Baraka_Guru

I was doing one of these ecological footprint quizzes (Ecological Footprint Quiz by Redefining Progress), and I noticed how big a role our food habits play in the equation. Where you buy your food and how much you eat are important factors, but one of the bigger factors was how much meat you consume. They stated that meat production accounts for as much as 18% of greenhouse gasses. That's a biggie. The options on the quiz were interesting. They varied from vegan & vegetarian to omnivore, "carnivore," and "top of the food chain." "Carnivore" suggests that you eat a lot of meat, but "top of the food chain" means you eat meat at every meal. Do people really eat that much? Anyway, I find it interesting how there is a lot of talk about the damage to the environment that is caused by automobiles, power inefficiency at work and in our homes, and our general shopping habits, yet when we talk about food, it's usually about locality rather than the makeup of our diet.

Animal rights and related ethics aside, one of the quickest and most effective ways to reduce your ecological footprint is to eat more legumes, grains, fruits, and vegetables and less meat. It's that simple. It's one of the reasons why I want to be fully vegan. Even the production of dairy and eggs has a significant environmental impact.

How far would you consider going to change your diet for ecological reasons?

What do you think of this method of being environmentally friendly?

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snowy

I really try to limit my meat intake for a variety of reasons. I eat meat maybe once a week, if that. For one, I live with a vegetarian, so I don't cook meat at home (except when we have people over to barbeque in the summer). For two, meat is expensive. For three, I cannot eat meat without thinking of the system that produces it, and the problems within that system, both environmental and otherwise. My SO is a vegetarian largely for the environmental reasons.

I do eat eggs and dairy, but I try to choose local, humane options. The closer to my home it is, the less fuel it takes to get here. I like to choose producers (and this is true of meat as well, when I do eat it) where it would be totally feasible for me to go and see where my food comes from, to see how the animal is treated, and to see what steps they are taking to be environmentally friendly. Generally, in my part of the world, smaller producers think about those issues. I avoid mass-produced eggs, milk, cheese, and meat. In choosing other dairy products, I often try to find locally-produced options. Even my ice cream is produced less than an hour away! The one exception is my sour cream, which is produced in Texas, with Texan milk. It's the only sour cream I'm found that doesn't have any thickeners or food additives--all of the local options have additives (and therefore are food products, not food).

But if there is meat that has been raised with a conscience available for me to eat, I will eat it. It's just too darn tasty to resist! Plus, I think animals who have been treated and fed well taste a lot better than those who haven't. Additionally, I would like to support the alternative system of locally-grown, humanely-raised meat available in my community. I do my best to keep as much of my food money in my local community as possible.

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Baraka_Guru

You're making some good choices, snowy! I should point out that I didn't want to take transportation out of the equation entirely; I merely wanted people to think about their intake in general. It looks like you have an excellent balance, especially how you go out of your way (ironic, isn't it?) to purchase products from local producers rather than the offerings at supermarkets. It should be noted that consuming locally produced meat is far better than the double whammy of consuming meat (costly to produce) that has come from afar (costly to transport).

Is the food you get generally organic?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

snowy

We go for organic eggs, but not organic milk--none of the local dairies are organic, though they are all rBST-free. The milk we usually get comes from a herd that is fed all-vegetarian feed, and they aren't given preventative antibiotics.

I generally try to buy organic when purchasing other foods, but that's not hard. It's also not hard to buy food that is produced locally--I live two blocks from the food co-op, and they have a special program wherein everything produced within a six-county block (with my county at the center) is labeled with a special Local Six label:

Local Six Campaign

We pay a little more $ for local, organic food, but we save so much money by not eating meat at home that it more than compensates.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Willravel

I've stopped eating beef and I've reduced my intake of pork, but I still eat plenty of poultry and fish. And I'm aware of how badly many chickens and turkeys are treated. I'm aware of how, because they're forced to live in their own filth, they're pumped full of antibiotics. They're surrounded by other dead birds. It's hell, I would imagine. This is why I ALWAYS buy free range, and I always buy certified organic. They're outside and they get decent food. This doesn't speak to the manner of death, which I don't like, but short of doing months of research or driving directly to a farm, it may be the best I can do for now.

I'm not familiar with the circumstances of the fish, though. I should probably do more research.

SecretMethod70

This is very relevant to the discussion here.


I try to limit my meat intake, though I must admit my current lifestyle doesn't leave as much room as I'd like to be picky about what I eat.

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Frosstbyte

Top of the food chain, here. My wife and I really love meat of all sorts. We eat a lot of it, mostly fish and pork, and we eat at restaurants a lot, so it's kind of hard to police exactly the source of the meat that we're eating. When I buy from the grocery store, though, I try to get organic and free range products.

I think it's as good a method as any other to reduce your footprint, but I choose to try to reduce mine in other ways-taking public transportation, using energy around the house as frugally as possible, etc.

Jinn

Top of the food chain, and I don't plan to modify my diet for 'ecological' reasons.

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Baraka_Guru

Thanks for posting this. Bittman gives an excellent presentation that offers a suitable context to this thread. He talks about the very things I was getting at. Everyone would do well to watch this before gathering their thoughts to post here.

* * *

Will, as Bittman points out, farmed fish have an issue in regards to terrible conditions. This is why most health advocates will suggest things such as wild Pacific salmon over anything else. Also, Will, did you choose to reduce beef and pork for health reasons or ecological reasons or both? Between the two of them, they have the greatest ecological impact in regard to their production.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

World's King

I'll eat anything.

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Willravel

So wild fish > farmed. That makes sense, as it's the case with pretty much everything else. Of course now mad deer is starting to spread in the wild, but that's a different conversation.
Yes, the footprint is difficult to excuse, but it is also a health issue. We as a nation eat more beef than what's healthy, and the beef we get really isn't that good. Like other animals, the cattle are given growth hormones and the like, and they're fed hay instead of grass. If you ever get the opportunity, try beef from outside of the US. Many places feed the cattle grass (and don't give them artificial growth hormones), which makes the meat taste more substantial, more real. It's also leaner, which makes it healthier. As for pork, the conditions are bad and the footprint really isn't excusable.

RogueGypsy

Interesting topic, I eat meat at least one meal a day. Pork, beef, lamb, fish and some poultry. I try to stay away from any chicken I haven't seen raised. 'Produced' Chickens go from egg to frying pan in 30 days, that's just unnatural. I buy everything I can locally, more for the freshness and knowing where it came from than anything else.

I try to avoid the hype surrounding the 'living greener' movement flourishing today. Yes I do what I can to live in harmony with the planet, but I don't consume goods based on marketing. It may interest some to know that the term 'free range' has no real significant meaning. The FDA defines 'free range' as "having access to the outdoors" and that's ONLY for Chickens. There's no definition or regulation to certify anything else as 'free range'. So while most of use had visions of happy chickens, pigs, cows and goats frolicking in open fields with the sun on the their backs and fresh air to breath. It simply isn't true. It's a marketing strategy to sell the same product we've consumed for years at a higher price. There are producers that do allow their animals to range freely, but it's unlikely these will be found on grocery store shelves. Meat markets, delis and specialty stores, yes, but not the super market. The easiest way to find them is the classifieds in your local paper.

I can only suggest, it may benefit us all to look a little deeper into an issue to find an answer.

Cattle and methane were being talked about long before Gore and his merry band of idiots coined the phrase 'Global Warming'. There has been a power plant in Fort Morgan, Co. running on nothing but cow pie since the late '70s, if memory serves. That, is a good use of resources.

To me the answers lie in personal responsibility. Cattle production is causing some serious problems, but it's not the cows fault, it's ours. South America is being deforested to open lands for cattle grazing, grass lands are being destroyed due to over grazing, streams and ground water are being polluted with nitrates, that create algae blooms and consume all the oxygen in the water killing everything else. That is our fault, the consumer and the producer. But personal responsibility would suggest that maybe the producer should just say 'no' to his greed. After all, I don't think the cows or the consumers are going to hold a gun to his head and force him to raise more cattle. That's his greed doing that. There are options, we just need to implement them. Vegans, don't think you're off the hook. The second largest producer of Nitrates is agriculture.

Everything we do on this planet effects the balance. The answer is to keep the balance close. Eat a cow, plant a tree. Rotate crop lands, use nature instead of chemicals, buy local, live in harmony. The equation really isn't that complex until we add greed.

Personally, if steak was $30/lb, I'd eat less steak and probably be healthier. If veggies were $30/lb, I'd plant a bigger garden. I believe, as a society, we've just become too lazy (or should I say convenienced) and Dependant upon others for our own welfare causing the imbalance we now seek to correct. Being more self sufficient can only help.

While it was not my intent to climb up on the soap box and start preaching, it appears I've done just that. I appreciate your tolerance. It strikes a deep nerve when I see one group trying to impose their lifestyle choices on others. The media and mass marketing have struck again!

So, all I have left to say is: SAVE A TREE, EAT A BEAVER!


Brock




...

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highthief

Pure, unadulterated meat-eater here.

I have no real input on whether what BG suggests is a good method for improving the environment, but we do tend to eat free range chickens and eggs, and have removed veal from the diet, for the sake of the wee beasties.

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powerclown

As hard as I try (cough) I can't resist a big, fat juicy cheeseburger, slab of ribs or corned beef sandwich. I can't imagine life without meat to eat. I admire the willpower and self discipline of vegetarians, and I have to admit there are some Indian restaurants around here that serve delicious vegetable dishes such as aloo palak (lentil based) or aloo mutter (spinach based, with chunks of potatoes).

SecretMethod70

Hey now, I love meat too. It tastes yummy. One doesn't have to be a vegetarian to eat healthier food that also happens to be better for the environment. It simply means having a meat entree one or two nights a week instead of 5 or 6, and going from there.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Bear Cub

I would eat meat at every meal if I had the chance. Unfortunately, single guy paying bills budget often results in a steady diet of mac and cheese, sans the prime rib.

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powerclown

Meat 1 or 2 nights a week?...easier said than done. I don't know how you people do it.

guyy

Well, i cook for a family. I probably wouldn't cook meat at all were it up to me. The number one reason is that most affordable meat really sucks. Chicken doesn't taste like chicken anymore. And the same is true of other mass-produced meats. Price is another reason. Then there's health, digestive reasons, and ecological reasons, which for me are further down the list of concerns. Then again, if the Depression gets any worse, i might have to start hunting the turkeys across the road. Turkey soup. (Did anyone consider this as a reason for the increase in gun purchases?)

The kids are pretty flexible, but Papa wants meat at least 5 nights a week. Meme usually buys it from local farmers. I don't agree with the way she does it (buys a lot and freezes it), but they're the elders. Freezing is one way to increase the ecological footprint of your diet.

CinnamonGirl

Well, I had a reply, but I spent too much time on it, and got logged out, then it disappeared. Which is probably good, since I started to ramble

Anyway, the main point was that I'm vegetarian. I don't eat eggs, but I do consume some dairy. If I had to rank the reasons why, I'd say: 1) health, 2) environment, and 3) animal welfare.

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Charlatan

As I started reading this thread I was going to contribute the Bittman TED talk... Glad to see it made its way here.

I still eat meat but I like to think of myself as an omnivore. I look for a balance. The industrial production of meat is not only bad for the environment (methane is way worse than CO2) it is cruel to the animals (cows were not meant to be raised on corn for example and the comment about the short life of chickens is valid as well).

I think we all need to spend more time thinking about where our food comes from and at what cost. There are negative externalities that most don't even think about when ringing up their groceries at the checkout.

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Baraka_Guru

You mean the 24-hour supermarket with competitive prices that's a 5-minute walk from my place?

I'm also interested in the front-end cost of producing meat: 7 pounds of corn and soy are required to produce a pound of pork. Now you could imagine how this would scale to other animals. Generally, a pound of meat of any kind requires grain factors of several times to produce it. (Chicken meat requires less, cow meat requires more.) And then you look at the water required. I've seen varying figures, but we're talking at least over 100 gallons of water for just one pound of meat. And then you factor in the water requirement for growing the food the animals eat.

That's a lot of grain and water. I can see why many farmers use corn, soy, and hay to feed their animals. It would explain why we have so many hay, soy, and corn farms growing crops for livestock compared to farms growing crops for human consumption.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

streak_56

[QUOTE=Charlatan;2575099]

I still eat meat but I like to think of myself as an omnivore. QUOTE]

I try to balance it out or tip the scales in veggies, and food tastes better if its "au naturel" such a difference between the two.

Not Right Now

I spent 4 years as a vegan. I plan on returning to my old ways at some point, but for now living such an active lifestyle I found that I had to double my intake just to have energy to carry through the day. On average now I eat meat about twice a week at this point. I still use soy and tofu products in my diet and I still use rice based protein in my protein shakes in the mornings.

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QuasiMondo

Cow, pigs, chicken.....


I'm getting hungry just thinking about it.

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lagoonguy

i have a vegetarian friend who is a fantastic cook, and she's cooked me some dinners that were delicious.... but, meat taste so good! Mmm Mmm! If we got into crisis mode i'm sure i could live off of beans and lettuce or whatever, but i love my chicken... it's mostly chicken for me, with occasional beef and fish. But i think seldom a day goes by without eating a meat product.

Lindy

I eat meat nearly every meal. Mostly beef, fish, and pork. I don't care for chicken, but do eat it occasionally. I love pheasant, (watch out for the shot) turkey, duck and buffalo. If meat is not in the meal, eggs or cheese usually are. I follow a high protein and low carb (paleolithic diet) lifestyle. I don't pay much attention to the amount of fat, but do avoid hydrogenated oils and other transfats like the plague they are.

I eat salad veggies, broccoli, cabbage, squash, mushrooms, etc. I love berries, grapes, nuts, and cantaloupe. I avoid potatoes, wheat, corn, rice and other high starch agricultural products. I avoid high fructose corn sweetener in particular, and sugar in general.
I am a proud carnivore, and I'm healthy as a horse.
This is the diet that humans, over 4 million years, evolved (Happy 200th, Charles Darwin!) to eat . That is 200,000 generations.
Agriculture has only been around for a few hundred generations. Whether we like it or not even the vegans among us genetically ARE carnivores.
As far as "footprint" goes, the problem is not in the size of our footprints, it is in the number of them. In other words, there's too many of us. And for that we can thank agriculture.

Lindy

Baraka_Guru

You probably should make sure you're not eating as homo erectus likely did.

I'm pretty sure the paleolithic diet featured tubers and seeds. That would allow potatoes, I guess. (Sweet potatoes are king.) Do you eat seeds?

That's impossible, because you're an omnivore.

Homo sapiens have been traced back only as far as the late paleolithic era. A distinct difference between us and other forms of humans is our brain size. The larger brain that we have has a large glucose and fat demand, which is why carbohydrates and healthy fats are important to our diet.

The vegans are also omnivores, just like you. They are able to subsist on plant-based foods exclusively, and many of them are healthier than a lot of North American "carnivores." Far too many cases of heart disease and certain cancers can be largely attributed to imbalances in the diet related to a high proportion of animal food consumption.

In labs and in studies, several agricultural foods have proven to be beneficial to a number of functions within the human body. As I've pointed out, evidence shows that tubers were featured even in the paleolithic diet. The consumption of legumes and whole grains has played a pivotal role in the transition from paleolithic to neolithic society. It allowed for the food security of essential plant materials needed for growing energy demands for both the brain and the rest of the body. This is why many consider the advent of agriculture the greatest event in human history.

That's one way to look at it. Personally, I like to see human evolution as an ongoing process. And if it requires us to shift our dietary habits (as omnivorous generalists are wont to do) to something more responsible (and, frankly, healthier for the most part), then I see it as the way to go. The human body does not require meat and/or dairy for every meal.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot