[SPOILERS!!] The Matrix Reloaded: Who's seen it and what did you think? - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Bonesaw · 05-19-2003, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shokan
http://www.corporatemofo.com/stories/051803matrix.htm

Thats a good article about the religious overtones of the Matrix. Well worth the read.

Great article. Thanks for posting the link.

denim · 05-19-2003, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lasereth
Hell, all other life besides those main characters (and the agents) simply didn't exist in the plot in the first Matrix. This resulted in the main characters being very close to relate to and very easy to analyze.

I think you're being rather simplistic about it, actually.

Quote:

When we see Neo and Trinity in Zion, it just doesn't seem right. Why? Because we are used to seeing them in the grungy-ass Nebuchadnezzar or fighting in the Matrix.

No. What doesn't seem right about them is that suddenly they've got all the matrix stigmata (holes in arms and back and such) back, which they'd spent time in the first movie showing being removed. That's unexplained.

What I think you're talking about is how the focus in this movie is a bit different. That's true, it is. I don't see that as an innate problem.

However, what it looks like to me is that people were wowed over the fighting scenes in the first movie, so they went overboard with fighting scenes in this movie. It does get boring after a while, IMHO.

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The real killer was seeing OTHER people in the Matrix and in Zion besides our beloved main characters from the first one.

That may be a problem for some people, but I found it reassuring: they're not alone, the people working with them are GOOD, and they are supported. Now that Zion is apparently destroyed, I look forward to the impact of the change.

denim · 05-19-2003, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shokan
Anyone have thoughts on this?

I think that scene was the only reason the movie was rated R, and that it could have been deleted w/o losing much of anything. It's not like they actually showed anything, anyway.

I mean, do you really need to see them fucking to get the idea that they're passionate about each other? I don't. They'd settled that fairly early in the movie with spoken lines, IMHO.

denim · 05-19-2003, 06:49 AM

Note that white space generally makes a post easier to read.

Quote:

Originally posted by oldtimer
Now in Reloaded he sends Neo the spoon as if he will understand why. Is it a gift or maybe something more?

It's a reminder. That seems fairly clear.

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Being that Neo already being the "One" merged some of that data into Smith while Smith might have also gave Neo some "system" or "matrix" data that allows him to do what he can do. Ex: Flying, but it may not be limited to only that.

Neo was The One before merging into Smith, yes. If he'd tried flying before merging, he'd have been able to do it.

The thing about Neo flying is that it's a Hollywood-ism. It seems to me that a "real" Neo would instantaneously change locations instead. It'd be more efficient.

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As we see, the two different kinds of Agents never work together. So indeed Smith may be an asset to Revolutions.

Maybe, or the reverse. It might be that the main Matrix entity may have Smith as an enemy. Given the trailer at the end of movie 2, I see this as verified.

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Now obviously someone will say that since he is a code or program he can not fuse with the human brain but how can we rule this out after seeing Neo carry his hairstyle back and forth through the Matrix.

You really should read Snow Crash.

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So Neo did in fact make the right choice by choosing to save Trinity because I assume no "One" before him attempted to do so (choose the door back to the Matrix). For this change, you have to expect an opposite outcome. The end of the Matrix.

She did "die", as expected, but Neo brought her back, which is an option the Architect didn't cover. Doesn't mean it didn't happen before; just means the Architect didn't see fit to mention it. Keep in mind that the Architect was not necessarily limited to the truth, as one way of lying is to tell only part of the truth.

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But it was on 500 mini Tv's

Note that we've seen those TVs before, in the first movie. What does that tell you?

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whenever the hero is told the truth.

Dangerous assumption, that.

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One stands out and speaks. So the other monitors were not really showing seperate worlds or more Matrix's nor Neo's true feelings. I'll leave this one open many answers.

Exactly.

denim · 05-19-2003, 07:09 AM

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Originally posted by Bonesaw
Great article. Thanks for posting the link.

I see one problem with his analysis: the Old Testament is more than the Five Books of Moses. It also includes many prophets and such.

Lasereth · 05-19-2003, 08:02 AM

Quote:

No. What doesn't seem right about them is that suddenly they've got all the matrix stigmata (holes in arms and back and such) back, which they'd spent time in the first movie showing being removed. That's unexplained.

What? In the first one, everyone that was unplugged from the Matrix had holes. The only people that didn't were the naturally born people like Tank and Dozer. Get your facts straight, they weren't removed in the first one.

-Lasereth

dragonhawk · 05-19-2003, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by denim
I think that scene was the only reason the movie was rated R, and that it could have been deleted w/o losing much of anything. It's not like they actually showed anything, anyway.

I mean, do you really need to see them fucking to get the idea that they're passionate about each other? I don't. They'd settled that fairly early in the movie with spoken lines, IMHO.

They used the F word a lot, which also gets an R rating.

I think that Trinity is pregnant. Watch the scene when Neo is bringing her back. There is a little glow in her abdomen area.

Oh, and Trinity has to get over the "Your The One, I they need you, I can wait" crap.

wondash · 05-19-2003, 09:23 AM

I saw it for a second time this weekend and liked it even more than the first! Instead of trying to focus on the story, I just sat back and enjoyed the ride! I did notice something that may support the "Matrix in a Matrix" theory; During the opening title sequence it looked like the green matrix imagery formed the shape of Zion. Can anyone else confirm this?

denim · 05-19-2003, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lasereth
What? In the first one, everyone that was unplugged from the Matrix had holes. The only people that didn't were the naturally born people like Tank and Dozer. Get your facts straight, they weren't removed in the first one.

They had them in their necks, but no place else, as I recall.

denim · 05-19-2003, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dragonhawk
They used the F word a lot, which also gets an R rating.

Ah. I didn't really notice that.

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Oh, and Trinity has to get over the "Your The One, I they need you, I can wait" crap.

Maybe. I don't know what it's like to be married to a famous person, for instance.

diergray · 05-19-2003, 12:51 PM

A friend of mine came up with another intersting twist. When the women kisses Neo why couldn't she have infected him with some code much like Neo infected Agent Smith. Perhaps that is how he is now able to effect machines outside of the Matrix.

FuddMan · 05-19-2003, 02:53 PM

What are your interpretations on the various emotional expressions by Neo on the architects TVs? Is it showing variety and unpredictability in humanity or "One"s before him. There might have been a whole hell of a lot of "One"s.

GoldenOuroboros · 05-19-2003, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FuddMan
What are your interpretations on the various emotional expressions by Neo on the architects TVs? Is it showing variety and unpredictability in humanity or "One"s before him. There might have been a whole hell of a lot of "One"s.

The TV's are possible calculated emotional outcomes...

I think

teflonian · 05-19-2003, 07:17 PM

I like how the discussion this far down has transferred from "I hate it" or "I love it" to more nit picking type of analysis as to the meanings of the movie. Unfotunately, I am going to chime in with an "I love it" type of comment. I honestly do not see what anyone has to complain about in this movie. It has everything anybody could ever want. Or maybe that anybody is just me and those like me, but still... For every "it boored me" type of response to the movie, I can't help but think of old jaded ladies complaining about the number of stairs to reach the viewing platform of the grand canyon. Sure there were a lot of steps, sure some of them were in disrepair, sure an escalator would have been a quicker way to the top, but... What you are looking at is the grand canyon and it is a perfect spring day with a mild breeze and clear skies and !!!!
I guess my point is that the movie was great and people fueled with their own opinions of how the second movie SHOULD have been aren't appreciating the movie for what it is. Anyway, back to the more appreciated worthwhile analysis I hope.

Ganguro · 05-20-2003, 05:37 AM

okay.. i just saw wthe movie last night.. Here are my (and Peutetre's) thoughts
We agree on the whole "second matrix" thing..
actually we think of it as a multidimentional array.
The matrix is an array within an array.

Also we think Neo may be a program. Specificly.. we think he may be a manifestation of error handling, or an "garbage collector".
When the oracle is talking about "ghosts, aliens, werewolves and vampires.." being programs doing stuff they arent supposed to be doing and they get a choice to shut down and exile themselves or get destroyed/ assimilated into the sources.. we think that may specificly alluding to Neo's role in the whole thing. Perhaps Zion is that exile? Perhaps Neo being the anomaly and all his powers stem from him being a conglomoration of errors in the programming. The Matrix keeps running him through the program trying to correct these errors over and over again until it's rate of failure is minimal. That is what the architect says that they have done this 5(or 6?) times previously. Theoreticly he's stuck in a "Do Until" loop.

Realizm · 05-20-2003, 06:40 AM

edit: Much true about the TVs being the same as in the original...

Interesting thought about Monica infecting Neo, I had thought that myself as I watched it if only because of the little "matrix sound" that you hear as they kiss... The Same sound you hear as the matrix is changing something the digitized rain.

denim · 05-20-2003, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ganguro
Also we think Neo may be a program. Specificly.. we think he may be a manifestation of error handling, or an "garbage collector".

I think you've got something there. Of course, if you do and he's another program, it kinda assumes that the "real world" is either another Matrix, or another part of the regular Matrix. That is, that they still don't have a way out.

If you think you've escaped, you stop trying to escape. And we've already seen that the machines can fool a human into thinking they're not in an emulation. Most people in the Matrix are like that, yes?

For all we know, they might not even be on Earth. Maybe they're planetary colonists in transit, and don't know it.

oldtimer · 05-26-2003, 10:08 AM

Yeah, denim, fixed that dizziness you'd get after trying to read my post. Much clearer now. Finally, thanks for someone remarking on my post, always like to hear how other people think.

nightmare · 05-26-2003, 05:25 PM

i just liked going in and watching the action and having my mind fucked with at the same time

Gortexfogg · 05-28-2003, 02:47 PM

The Architect talked about how they had the first "perfect"matrix, then they had to reset it. Then the next one wasn't right, so they did it again. Will the Architect ever construct an ideal matrix that won't have to be restarted every so often? Or, like said in the film, will there always be that remainder left after the calculations which is the One?

Oh, and this was one awesome movie, no matter what anyone says.

CSflim · 06-02-2003, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by denim
I think you've got something there. Of course, if you do and he's another program, it kinda assumes that the "real world" is either another Matrix, or another part of the regular Matrix. That is, that they still don't have a way out.

Maybe not necessarily. It is possible that neo is in fact not human, but a program, but the "Zion World" is not another Matrix. If Agent Smoth can "download" himself into a human brain, then Neo, could be a program living inside a human body.

Perhaps I'm clutching at staws here.

Neo destoying the squidies really shocked me, and I can see the feeling is shared by many. As a result of this, we are left with, as far as I can see, two possibilities:

Neo has super powers outside of the matrix. I really hope this is not true, and I really doubt it will be.

The Matirx within a Matrix idea. I really hate this idea too...reminds me far too much of the terrible, terrible eXistenZ (sp?). God that film was awful! However this idea seems to be the most likely "answer" that we will recieve with Revolutions.

Another slightly far-fetched possibility follows the Neo is a program logic, which can run concurrently within the matrix and within Neo's brain, so the program inside the Matrix destroyed the squidies (which are presumably also connected to the Matrix in some form). Of course for this to work it would require either some form of communication between the biological program and the digital program, or else it would require really streching the whole predeterminism thing.

Quote:

Originally posted by Realizm
Some thoughts I had that seemed to be a bit conflicting.. in the scene where he is fight Meru's group, and he bleeds, Meru tells them he's just a man using the blood as an example.

Fast forward. Keymaker gets shot, bleeds. I thought Keymaker was a program, so why would he be bleeding?

The programs are talking the form of people, and so bleed like all people would. The point he was making about Neo bleeding is that despite his super speed abilites, and is inhuman strength and his ability to fly....he is still just a human, and can be killed, if only they can get a blow in...which they do....except its only a graze.

Sun Tzu · 06-02-2003, 11:25 PM

This is something I mentioned in the other Matrix post:
I was confused when the architect mentioned Zion had happened before. With Neos predicators before him eliminating Zion except for a few. After hearing what other s thought about the Matrix within a Matrix it started to give me this impression-

The architect stated the Matrix was running efficiently; post the perfect world that didn’t take. But as with any computer for various reasons anomalies happen. Kind of like when you don’t defrag you hard drive shit starts happening. Zion could be a cache of “anomalies” or weaknesses in the Matrix from lack of maintenance with people awakening whether in physical or mental form doesn’t matter. As the cache becomes full or even dangerous to the machines an entity like neo representing a trusted savior unknowingly clears the cache, defrags the fragmented beings, or in other words destroys Zion. Just as the architect stated has been done numerous times before. The Matrix within the Matrix explains Neos ability to destroy the sentinels.

It also seems like the Oracle is trying to tell him that’s its her purpose to guide him there, and also stating and emphasizing the everything has a purpose; Neos purpose is also laid out. It doesn’t make her evil just is how her program runs.

The fact that Neo may have done something unexpected like collide with another program “Smith” could have caused a Smith virus; that’s how he is multiplying. It also would explain that since they are still in the Matrix how he is in the guy at the end. It’s obvious he has his own agenda, much like a virus.

If this is the case my big question is this; picking a time like the 90s the machines should know that humans will continue to progress; leaving a need for a Zion cache; but why not pick a simpler time when people aren’t going to give as much of a problem. Like say the middle ages? If energy is the central focus.

cartmen34 · 06-03-2003, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Realizm
edit: Much true about the TVs being the same as in the original...

Interesting thought about Monica infecting Neo, I had thought that myself as I watched it if only because of the little "matrix sound" that you hear as they kiss... The Same sound you hear as the matrix is changing something the digitized rain.

I find it interesting that she put lipstick on just before they kissed Just like applying poison before the fatal kiss of death, right? I was sort of suprised that Neo didn't get "sick" or something like that after the kiss.

oldtimer · 06-04-2003, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CSflim
Maybe not necessarily. It is possible that neo is in fact not human, but a program, but the "Zion World" is not another Matrix. If Agent Smoth can "download" himself into a human brain, then Neo, could be a program living inside a human body.

Neo destoying the squidies really shocked me, and I can see the feeling is shared by many. As a result of this, we are left with, as far as I can see, two possibilities:

Neo has super powers outside of the matrix. I really hope this is not true, and I really doubt it will be.

The Matirx within a Matrix idea. I really hate this idea too...reminds me far too much of the terrible, terrible eXistenZ (sp?). God that film was awful! However this idea seems to be the most likely "answer" that we will recieve with Revolutions.

The programs are talking the form of people, and so bleed like all people would. The point he was making about Neo bleeding is that despite his super speed abilites, and is inhuman strength and his ability to fly....he is still just a human, and can be killed, if only they can get a blow in...which they do....except its only a graze.

Like your ideas on this. I agree with hating the matrix inside a matrix theory. Too complicated, especially for the poeple who don't follow the matrix closely and just want the special effects they will quickly be lost in the plot.

Yeah, if Neo has powers outside the Matrix that will be a letdown unless they can find a clever way of integrating that into the film, which I doubt they can do but they can, can't they?

CSflim · 06-04-2003, 12:15 PM

The Architect's speech if anyone is interested:

Quote:

The Architect - Hello, Neo.

Neo - Who are you?

The Architect - I am the Architect. I created the
matrix. I've been waiting for you. You have many
questions, and although the process has altered your
consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo,
some of my answers you will understand, and some of
them you will not. Concordantly, while your first
question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not
realise it is also irrelevant.

Neo - Why am I here?

The Architect - Your life is the sum of a remainder of
an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of
the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly,
which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable
to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of
mathematical precision. While it remains a burden to
sedulously avoid it, it is not unexpected, and thus
not beyond a measure of control. Which has led you,
inexorably, here.

Neo - You haven't answered my question.

The Architect - Quite right. Interesting. That was
quicker than the others.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the
monitors: "Others? What others? How many? Answer me!"*

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I
prefer counting from the emergence of one integral
anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case
this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the
monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too.
This is *beep*."*

Neo - There are only two possible explanations: either
no one told me, or no one knows.

The Architect - Precisely. As you are undoubtedly
gathering, the anomaly's systemic, creating
fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on
the monitors: "You can't control me! F*ck you! I'm
going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

Neo - Choice. The problem is choice.

*The scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then
back to the Architect's room*

The Architect - The first matrix I designed was quite
naturally perfect, it was a work of art, flawless,
sublime. A triumph equalled only by its monumental
failure. The inevitability of its doom is as apparent
to me now as a consequence of the imperfection
inherent in every human being, thus I redesigned it
based on your history to more accurately reflect the
varying grotesqueries of your nature. However, I was
again frustrated by failure. I have since come to
understand that the answer eluded me because it
required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound
by the parameters of perfection. Thus, the answer was
stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program,
initially created to investigate certain aspects of
the human psyche. If I am the father of the matrix,
she would undoubtedly be its mother.

Neo - The Oracle.

The Architect - Please. As I was saying, she stumbled
upon a solution whereby nearly 99.9% of all test
subjects accepted the program, as long as they were
given a choice, even if they were only aware of the
choice at a near unconscious level. While this answer
functioned, it was obviously fundamentally flawed,
thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic
anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the
system itself. Ergo, those that refused the program,
while a minority, if unchecked, would constitute an
escalating probability of disaster.

Neo - This is about Zion.

The Architect - You are here because Zion is about to
be destroyed. Its every living inhabitant terminated,
its entire existence eradicated.

Neo - *beep*.

*The responses of the other Ones appear on the
monitors: "*beep*!"*

The Architect - Denial is the most predictable of all
human responses. But, rest assured, this will be the
sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become
exceedingly efficient at it.

*Scene cuts to Trinity fighting an agent, and then
back to the Architects room.*

The Architect - The function of the One is now to
return to the source, allowing a temporary
dissemination of the code you carry, reinserting the
prime program. After which you will be required to
select from the matrix 23 individuals, 16 female, 7
male, to rebuild Zion. Failure to comply with this
process will result in a cataclysmic system crash
killing everyone connected to the matrix, which
coupled with the extermination of Zion will ultimately
result in the extinction of the entire human race.

Neo - You won't let it happen, you can't. You need
human beings to survive.

The Architect - There are levels of survival we are
prepared to accept. However, the relevant issue is
whether or not you are ready to accept the
responsibility for the death of every human being in
this world.

*The Architect presses a button on a pen that he is
holding, and images of people from all over the matrix
appear on the monitors*

The Architect - It is interesting reading your
reactions. Your five predecessors were by design based
on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation
that was meant to create a profound attachment to the
rest of your species, facilitating the function of the
one. While the others experienced this in a very
general way, your experience is far more specific.
Vis-a-vis, love.

*Images of Trinity fighting the agent from Neo's dream
appear on the monitors*

Neo - Trinity.

The Architect - Apropos, she entered the matrix to
save your life at the cost of her own.

Neo - No!

The Architect - Which brings us at last to the moment
of truth, wherein the fundamental flaw is ultimately
expressed, and the anomaly revealed as both beginning,
and end. There are two doors. The door to your right
leads to the source, and the salvation of Zion. The
door to the left leads back to the matrix, to her, and
to the end of your species. As you adequately put, the
problem is choice. But we already know what you're
going to do, don't we? Already I can see the chain
reaction, the chemical precursors that signal the
onset of emotion, designed specifically to overwhelm
logic, and reason. An emotion that is already blinding
you from the simple, and obvious truth: she is going
to die, and there is nothing that you can do to stop
it.

*Neo walks to the door on his left*

The Architect - Humph. Hope, it is the quintessential
human delusion, simultaneously the source of your
greatest strength, and your greatest weakness.

Neo - If I were you, I would hope that we don't meet
again.

The Architect - We won't.

Edit: BTW it was taken from a "censored" site (imdb), hence the *beeps*!

CSflim · 06-04-2003, 01:48 PM

Being tossing Reloaded over in my mind a bit, and I have a few points to make, and a few questions to raise.

At the start of the film we see Neo and the gang pilot their ship through the tunnels and through the big metal doors of Zion, yet the Sentinels have to drill through the earth and through a layer of iron ore in order to get to Zion. Surely it would be much faster to drill through the doors, assuming that they can find them...how hard can it be?
In The Matrix (the first one) a big deal was made by the agents of the Zion Codes: Cypher betrays Morpheus to the Agents, in order for them to extract these codes from his brain. What were these codes? And have they anything to do with the Sentinel attack? Why are they no longer needed? I'm assuming that these codes are nothing to do with the Location of Zion, as from what the Architect says, they have destroyed Zion many times before...assuming it is always in the same place...it would have to be, to get the heat of the earths core. So anyone have any idea what these codes are? And why they are no longer required?
We have been led to believe that The Matrix has been built to use humans as an alternative source of energy. I previously took this as just one of those things that we had to suspend our belief over...no need to nit pick a perfectly good story...a sorta "artistic licence" if you will. But now after seeing Reloaded, I'm not too sure. The story is obviously much more in depth, and with a more complex story, you expect things to be more accurate, and are less lenient in granting this artistic licence, and allowing such an important detail to slide. now I'm starting to believe that the brothers have thought about the absurdity of Human Batteries and that Morpheus is actually incorrect in what he believes is the ultimate purpose of the Matrix. I'm hoping that Revolutions will address this, and reveal a different reason behind The Matrix.
During Neo's discussion with the Architect the walls are covered with TVs which occasionally show Neo making alternative responses to what the Architect is saying. At the time I assumed that these "other" Neo's were the previous Ones that the Architect speaks of. People in this forum interpreted this differently and saw them as the Architect's calculated prediction of what Neo's responses will be, I am unsure of this judgement, but of course my interpretation raises a rather perplexing question; did the previous Ones physically resemble Neo? and why would they? Again I'm hoping for Revolutions to clear this up.
We have previously mentioned the idea that Neo may not be a human, but he could be a program. For this to work, we would have to assume that software can be downloaded into the brain and run from there, (in a sense the opposite of jacking into the Matrix). This seems to be the case from what we have seen of Bane/Smith. Perhaps it is possible that Neo is not even Flesh and Blood at all, but is in fact a Cyborg a la The Terminator, or perhaps even a Biological machine, made out of organic material as opposed to metal. This would explain all of the Neos looking alike, if in fact they were "built" by the machines. Take this quote from the architect:

Quote:

Your five predecessors were by design based
on a similar predication, a contingent affirmation
that was meant to create a profound attachment to the
rest of your species

So Neo and his predecessors were "designed"? But earlier in the speech he refers to Neo as a human?
In a continuation of the question of allowing software to run from a brain, I pose the question, If "knowledge" is downloaded into a persons brain (e.g. how to hotwire a motorcycle) does the person have that knowledge in the real world?
In the first film Morpheus et al were terrified of the Agents. Fighting them was not an option, all they could hope to do was run! Only The One could ever hope to fight an Agent and live, yet in Reloaded it seems that Morpheus more than holds his own in a fight against an Agent in the highway chase scene...how is the possible, given the fear of the agents in the first film? Has something happened since then that we missed out, or have the brothers simply forgotten themselves? Bare in mind that these Agents are even stronger than the originals, they are updates.
Why aren't the Agents equipped with the super powers that are available to "obsolete" programs? Surely as the Matrix's main line of defence they would be given everything that was available? The Twin's have the ability to "ghost" in and out of reality, and the Vampires can only be harmed by silver bullets (The Agents can be killed with normal bullets; "Dodge This!")
Now for the big one!I'm not sure that I fully understood what the Architect meant about the choice. What is the choice...choose between what? and who makes it? Does everyone make this choice, or just one? Why does the presence of a choice change the amount of people who accept the Matrix?

My understanding of it is that at an unconscious level all people are given the choice to accept the Matrix or not, and that 99.9% of people choose to accept it, those that don't accept it wake up. This is contradictory to the first film, where people it seemed had to be woken up by others...but who woke them up? Maybe not all people had to be woken up, some just woke themselves, and then woke others? This seems unlikely...consider what would have happened to Neo, had the ship not been their to rescue him. I doubt he would have gotten his act together and built a ship, and a computer and hack the matrix and fly to Zion! I wonder what it would be like for someone to choose not to accept the Matrix on their own, and just woke up...remember...the Earth is a pretty big place!

How is the presence of a choice different from the first and second Matrices? Did they "force" people to accept the Matrix? This doesn't make sense, as surely it was people rejecting the Matrix that caused it to be such a "monumental failure"?...they rejected it, ergo they had a choice! See my confusion! Unless the "monumental failure" did not in fact entail people rejecting the Matrix as we were led to believe by Agent Smith in the first film, but it failed in some other way?

Unless of course the choice he was referring to was Neos choice between the two doors...but that makes no sense at all as to how that would make 99.9% of the people accept the Matrix!
The Architect also refers to the anomaly, which are presumably the 0.1% of people who reject The Matrix, i.e. the Zionites. He claims that these are a threat to the system, and hence must be periodically wiped out. My question is this: Why allow them to become a threat? Why not simply have a buzzsaw whirring at the bottom of the slide before escapees are dunked into the drink? Problem solved! Of course this flaw of logic was apparent in the first film...why not kill Neo and everyone else as soon as they awaken. Again this was forgiven due to the above mentioned "artistic licence" as a film with a Hero blended to mulch would not make for exciting viewing, but now with these new revelations, such silliness is unacceptable! so what's going on!?
Why is The One required in order for the system to be reset? Why can't the Architect reset it himself? Why, for that matter, does it even need to be reset? There is mention of Neo's code being assimilated into the Matrix. What good will that do?

Phew! That went on a bit longer than I expected! Anyway, I'm dieing to see Revolutions...all I'll say is that it has a lot to answer to! Any input would be greatly appreciated!

Sun Tzu · 06-04-2003, 02:01 PM

CSFilm did you find the script online? IF insanity must have made you watch it a few times to pick that up. Thanks this helps allot.

It sounds like what I was referencing. Zion is a cache. Its another Matrix, and the humans there are files that need to be defragged. By design the machines know that anomolies will happen (the lesser being the humans in Zion) for what ever reason they probaly wake or start catching on. So Neo is either created or by mathematical calculation expected; programmed or (fooled/ guided) into clearing out the cache (Zion).

Smith is anomoly unexpected. WHen Neo crossed into him some of Neos "files" crossed into SMith turning him into a virus. This is why he really is not outside of the Matrix at the end, nor does Neo's powers exsist outside of the Matix when destroying the Sentiniels because they are still inside.

Perhaps the reason they are digging, and the agents after them is part of Neos guiding/ purposful programming to have structure as to why he needs to do what he has to do.

If this is the case why, not make the Matrix in the middle ages? THe machines would still be able to harness energy with about 1/8 of the trouble they're going through in the progressive 90s where humans even if alseep would always present a threat because of progress.

I may be reading too much into it.

CSflim · 06-04-2003, 02:19 PM

No, I didn't find a script online, thought I would really like to! The Architects speech was lifted from a post on imdb.com, and where that posted got it, I'm unsure, but I got the impression that that was all he had, not the whole script.
If anyone has the whole script (or even a part of it) please post a link, as I'm sure there are plenty of us who would love to get their hands on it!

Sun Tzu · 06-04-2003, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CSflim
Being tossing Reloaded over in my mind a bit, and I have a few points to make, and a few questions to raise.

At the start of the film we see Neo and the gang pilot their ship through the tunnels and through the big metal doors of Zion, yet the Sentinels have to drill through the earth and through a layer of iron ore in order to get to Zion. Surely it would be much faster to drill through the doors, assuming that they can find them...how hard can it be?

In The Matrix (the first one) a big deal was made by the agents of the Zion Codes: Cypher betrays Morpheus to the Agents, in order for them to extract these codes from his brain. What were these codes? And have they anything to do with the Sentinel attack? Why are they no longer needed? I'm assuming that these codes are nothing to do with the Location of Zion, as from what the Architect says, they have destroyed Zion many times before...assuming it is always in the same place...it would have to be, to get the heat of the earths core. So anyone have any idea what these codes are? And why they are no longer required?


I dont know if it was done intentially or they could get the actors, but the other two agents are different. It may not even matter. THe point is Smith was a little different from the other in two inthe first one anyway. He wanted out of the Matrix. A program that acutally couldnt stand the smell? Two pissibilities that I can think of is they giving him a chas(Neo) to give him purpose or structure or Smith has already begun to change (as some programs do get corrupted) and he wants to destroy the cache (Zion) doing so he would destroy the Matrix, but possibly at the cost of the human race becoming aware because of a superconsious spill over without the cache) which still doens fully explain why Smith would want to since he obviously think humans are a virus.



We have been led to believe that The Matrix has been built to use humans as an alternative source of energy. I previously took this as just one of those things that we had to suspend our belief over...no need to nit pick a perfectly good story...a sorta "artistic licence" if you will. But now after seeing Reloaded, I'm not too sure. The story is obviously much more in depth, and with a more complex story, you expect things to be more accurate, and are less lenient in granting this artistic licence, and allowing such an important detail to slide. now I'm starting to believe that the brothers have thought about the absurdity of Human Batteries and that Morpheus is actually incorrect in what he believes is the ultimate purpose of the Matrix. I'm hoping that Revolutions will address this, and reveal a different reason behind The Matrix.


If there wasnt a Zion there would be a place for "fragmented or corrupted files" to go to. THese being the anomolies or humans that begin to catch on for whatever reason. With Zion they can collect them into a place away form the main Matrix and keep their energy source safe. Until the Cache begins to fill, at which time it need to be cleaned out. (Neo) This would still maintain the important everything that was stated in the first.


During Neo's discussion with the Architect the walls are covered with TVs which occasionally show Neo making alternative responses to what the Architect is saying. At the time I assumed that these "other" Neo's were the previous Ones that the Architect speaks of. People in this forum interpreted this differently and saw them as the Architect's calculated prediction of what Neo's responses will be, I am unsure of this judgement, but of course my interpretation raises a rather perplexing question; did the previous Ones physically resemble Neo? and why would they? Again I'm hoping for Revolutions to clear this up.

yeah even with it written out this scene goes way out there. Very confusing. I dont think the others looked like Neo because everyone would have known as sure as Morpheus; they'd know who to look for. I think they found him through his actions; hacking. THe other Neos could represent all the multiple choices the machines know he would make?


We have previously mentioned the idea that Neo may not be a human, but he could be a program. For this to work, we would have to assume that software can be downloaded into the brain and run from there, (in a sense the opposite of jacking into the Matrix). This seems to be the case from what we have seen of Bane/Smith. Perhaps it is possible that Neo is not even Flesh and Blood at all, but is in fact a Cyborg a la The Terminator, or perhaps even a Biological machine, made out of organic material as opposed to metal. This would explain all of the Neos looking alike, if in fact they were "built" by the machines. Take this quote from the architect:

So Neo and his predecessors were "designed"? But earlier in the speech he refers to Neo as a human?


Im hoping they explain this better. Its hard to tell whether Neo is a program because do what he does and no other human can. Kind of like AI develops; Neo developed either before or faster than the other "hopefuls" (programs) children from the first are actually programs that are developing AI?
or he is both; a human with all this programming etched into his brain.
Or he is prgrammed to be a human.


In a continuation of the question of allowing software to run from a brain, I pose the question, If "knowledge" is downloaded into a persons brain (e.g. how to hotwire a motorcycle) does the person have that knowledge in the real world?

In the first film Morpheus et al were terrified of the Agents. Fighting them was not an option, all they could hope to do was run! Only The One could ever hope to fight an Agent and live, yet in Reloaded it seems that Morpheus more than holds his own in a fight against an Agent in the highway chase scene...how is the possible, given the fear of the agents in the first film? Has something happened since then that we missed out, or have the brothers simply forgotten themselves? Bare in mind that these Agents are even stronger than the originals, they are updates.


Another main reason why the cache must be cleaned; because humans progress. They learn much like if not better than AI. Morpheus is simply better and more skilled than the first. If the cache as a whole were to progress like this that would be a problem for the machines.



Why aren't the Agents equipped with the super powers that are available to "obsolete" programs? Surely as the Matrix's main line of defence they would be given everything that was available? The Twin's have the ability to "ghost" in and out of reality, and the Vampires can only be harmed by silver bullets (The Agents can be killed with normal bullets; "Dodge This!")


I have to go to class I'd like to respond with more of my theory. PLease excuse the mispellings I didnt have time to run spell check so I know is saturated with them.



Now for the big one!I'm not sure that I fully understood what the Architect meant about the choice. What is the choice...choose between what? and who makes it? Does everyone make this choice, or just one? Why does the presence of a choice change the amount of people who accept the Matrix?

My understanding of it is that at an unconscious level all people are given the choice to accept the Matrix or not, and that 99.9% of people choose to accept it, those that don't accept it wake up. This is contradictory to the first film, where people it seemed had to be woken up by others...but who woke them up? Maybe not all people had to be woken up, some just woke themselves, and then woke others? This seems unlikely...consider what would have happened to Neo, had the ship not been their to rescue him. I doubt he would have gotten his act together and built a ship, and a computer and hack the matrix and fly to Zion! I wonder what it would be like for someone to choose not to accept the Matrix on their own, and just woke up...remember...the Earth is a pretty big place!

How is the presence of a choice different from the first and second Matrices? Did they "force" people to accept the Matrix? This doesn't make sense, as surely it was people rejecting the Matrix that caused it to be such a "monumental failure"?...they rejected it, ergo they had a choice! See my confusion! Unless the "monumental failure" did not in fact entail people rejecting the Matrix as we were led to believe by Agent Smith in the first film, but it failed in some other way?

Unless of course the choice he was referring to was Neos choice between the two doors...but that makes no sense at all as to how that would make 99.9% of the people accept the Matrix!

The Architect also refers to the anomaly, which are presumably the 0.1% of people who reject The Matrix, i.e. the Zionites. He claims that these are a threat to the system, and hence must be periodically wiped out. My question is this: Why allow them to become a threat? Why not simply have a buzzsaw whirring at the bottom of the slide before escapees are dunked into the drink? Problem solved! Of course this flaw of logic was apparent in the first film...why not kill Neo and everyone else as soon as they awaken. Again this was forgiven due to the above mentioned "artistic licence" as a film with a Hero blended to mulch would not make for exciting viewing, but now with these new revelations, such silliness is unacceptable! so what's going on!?

Why is The One required in order for the system to be reset? Why can't the Architect reset it himself? Why, for that matter, does it even need to be reset? There is mention of Neo's code being assimilated into the Matrix. What good will that do?

Phew! That went on a bit longer than I expected! Anyway, I'm dieing to see Revolutions...all I'll say is that it has a lot to answer to! Any input would be greatly appreciated!

CSflim · 06-04-2003, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sun Tzu

yeah even with it written out this scene goes way out there. Very confusing. I dont think the others looked like Neo because everyone would have known as sure as Morpheus; they'd know who to look for. I think they found him through his actions; hacking. THe other Neos could represent all the multiple choices the machines know he would make?

I don't think that would matter. Remember that after each cycle every unplugged person dies. I don't think anyone, except Neo knows about the six previous Ones. So all of the Ones could have looked like Neo...but WHY? and HOW? I don't actually believe the whole robot/programmed human Neo, how would that explain his love for Trinity. I don't believe it is simulated computer love! Also, I don't believe a computer door would have chosen the door Neo did, it is a very *ilogical* decision...not the trademark of AI! Perhaps Neo is a clone!?

Also, I'm pretty sure that the "other" Neos in the monitors, ARE the previous Ones:

Quote:

The Architect - The matrix is older than you know. I
prefer counting from the emergence of one integral
anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case
this is the sixth version.

*Again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the
monitors: "Five versions? Three? I've been lied too.
This is *beep*."*

notice that they reply with different numbers: "Five Versions"..."Three?" etc. This seems to show that they were the previous ones reacting.

Sun Tzu · 06-04-2003, 07:23 PM

He states Neo (this is) the six version. It would seem that in the Matrix I amoung those awakend there was a legend and a prophecy. How was Morpheus so sure he wa the one; because he already knew what Neo looked like or as he stated he had been following his "work" I assumming his hacking abilities for some time. As far as falling for Trinity. . .well if I saw a woman do some of that stuff in the clothews shes wearing. . .I would probably too.

Think about the keymaker. Did he look scared when those twin demon things started after him. He did to me. He was a program, but fear is a human emotion. Thats the whole tripped out thing about AI is teaching computers philosophy. The day computer understand philosophy is when I start getting nervous. THe very fact that he can do what no other can seperates him from both the machines and humans.

What do you think about Zion being a cache?

raju · 06-06-2003, 01:31 PM

My theory which I've co-opted from someone else is that neo, trinity, morpheus are all programs desgined by the machines that are produced to continue the cycle of the matrix reloading and that it is smith who is the one we should be looking for. I believe that zion is a metamatrix and that above ground the humans are still fighting the machines, but have infiltrated the matrix by sending a rogue program (Smith) to kill Neo to stop him from being able to make that final choice, thus bringing the end of the matrix. To what end? I guess we'll have to see in Revolutions. It's a far fetched idea that Smith was sent by the 'real' humans to destroy the matrix, but I like it and am sticking with it. In essence, Smith really is the one, the one who represents humanity's survival against the machines. Any thoughts, feel free to bash or support.

Sun Tzu · 06-06-2003, 01:58 PM

Smith really didnt become rogue until Neo collided with him. In which case the humans would have counted on a Neo program to collide with Smith?

I think Smith is a virus with its own agenda that doesnt fit into the architects or the human plans.

I think if humans were still above ground it would defeat the true threat of the sentiniels. I think the only time they come close is to pick up a freed mind. Which I think isnt free at all anyway.

raju · 06-06-2003, 08:10 PM

remember how they said the last zion was destroyed in 72 hours, ie the one made a very quick decision, maybe that was because there may not have been an agent (smith) chasing him that time. Morpheus and Trin did a bang up quick job to get neo ready and he made the choice. This time (6th time) smith is introduced by humans and now neo is a target as smith makes him one. i'm wondering if in the other matrix versions were there agents chasing neo. In essence what I am asking, what is the purpose of the agents within the matrix? The 1% are awoken and sent to "zion", and the local police can handle the local matrix people. Could the agents just be rogue programs that hide in the hallways during the reloading like Mervoginian?

XenuHubbard · 06-07-2003, 12:58 AM

My 2 cents:

They are in a back-up of the Matrix. The real world has not been shown yet. All "freed" minds goes into a new Matrix.

That would explain a lot.

Sun Tzu · 06-07-2003, 01:47 PM

raju its an interesting view and certainly possible, but the agents really want the codes to Zion.

I look at it in terms like looking at a pc: if you dont do a clean disk what would happen?

Files could get corrupted and do unpredictable things; even over come files that have distict purpose in keeping the operation factors going.

Humans really are human (for energy) but in the Matrix they behave as files because of being plugged in. Which also leads me to believe they could have taken over Neo before he was freed if they chose (maybe) but they wanted to find Morpheus.

In the oracles apartment there were other humans that were "hopeful" which also leads me to believe that the machines dont know who the one is; but await for the predicted anomoly to happen which is the Oracles design to help find the anomoly.

Through everything the main theme Im getting reguardless of how and what is that the machines throught their effecient calculations, and anticipated projections they are still underestimating that there is something about humans which makes them superior.

I look forward to the next one.

cdwonderful · 06-07-2003, 03:24 PM

i dinna think much a it boyo

blizzak · 06-08-2003, 12:57 AM

It seems that everyone has expressed opinions to many of the questions I had, and many questions which I may have responded to are here as well

The one thing I am wondering if someone can fathom is if the anomaly is to choose 16 females and 7 males (from inside the matrix) to rebuild zion, how exactly will this process work? Even though I hate the idea of a matrix inside a matrix, it would seem that these people would be released from the "inner" matrix to the zion world, the zion world would be "rebooted" and they would be starting anew. I don't see how zion could be fully rebuilt by those people if it was destroyed by the machines, if indeed zion was the "real" world.

CSflim · 06-08-2003, 05:13 AM

blizzak: From what I gather, it would take these 32 people (and their offspring) many generations to rebuild Zion. Its not something that is expected to happen overnight.

Can't wait for Revolutions. It had better be good, and better answer questions, rather than just raising new ones! I wonder will Revolutions have a final ending, or will it leave room for further films. It seems that there would be plenty of material for further films, but of course, that last thing we want is to end up flogging a dead horse.

mackyroo · 06-09-2003, 12:42 AM

Ok, here are my 2 cents on what happened. I've read all the posts here and my brain is swimming, sorry if its alittle confusing.

People were wondering why Morpheus and Trinity are able to handle Agents now, what I've came up with is because they have been training with Neo, even tho it is just after the first movie, you still would have plenty of time to train I would guess.

The TV Screens on the wall in the Architect Scene are all the different responses he could have said.

Consider this possibility with a Matrix beside and Matrix, all part of a bigger program? The Matrix being one program and Zion and the "real world" part of another program, instead of "A Matrix in a Matrix".

The "Choice" Neo made was to save Trinity and have Zion destroyed. This was foreshadowed in the Tribal Dance/Love Scene where Neo could have been revered by as a God, or been with Trinity, he choose her, as he did when give the Two Choices the Architect gave him.

That's all I got for now, my head hurts for thinking about this for too long. Hopefully I'll understand more in the morning.

05-19-2003, 12:51 PM	#91 (permalink)
diergray Psycho	A friend of mine came up with another intersting twist. When the women kisses Neo why couldn't she have infected him with some code much like Neo infected Agent Smith. Perhaps that is how he is now able to effect machines outside of the Matrix. __________________ "Behold the turtle. He makes progress only when he sticks his neck out.” ~ James Bryant Conant

05-20-2003, 06:40 AM	#96 (permalink)
Realizm Insane Location: A fuzzy cloud.	edit: Much true about the TVs being the same as in the original... Interesting thought about Monica infecting Neo, I had thought that myself as I watched it if only because of the little "matrix sound" that you hear as they kiss... The Same sound you hear as the matrix is changing something the digitized rain. Last edited by Realizm; 05-20-2003 at 06:45 AM..

05-26-2003, 10:08 AM	#98 (permalink)
oldtimer Addict	Yeah, denim, fixed that dizziness you'd get after trying to read my post. Much clearer now. Finally, thanks for someone remarking on my post, always like to hear how other people think. __________________ Slowly but surely getting over the loss of TFP v. 3.0. Where the hell am I?.... Showering once a month does not make you a better person. "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy." Martin Luther King, Jr.

05-26-2003, 05:25 PM	#99 (permalink)
nightmare Tilted Location: Sophies bike seat	i just liked going in and watching the action and having my mind fucked with at the same time __________________ License to kill gophers by the government of the United Nations. Man, free to kill gophers at will. To kill, you must know your enemy, and in this case my enemy is a varmint. And a varmint will never quit - ever. They're like the Viet Cong - Varmint Cong. So you have to fall back on superior intelligence and superior firepower. And that's all she wrote.

06-02-2003, 11:25 PM	#102 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	This is something I mentioned in the other Matrix post: I was confused when the architect mentioned Zion had happened before. With Neos predicators before him eliminating Zion except for a few. After hearing what other s thought about the Matrix within a Matrix it started to give me this impression- The architect stated the Matrix was running efficiently; post the perfect world that didn’t take. But as with any computer for various reasons anomalies happen. Kind of like when you don’t defrag you hard drive shit starts happening. Zion could be a cache of “anomalies” or weaknesses in the Matrix from lack of maintenance with people awakening whether in physical or mental form doesn’t matter. As the cache becomes full or even dangerous to the machines an entity like neo representing a trusted savior unknowingly clears the cache, defrags the fragmented beings, or in other words destroys Zion. Just as the architect stated has been done numerous times before. The Matrix within the Matrix explains Neos ability to destroy the sentinels. It also seems like the Oracle is trying to tell him that’s its her purpose to guide him there, and also stating and emphasizing the everything has a purpose; Neos purpose is also laid out. It doesn’t make her evil just is how her program runs. The fact that Neo may have done something unexpected like collide with another program “Smith” could have caused a Smith virus; that’s how he is multiplying. It also would explain that since they are still in the Matrix how he is in the guy at the end. It’s obvious he has his own agenda, much like a virus. If this is the case my big question is this; picking a time like the 90s the machines should know that humans will continue to progress; leaving a need for a Zion cache; but why not pick a simpler time when people aren’t going to give as much of a problem. Like say the middle ages? If energy is the central focus. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

05-19-2003, 09:23 AM	#88 (permalink)
wondash Psycho	I saw it for a second time this weekend and liked it even more than the first! Instead of trying to focus on the story, I just sat back and enjoyed the ride! I did notice something that may support the "Matrix in a Matrix" theory; During the opening title sequence it looked like the green matrix imagery formed the shape of Zion. Can anyone else confirm this?

05-19-2003, 02:53 PM	#92 (permalink)
FuddMan Crazy Location: USA	What are your interpretations on the various emotional expressions by Neo on the architects TVs? Is it showing variety and unpredictability in humanity or "One"s before him. There might have been a whole hell of a lot of "One"s.

05-19-2003, 07:17 PM	#94 (permalink)
teflonian Appreciative Location: Paradise	I like how the discussion this far down has transferred from "I hate it" or "I love it" to more nit picking type of analysis as to the meanings of the movie. Unfotunately, I am going to chime in with an "I love it" type of comment. I honestly do not see what anyone has to complain about in this movie. It has everything anybody could ever want. Or maybe that anybody is just me and those like me, but still... For every "it boored me" type of response to the movie, I can't help but think of old jaded ladies complaining about the number of stairs to reach the viewing platform of the grand canyon. Sure there were a lot of steps, sure some of them were in disrepair, sure an escalator would have been a quicker way to the top, but... What you are looking at is the grand canyon and it is a perfect spring day with a mild breeze and clear skies and !!!! I guess my point is that the movie was great and people fueled with their own opinions of how the second movie SHOULD have been aren't appreciating the movie for what it is. Anyway, back to the more appreciated worthwhile analysis I hope.

05-20-2003, 05:37 AM	#95 (permalink)
Ganguro Army of Me	okay.. i just saw wthe movie last night.. Here are my (and Peutetre's) thoughts We agree on the whole "second matrix" thing.. actually we think of it as a multidimentional array. The matrix is an array within an array. Also we think Neo may be a program. Specificly.. we think he may be a manifestation of error handling, or an "garbage collector". When the oracle is talking about "ghosts, aliens, werewolves and vampires.." being programs doing stuff they arent supposed to be doing and they get a choice to shut down and exile themselves or get destroyed/ assimilated into the sources.. we think that may specificly alluding to Neo's role in the whole thing. Perhaps Zion is that exile? Perhaps Neo being the anomaly and all his powers stem from him being a conglomoration of errors in the programming. The Matrix keeps running him through the program trying to correct these errors over and over again until it's rate of failure is minimal. That is what the architect says that they have done this 5(or 6?) times previously. Theoreticly he's stuck in a "Do Until" loop.

05-28-2003, 02:47 PM	#100 (permalink)
Gortexfogg I and I Location: Stillwater, OK	The Architect talked about how they had the first "perfect"matrix, then they had to reset it. Then the next one wasn't right, so they did it again. Will the Architect ever construct an ideal matrix that won't have to be restarted every so often? Or, like said in the film, will there always be that remainder left after the calculations which is the One? Oh, and this was one awesome movie, no matter what anyone says.

06-04-2003, 02:01 PM	#107 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	CSFilm did you find the script online? IF insanity must have made you watch it a few times to pick that up. Thanks this helps allot. It sounds like what I was referencing. Zion is a cache. Its another Matrix, and the humans there are files that need to be defragged. By design the machines know that anomolies will happen (the lesser being the humans in Zion) for what ever reason they probaly wake or start catching on. So Neo is either created or by mathematical calculation expected; programmed or (fooled/ guided) into clearing out the cache (Zion). Smith is anomoly unexpected. WHen Neo crossed into him some of Neos "files" crossed into SMith turning him into a virus. This is why he really is not outside of the Matrix at the end, nor does Neo's powers exsist outside of the Matix when destroying the Sentiniels because they are still inside. Perhaps the reason they are digging, and the agents after them is part of Neos guiding/ purposful programming to have structure as to why he needs to do what he has to do. If this is the case why, not make the Matrix in the middle ages? THe machines would still be able to harness energy with about 1/8 of the trouble they're going through in the progressive 90s where humans even if alseep would always present a threat because of progress. I may be reading too much into it. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking* Last edited by Sun Tzu; 06-04-2003 at 03:12 PM..

06-04-2003, 02:19 PM	#108 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	No, I didn't find a script online, thought I would really like to! The Architects speech was lifted from a post on imdb.com, and where that posted got it, I'm unsure, but I got the impression that that was all he had, not the whole script. If anyone has the whole script (or even a part of it) please post a link, as I'm sure there are plenty of us who would love to get their hands on it! __________________

06-04-2003, 07:23 PM	#111 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	He states Neo (this is) the six version. It would seem that in the Matrix I amoung those awakend there was a legend and a prophecy. How was Morpheus so sure he wa the one; because he already knew what Neo looked like or as he stated he had been following his "work" I assumming his hacking abilities for some time. As far as falling for Trinity. . .well if I saw a woman do some of that stuff in the clothews shes wearing. . .I would probably too. Think about the keymaker. Did he look scared when those twin demon things started after him. He did to me. He was a program, but fear is a human emotion. Thats the whole tripped out thing about AI is teaching computers philosophy. The day computer understand philosophy is when I start getting nervous. THe very fact that he can do what no other can seperates him from both the machines and humans. What do you think about Zion being a cache? __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

06-06-2003, 01:31 PM	#112 (permalink)
raju Upright	My theory which I've co-opted from someone else is that neo, trinity, morpheus are all programs desgined by the machines that are produced to continue the cycle of the matrix reloading and that it is smith who is the one we should be looking for. I believe that zion is a metamatrix and that above ground the humans are still fighting the machines, but have infiltrated the matrix by sending a rogue program (Smith) to kill Neo to stop him from being able to make that final choice, thus bringing the end of the matrix. To what end? I guess we'll have to see in Revolutions. It's a far fetched idea that Smith was sent by the 'real' humans to destroy the matrix, but I like it and am sticking with it. In essence, Smith really is the one, the one who represents humanity's survival against the machines. Any thoughts, feel free to bash or support.

06-06-2003, 01:58 PM	#113 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	Smith really didnt become rogue until Neo collided with him. In which case the humans would have counted on a Neo program to collide with Smith? I think Smith is a virus with its own agenda that doesnt fit into the architects or the human plans. I think if humans were still above ground it would defeat the true threat of the sentiniels. I think the only time they come close is to pick up a freed mind. Which I think isnt free at all anyway. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

06-06-2003, 08:10 PM	#114 (permalink)
raju Upright	remember how they said the last zion was destroyed in 72 hours, ie the one made a very quick decision, maybe that was because there may not have been an agent (smith) chasing him that time. Morpheus and Trin did a bang up quick job to get neo ready and he made the choice. This time (6th time) smith is introduced by humans and now neo is a target as smith makes him one. i'm wondering if in the other matrix versions were there agents chasing neo. In essence what I am asking, what is the purpose of the agents within the matrix? The 1% are awoken and sent to "zion", and the local police can handle the local matrix people. Could the agents just be rogue programs that hide in the hallways during the reloading like Mervoginian?

06-07-2003, 12:58 AM	#115 (permalink)
XenuHubbard Cute and Cuddly Location: Teegeeack.	My 2 cents: They are in a back-up of the Matrix. The real world has not been shown yet. All "freed" minds goes into a new Matrix. That would explain a lot. __________________ The above was written by a true prophet. Trust me. "What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

06-07-2003, 01:47 PM	#116 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	raju its an interesting view and certainly possible, but the agents really want the codes to Zion. I look at it in terms like looking at a pc: if you dont do a clean disk what would happen? Files could get corrupted and do unpredictable things; even over come files that have distict purpose in keeping the operation factors going. Humans really are human (for energy) but in the Matrix they behave as files because of being plugged in. Which also leads me to believe they could have taken over Neo before he was freed if they chose (maybe) but they wanted to find Morpheus. In the oracles apartment there were other humans that were "hopeful" which also leads me to believe that the machines dont know who the one is; but await for the predicted anomoly to happen which is the Oracles design to help find the anomoly. Through everything the main theme Im getting reguardless of how and what is that the machines throught their effecient calculations, and anticipated projections they are still underestimating that there is something about humans which makes them superior. I look forward to the next one. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

06-07-2003, 03:24 PM	#117 (permalink)
cdwonderful another passenger Location: Youngstown, Ohio	i dinna think much a it boyo __________________ Never try to teach a pig to whistle it wastes your time, and annoys the pig.....

06-08-2003, 12:57 AM	#118 (permalink)
blizzak Crazy	It seems that everyone has expressed opinions to many of the questions I had, and many questions which I may have responded to are here as well The one thing I am wondering if someone can fathom is if the anomaly is to choose 16 females and 7 males (from inside the matrix) to rebuild zion, how exactly will this process work? Even though I hate the idea of a matrix inside a matrix, it would seem that these people would be released from the "inner" matrix to the zion world, the zion world would be "rebooted" and they would be starting anew. I don't see how zion could be fully rebuilt by those people if it was destroyed by the machines, if indeed zion was the "real" world. __________________ Fueled by oxytocin!

06-08-2003, 05:13 AM	#119 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	blizzak: From what I gather, it would take these 32 people (and their offspring) many generations to rebuild Zion. Its not something that is expected to happen overnight. Can't wait for Revolutions. It had better be good, and better answer questions, rather than just raising new ones! I wonder will Revolutions have a final ending, or will it leave room for further films. It seems that there would be plenty of material for further films, but of course, that last thing we want is to end up flogging a dead horse. __________________

06-09-2003, 12:42 AM	#120 (permalink)
mackyroo Tilted Location: in a padded room.	Ok, here are my 2 cents on what happened. I've read all the posts here and my brain is swimming, sorry if its alittle confusing. People were wondering why Morpheus and Trinity are able to handle Agents now, what I've came up with is because they have been training with Neo, even tho it is just after the first movie, you still would have plenty of time to train I would guess. The TV Screens on the wall in the Architect Scene are all the different responses he could have said. Consider this possibility with a Matrix beside and Matrix, all part of a bigger program? The Matrix being one program and Zion and the "real world" part of another program, instead of "A Matrix in a Matrix". The "Choice" Neo made was to save Trinity and have Zion destroyed. This was foreshadowed in the Tribal Dance/Love Scene where Neo could have been revered by as a God, or been with Trinity, he choose her, as he did when give the Two Choices the Architect gave him. That's all I got for now, my head hurts for thinking about this for too long. Hopefully I'll understand more in the morning. __________________ Official Bullshit.