What does feminist mean today? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

KinkyKiwi · 10-08-2004, 03:03 PM

I was raised with a hippie girls can do everything men can do better attitude. My mother was a bra burning angry youth hippie in her day. She taught me to never let a man do for you what you can do for yourself, to never let him pay for you, or open doors for you. For years I refused to let a man treat me like I was inferior or feminine because to me thats what being a feminist meant. But the other day I found my lazy bum at my grandmothers house. A sweet very ladylike grandmother, the exact contrast of what I saw myself as. Well there was a rather large TV that needed to be moved..I could have done it myself..but I found myself calling on the muscle strenth of the gardener...

And it got me thinking...in the 60's being a feminist was very clear..even in teh 50's..teh 70's/80's it changed but i remained pretty unchanged..girl power..girls rule boys drool..ect...

but today...it seems that our new definition of feminism is "well guys are allowed to fuck as much as they want so we should be allowed teh same without getting teh whore rep because thats equal rights"..
think Lil' Kim...

But at the same time...I've noticed that girls have started expecting guys to pay again..to hold open doors again ect...

and the first ones to give a girl the slut rep is other girls?

I'm just randomly confused about what being a feminist means anymore...

Anyone?

KinkyKiwi · 10-08-2004, 03:09 PM

Wow, guess nobody is wondering about the same thing huh?

KinkyKiwi · 10-08-2004, 03:16 PM

..sigh..and here i thought i had such a good topic....

maleficent · 10-08-2004, 04:53 PM

It's a great topic KinkyKiwi - -I was on a plane....

I was in high school and colllege in the years after Title IX passed - rather than retype it all, or listen to me pontificate about it - here's a link from the Department of Labor site http://www.dol.gov/oasam/regs/statutes/titleix.htm

Basic gist of it -- No more discrimination in education. I graduated from high school in 82 - just 10 years after Title IX passed, and it was still unheard of for a girl to take auto shop, we got to take Home Ec, because that was important for us to know how to bake cookies (but changing the oil or a tire? No - -not important)

It also extended into sports, or was supposed to. I grew up with a working mom, my siblings and I were latch key kids from the time my brother was in first grade, and my mother (as much as we don't get along) always insisted that my sister and I could do whatever and be whatever I wanted.

She and my dad marched into school one day, after I got the results of my SATs and basically ripped my guidence counselor a new asshole for reccommending a major of English Lit to me -- because that's what girls majored in. They backed me when I and another girl (it helped having dad be a lawyer) took in the board of education for equal time for girls sports (there was no girls swim team, so title IX said we could play with the boys -- we won)

Being a feminist is not men hating, being a bitch at all costs type of person, it's a woman (and am man) who is not afraid to stand up for themselves, and for those who won't are too afraid, and not accepting anything less than what they deserve.

My generation had it a lot easier than my mothers generation, if I was in my mom's time, I would have been told to sit down and shut up like a good girl, instead, I was listened to, for the most part, and in most cases, I didn't take no for an answer because I knew the law was on my side. This generation of young women has it a lot easier than generations past, but, like the old Virginia Slims ad used to say, We've come a long way, baby.... But we've still got a ways to go.

Squishor · 10-08-2004, 06:15 PM

I too grew up with a hippie mother who taught me those same things. My parents raised me to believe I could do anything I wanted to, and gender was not a factor in my house as far as I can recall. I played with Hot Wheels, and although my sister preferred Barbie, she was considered the oddball.

These days I believe the whole idea of feminism has been lost somewhere. There was a sort of backlash I guess, partly fueled by reaction to the utterly humorless types with their strident uncompromising insistence on taking feminism to extremes. So somewhere in the 80s or 90s being a feminist became an embarassment. The young women of today are the product of this era and, sadly, many if not most of them seem to have no idea what the freedoms they enjoy cost our mothers. I know that mine was almost disowned by her family and I'm sure many were. Today, young women seem so absorbed in appearances that they are forgetting to ask for respect for their minds and capabilities. I hope I'm wrong but the evidence points that way, doesn't it? I think our media is responsible for a lot of this but that's another rant.

I agree that being a femist doesn't mean hating men. I love men, and have been fortunate enough to enjoy the company of several very fine men. I also haven't been beaten, called names, treated as inferior or denied the opportunity to make my own choices. I believe this may be because my upbringing taught me to expect a certain level of respect and I don't mean opening doors. My boyfriend I'm with now listens when I have something to say, and I return the favor. As far as lifting heavy things, well, the fact is that men and women are built differently, so in my old age I have learned to ask for help but that doesn't diminish my self-respect.

I see a lot of angry young women around these days and I'm not sure why. I live near a downtown area where a lot of young people tend to hang out, especially on the weekends, and I see a lot of frustration and animosity in the air. I don't know what this is about, but I wonder if it has anything to do with the trends mentioned above. The thing is, if you examine the psychology behind a lot of male-dominating behaviors, in essence a lot of it boils down to a power struggle. Every time you let some guy yell something rude at you without making your objection known, you become the loser and you make it okay for them to continue doing that. Not that I go around yelling back at people because it's hard to do, and unpleasant. But given the opportunity I do let people know that I don't appreciate being treated as anything other than a complete human being.

StickODynomite · 10-08-2004, 09:13 PM

I expect a guy to hold a door open for me, pull out my chair..etc.. because I feel that its very gentleman-like. I enjoy it. I dont see anything wrong with it.

Women should be treated equally, but that will never happen. Just like it'll never happen that racism will stop. Women HAVE come a long way, but I feel that some girls these days dont appreciate nor do they understand the meaning behind the freedoms they have today.

Quote:

"and the first ones to give girls the slut rep is other girls"

Is that true? (And I'm not being sarcatic when I ask)
I think guys are more fond of the word 'slut' than other girls. Girls usually say it out of jealousy or spite, but guys say it because they mean it.

Quote:

Today, young women seem so absorbed in appearances that they are forgetting to ask for respect for their minds and capabilities. I hope I'm wrong but the evidence points that way, doesn't it?

It sure does seem like they're all about the looks. I think that's partly due to "stages" that some girls go through--and of course MTV showing 17 y/o girls dressing like a dirty skank doesn't help. I'm getting really tired of seeing 13-16 y/o girls trying to look and ACT (this especially bothers me) 25, instead of focusing on being successful in school or whatever else they do. I remember enjoying my youth and young age, not trying to rush through it. In fact, I tried putting off the whole "growing up" concept, but just couldn't escape it.

I probably read the original post wrong or something, but I had to let my opinion be known.

KinkyKiwi · 10-08-2004, 10:52 PM

way to go malefi!!! no, i don't think anybody read it wrong and i'm certainly not dissing being taken care of by men ..to a certain extent..lol i still love me my red roses...i think you got it right on. everything about being a woman today seems to be based on looks. even i've been snagged by the obsession..i have more eyeshadows then monet had paints..and back problems from wearing heels too much. i wish i could go back to my mothers time when being a "woman" meant something real. as for the slut thing...maybe its just where i live?..but teh guys have all reached a level of "as long as she uses protection whats the big" ..altho sleeping with teh entire football team in one season will still get you teh delightful nickname of a slut..but its mostly girls that really not only give each other names that are demeaning to women but seem to be throwing sisterhood and feminism away...what was all about your girls first and friendship now seems to be thrown away over guys. If i wasnt so horribly lazy i'd burn all my pink lacy bras and goddamn thongs and sing alanis morsette and blondie songs at teh top of my voice in teh middle on central park!...

murr....

KinkyKiwi · 10-08-2004, 11:02 PM

oh and as for teh school issues..i know how you feel..for one year of HS i went to an alternative highschool that was known for being accepting and unique and basically letting its students be who they wanted to be...somehow i ended up being teh only girl and all teh boys were there because tehy had been kicked out of regular schools or aressted...me being "super bitch" with a "piss me off and i'll kick your ass" attitude i got along fine with the other students and teachers..it was teh couple who ran the school where my issues lay...i would be having fun playing dodgeball, rugby or soccer with my friends and they would always come out and take the boys aside and tell them to be gentle with me and let me win because i was a girl and they might hurt me...eventually they started calling me inside whenever a game was being played so that i couldnt join in and so i was kicked off all the teams. really sucked..
still proud of my mom tho..lol she bitched them out with the mouth of a sailor

maleficent · 10-09-2004, 04:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StickODynomite

Is that true? (And I'm not being sarcatic when I ask)
I think guys are more fond of the word 'slut' than other girls. Girls usually say it out of jealousy or spite, but guys say it because they mean it

I absolutely think it's true - -it's the jealousy or spite that's more hurtful and damaging to another person, expecially when it comes from your own gender, that's worse than anything else... and it spreads much faster.

Boys tend to leave their talk to the "locker room" and are saying things to bloat their own ego -- not necessarily hurt the girl. When agirl says it about another girl, it's is ALL ABOUT hurting the person.

KinkyKiwi · 10-09-2004, 05:41 AM

another thought on the subject...it seems that the new trend with "women" is to pull thinking back 50 years and now want to stop working to take care of kids and the husband and thats now like SUCH a big deal. everygirl around me is worried about finding guess what?..not a job that empowers them or thier niche...just a husband. 5 of my friends are already pregnant and married. and while it is amuseing to watch them deal with morning sickness, weight gain and sore ankles its so sad to me that their "willing" (dont want to-doing it for a man) to give up their own lives and careers so young. I hear my "unmarried" friends talk about being so like its the end of the world not to be hitched at 20. Also phrases like "well after I'm married I wont have to try so hard"(to look attractive to get a man to agree to marry)...why were you trying in the first place...?

Sorry ...

Kinda a rant

i had to edit this cuz everyone was misreading it...

maleficent · 10-09-2004, 05:58 AM

So, I'm more than twice your age, and have been a feminist longer than you've been alive... I once thought like that... (and this is no way a rant against you at all -- just my opinion)

I knew people in high school who got married soon after high school, I knew people in college who were there only to get their MRS degree (and I went to a pretty good school, that took pretty decent grades to get into, it wasn't Podunk University where they took anyone) I scoffed at people like that. what the hell was wrong with them, why did they want to turn their back on their intelligence and become tied down.

Somewhere in my thirties, I realized that this attitude was really turning against what feminism is all about. In the 50s women married young and had families and went to college to get a MRS degree because they had to... They don't have to anymore, it's a choice that they make. Feminism is partially that a woman has a choice to go out and pursue a career and be successful, feminism is also that a woman has a choice to get married and have a family.

BUT - the statement that "after they are married they won't have to try so hard" burns me to no end, marriage is work, family is work, sometimes harder work than a career. Or the 20 year old that thinks there is something wrong with them because they're not married at 20. That's going back to 50s mentality, where they HAVE to be married, not 00's mentality where they want to be married.

I have always firmly held the belief that you cannot have a life with someone else, until you have had a life by yourself. You cannot expect happiness to come from another person.

KinkyKiwi · 10-09-2004, 06:21 AM

lol i agree with you totally..what i meant by the trying so hard comment is thats what the girls around me are saying not about having a family or how hard you have to work to be a mother and wife...i'm perfectly aware that that may be the hardest job around. I have a 4 year old sister whos hyper active and fussy...and my mom works...i see her struggling to do both and i admire that to no end. the phrase is more in line of my friends working hard to look stunning everyday to get a man with an inch of makeup, 4 inch heels, daily trips to the gym, implants ect and then planning to stop all that when tehy get married like once theyve tied down the guy their job is done. making it pretty clear that the only reason tehy were going to any lenth of work is just to "hook" a guy... my scorn isnt aimed at people who fall in love and want to have kids because thats what they want...its aimed at people who use appearence as a way to "hook" a guy...without really caring if its love and not really caring or thinking about how marrige really means forever and that its a serious thing and having those kids then when the kids are like 10 finally realizing that it isnt what they really want. but i'm in no way saying that being a mother isnt work i know it is and i truly admire those who have the energy to keep up with kids and a husband.

xxSquirtxx · 10-09-2004, 08:11 AM

'Feminist' today is bullshit. I have a lot to say, but I'll just condense it. Here is what I see:

feminist "Oh, you must treat me like a man. DON'T open any damn doors for me. DON'T tell me how nice I look. DON'T give me any special treatmen. DON'T exclude me in business talk." Ad nauseum.

THEN.......
The first man to tell a dirty joke around a "feminist", or compliments her on what she's wearing, or, God forbid, asks her on date....Hello...lawsuit time.

Oh, and let's LOWER the standards in important jobs like the military, firefighters, police, etc. so that women can get into those jobs.

They want to be treated like men and have hissy fits when they actually are treated like men. Dumbasses.

/rant

shannon · 10-09-2004, 08:39 AM

wow. someone has some anger to work through.
anyways....
i think that feminism is about shedding our labels.
i don't want to be treated like a man. i don't want to be treated like a woman. i just want to be treated like me.
i want my boyfriend to do nice shit for me, but not because i'm a woman and those are the things you have to do for a woman. i want him to do it because he loves me. he can hold the door for me, but i'll hold the door for him too.
i think a lot of girls today assume that we have equality, because our inequality is not so blatant as when our mothers were fighting it. we have indeed come a long way. but we still still are expected to behave in certain ways because of our sex.
last night, after the presidential debate, the station i was watching interviewed two women on their thoughts on the debate. and the guy interviewing said "we have an all ladies night tonight" or something like that. and i just couldn't help but think that this signified something about our place in the world. when two females are picked to talk politics it is rare enough that they comment on it. can you imagine someone doing that if they had two males on?
anyways, i thought for a long time that feminists were insane angry people who just yell about everything and can't take a joke. and some of them are. but a lot of them are just wanting a more equal playing ground; less stringent judgements surrounding sexuality, more job equality (less of a pay gap, etc.)...just really basic stuff. i think everyone would agree that they are important things to have, if people could just get past that feminist label.

Squishor · 10-09-2004, 08:52 AM

Wow, xxSquirtxx, why are you so angry? I agree that there's a lot of hypocrisy out there but it can be found among all groups, right? Just be glad you're allowed to vote, wear pants and use birth control. Oh yeah, and you get to speak your mind, too.

xxSquirtxx · 10-09-2004, 09:00 AM

LMAO...no anger at all.

Feminists have just become.....characitures, plain and simple.

Equal pay for equal work? Hell yes!

Shut the fuck up if I don't want to hear your dirty jokes? Hell yes!

Hire me if I can't lift 100lbs in a job that requires it? Hell no!

That's it. Simple, really.

Yeah, yeah...all the other crap...birth control, etc. Good stuff. That's not my beef.

ShaniFaye · 10-09-2004, 09:08 AM

I was raised in the deep south...I was raised to think it ungentlemanly and rude for a man to not open doors, pull out chairs, pay for the date...unless otherwise prearranged....to this day I still enjoy that and I wont apologize for it. I understand that there are women out there that will be in the eternal struggle for equal rights....and bully for them.....but I still have the right to expect to be treated like a lady and let the man do the "manly" work of lifting, carrying, opening doors etc.

maleficent · 10-09-2004, 10:05 AM

Being treated like a lady is not the same thing as being a feminist. I am a feminist, but still want to be treated like a lady -- totally different issues. I don't want to be restricted from doing something solely because of my gender.

Without feminists behind you, you wouldn't have your own website, you wouldn't be able to own property, it wouldn't be 'proper' for you to live on your own. Get divorced? You're a fallen women, don't even think about it. It surely wouldn't be appropriate for me to do what I do for a living.

Feminism is not about women bitching about having doors opened for them. Equal rights are still a struggle. One issue that's been tehre for years, and effects a lot of the women here -- many medical insurance companies won't cover birth control for any reason. Why? Isn't birth control cheaper than actual maternity care?

ShaniFaye · 10-09-2004, 10:21 AM

I agree....BUT....dont you find that a LOT of woment who talk about being feminists bitch about those kinds of things? "I dont like being treated like Im an invalid...so I dont want some guy opening my door" and its things like that, that I absolutely cannot stand....they see manners, politeness, being treated like a lady..etc as an infringement on their feminism and its those people, IMO that give feminism a bad rap

Im lucky my insurance does cover my birth control

StickODynomite · 10-09-2004, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

I absolutely think it's true - -it's the jealousy or spite that's more hurtful and damaging to another person, expecially when it comes from your own gender, that's worse than anything else... and it spreads much faster.

Boys tend to leave their talk to the "locker room" and are saying things to bloat their own ego -- not necessarily hurt the girl. When agirl says it about another girl, it's is ALL ABOUT hurting the person.

I've known MANY guys that have said it to hurt the person. Just to hurt them... because they thought it would make the end of their day that much better. Ugh, I hate immature guys.

anti fishstick · 10-10-2004, 04:05 PM

Wow, some very good replies here and a good post! Thanks Kiwi.

Unfortunately, there are some guys that still believe that feminists are hypocrites.

In the philosophy forum, under the homosexuality thread a guy said this:

Quote:

Yeah, like how Chechen terrorists are representative of all Muslims.
Feminists aren't just women, they're walking contradictions.
"Hey women should be treated equally to men, but all men are bastards"

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...27#post1456027

Now, i'm not posting this so we can all flood the forum and bitch at him, and i'm not suggesting that we do either.

I'm just giving you a basis for a point of view that we can discuss. I think that a lot of men view feminism as the notorious "man-hating" phenomenon because there have been a lot of people in the media that refer to feminists this way and use the word femmenazi's, etc. I simply think it's not true and that you can't just paint one picture of feminism because all feminists are different.

Maleficent says she's a feminist, yet still wants to be treated like a lady. So this doesn't support xxSquirtxx's obviously personal rant about feminists who don't want the door being held for them, etc. Not all feminists are the same and, as such, have different views amongst themselves. Feminism is "the belief in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes". This is the one definition that unites feminists, but they can have different views around these things as well and that's fine. What is equality? For some, it may mean having equal rights in the military but for others, it's more loosely based on have equal rights as *people*.

I like Shannon's response. "i think feminism is about shedding our labels".
But most importantly, I think feminism is about shedding our *gender roles*. It's not about what women can or can't do. We have to remember that gender roles and sexuality are different things. Gender roles don't MAKE you a specific gender... In our society, "boy" or "girl" isn't as black and white as what genitals are assigned to you anymore. "Boy" and "girl" includes the gender role systems we, as a society, have created for each other. It's not enough anymore to BE a girl, we have to act like one. How does/should a man act? How does/should a woman act? These things are taught to us all our lives and are carried into adulthood.

I think what feminism tries to do is break down the gender role systems so that we can be treated like people. And so that we can be treated as humans and not commodities. I think there are some similar struggles here with homosexual/transgendered rights as well. It is all an attempt to break down the gender roles.

ColonelSpecial · 10-10-2004, 04:07 PM

I think feminism today means choices. Women now have choice of jobs, choice of colleges, choice of lifestyles, choice of life partners, reproductive choices, the choice on who, when and where to have sex, the choice not to have sex at all, the choice of staying home and raising children, the choice to work outside the home and raise children, the choice not to raise children at all, the choice to open a door or have the door opened for her, the choice to let someone pay for a meal or to pay for herself. It is all choices.
Parts of feminism have become a caricature of the ideal. But the same can be said about the various political parties. I still prefer to think of the choices we have gained from the work of people past.

Missy · 10-10-2004, 07:25 PM

I personally like it when a guy brings me flowers, holds my door, pays for dinner, etc. That is being a gentleman and wins major points with me. However that doesn't mean I need these things, or even a guy in my life. I have my own job, my own money, and don't need to rely on someone for anything. I think that is the essance of being a feminist. A woman can do anything a guy can do if she applies herself.

xxSquirtxx · 10-10-2004, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anti fishstick

Maleficent says she's a feminist, yet still wants to be treated like a lady. So this doesn't support xxSquirtxx's obviously personal rant about feminists who don't want the door being held for them, etc. Not all feminists are the same and, as such, have different views amongst themselves. Feminism is "the belief in the social, political and economic equality of the sexes".

Agreed, and I wasn't trying to insinuate that all feminists are the same. Far from it. I have a problem with the extreme ones. That's all.

anti fishstick · 10-11-2004, 09:42 AM

Ah, I see.
I know what you mean..
I too have a problem with the extreme ones.
Not a fan of Andrea Dworkin for example.. and probably a lot of others I can't think of at the moment. I think they give feminism a bad name. And that it's all been pretty labeled, which I don't like.

To comment about women wanting to marry young again as an excuse for not working as hard... I think I see the trend you're talking about, but I've also seen this "modern" woman business/career-minded trend where women want to be more independent with finances and their career situations. They want to be working women and not housewives, etc. They value college education and intelligence as a means to empower over submissiveness. But I think both types of women have their place. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to marry young, even though i'm more of the "modern" women type. It's a way to work with a situation and also get out of situations like poverty. I don't mean marrying for money necessarily. But marriage can help bridge the gap between socio-economic roles. It could help someone from the lower-class work towards the middle class. I think this is good for society. I think it'll still be hard work rather than an excuse to not work as hard.. but they will have the means to do it. Marrying someone that's poor if you make below the poverty line is not going to help your situation at all.

SparklingDot · 10-11-2004, 09:30 PM

I'm not into radical point of views because they just mean that there are people so bent on one way or another that they won't be able to compromise. I like being treated like a lady, and I like the freedom I have to do things for myself. Opening doors and paying for things is just a courtesy, one that I'm willing and able to return. Marriage shouldn't be about fulfilling societal expectations and gender roles. Its meant to be about the relationship with the other person.

Feminism is about choice. If a woman wants to be a mother who stays at home, and that makes her happy, there's no reason to condemn her. Just like there is no reason to ridicule a woman who chooses a career over a family, never gets married, and has a series of relationships. It shouldn't be about who does what. I believe in equality of choice, of treatment, of opportunity. I'd prefer that there just be people.

xxSquirtxx · 10-12-2004, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SparklingDot

I'm not into radical point of views because they just mean that there are people so bent on one way or another that they won't be able to compromise. I like being treated like a lady, and I like the freedom I have to do things for myself. Opening doors and paying for things is just a courtesy, one that I'm willing and able to return. Marriage shouldn't be about fulfilling societal expectations and gender roles. Its meant to be about the relationship with the other person.

Feminism is about choice. If a woman wants to be a mother who stays at home, and that makes her happy, there's no reason to condemn her. Just like there is no reason to ridicule a woman who chooses a career over a family, never gets married, and has a series of relationships. It shouldn't be about who does what. I believe in equality of choice, of treatment, of opportunity. I'd prefer that there just be people.

Yes!

KinkyKiwi · 10-15-2004, 03:07 PM

wow its great to come back later and read all the replies and varying opinions that everyones posted. thanks all! lol one thing i did notice is that everyones main point is very close to being the same...altho i dissagree about feminism being a hoax or non existant anymore...at least i hope its not because i certainly consider myself a feminist...but its not like i don't like being a lady ether...isnt feminism just about treating women with the same respect that anyone else is treated. be the woman manly or very feminine and girly. lol on another note why arent there more posts about feminism? and what do you guys think about todays role models?

maleficent · 10-15-2004, 10:36 PM

Not to lump all guys into one basket, but in my observations, you mention feminist to most guys, and their thought immediate goes to Gloria Allred and women of her ilk, and they automatically put their hands over their crotch regions for fear of emasculation.

They use the word femi-nazi to describe most all feminists, they have a hard time seperating the woman who's screaming at the top of her lungs about getting what's rightfully hers, and the woman who quietly manages to do that. Are they threatened by feminism? I don't think so, I'm just not sure they fully understand it. What kills me the most I see it more in one specific age group of men, men that should know better, but don't.

KinkyKiwi · 10-16-2004, 02:29 PM

i agree totally. i notice it with my fathers friends and my uncles. i mention that i'm going to a pro choice rally or wear a "girl power" tee shirt and they use phrases like "now whats a sweet girl liek you doing getting mixed up in all that for" ..lol it shouldnt piss me off as much as it does..but i don't liek being called ether "sweet" or a "girl" all that much..at least not in that way...when i tell guys my age that i'm a feminst or that i suport feminism i go from being treated like an attractive female to a guy friend...its silly and at thsi point guys should know that feminst in most cases just means we want to be treated with more respect then you give your car

SparklingDot · 10-16-2004, 09:48 PM

The thing is, you should get pissed about it. I'm not saying throw them against a wall and shove it down their throats, but you should be indignant. Just because you're a woman who has her own opinion about issues doesn't mean you can't still be treated like a woman. Personally, I'm glad it bothers you. And I encourage you to speak up for yourself.

Guys our age have no clue how to treat women. They don't know how to deal with a strong woman. But if and when you find one that respects you and your beliefs, it'll be worth it.

KinkyKiwi · 10-17-2004, 10:31 AM

lol if i act like i care i receive another "how cute" comment..its annoying but i just remind myself that theyre going to die pretty soon anyway so its not worth the stress to complain to them

...guys really do have no idea how to treat women...teh sad thing is that most women dont ether want to, feel they should or are too shy to tell men how to. so if we (as women) dont stick out our necks and explain it to them how will they learn? maybe its not JUST teh guys problem..maybe "we" arent putting in the effort?

and yea so far i've been lucky finding men that truly love and respect women as women

its IS liek nothing else

maleficent · 10-17-2004, 11:07 AM

Funny, in the two decades + that I've been working, it's not the older men that are the problem, most of them are pretty evolved and are pretty good at respecting women, primarily because they have daughters and tend to treat women the way they would want their daughters to be treated.

It's the under 25 set that truly makes me wonder. Do they not have sisters do they not have mothers? What exactly did their mothers teach them? The one's I come across hopefully are not the majority, but when I have a 24 year old network admin (who I'm a good 15 years older than) tell me I'm cute when I get mad, that boy needed to be drop kicked off the tallest building)

KinkyKiwi · 10-18-2004, 12:50 PM

lol maybe its just around where i live that the older men are asses? maybe its jjst that i'm always around the forever young unmarried play boy types? all i know is that i find that guys more around my age know where the limits are. i very rarely get harassed by younger men unless i go into the less developed areas in like the bronx or queens..then i get the lewd comments..but normally the guys around my age will actually come up and ask for my name and talk to me liek another equal human being..or just smile at me..the older guys are the ones that seem to use pickup lines like "that dress looks nice on you, but it would look better on my floor"...just bein a youngin..when did guys start thinking those worked? *shrug*

10-08-2004, 03:03 PM	#1 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	What does feminist mean today? I was raised with a hippie girls can do everything men can do better attitude. My mother was a bra burning angry youth hippie in her day. She taught me to never let a man do for you what you can do for yourself, to never let him pay for you, or open doors for you. For years I refused to let a man treat me like I was inferior or feminine because to me thats what being a feminist meant. But the other day I found my lazy bum at my grandmothers house. A sweet very ladylike grandmother, the exact contrast of what I saw myself as. Well there was a rather large TV that needed to be moved..I could have done it myself..but I found myself calling on the muscle strenth of the gardener... And it got me thinking...in the 60's being a feminist was very clear..even in teh 50's..teh 70's/80's it changed but i remained pretty unchanged..girl power..girls rule boys drool..ect... but today...it seems that our new definition of feminism is "well guys are allowed to fuck as much as they want so we should be allowed teh same without getting teh whore rep because thats equal rights".. think Lil' Kim... But at the same time...I've noticed that girls have started expecting guys to pay again..to hold open doors again ect... and the first ones to give a girl the slut rep is other girls? I'm just randomly confused about what being a feminist means anymore... Anyone? __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

10-08-2004, 03:09 PM	#2 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	Wow, guess nobody is wondering about the same thing huh? __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

10-08-2004, 03:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	..sigh..and here i thought i had such a good topic.... __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

10-08-2004, 04:53 PM	#4 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	It's a great topic KinkyKiwi - -I was on a plane.... I was in high school and colllege in the years after Title IX passed - rather than retype it all, or listen to me pontificate about it - here's a link from the Department of Labor site http://www.dol.gov/oasam/regs/statutes/titleix.htm Basic gist of it -- No more discrimination in education. I graduated from high school in 82 - just 10 years after Title IX passed, and it was still unheard of for a girl to take auto shop, we got to take Home Ec, because that was important for us to know how to bake cookies (but changing the oil or a tire? No - -not important) It also extended into sports, or was supposed to. I grew up with a working mom, my siblings and I were latch key kids from the time my brother was in first grade, and my mother (as much as we don't get along) always insisted that my sister and I could do whatever and be whatever I wanted. She and my dad marched into school one day, after I got the results of my SATs and basically ripped my guidence counselor a new asshole for reccommending a major of English Lit to me -- because that's what girls majored in. They backed me when I and another girl (it helped having dad be a lawyer) took in the board of education for equal time for girls sports (there was no girls swim team, so title IX said we could play with the boys -- we won) Being a feminist is not men hating, being a bitch at all costs type of person, it's a woman (and am man) who is not afraid to stand up for themselves, and for those who won't are too afraid, and not accepting anything less than what they deserve. My generation had it a lot easier than my mothers generation, if I was in my mom's time, I would have been told to sit down and shut up like a good girl, instead, I was listened to, for the most part, and in most cases, I didn't take no for an answer because I knew the law was on my side. This generation of young women has it a lot easier than generations past, but, like the old Virginia Slims ad used to say, We've come a long way, baby.... But we've still got a ways to go. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

10-08-2004, 10:52 PM	#7 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	way to go malefi!!! no, i don't think anybody read it wrong and i'm certainly not dissing being taken care of by men ..to a certain extent..lol i still love me my red roses...i think you got it right on. everything about being a woman today seems to be based on looks. even i've been snagged by the obsession..i have more eyeshadows then monet had paints..and back problems from wearing heels too much. i wish i could go back to my mothers time when being a "woman" meant something real. as for the slut thing...maybe its just where i live?..but teh guys have all reached a level of "as long as she uses protection whats the big" ..altho sleeping with teh entire football team in one season will still get you teh delightful nickname of a slut..but its mostly girls that really not only give each other names that are demeaning to women but seem to be throwing sisterhood and feminism away...what was all about your girls first and friendship now seems to be thrown away over guys. If i wasnt so horribly lazy i'd burn all my pink lacy bras and goddamn thongs and sing alanis morsette and blondie songs at teh top of my voice in teh middle on central park!... murr.... __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

10-08-2004, 06:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
Squishor Frontal Lobe Location: California	I too grew up with a hippie mother who taught me those same things. My parents raised me to believe I could do anything I wanted to, and gender was not a factor in my house as far as I can recall. I played with Hot Wheels, and although my sister preferred Barbie, she was considered the oddball. These days I believe the whole idea of feminism has been lost somewhere. There was a sort of backlash I guess, partly fueled by reaction to the utterly humorless types with their strident uncompromising insistence on taking feminism to extremes. So somewhere in the 80s or 90s being a feminist became an embarassment. The young women of today are the product of this era and, sadly, many if not most of them seem to have no idea what the freedoms they enjoy cost our mothers. I know that mine was almost disowned by her family and I'm sure many were. Today, young women seem so absorbed in appearances that they are forgetting to ask for respect for their minds and capabilities. I hope I'm wrong but the evidence points that way, doesn't it? I think our media is responsible for a lot of this but that's another rant. I agree that being a femist doesn't mean hating men. I love men, and have been fortunate enough to enjoy the company of several very fine men. I also haven't been beaten, called names, treated as inferior or denied the opportunity to make my own choices. I believe this may be because my upbringing taught me to expect a certain level of respect and I don't mean opening doors. My boyfriend I'm with now listens when I have something to say, and I return the favor. As far as lifting heavy things, well, the fact is that men and women are built differently, so in my old age I have learned to ask for help but that doesn't diminish my self-respect. I see a lot of angry young women around these days and I'm not sure why. I live near a downtown area where a lot of young people tend to hang out, especially on the weekends, and I see a lot of frustration and animosity in the air. I don't know what this is about, but I wonder if it has anything to do with the trends mentioned above. The thing is, if you examine the psychology behind a lot of male-dominating behaviors, in essence a lot of it boils down to a power struggle. Every time you let some guy yell something rude at you without making your objection known, you become the loser and you make it okay for them to continue doing that. Not that I go around yelling back at people because it's hard to do, and unpleasant. But given the opportunity I do let people know that I don't appreciate being treated as anything other than a complete human being.

10-08-2004, 11:02 PM	#8 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	oh and as for teh school issues..i know how you feel..for one year of HS i went to an alternative highschool that was known for being accepting and unique and basically letting its students be who they wanted to be...somehow i ended up being teh only girl and all teh boys were there because tehy had been kicked out of regular schools or aressted...me being "super bitch" with a "piss me off and i'll kick your ass" attitude i got along fine with the other students and teachers..it was teh couple who ran the school where my issues lay...i would be having fun playing dodgeball, rugby or soccer with my friends and they would always come out and take the boys aside and tell them to be gentle with me and let me win because i was a girl and they might hurt me...eventually they started calling me inside whenever a game was being played so that i couldnt join in and so i was kicked off all the teams. really sucked.. still proud of my mom tho..lol she bitched them out with the mouth of a sailor __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

10-09-2004, 05:41 AM	#10 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	another thought on the subject...it seems that the new trend with "women" is to pull thinking back 50 years and now want to stop working to take care of kids and the husband and thats now like SUCH a big deal. everygirl around me is worried about finding guess what?..not a job that empowers them or thier niche...just a husband. 5 of my friends are already pregnant and married. and while it is amuseing to watch them deal with morning sickness, weight gain and sore ankles its so sad to me that their "willing" (dont want to-doing it for a man) to give up their own lives and careers so young. I hear my "unmarried" friends talk about being so like its the end of the world not to be hitched at 20. Also phrases like "well after I'm married I wont have to try so hard"(to look attractive to get a man to agree to marry)...why were you trying in the first place...? Sorry ... Kinda a rant i had to edit this cuz everyone was misreading it... __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite. Last edited by KinkyKiwi; 10-18-2004 at 02:18 PM..

10-09-2004, 05:58 AM	#11 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	So, I'm more than twice your age, and have been a feminist longer than you've been alive... I once thought like that... (and this is no way a rant against you at all -- just my opinion) I knew people in high school who got married soon after high school, I knew people in college who were there only to get their MRS degree (and I went to a pretty good school, that took pretty decent grades to get into, it wasn't Podunk University where they took anyone) I scoffed at people like that. what the hell was wrong with them, why did they want to turn their back on their intelligence and become tied down. Somewhere in my thirties, I realized that this attitude was really turning against what feminism is all about. In the 50s women married young and had families and went to college to get a MRS degree because they had to... They don't have to anymore, it's a choice that they make. Feminism is partially that a woman has a choice to go out and pursue a career and be successful, feminism is also that a woman has a choice to get married and have a family. BUT - the statement that "after they are married they won't have to try so hard" burns me to no end, marriage is work, family is work, sometimes harder work than a career. Or the 20 year old that thinks there is something wrong with them because they're not married at 20. That's going back to 50s mentality, where they HAVE to be married, not 00's mentality where they want to be married. I have always firmly held the belief that you cannot have a life with someone else, until you have had a life by yourself. You cannot expect happiness to come from another person. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

10-09-2004, 06:21 AM	#12 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	lol i agree with you totally..what i meant by the trying so hard comment is thats what the girls around me are saying not about having a family or how hard you have to work to be a mother and wife...i'm perfectly aware that that may be the hardest job around. I have a 4 year old sister whos hyper active and fussy...and my mom works...i see her struggling to do both and i admire that to no end. the phrase is more in line of my friends working hard to look stunning everyday to get a man with an inch of makeup, 4 inch heels, daily trips to the gym, implants ect and then planning to stop all that when tehy get married like once theyve tied down the guy their job is done. making it pretty clear that the only reason tehy were going to any lenth of work is just to "hook" a guy... my scorn isnt aimed at people who fall in love and want to have kids because thats what they want...its aimed at people who use appearence as a way to "hook" a guy...without really caring if its love and not really caring or thinking about how marrige really means forever and that its a serious thing and having those kids then when the kids are like 10 finally realizing that it isnt what they really want. but i'm in no way saying that being a mother isnt work i know it is and i truly admire those who have the energy to keep up with kids and a husband. __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

10-09-2004, 08:11 AM	#13 (permalink)
xxSquirtxx More anal, less shenanigans Location: Always lurking	'Feminist' today is bullshit. I have a lot to say, but I'll just condense it. Here is what I see: <b>feminist</b> "Oh, you must treat me like a man. DON'T open any damn doors for me. DON'T tell me how nice I look. DON'T give me any special treatmen. DON'T exclude me in business talk." Ad nauseum. <i>THEN.......</i> The first man to tell a dirty joke around a "feminist", or compliments her on what she's wearing, or, God forbid, asks her on date....Hello...lawsuit time. Oh, and let's LOWER the standards in important jobs like the military, firefighters, police, etc. so that women <i>can</i> get into those jobs. They want to be treated like men and have hissy fits when they actually are treated like men. Dumbasses. /rant __________________ .

10-09-2004, 08:39 AM	#14 (permalink)
shannon Psycho Location: Canada	wow. someone has some anger to work through. anyways.... i think that feminism is about shedding our labels. i don't want to be treated like a man. i don't want to be treated like a woman. i just want to be treated like me. i want my boyfriend to do nice shit for me, but not because i'm a woman and those are the things you have to do for a woman. i want him to do it because he loves me. he can hold the door for me, but i'll hold the door for him too. i think a lot of girls today assume that we have equality, because our inequality is not so blatant as when our mothers were fighting it. we have indeed come a long way. but we still still are expected to behave in certain ways because of our sex. last night, after the presidential debate, the station i was watching interviewed two women on their thoughts on the debate. and the guy interviewing said "we have an all ladies night tonight" or something like that. and i just couldn't help but think that this signified something about our place in the world. when two females are picked to talk politics it is rare enough that they comment on it. can you imagine someone doing that if they had two males on? anyways, i thought for a long time that feminists were insane angry people who just yell about everything and can't take a joke. and some of them are. but a lot of them are just wanting a more equal playing ground; less stringent judgements surrounding sexuality, more job equality (less of a pay gap, etc.)...just really basic stuff. i think everyone would agree that they are important things to have, if people could just get past that feminist label. __________________ "When I look down I just miss all the good stuff. And when I look up I just trip over things"

10-09-2004, 08:52 AM	#15 (permalink)
Squishor Frontal Lobe Location: California	Wow, xxSquirtxx, why are you so angry? I agree that there's a lot of hypocrisy out there but it can be found among all groups, right? Just be glad you're allowed to vote, wear pants and use birth control. Oh yeah, and you get to speak your mind, too.

10-09-2004, 09:00 AM	#16 (permalink)
xxSquirtxx More anal, less shenanigans Location: Always lurking	LMAO...no anger at all. Feminists have just become.....characitures, plain and simple. Equal pay for equal work? Hell yes! Shut the fuck up if I don't want to hear your dirty jokes? Hell yes! Hire me if I can't lift 100lbs in a job that requires it? Hell no! That's it. Simple, really. Yeah, yeah...all the other crap...birth control, etc. Good stuff. That's not my beef. __________________ .

10-09-2004, 09:08 AM	#17 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I was raised in the deep south...I was raised to think it ungentlemanly and rude for a man to not open doors, pull out chairs, pay for the date...unless otherwise prearranged....to this day I still enjoy that and I wont apologize for it. I understand that there are women out there that will be in the eternal struggle for equal rights....and bully for them.....but I still have the right to expect to be treated like a lady and let the man do the "manly" work of lifting, carrying, opening doors etc. __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

10-09-2004, 10:05 AM	#18 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Being treated like a lady is not the same thing as being a feminist. I am a feminist, but still want to be treated like a lady -- totally different issues. I don't want to be restricted from doing something solely because of my gender. Without feminists behind you, you wouldn't have your own website, you wouldn't be able to own property, it wouldn't be 'proper' for you to live on your own. Get divorced? You're a fallen women, don't even think about it. It surely wouldn't be appropriate for me to do what I do for a living. Feminism is not about women bitching about having doors opened for them. Equal rights are still a struggle. One issue that's been tehre for years, and effects a lot of the women here -- many medical insurance companies won't cover birth control for any reason. Why? Isn't birth control cheaper than actual maternity care? __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

10-09-2004, 10:21 AM	#19 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I agree....BUT....dont you find that a LOT of woment who talk about being feminists bitch about those kinds of things? "I dont like being treated like Im an invalid...so I dont want some guy opening my door" and its things like that, that I absolutely cannot stand....they see manners, politeness, being treated like a lady..etc as an infringement on their feminism and its those people, IMO that give feminism a bad rap Im lucky my insurance does cover my birth control __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

10-10-2004, 04:07 PM	#22 (permalink)
ColonelSpecial Insane	I think feminism today means choices. Women now have choice of jobs, choice of colleges, choice of lifestyles, choice of life partners, reproductive choices, the choice on who, when and where to have sex, the choice not to have sex at all, the choice of staying home and raising children, the choice to work outside the home and raise children, the choice not to raise children at all, the choice to open a door or have the door opened for her, the choice to let someone pay for a meal or to pay for herself. It is all choices. Parts of feminism have become a caricature of the ideal. But the same can be said about the various political parties. I still prefer to think of the choices we have gained from the work of people past. __________________ "Mommy, the presidents are squishing me!" "Using the pull out method of contraceptive is like saying I won't use a seat belt, I'll just jump out of the car before it hits that tree." Sara

10-10-2004, 07:25 PM	#23 (permalink)
Missy Crazy	I personally like it when a guy brings me flowers, holds my door, pays for dinner, etc. That is being a gentleman and wins major points with me. However that doesn't mean I need these things, or even a guy in my life. I have my own job, my own money, and don't need to rely on someone for anything. I think that is the essance of being a feminist. A woman can do anything a guy can do if she applies herself.

10-11-2004, 09:42 AM	#25 (permalink)
anti fishstick Post-modernism meets Individualism AKA the Clash Location: oregon	Ah, I see. I know what you mean.. I too have a problem with the extreme ones. Not a fan of Andrea Dworkin for example.. and probably a lot of others I can't think of at the moment. I think they give feminism a bad name. And that it's all been pretty labeled, which I don't like. To comment about women wanting to marry young again as an excuse for not working as hard... I think I see the trend you're talking about, but I've also seen this "modern" woman business/career-minded trend where women want to be more independent with finances and their career situations. They want to be working women and not housewives, etc. They value college education and intelligence as a means to empower over submissiveness. But I think both types of women have their place. I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to marry young, even though i'm more of the "modern" women type. It's a way to work with a situation and also get out of situations like poverty. I don't mean marrying for money necessarily. But marriage can help bridge the gap between socio-economic roles. It could help someone from the lower-class work towards the middle class. I think this is good for society. I think it'll still be hard work rather than an excuse to not work as hard.. but they will have the means to do it. Marrying someone that's poor if you make below the poverty line is not going to help your situation at all. __________________ And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. ~Anais Nin

10-11-2004, 09:30 PM	#26 (permalink)
SparklingDot Insane	I'm not into radical point of views because they just mean that there are people so bent on one way or another that they won't be able to compromise. I like being treated like a lady, and I like the freedom I have to do things for myself. Opening doors and paying for things is just a courtesy, one that I'm willing and able to return. Marriage shouldn't be about fulfilling societal expectations and gender roles. Its meant to be about the relationship with the other person. Feminism is about choice. If a woman wants to be a mother who stays at home, and that makes her happy, there's no reason to condemn her. Just like there is no reason to ridicule a woman who chooses a career over a family, never gets married, and has a series of relationships. It shouldn't be about who does what. I believe in equality of choice, of treatment, of opportunity. I'd prefer that there just be people. __________________ 17 seconds is all you really need - Smashing Pumpkins

10-15-2004, 03:07 PM	#28 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	wow its great to come back later and read all the replies and varying opinions that everyones posted. thanks all! lol one thing i did notice is that everyones main point is very close to being the same...altho i dissagree about feminism being a hoax or non existant anymore...at least i hope its not because i certainly consider myself a feminist...but its not like i don't like being a lady ether...isnt feminism just about treating women with the same respect that anyone else is treated. be the woman manly or very feminine and girly. lol on another note why arent there more posts about feminism? and what do you guys think about todays role models? __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

10-15-2004, 10:36 PM	#29 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Not to lump all guys into one basket, but in my observations, you mention feminist to most guys, and their thought immediate goes to Gloria Allred and women of her ilk, and they automatically put their hands over their crotch regions for fear of emasculation. They use the word femi-nazi to describe most all feminists, they have a hard time seperating the woman who's screaming at the top of her lungs about getting what's rightfully hers, and the woman who quietly manages to do that. Are they threatened by feminism? I don't think so, I'm just not sure they fully understand it. What kills me the most I see it more in one specific age group of men, men that should know better, but don't. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

10-16-2004, 02:29 PM	#30 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	i agree totally. i notice it with my fathers friends and my uncles. i mention that i'm going to a pro choice rally or wear a "girl power" tee shirt and they use phrases like "now whats a sweet girl liek you doing getting mixed up in all that for" ..lol it shouldnt piss me off as much as it does..but i don't liek being called ether "sweet" or a "girl" all that much..at least not in that way...when i tell guys my age that i'm a feminst or that i suport feminism i go from being treated like an attractive female to a guy friend...its silly and at thsi point guys should know that feminst in most cases just means we want to be treated with more respect then you give your car __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

10-16-2004, 09:48 PM	#31 (permalink)
SparklingDot Insane	The thing is, you should get pissed about it. I'm not saying throw them against a wall and shove it down their throats, but you should be indignant. Just because you're a woman who has her own opinion about issues doesn't mean you can't still be treated like a woman. Personally, I'm glad it bothers you. And I encourage you to speak up for yourself. Guys our age have no clue how to treat women. They don't know how to deal with a strong woman. But if and when you find one that respects you and your beliefs, it'll be worth it. __________________ 17 seconds is all you really need - Smashing Pumpkins

10-17-2004, 10:31 AM	#32 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	lol if i act like i care i receive another "how cute" comment..its annoying but i just remind myself that theyre going to die pretty soon anyway so its not worth the stress to complain to them ...guys really do have no idea how to treat women...teh sad thing is that most women dont ether want to, feel they should or are too shy to tell men how to. so if we (as women) dont stick out our necks and explain it to them how will they learn? maybe its not JUST teh guys problem..maybe "we" arent putting in the effort? and yea so far i've been lucky finding men that truly love and respect women as women its IS liek nothing else __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

10-17-2004, 11:07 AM	#33 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Funny, in the two decades + that I've been working, it's not the older men that are the problem, most of them are pretty evolved and are pretty good at respecting women, primarily because they have daughters and tend to treat women the way they would want their daughters to be treated. It's the under 25 set that truly makes me wonder. Do they not have sisters do they not have mothers? What exactly did their mothers teach them? The one's I come across hopefully are not the majority, but when I have a 24 year old network admin (who I'm a good 15 years older than) tell me I'm cute when I get mad, that boy needed to be drop kicked off the tallest building) __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

10-18-2004, 12:50 PM	#34 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	lol maybe its just around where i live that the older men are asses? maybe its jjst that i'm always around the forever young unmarried play boy types? all i know is that i find that guys more around my age know where the limits are. i very rarely get harassed by younger men unless i go into the less developed areas in like the bronx or queens..then i get the lewd comments..but normally the guys around my age will actually come up and ask for my name and talk to me liek another equal human being..or just smile at me..the older guys are the ones that seem to use pickup lines like "that dress looks nice on you, but it would look better on my floor"...just bein a youngin..when did guys start thinking those worked? shrug __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.