highthief

More casualties, and it seems as though some people across the nation want out.

I've always supported the action in Afghanistan (though not Iraq) because that was the source, in the most concrete way, of 9/11 in the backing and shelter provided for Al-Qaeda. The Taliban had to go and once that was done, the coalition had to bring some stability to the country.

I still support the action there, but am concerned that, as with Iraq, there really is no plan to end the fighting and truly take control of the country.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Charlatan

I too support this action.

I too share your concerns that there is no plan. We are serving two roles there. We are helping to rebuild and we are helping to fight a war. I fear that there is a confusion between the two goals.

Ultimately there is no way to take over Afghanistan. Replelling invading armies is a national passtime. Sure we can secure the cities (by and large). But beyond the city limits is not possible unless there is a radical change in the fundamentals of their nation.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

james t kirk

The dying will continue.

This is just the start I can assure you.

There is one major difference (I hope) when you compare the Canadian action in Afghanistan to the American war in Iraq.

I would guess that the second the Army asked the Canadian Government to come home, they would send the planes over. (Unlike Iraq where the Bush Administration won't care what the military asks for.)

So, it's up to Hillier and his officers to decide.

If they want to stay there because they feel that they are doing good and making a difference then I support them.

If they decide that they have had enough and it's not worth it and they want to come home, then home it shall be.

It's up to the military.

One thing though, Layton is going to be having a field day with this one next week. (God, I despise that guy.)

BigBen

We are doing good there. A lot of good.

The CF knew the risks when we transferred the base from Kabul to Kandahar. It is a different environment, and we need to realize that.

It will take decades to change that country for the better, and to pull out when the going gets tough will only worsen things.

My thoughts go out to the families of the soldiers over there, and I hope that the work we have done so far will not be in vain.

As for the military asking to come home, I agree that the politicians would send the planes over to pick them up. I also think that action would go against the Canadian military ethos. We don't run when we get into it. We stay and sort things out. If the Brass in Ottawa ever ask to come home before peace and a stable government is established in Afghanistan, it will be the worst disgrace in Canadian Military history.

It's a tough job, and all the Tim Horton's coffee in the world won't change the environment over there. It will take the sweat (and blood) of the men and women in uniform.

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3.141592654
Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

Ace_O_Spades

I would be disappointed with our troops if they came home because it was getting too rough

Canadian military is about being the hardest mofo's on the battlefield, making your enemies REMEMBER fighting against Canadians. It was like that in WWII, it should be like that now.

I fully support our action in Afghanistan. If we pack up and leave, that's one step closer to the warlords taking control of the country through fear and subversion.

That being said, what needs to be the emphasis is the building of a credible POLICING force. The army is traditionally not effective, perceived or otherwise, at policing. The role confusion between policing/defense is a major source of conflict in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

So in summary, I guess I should say I support our troops, but only in the role they're mandated for. These countries need to have some legs to prop themselves up on before we cut and run, or it will have all been for nothing.

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Feh.

Charlatan

If Harper gets a majority (heck, even if he doesn't) I don't see him bringing the troops home if the generals request it. I think he is going to turn out to be much more like the US Administration than any of us will be comfortable with...

Harper has already attempted to muzzle Hillier and control his access to the media (much in the way he has done with his own cabinet ministers). I am truly unimpressed with Harper to date.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

james t kirk

Ditto.

He's got a paranoia complex.

As strange as this might sound, he's not Brian Mulroney, who, despite being a crook (aren't they all though) at least had a personality.

streak_56

Isn't that why Harper went on the BBQ spree last summer? To show that he may have some admirable qualities and a sense of humour. I too fear that we're going to become a mini-usa government.

I think its becoming more of a misinformed leader with an informed publicist. By that I mean that Harper only wants people to ask him the questions he has answers prepared for, where as his publicist will be able to take any of the other questions.

percy

Harper has made it clear that Canada is Canada and will act in her best interests regardless of who approves or doesn't approve of it. You won't read that in any of the Toronto rags though.

As far as muzzling people, Harper doesn't hold a candle to the former government who not only muzzled people but when they were allowed to speak, it was nothing but lies.

Give the guy a chance. Afterall it was the former govt that put soldiers in Afghanistan in the first place with no exit strategy. Is that Harpers fault also?

As for the dead soldiers, their loss is unfortunate. But I don't place them on a higher level than everyday police men and women who get killed in the line of duty. They know the risks and accept them.

Want to blame someone for their deaths. Blame the Liberal Party of Canada.

Charlatan

Percy, not a single person in this thread has suggested that we pull the troops from Afghanistan, nor has anyone on this thread placed any blame on our government for the deaths of the soldiers.

I am not sure where your bitterness is coming from...

I am actually impressed with Harper on the military so far. It is the one thing in his platform that I could agree with. And so far, so good. I was amazed to see that his first visit abroad was to Afghanistan (I cannot remember a time in my life that a PM visited troops in the field -- that's almost 38 years). This attention has changed the focus of the media as well. There have been dozens of feel good items on the military and their missions.

If Harper continues with this and increases the spending as promised, I will be generally pleased.


My negaitive issues stem directly from Harper's apparent media paranoia. He is not allowing the press access to any of his ministers. He is not allowing the press access to any of the generals. All communication must stem from the PMO.

Additionally he has threatened his ministers with repercussions and potential "public humiliations" should they speak out of turn.

He has all but banished the scrum, a Canadian institution.


From where I am sitting I see the following:

1) a PM that is afraid of making mistakes... is he so unable to think on his feet that he must only appear when he is on script?
2) a PM that wants US-style interaction with his constiuents... only at press conferences and only when he controls the agenda (i.e. no questions from anyone he doesn't ask)... I am just waiting for the Bush-style speeches with cheering supporters bused in to make him look powerful.


In the end, I don't really trust him to do the right thing with Canada but will give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

percy

I understand Charlatan. Some of his media paranoia if that is what it is, is due I would have to think because of the media painting him as some scary monster that seemingly many people have bought into but can't really understand or explain why.

And I'm not bitter. There is a very distinct sense that the first screw up Harper has, he will be crucified because of the lack of common sense of those who can't think independantly for themselves and rely to heavily on what the talking heads in the media say.

I am of no party affiliation whatsoever but I'll tell you, not one thing I've seen since Harper has been PM has lent me to think he's some patsy for the Americans or that he his moving towards a U.S type govt.

If he has it in for the media good for him. They certainly had it in and to many degrees still have it in for him even before he has a chance to prove himself.

Like I said before. I wish people would give a chance before they jump on him. Everybody deserves a chance. I would hate to think half of our electorate are so ignorant as not to.

Charlatan

Don't worry, he is getting his chance. There is very little real possibility (short of his trying to do something very stupid) that he will lose the confidence of the house.

The problem with shunning the media is that the media really is our only source of information about what he is doing. If our only source for information is from carefully crafted missives from on high, that isn't going to wash for very long.

You starve the media beast from their usual sources (the scrum, the hallway outside caucus chambers, the ministers, the backbenchers, the bureaucrats, etc.) and they are going to have to dig deep and look elsewhere for their stories. Harper has to be prepared for the fact that when they find something it is more than likely going to be big (and even if it isn't they are going to play it up because they don't have much else to go on).

I think this approach is going to bite him in the ass in the long run.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

the_marq

I'm willing to give Harper and the Reform party a chance to govern...

But this... this is not up for debate.


This picture is from May 2005, but it should be from today.

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The Truth:

Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to.

#3 in a series

highthief

I agree, the flag should not be lowered in this situation.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

silent_jay

I agree totally, Harper fucked up on this one.

Also with Harper closing CFB Trenton to the media for the benefit of the families of the fallen, yet no one asked the families if they wanted this. They have to learn if they're going to speak for the families then ask the families.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

percy

I support Harpers decision to not lower the flag. If I understood properly, the flag before the last Liberals were in power was only lowered on Remembrance day and if a someone of national importance died (political figure)

At least to me, if only lowered for Remembrance Day brings a greater awareness and importance to the honour of all those who gave their lives.

As for banning the media from showing caskets of soldiers returning. Honestly I think Harper went to far with that one but in my opinion, it's a disgrace that the media is there at every turn exploiting the grieving families sorrow. I think it should be up to the immediate family to allow the media to be present or not. But good luck doing that.

But all in all this business of the flag lowering and not letting the media be there etc,etc,etc,..to me is a joke. Good Lord are there not more important issues at hand here nationally. It's terrible soldiers were lost, but going on and on only cheapens their sacrifice I think.

The Accountability Act is in full swing. Anyone hear about it? Anyone care? Victims are now going to be given stronger rights than criminals. Anyone hear about it? Anyone care? People are dying on our streets and living on heated grates in the winter time. Child poverty is at an all time high in this country. Veterans in this country are treated like shit and some have to live at poverty levels. That's the thanks they get for handing our asses over on a silver plate.

So let's spend another month debating how the flag should be flown. Honestly, if this sparks the attention of the country over anything of the multitude of some of what I've mentioned, then I truely am embarrassed for my country.

splck

Well said percy...

Leave the flag as it is and remember the fallen on Remembrance Day, as is tradition. Trying to score political points over this is disgraceful in the extreme and only cheapens the soldiers deaths, but unfortunatly, it's not unexpected.

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nice line eh?

Charlatan

Why would you be embarrassed?

We are a nation grappling with the fact that we are at war for the first time in many years. We are struggling with the fact that troops appear to be getting killed with a regularity that hasn't been the case since the Korean war.

I find this debate, any debate, about our military to be refreshing. We are finally paying attention to that which has been largely ignored for years.


As for the accountability act... I have been pay attention. Attention to the fact that Harper's act has allowed for *less* access to information.

As I said elsewhere... meet the new boss, same as the old boss.


As for all of the other issues you have listed... they are not completely ignored. My local media covers these issues on a regular basis. They just aren't this week's hot button issue.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

percy

Because it seems to me at times that the people of this country are so shallow to make issues out of a non issues. If it's not the flag, it is Stephen Harpers hairstyle. If not that, it's Paul Martins goofy grin.If not for that it is something else.

It just seems to me that real issues don't even register on the radar but silly little ditty's at times rule the day.

Maybe the concept of day to day parliamentary affairs is much too great a task for most to grasp or better, even care about.

Charlatan

I think it is a mistake to underestimate the populace...

I don't think the flag is a non-issue. I think it is currently at the core of Canada grappling with its increasingly militaristic approach to international diplomacy. We have ignored the military for quite some time. Times are changing and I believe we are seeing a shift and with that shift will come some "bumps"... the government needs to be careful in how it navigates those bumps for they and the media who interpret their actions are setting the tone of the debate.

As for making fun of Harper, Martin or any of our leaders... please. It a national passtime to take the piss out of our leaders. We do not deify our leadership like some nations do. Seeing Chretien have a burger with Rick Mercer, Trudeau pirouette behind the Queen of England, putting mittens with strings on Joe Clark, mocking Harper's wardrobe in Mexico... this is how we do politics in Canada. We don't like our politicians to get above their station.

I for one don't want to see this change.

As for paying attention to day to day parlimentary affairs... why should the populace pay attention everyday. They should stay aware but not neccessarily of the daily minutia... that's why we elected representatives.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

nrclark

My deepest sympathies ...

But, just lower the flag on Rememberance day.
Allow those four soldiers to be remembered the same as all of Canada's fallen hero's.

jth

The Woman that was killed this week, Nicola Goodard was a friend of mine and in fact, she was my Prom Date when we were in Highschool together. All my friends knew her, I was shocked to hear it was her. I've been away from Canada for the last year and to come back to that news is very sad. I lost touch with her when I left home.

Either way, she was a wonderful person and when I was a young man she was a good friend.

I feel bad for her loss, horrible in fact.

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"A real leader faces the music, even if he doesn't like the tune." - unknown quote

Willravel

It'd be nice to have the Canadian troops home safe in Canada. My deepest condolences with anyone effected by this news. We (the US) have made a terrible mess, and it seems that very few of our friends are cleaning it up. Speaking as one of your friendly neighbors to the South: Canada, we appreciate deeply your wanting to help, but this is a mess that we should clean up. I don't want to see any of you pay for our mistakes.

Oh, and if you could send us some plans for Universal Healthcare, we'd be very thankful....

percy

It has it's pros as well as it's cons,..but that's another thread.

highthief

While I agree the way Afghanistan has been handled has not been good (the Shrub distracted the US from Afghanistan with all his Iraqi made-up stories and sent the bulk of the troops there instead of to where the Taliban were and still are) we should, indeed, be there. Afghanistan harboured the 9/11 terrorists and their allies and would have continued to do so if not confronted.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.