive mastery, kassidins passive or poppy's you can't feast said player. I found that while browsing the forum for poppy's ult. I think that's a bug though that they'll fix eventually, not sure though.

Joz do you know how poppy's ult actually works?

Wait a sec.... I just pulled up her info from the game database.

"Valiant Fighter - Any damage dealt to Poppy that exceeds 10% of her current health is reduced by 50%. This does not reduce damage from structures"

Did it always say that, or did they patch it in the last couple of days?

But in any case, it seems pretty clear to me, if she's at full health, with 1000 health, any damage over 100, will be reduced by half. So a damage of 1000 (one hit kill) will get reduced to 500.

Is her Q bugged? I thought they fixed that on the Test Realm.

Her ult is still fantastic for tower diving, but yes it's not a get away free card. I'm not sure if her passive will be nerfed: that's somewhat the point of it xD. I personally don't feel it should affect certain spells (notably Cho's ult), but that's because I'm biased from DotA, where Axe's ult worked that (no matter what, if they were below the 'feast HP', they died. The sole exception to this was if Puck phase shifted the instant before Axe cast it.

Alistar is AMAZING. However: he should not be played as a tank. It'll win you games at low Elos, but at high Elos he's much better as support. The core item on him is sheen right now. He does not need mana regen early game (he shouldn't really be spamming his heal spell at that time). You are exactly right that his flash/pulverize/headbutt combo is his signature move, and it is DEADLY. The main reason Alistar is so deadly is that the knockup and headbutt at uncleanseable.


@Zeraph: While I don't think it's in need of nerfing, Poppy's passive for sure isn't useless. http://idunnolol.com/lol/poppycalc.html is a handy tool that'll show you against -normal carry dps- how many extra hits it takes to kill her. But you're right that she doesn't have the survivability of the tank; its just measured in a few extra hits to kill her (which mostly matters in 1v1 situations).

@ManWithaPlan: IRC consensus is that Zeraph's interpretation of the passive is correct.

@Zeraph again: Ult, or passive? The passive works the way you described it, the Ult is entirely different.

@MWaP: A 1000 damage attack will have the 900 portion reduced by 450, so she'll take 550 damage. As for the current health, as far as I know that's not how it works.



Man I'm having so much fun WRECKING with free Udyr this week. Lawl. Riot is facepalming, they might hotfix him soon. Protip for easy wins: solo mid Udyr, max turtle stance first. Don't be aggressive til at least level 3.

You can't put 3 levels in turtle right away.

While I understand what you're trying to say about Poppy's passive, I don't see how one can interpret what you're saying from the flavor text of the ability. If that is indeed how it works, then they need to fix the text, because the text says something completely different. In any case this is a question better addressed on the official forums

He said level 3, not level 3 turtle skill. Joz is actually quasi official. I forget what it is, council I think? Its only 1 step down from official. They get their own secret forums, damn you Joz! :D He's likely the most official response you'll get, unless you get super lucky in the LoL forums (like a 1 in 100 chance probably), which is why I like asking questions in this thread so much.

Manwith- Obviously that's not the case since that's exactly how I interpreted the passive on my first reading. I do agree that it can be a bit ambiguous, but not to the degree you imply. (and so can half the skills in the game, its just the nature of fitting in complex skills into one or two sentences)

Also, it is CURRENT health. Can you believe that crap? And ya its always been that way. Her passive really kicks in at low health since every hit is reduced by then. I wonder if they'll keep it that way... I mean still, its mostly only useful for 1v1 as it still doesn't give you tank survivability when getting focused fired, but damn. There's enough 1v1 or team fights where 1v1s occur off to the side briefly for it to matter. I've already died several times because I thought I could finish her with a nuke, then she charges and Q.

EDIT: I don't get how they can give such useful passives to some champs, but only give ~3% aura crit to TF.

BTW is twitch still getting nurfed any further Joz? Or was the ~ minus 40% speed and increased CD on his ult all that he's getting? I actually have a surplus of IP for once and am debating on buying him. Udyr *is* sick, but I find him boring, kind of like nasus, for some reason.

I'm not official really. Riot is the only officialness. That being said, I do make it somewhat my business to know what's going on in LoL, and I don't mind keeping friends updated too :). I do want to intern there as soon as I can afford to live in CA though :\. Being a dependent on the east coast makes this somewhat implausible atm.

As for twitch, he is being nerfed further, but they don't have the specifics pinned down yet. Others getting the nerfbat are Udyr for sure, and everyone is yelling at Riot to tweak Poppy.

someone ought to suggest they add anti backdooring like they did in dota. It's too easy in this game.

They have many times. The short end is that they like it how it is. I tend to agree. there are plenty of counters.

My only problem with backdooring is that mega-dps-ers like Yi don't always give you enough time to counter. Sure, you can often kill him, but not before he gets the tt and rax.

Currently on my longest losing streak ever in LoL. 8 straight losses. I used to be 24 wins up and now I'm 15 up. I play different champs based on what my team needs but every time it's like we're against waaaay better players. Udyr and Shaco have been behind at least half of those losses, and Kayle behind the other half. Udyr at level 11 won against me as Pirate and my teammate as Nasus, both of us level 9. Total BS. And Shaco...how the hell do you even lane against him with exhaust and ignite????????

Re: backdooring. There currently is a backdooring bonus that towers get. If there's no minions around they receive bonus armor and MR. That's about as far as Riot wants to take the mechanic (the #s have been tweaked many times, and I'm sure they'll receive more in the future).

Personally I think when the TP scroll mechanic is implemented it'll solve most of that.

@Lasereth: There's a LOT of champions that with some luck and skill can 2v1. That being said, Udyr is dumb right now :P. He's shut down in big teamfights by CC, but that's about his only weakness (and a slow, if durable, earlygame).

Shaco is interesting. I recommend getting a ward for your lane and keeping him down. If you're soloing ask for help. If you're dualing and got outplayed early ask for a laneswitch (sometimes even having your solo come deal with him). You don't want shaco getting a good earlygame or you're in for big trouble later.

Hey Joz, I think I may have found a bug with Twitch. This only seemed to happen when he used his ult. He had boots, frozen mallet (doubt those two matter) malady, and madred's blood razor...I always forget the exact name, but the expensive one, that does a % of magic damage (may or may not matter.) Anyway, I'm pretty sure malady was procing off twitch's passive, his poison. Possibly even madred's. After only getting hit 2-4 times from twitch's ult, I'd run away and watch my health fly down. I was getting hit for 30ish damage multiple times a second. And I could swear an occasional 60ish, but the numbers went by so quick I couldn't tell. And I mean a *lot* of damage just from this poison damage, this went way beyond his normal passive. I saw huge chunks of health come off. IIRC twitch's passive is 2 damage and can stack up to 6 times. Which is only 12 damage...So unless they changed him recently, or malady is supposed to proc off poisons (ya right..)

Woot, new personal record. 32 kills, on shaco. I looked at the clock at one point, the 15 minute mark, and I had 10 kills, I was getting a kill about every minute and a half, lol. The whole time this song was running through my head.
Damn it feels good to be a gangsta shaco
lol

I finally broke my losing streak last night. I lost 10 in a row but then I decided to dick around with Teemo since I hadn't played him in a long time. Well something clicked and I dominated every match I played as him. I had really high kill to death ratios every match and ended up 6 levels higher than the enemy team a couple of times. I also adjusted my runes and changed up my masteries and summoner spells. Either way it's really working out with good ole Teemo!

Nice. Teemo is quite fun to play. One item you may want to try with him, as it's not obvious, is nashors tooth. Most teemos I see play him as pure carry and don't pick up any mana regen or CDR, which means like 1/3 less shrooms than they should be putting out from lack of mana regen alone. And a simple chalice is a waste of a slot most of the time.

With the CDR and mana regen from nashors, plus my little bit of mana regen from seals, I can put out nearly twice the shrooms that teemos without any CDR or mana regen can. And shrooms = win. Also nice to have extra mana for blinding shot. I like to start with a meki pendant + pots and harass the crap out of them. So far it hasn't failed. I can 2v1 a lane like that, and with a competent partner keep them hugging their tower.

I've even kept back cho's with a regrowth pendant, ashe's with health pots, etc.

Tooth is MADE for Teemo :3.

I've never played Teemo before. Or Ashe. They just seemed too much like sniper and drow respectively, who I also seldom played on dota. Maybe an -ar or -rd mode in LoL will change that - or if Joz lets me mess around a bit in high elo games, like with Kayle (who i still suck with).

I've won like 8 or 9 in a row as Teemo now. Last match was like 17-3-15. I like this guy way more than I thought I would!!!!

copy cats! ;P

I typed up a pretty long epic reply here, but realized that most of it was pretty focused on me, which some here may not necessarily find interesting. My latest blog post contains a couple things about Elo, but mostly my history with LoL.

---------- Post added at 11:38 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 AM ----------

Back on topic: LOL PANTHEON.

I read it. You must have traveled in time to scalp my teemo build! :P Actually that's pretty cool we both came to the same conclusion.

How do you know what elo the games you were in are? Or were you estimating? I thought no one ever knew except the top 200 (and even then only once every month or more) and very few random people below that from forum posts.

All I can say is it was exactly 1637 at 9pm on 1/10/10.

---------- Post added at 01:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 PM ----------

And now to try to convince them that Pantheon is OP :P. Gogo playtest!

No fair!

Pantheon? New champ?

Open to all on the TR awhiles ago ;o.

Gragas I'm undecided on. Everyone seems to think he's UP, but I think he needs a bit of metagame cycling. I think pantheon will quickly become very situationally OP, even if his ult will be worse than useless in unskilled hands.

---------- Post added at 04:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:46 PM ----------

Up again.

2k Parrrley crits are hi-larious (when it is your ally). We did some theorycrafting and it could go much higher. It's awesum :3.[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]

(Btw, why did automerge fail me T_T. Now I can't delete the doublepost :P).

It doesn't auto merge if the time difference is greater than 10-20 (ish?) minutes or so, as it should be. Since you may be posting something new we wouldn't know about it if it merged.

Meh, I don't play the test server, too busy playing main. Too IP starved :P The no fair comment was that you got to see your elo ><

Parrrley is halARRious. The pirate, is such a random character, being such a crit based one, then with his ult being random damage too. Then of course he has a cleanse/heal on a 25sec CD... I've only played him a handful of times but had 2 or 3 insane games with him where it feels like I'm on god mode because I get all my good random damage at all the right times. I don't usually taunt, but I kept telling the enemy team I was a pirate jedi :P

Damnit, runes are too expensive. Especially the 820 ip ones. There is almost no reason to make them that expensive, especially since they don't make money off them and the 820 ip ones aren't any more powerful than the 205 ip ones, or they aren't supposed to be anyway. Especially considering how many champs there are and that each one needs a slightly different rune build.

Now that I'm working on runes finally, I'm trying to build a crit dmg rune page for shaco... it took me like 6,000 ip for like 8 runes :(

Actually, more expensive runes may very well be more powerful, they polled competitive players months ago on which were the best runes and priced based on that. It's -CHAMPIONS- which aren't supposed to be priced according to power.

I thought runes were based on math? How can math lie? Or did they intentionally imbalance them? Considering how new runes are and how old that poll must have been that can't be very accurate. It certainly can't be 4x of a difference. I can see a 1-200ip difference, but 600ip differences?!

They make in game items balanced, like 8% crit vs 14hp regen. I don't get the disparity in cost. I can understand if they want to make money. But if in game items followed the same code, regrowth pendant would be like 200g, and greaves (8% crit or whatever its called) would be 800g.

I don't get the difference. Buying MP5 or HP5 runes would be an early game advantage just like buying the regrowth pendant would vs greaves. Its like the same balancing formula.

First off, subjectivity plays a large role in all these things.

Items in game are balanced for a healthy metagame, not based on math. For example, Riot felt that survivability was too cheap/accessible/overpowering, so they gave survivability items a 10% nerf in effectiveness across the board (in addition to heavier nerfs to Catalyst and others). Giant's Belt for example is way less effective than its original implementation (which was fricking godly, lol. It was 500 HP for 1000g, or 2g per hp. Then it was 500 HP for 1100 gold, then 450 HP for 1100 gold, then 450 HP for 1150 gold, then 430 (or is it less now?) HP for 1150 gold). These aren't based on comparing a math equation to crit chance, but just how they want the metagame to evolve.

Runes were implemented a LONG time ago, and rather badly at that. There have been a couple revamps to specific runes, but it's still a case of balancing for the metagame rather than easy math equations by this point. When the Store came out, instead of rebalancing all the runes to make them as equal as possible in strength, they fixed the edge cases (HP quints way OP, MPen runes way UP) and just priced on popularity.

Again, I don't really mind. It's kind of the same thing with Champions: some people are outraged that they price them differently (regardless of whether they are tied to champion strength or not). I just think it's good business. Most all of the runes I buy are the most expensive ones, because they are my favorite. Doesn't really bother me, because I still don't feel the prices are excessive. I play a bit more than the average casual player but far, far less than a hardcore player (when I played 18 hours a day sometimes back in beta :P).

Pricing is just so subjective.

I don't know man, I just know this isn't a full game like say Dragon Age origins. If I want to buy everything I think its like 45$ + an ongoing rate for IP and/or exp boosts + hours of game time. That's like an MMO, yet this is a fraction of the depth of one. And I have not been all that impressed about their ongoing balance tweaks so far. This game is the size of something more along the lines of a one time buy of 30$ like HoN. I love that there's a free option, but I feel they went a little over board with some of their ways to make money.

I don't care what anyone says, Heimerdinger is OP right now. His rockets are absolutely ridiculous. I have been solomid Teemo here recently and there is nothing you can do versus those rockets. Jesus christ they hit so hard, and the range is ABSURD. I know the range is being nerfed next patch but still. He didn't even turret nest...he just saved all his mana for the rockets and kept me at bay very easily. I could barely stay in EXP range or I get hit by them. I killed him once with a balls to the walls Exhaust/Ignite/Blinding Dart/Red Potion/stand my ground thing but he got me to 1/10th HP and I should have died to minions. And that's versus HEIMERDINGER. AS TEEMO. Then in team fights he would waltz up, fire the rockets, and whoops there goes 1/4th the life of my entire team, not to mention is stun grenade which is hard to dodge in a team fight. I can't believe how he just shut down our team completely. At 15, with me at 12, I couldn't solo his turrets, literally. 1v1, versus ONE of his turrets, I'm dead.

Just raging ATM

I know. Its funny. I keep seeing people say how much hemier sucks. But they just haven't seen good ones. I also just recently realized AP increases his turret damage as well. And he's support. Also something people don't realize is that his passive heals real turrets as well. I've sat next to and defended nearly dead turrets and brought them back to nearly full. He can actually push or defend very well (as support, not solo) its just there aren't very many good hemiers + most teams won't work with him. They don't let him get a foothold later game.

Although I don't think he's overall OP, just early game missles vs non healing type champs.

Personally, I don't feel Heimer is OP. It has to do with champion diversity. There are a number of things Champions can be good at: CC, burst damage, AoE dmg output, farming, leveraging items, map mobility, etc. There's always going to be one Champion who is the absolute best at any one thing: this doesn't necessarily mean that they are OP, just that that's their niche. Balance has to take into account the Champion as a whole.

Heimer's rockets hit mega hard right now, but that's pretty much the limit of his burst. Assuming he's not fed, he's not going to be the bane of your team with smart play. What he is exceptional at right now is guaranteed, constant harass. I'm not sure how big the range nerf on his rockets is going to be, but it's going to help. A healer shuts down Heimer's biggest asset, since pretty much any (including Alistar) can outheal his harass with the long rocket cooldown. With healers being unfavored in the current meta due to strong -healing mechanics, this means he's generally a very strong earlygame pick for a team right now.

Zeraph hit the nail on the head with his last sentence: he picked out Heimer's niche. If your team can't find a way to deal with that, or at least minimize its effect and leverage your own strengths elsewhere, then it's either a flaw with your team composition or your play/teamwork.

(This being said, he DOES hit ballin hard ><).

Re: overpricing. As I said, subjective. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I not only respect yours but agree with your reasoning that LoL is not as complex as a MMO. Keep in mind though that that is not the main thing determining business model. LoL has a long, indefinite cycle similar to a MMO, unlike a box product. Their pricing scheme falls in the 'reasonable' category for me, but that's just my opinion and has no greater weight than yours or anyone elses.

(P.S. boo multitasking, lol. I accidentally referred to Wesnoth instead of LoL everytime in this post before I caught myself :P)

Nice post. And lol at the players in denial in that thread. Its really annoying how above average everyone automatically assumes they are.

People supposedly want a challenging game, yet still think they should be winning nearly every time. And if they aren't, its someone else's fault. This is the real reason why most people can't handle PvP oriented games.

That's in a nutshell, yeap.

Just got my first ever quadra kill in LoL. I did it as Teemo. Ha ha ha ha ha ha

Black Cleaver + Bloodthirster + me on the sidelines while the team fight happens, artillerying away = DEATH@!!!!!!

Haha nice ^^.

I think I'm gonna play some Nunu for awhile once I get back, but Teemo sounds interesting too. Gotta start saving up for Nidalee :3.

I think I'm done with LoL for now. Too much frustration, too little joy (constant balancing/updates, crap MM, leavers, afkers, moaners - its only worthwhile if I'm playing in premades these days. At least then you ride together, you die together).

ME2 and Dragon Age will keep me suitably occupied for the next while.

Sorry to hear that vaultboy :(. I will miss you when I log back on.

By chance, did you read my post on enjoying LoL?

I do agree premades are stabler (especially if you're not properly rated). /Ignore for moaners, leavers and afkers are tough to handle :(.

Will miss you!

Yeah, I'm getting sick of the community too. I know its not MMs fault but the people. I get people who are trying a new champ or have connection issues in almost every game. So its always so one sided. And if its not the odds are I have to listen to some idiot adolescents bitch at each other. I'm only playing enough to get my win of the day in pretty much. At least until they release a new champ. Then I'll play a little more, then go back to win of the day (if that).

Perhaps the one sidedness stems from the lack of good support characters and how well the offensive characters do. With so much dmg flying around its a lot easier for games to snowball. I'm thinking perhaps AD needs a 15% nerf, and AP needs a 10% nerf (both of em across the board, including base). Offensive runes could also use a nerf, I think you know which.

Champs can tower dive way too easily, or tower dart more like. That is they can run in, cast a ranged nuke, and run out before getting hit. Or literally tower dive, run in, kill you and get away. You can be standing next to the tower and still get hit and they can get away. That isn't right. The towers are already long enough range, I think nearly all ranged nukes with decent damage need a nerf to their range (skillshots and pure mages withstanding; I'm thinking of nunu, kat, etc). There are already too many champs that can harass you or kill you past the range of your tower with skillshots. Letting nonskillshots do this is like a slap in the face to the champs that actually have to aim their skills. This would also help with gank-snowball effects. The only other thing I can think of would be to add an AOE slow effect near towers.

Or something to those effects. Perhaps slows could use a nerf (as that's often what allows early ganking snowball effects.) Nerf carries slows the most, tanks should be mid, and support should have the best slows/cc. And protective effects (sans healing) like jana's shield could use a buff. The defensive tree could also use a buff, I should want to use that tree on all my characters (if I like it), including mages and carries. That's how they designed them. But that's obviously not how they work. Mages (9/0/21) have a spec, tanks (0/21/9) have a spec, and carries (21/0/9) have a spec.

PS Oh and one more solution would be to decrease the death timer and decrease gold and EXP gain on kills. Death timer is already fairly short so I wouldn't shorten that too much if at all. But gold and especially **EXP** gain from kills should totally be nerfed. Talk about snowballing effect, twitch kills 10 people and is now 18 while everyone else is still 9-11 and also now has gold for IE and something else (actually happened yesterday, he also got center lane). He can now 3-5 shot the entire team with ult. GG. WTF? Since when should 10% decide an entire game?

No offense, but a lot of what you suggested has (imho) very negative effects on the competitive metagame. Let's parse!

First off, biggest suggestion I have to you is /ignore and /mute (I never remember which is permanent). The instant an enemy says something that affects my mood, they're /ignore'd. I give more leeway to allies, but I'd rather ignore them than let them rain on my mood all game, even if it means I miss info.

I'm not sure how to help you with leavers/discers, etc. All I can say is that literally less than 5% of my games have a problem with that. Trying a new champ, eh, I don't see the big deal. To me what draws me back to a game over and over is friends and community. Sorry that a bunch of us aren't around, but try to make friends in random games that you can at least premade with. Maybe you have some RL friends who'd be interested.

Personally I don't feel offense is too high; I was very happy when they nerfed survivability items across the board. However, support champs are too weak. The reason they aren't designing anymore atm is the current ones aren't played enough. They want to figure out what they're doing wrong and fix that first before they make new ones. The patch notes for the patch today are a godsend IMO (with a handful of exceptions...really Riot? Pirate needed a harass buff?), with critdmg runes being nerfed. Personally I think they need to redesign that mechanic, but time will tell.

Re: tower diving. The problem here is that people want different things. I personally love that tower diving is so easy. It makes harassment effective. If you've been harassed out of your lane, you've been harassed out of your lane. Call for backup and heal up. If they're pushing and they're going to take the tower, they deserve it imo. Tower diving from full to zero is considerably less rare; generally tower diving happens when people judge they have enough hp to remain in lane, and their opponents can burst them down. I view towers as a strategic element, not a zone of safety. Again, this is all very subjective. But making towers much more effective at defending champions will really restrict aggressive play in the meta, which I view as beneficial.

Re: masteries. Being completely redesigned. Guinsoo feels your pain and he's working on them. They look AWESOME and much more fun (there's going to be several viable builds per tree, with multiple top tier elements to choose amongst, I believe you only get one).

XP gain on death streaks is being reduced, not sure when (or if already). Also keep in mind that kill xp is dependent on the one dying. It's 3/4 of that level (i.e. if it takes 3000 xp to go from level 5 to 6 and you kill someone at that level, you get 2250 XP). This means that there are many mechanics to limit boundless snowballing.

Also, snowballing is a Good Thing. It can be taken too far, but games that can't be closed are no fun, nor is it fun to significantly outplay a team for 20 minutes and then just get stomped from one bad team fight. I don't really understand what you mean by 10% deciding an entire game, or how much you played DotA: carries are FAR more tolerable than they were there (where it was possible to literally 5v1 with no gimmicks).

That being said, if you're getting tired of LoL, take a break! (But please come back later). I'm so damn excited for season 1 you have no idea. Riot's had a lot of what we've been asking for done for awhile, but they're going to release it all in one big celebration.

(That being said, todays patch had probbblems, we were way too busy on #lolsupport ><. I hope season 1 release is smoother, and somewhat soon).

I actually have quite a few LOL friends. Usually 8 or so are on at a time. But its hard to set up games unless you don't mind waiting an hour an watching your list like a hawk since people jump into games so quickly. Usually only 1-2 are available, and most of the time they're far below my elo. Fine to play with sometimes, but we almost always get killed. Not helping my problem.

Wow, you're lucky. I seriously tend to get 1/5 of my games have leavers or ppl with serious connection issues.

Glad we agree support is too weak, and riot does too? Groovy. What's to ponder though? Just buff their abilities.

Well, I don't have a problem with tower diving normally. In even games and such where everyone knows what they're doing. But like I said, I'm trying to think of ideas where lopsided games have more of a chance to be even. This was just an idea. Cause I'm really sick of flippin Yis and Warwhicks (or from leavers, when you add in all that, its like nearly 1/3 of my solo queue games) leaving me with a champ that shouldn't solo soloing 2v1 and getting bashed the crap out of and no one will come to help me. So I end up leveling slowly, and get no gold at all.

I wrote it before I noticed the patch, yay.

Yay masteries being worked on.

10% as in 1 champ (out of 10) can decide a team game. In that game I mentioned I was actually doing well as fiddle and had 5 kills at around the 20 minute mark. Twitch, the next highest, only had another 5 kills than I yet he was 6 levels higher and could destroy whole teams from safety. In other words, 5 kills and one champ should never decide a game. This is a team game.

Shrug, in my games snowballing is a bad thing. Right now about 40% of my games are decided in about 15 minutes. Maybe 20. Well before the surrender mark. They often go to 30-35 minutes because solo queues don't know how to push and this game let's you defend a bit too easily if anything, but it doesn't keep the games from being decided any earlier.

I think we're having a bit of a communication issue. If anything I want it to be easier to push. i just want the rewards for killing champs to be toned way down. Right now that's the main objective of the game for the first 25 minutes or more, yet taking down buildings to win should be.

Heard there was an update, so I dl'ed it and played last night. Weird thing is my ingame ping went from a normal 170-ish (150-180) to a stable 240 last night. MY FPS rate also fluctuated too much: from 38-60 FPS, which it doesn't normally do either (not since the Morgana bug). Made it untolerable. I checked my connection ping and its still the same as usual. Did they make changes to the map or something to increase the ping?

I've been arguing since I was a noob that kills give too much of a reward. Your reward is that THEY'RE DEAD. As in not in your lane, or any lane, or doing anything.

Kills should give 100 gold, assists 50 gold. Maybe a little bit more but not 300.

Re: kill rewards.

Some champions do certain things better. Some farm really well, some push, some are great gankers. In DotA, death had a penalty. This was very good for competitive play: there was a balance between the aforementioned types of Champions, and there was a way to keep the enemy carry down! (Gank him over and over and over and over and you get the point).

Removing the death penalty in DotA was one of the FEW things they did to value casual, fun gameplay over depth of the metagame. In fact, I can't think of a single other major change (most things they try to make the game newb-friendly while not affecting competitive play in the slightest: see the shop layout). However, as such, the balance between Champions is much different. Especially on an enemy carry with teleport, even WITH the current kill gold, they could go 0/8/0 and still catchup to the farmed opponents by lategame. It's still very difficult to keep a carry down, and the gold/xp gain from kills is the main thing doing that (instead of hurting their gain, you increase yours more significantly).

As for the specific #s, I'm no game balancer. Also, the spree bonus is to allow comebacks (getting 1500 gold for ending a godlike spree).

Notably, way back in July or August, Tristana's explosive shot was only the passive, and it was majorly stronger (like 250-300 dmg or something at level 5). It was IMPOSSIBLE to stop her from farming. She's just sit in a lane for 25 minutes and nomnomnom moneyz. You could gank her 8 times in a row and she'd just hop right back in and farmfarmfarm. Of course she was unstoppable lategame.

This is a situation brought on by the lack of death penalties; at least with pretty high kill rewards you can hope to outpace her.

If that's really a problem they can bring down minion gold numbers as well. I like finishing builds and all but at the same time it should never really happen (cause then gold becomes useless). And its happened way too many times fairly quickly, where there's a good, even game going for once, I'll finish by around 45 minutes (and still play for another 15 minutes). That's 25% of the game where gold is useless.

I just had a game last night where I finished my build completely with Anivia at about 45 minutes with 730ap (just from items). I couldn't have gotten anything better. And she's not exactly a farmer or ganker (she *can* but she has fair mana problems which she needs to save for team fights.) The game was fast and I only had time to get golem once so I was hardly running around farming.

I also wouldn't mind a 7th slot just for consumables.

Anyways, that was when tristana had her overpowered skill. That's not really the case anymore. Now its gankers that are running the show and the bonuses need to be toned back. Maybe not as far as lazerath suggested. But by a 100g or so (keep assists the same), and like half the exp.

omg, best lol thread eva. Heimer fans will love this :D
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board...ad.php?t=53681
drop.io Marak_Heimer_Time

Heimer time! Can't touch this!

Wow that is epic.

We have a difference of opinion where kill rewards need to be toned down :(. That being said, many players do share your sentiments. You'll definitely get support with a thread on the official forums (but also some dissent/stupidity).

I prefer the Dota death penalty over the LoL kill reward. Maybe the solution is a balance between the two? -100g / +100g (retaining scaling the reward up for ending spree)?

I've found that lately games are starting to get longer, which sucks for mismatched games. I remember a recent game where it was 10-40, and hitting the 50 minute mark. That should just not happen. I know that balancing is primarily done on the basis of competitive play, but they got it right for dota. Given their objective of shorter LoL games, they should find a way. They got objectives 2 and 3 - (less passive play and gankfesting) right, so I'd like them to find a way to return to shorter games.

Instead of Deciding to nerf the 820ip runes, why didn't they rather improve the cheaper ones? THere are enough runes that seem pretty pointless for the cost.

I think everything in the base except nexus should be easier to destroy. I too am sick of defending a base for 15 minutes because the enemy team can't break in, yet we know we have almost 0 chance of turning it around. OTOH when you do...its pretty awesome. But it happens so rarely its not worth the annoyance the other 9/10ths of the time.

i actually think the buildings are easy enough to destroy. and i like the fact that supercreeps are so strong. My problem is that some team know that they're coasting and then start to relax - drawing the game out for kills. It is spectacular when its turned around, but like you say, it happens too rarely to be worth it. There should be some kind of penalty to lanes without heroes, to avoid situations where teams sit and wait in the bush and don't finish it off, but i don't know what would work best.

Well if they made the buildings easier to destroy the backdooring code would need to be buffed of course. But the problem is teams almost never go for the turret until they have such a huge advantage that the other team can barely touch them. If its even close to even they'll probably never touch the base (unless its an AT centered around pushing early.) So making em easier to destroy would reward riskier behavior. Make you follow through with a push rather than feinting 15 times until they make a mistake. Either that, or perhaps just lower turret damage so more team fights can break out around turrets.

Well...what do you want xD. Lower tower dmg = more tower diving...but you want easier pushes :P.

I think organized teams have no problems pushing; its solo queue that's the problem. People need to be tanks and initiators (which has to happen at CSS where everyone has the "I need to carry the rest of these newbs" mindset at most Elos), and they need to dive in there, and their team needs to follow. Without vent, you don't have your leader calling the shots, so everyone is prancing around like ponies waiting for someone else to show initiative.

At least, that's my solo q experience.

These are separate ideas, not a cohesive thesis :P And yes, solo Qs of course. No problems with good ATs. But since the majority of people play bad ATs or solo Q I think most of the balance should go toward them.

Although an idea to merge the two and kind of expand on their backdoor code, the more enemy minions and champs around a tower, the weaker it gets. The fewer, the stronger it is.

It would be cool if you could Q up as a certain class. Like Q up as a tank, and you'd be paired with a team that needed a tank. I hate playing a tank for a team that doesn't even want one.

My philosophy on balancing mirrors Riots.

Re: specific champions/items, etc.: it should not be OP at any tier of play that you spend any amount of time in (meaning you don't balance for newb island :P). This includes pro/extremely competitive, high Elo, and mid Elo. After that, they are balanced to make the most viable heroes at the top level. Because of the first requirement, it's often not possible to make every hero viable for competitive play. For example, old Ryze: sucked at competitive level, but would have absolutely facerolled at mid Elo (more than he already did) with any sort of buff. I love his remake, even if he was a tiny bit UP. I'm very excited for the upcoming Ryze buffs.

As for gameplay, I think that if at all possible, it should enrich the competitive metagame while not making the life of a newb much harder than it already is. I'm amazed at how many things Riot has done to make the learning curve smaller without diminishing the competitive metagame. The only one as I mentioned was death streaks.

As for gameplay, imo, it needs to be balanced for competitive first, casual second: even if casuals play MORE, you cannot balance a game for them. There's a lot of game dev theory stuff on this (which I am not very well versed in), but that's just my opinion on the matter. Casuals emulate high tier play. Making the game easier for casuals to push and such is going to poorly affect the competitive scene, where it's already quite difficult to defend.

Eh except I'm really not even talking about casual, certainly not newb island. I'm certainly not casual. I've played 450 games (wow I just realized this...) in about 2 months. I hope that's not considered casual? I'm simply saying the game should be balanced for the majority. If it isn't, common business sense says they'll be SOL pretty quick.

Well, technically, I guess there's three categories. Casual, hardcore (plays a lot) and competitive (just determined really with Elo atm). Games NEED to be balanced for the competitive crowd; however, they also need to be both fun for the hardcore and casual crowd (and each has its own priorities). Stuff like First Win of the Day is fantastic at making the casual crowd feel rewarded.

I've been referring to casual as anyone not competitive; not as a slight on how much the game means to you or how much you play.

I've been playing on a smurf account recently. It's fun to be able to play any champ. I can actually play Trynd!!!!!! weee!!!!!!!!!

---------- Post added at 03:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------

I can also play Taric with infinity edge. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

I finally submitted a champ for fun. I give you Oku, the Shinobi.
https://www.leagueoflegends.com/boar...469#post624469

I think the CSC is really cool, really. I promise. I love the creativity.

The people who run it irritate me, no offense to them :P. It's annoying having them bumpbumpbumpbumpbumpbumpbumpbumpbumpbumpbumpbump all of their topics to the front page of general discussion every couple minutes.

"OH MY GAWD WE LET IT GET TO THE SECOND PAGE, WE ARE FAILURES".

:\.

It more people thought like that, there'd be no 'legitimate' topics on the front page :P (I put legit in quotes because of course it's entirely my opinion and subjective :P).


While the #s are obviously subject to balance (Holy OP batman xD <3) I don't like one or two of your mechanics, but I feel he's very flavorful :D. I'm a big fan of flip out; it reminds me a bit of Meepos ability from DotA (he was one of my favs :3).

I know it doesn't really matter (like riot is going to pick it up anyway :D ), but really? I don't think I'm that far off on the numbers. His biggest damage ability, darts through shadows, is the exact same numbers as shiv...its only bonus is that it can crit, like parrrley. but it can also be dodged, blocked, etc. and of course it doesn't gain any of the other benefits that shiv gets (like slow or harassment potential).

His other main damage ability besides ult, Poison Dart Storm, deals 2/3s (pretty close) of your auto attack damage per hit over 1.5 seconds for 4 hits...that you can walk out of in a thin cone. Its his slow and can also crit, but again, can be blocked, dodged, etc.

most of his abilities also have some sort of drawback to using them too.

edit- oops :) I think I misremembered shaco's damage on shiv, I think its half attack + 200 at max rank. No wonder :P nm Still, should do more damage than shiv. Changed it to 65% of AD + 200 at max rank.

Actually I was specifically referencing the ult #s you mentioned; I also don't like how it feels very reminiscent of Pantheon's ult :(. I gave it a pretty quick read through though (no offense, it's just that Riot is unlikely to pick ANY custom champs so yours was the only one I've read like...ever, unless there's a Red response on it :P)