Meridae'n

I've moved this to a new thread mate, hope u don't mind.

It really is a no-win situation this one. We can't have an open-door policy or else in 20 years we might as well change our name to Talibania, but detaining everyone indefinately who sneaks in is also an untenable situation in the long run. This is a problem faced by many countries and i can't really offer an alternative.

What i can say is that I seriously doubt these people are being 'treated like savages'. Do you honestly think, living here and knowing how anal all the regulations and restrictions on everything are, that those people would be getting treated with an utter lack of respect? The visions you see on TV are being used to push an agenda. If someone wants you to be pissed off and demand a stop to detaining these people, they're going to take the worst scenes they can get their hands on, whether it's in context or not, and try to paint the bleakest picture they can.

Note: The term refugees doesn't apply here IMO. They have broken our laws on our territory. I endorse the intake of refugees but I don't think that covers people who have paid large sums of money to be smuggled into our country.

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MrFriendly

I don't mind you starting a new thread at all :-)

But you must understand, this is also a personal issue for me.

My mother, you see, came to this country at the age of 15 after the Nazi's were finally kicked out of Holland. What her and her family lived through during that time was unspeakable. But they were given a chance, they were given a chance to start a new life, but they had to do it in central QLD. They were given endless amounts of shit for being different, for not being from there, but they persisted and prospered.

Now I always treat what the media feeds us with great trepidation. But, not so long ago I met a guy who worked in IT and used to live in Canberra (my home town). We hit it off because we hated Canberra with great passion, but he later revealed to me that he came to this country as an Afghani refugee. He had to spend time in one of these 'detention centers'.

He didn't have fond memories of them, and he didn't like talking about what happened there, but the one thing he did say that really stuck it hard with me was "I didn't risk my life to come here to find the one thing I was trying to escape". He's a good man, a Muslim man, married to a Greek woman now, and extraordinary life experience behind him. He loves this country, and considers himself an Aussie, but hates the way he was treated when he got here.

Look at our history, look at the way we treated our POW's when we had to keep them here. It's just not the Australian way, it's not what our ANZACS fought for, it's just not the Aussie spirit. A lot of us do it tough, a lot of us always have, especially those in the Bush. We support the battler.

This nation was always about a fair go, but in recent years I just don't see that any more, and it hurts me. I was always raised as an Australian that this was a fair country, an egalitarian country, a country where it didn't matter where you were from, who you were, what class you were raised in, you could make a go of it and succeed if you wanted.

I was also raised during the Hawk / Keating government.

But immigration policy now seems to fly in the face of all that.

And that to me, is what an Aussie is all about, especially here in Melbourne. We're just people, like anyone else, just trying to make a go of it.

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spindles

I think Meri has a good point. Are we in a position to just open our borders to any comers? We certainly have the space...

Personally, I'd like to raise the numbers we allow in, but that shouldn't mean people can 'jump the queue'. What right do we have to allow anyone to come in, in place of someone who has gone through the process to do it legally?

Also, if we did make the camps a better place, would it really act as a disincentive for people coming illegally?

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MrFriendly

The disincentive should be that if you come here illegally you'll be sent back home.

If people are desperate enough to drop everything and go through the extraordinary lengths to get here, I'm pretty sure that the scum selling them passage are going to forget to mention what will happen to them if they get caught.

Abusing the human rights of refugees, the same human rights we apparently stand for as a nation, is completely unnecessary. Look at this way, so say you have to spend time in one of these centers, and then we grant them citizenship, no we have someone who already feels alienated and pissed off. If that happens to enough people it's only going to serve to created a whole myriad of social problems down the line. The media as it is already does it's best to divide our country based on race. Look at the Cronulla riots, the media played such a big part in starting that it wasn't funny, and all because they took a problem that had been going on on those beaches for years and sensationalised it.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that we should be careful who we let in. But also, we need to look at how immigration is managed once migrants move to this country. Look at all the racial tension Sydney seems to have, and has seemed to have for the last 25 years. Yet, Melbourne, which has large populations of Indian, Greek, Italian, Asian, and Lebanese migrants doesn't seem to have any where near the kind of social unease that exists in Sydney.

I honestly don't know where the policy differs, but I've spend a lot of time in both cities and there's a very noticeable difference.

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Meridae'n

The problem here being that we can't send them back home. First you have to work out where home is, and secondly you have to legally prove to the recipiant government that you have some of their nationals in custody. I could only imagine how much red tape there would be there.

And therein, as the bard says, lies the rub. The real criminals here are the people who are bringing these people into our country. Stop the smugglers and you stop the illegals. The problem here is that Indonesia have no intention on stopping this trade. Clamping down would take money and resources, both of which they can't afford, to do what... stop something that doesn't really effect them at all? Not going to happen.

The media is just a reflection of public opinion. Whatever is more popular gets more front pages. The Cronulla riots happened because people (of many races) are sick to death of groups of muslim men spitting on women, abusing people, and pack hunting. There'll be more of this because these men will not stop acting like this. In most cases they are 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants who's parents/grand parents have given everything for their new home but they themselves are full of hatred and cowardice.

Firstly which human rights are we denying exactly? They are in detention because they have broken the law. In no country on earth is ignorance of the law an excuse for breaking it. If you're talking about treatment inside these places I would like to hear of actual examples of human rights abuses. By this I don't mean unsubstantiated stories from those with something to gain from this situation. I have two mates from Wagga who have worked at Woomera for extended periods of time who have never seen anything untoward happen to anyone in their custody.

As for your other point you are spot on the money. If we just let these people in there will be consequences down the track. Why are these people trying to get in without being screened? What do they have to hide? If they are true refugees why haven't they applied for that status in the first country they came upon? No, these people have cross a number of borders to come to Australia in particular, and have paid large sums of money to avoid the screening process, and we need to know why. Millions of peopl have migrated to Australia thru the correct channels, why do these people think they don't have too?

Yeah there is a huge difference. This difference comes about from the relative difference in the muslim populations of Sydney and Melbourne. Don't worry, I'm not a muslim basher, but it is fact that young muslim men have extremely little respect for women, and only slightly higher respect for people of other cultures. In Melbourne europeans and asians make up a far greater percentage of the non-anglo saxon population, whereas in Sydney there are far more muslims. Don't think I'm on the money, please offer me a different theory.

We don't actually. Our major cities are already dense and these people will never move out to the country.

The people who are coming into this coutry illegally have no idea that the camps exist i would say. Even if they did they would be more than preparred to live in a cell for 2 years to gain residency into Australia.

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What's easier to believe: that a guy was born without sex in the manner of several Greek demigods and grew up to be able to transmute liquids and alter his body density yet couldn't escape government execution, or that three freemasons in a vehicle made with aluminum foil in an era before digital technology escaped our atmosphere, landing on the moon, broadcasted from there, and then flew back without burning up?

MrFriendly

A fair point, but in my view, if the Department of Immigration is to decide that detainees are not suitable for naturalisation here, then they should go through this process. What else are we supposed to do with them?

It doesn't seem right that we should be able to detain refugees indefinitely without due process. Remember these aren't criminals, they're refugees. Even alleged criminals are given the right to a presumption of innocence until proven guilty in court.

Unfortunately this is all too true. However, I remember an incident a number of years ago when Indonesia cracked the shits because we gave refugee status to a whole bunch of Indonesians that made it here. It seems that Indonesia wants it both ways. Our government should be willing to stand up to Indonesia on this issue, I dare say they need us a lot more than we need them. But then again, our relationship with Indonesia has always been a sensitive one, but neither of our nations can really afford to be pissing off the other.

I'm inclined to disagree with your statement about the media. I can recall being at a protest in Canberra when Bush came to visit. I was there as an impartial legal observer. I watched the media take several things that happened at that protest completely out of context or flat out lie about events that took place. But why let facts get in the way of a good story eh? The media is used as a tool to INFLUENCE public opinion.

But this point is very important in regards to the Cronulla riots. One of the main news papers in Sydney is the Herald Sun, well known for being conservative and pro right. These are the same people that are good buddies with Allan Jones, the same man recently found guilty by ACMA for making comments that were divisive. Some reading material:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/nation...788205966.html

http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/tra...s/s1898662.htm.

The Cronulla riots was more complex than what the media would have us believe. The western suburbs of Sydney have been a dumping ground for migrant communities (a point I will return to). Beach communities at Bondi, Coogee, and Maroobra had been long frustrated with thugs from the western suburbs (which in general is of lower socio economic status) coming to the beaches and causing problems. This behavior has not just been limited to one ethnic group. The incident that happened was nothing out of the blue, some drunk teenage boys, who roam around in packs, think they're king shit, decided to give grief to a life guard, the life guard gives shit back, and there's a fight.

What happened this time is that it was a life guard who was bashed up. Now, lets think about this for a second, what if it were a bunch of white Australian boys who beat up the life guard? I doubt it would have even made it into the 4th page of the paper, if at all. Instead, the media decided to once again make it real important that everyone know that it was a Lebanese gang, going out of their way to destroy our way of life by beating up a life guard. It was pure sensationalism. If the media had been more responsible, I dare say that the appalling turn of events wouldn't have happened to the severity that it did. It actually made worried about the kind of symbol our own national flag was being used as.

The media in Sydney seems to doing everything it can to create a divide between the general public and the Muslim community. Teenagers being teenagers are feeling alienated and angry at the world. I'm not denying what's going on, I'm not denying there are serious social problems that need to be addressed. But stirring the pot up and vilifying communities really isn't a way forward, would you not agree?

http://www.chilout.org/news/news_archive_0502_1001.html

http://www.hreoc.gov.au/human_rights...ts/hrc_24.html <- And this is the governments own findings into such abuses.

Meridae'n, the truth about this is I can sit here and quote sources to support my point, and you no doubt can generate just as many to support yours. But what you and I both have to agree on is that really, we don't know. Neither you or I are there, or have been there, and at the end of the day, really don't know the truth.

But there was an awful amount of ruckuss being generated over the treatment of detainees, and as a democracy, we need to kick up a fuss until something gets done, and until the matter is looked into thoroughly.

Yes, you're right, we do need to find out why, this is important. But, is it right to 'assume' that because they didn't / couldn't go through normal channels that they're immediately bad? The presumption of innocents is one of the key stones to our legal system, why then should it not apply here?

I dare say a lot of refugees don't exactly have the time or ability to access their local post office to go through the application process. Their lives could be in serious danger and going through legitimate channels is simply not an option. There's just so many variables to this, which is why they need to be subjected to due process. However, I don't think it's right we should immediately assume that they've done something wrong or mean malice by coming here.

This is one theory I have. In Melbourne, the vast majority of immigrants are given accommodation in the numerous housing commission flats that are dotted around the inner city. Some are in very popular areas such as Brunswick st, Chappel St, Smith St, Richmond, St Kilda. Now this puts them in the community, with everyone else. They shop at the same supermarkets, they drink at the same pubs, they're thrust straight into Melbourne life.

In Syndey, it almost seems as though they're just chucked out to the outer and western suburbs, segregated from the rest of the community. This will only ever lead to a feeling of alienation from the communities who lived there, and this leads to social problems.

I'm not saying Melbourne doesn't have problems, but you sure as hell hear a lot more about Sydney's social problems than you do Melbourne's. And I lived in Canberra and Brisbane, so it's not just Melbourne media bias I'm basing this off.

I tried having a dig at the Australian Buero of Statistic web site to see the difference between Syndey's and Melbourne Muslim population, but I found it hard to try and dig anything up. But I dare say that Melbourne still has a very sizable Muslim population, and I have in fact seen a number of community Mosques around Collingwood and Carlton.

The general vibe I've felt here is that people are generally at ease and accepting of our Muslim communities, and why the hell not?

I'm reminded off all the empty rhetoric years ago when everyone said Asian communities were going to be a problem, and so far the Asian communities in this country have contributed and fit in quite well I believe.

A good point to be sure, but I'll move back to my other point that they probably expect to be treated fairly and humanely while in detention.


I think this is a good healthy discussion as we both seem to be coming at this from apposing sides. You've made me really consider my answers and not just react with emotion (which I do a lot sometimes ).

I will not deny that there are very obvious social problems in the country. And that there is an increasing divide with our Muslim brothers and sisters because of events on the world stage. But is having dick heads like Alan Jones recklessly shooting their mouth off knowing full well how it will effect public opinion going to make it any better? I dare say it's only going to drive the wedge further.

One thing is certain though, we're all in this together one way or the other. We can either do something constructive to bridge the divide, or we can let the situation worsen.

I'm sick of governments leaving this issue, especially regarding immigration, on the back burner while they focus all their attention on letting big business take over, and being obsessed with economic health. This country is going to face some tough social challenges in the next few years, and I just hope our politicians can make the right call. This country has usually had a good history with tolerance and acceptance, and to me it just seems as though that is being stripped away.

I guess we'll just have to see what transpires.

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dlish

finally! a thread without the C_ _ _ _ word in here! good god!

on a serious note, glad to see this place back in action with some decent conversations! i would love to contribute, but sadly im late for dinner.. but ill definately be posting. both of you have valid points, which id love to elaborate on further.

cheers guys

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Meridae'n

I'm off to bed MF, will answer your post after my Cornflakes... and check your private messages!

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What's easier to believe: that a guy was born without sex in the manner of several Greek demigods and grew up to be able to transmute liquids and alter his body density yet couldn't escape government execution, or that three freemasons in a vehicle made with aluminum foil in an era before digital technology escaped our atmosphere, landing on the moon, broadcasted from there, and then flew back without burning up?