01-11-2006, 08:37 PM | #121 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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01-11-2006, 09:05 PM | #122 (permalink) | |
Fade out
Location: in love
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You should be happy you have no issues.. But some men do actually have issues with sex and sensitivity, due to being cut... That is all i was pointing out. sweetpea
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01-11-2006, 09:08 PM | #123 (permalink) | |
Fade out
Location: in love
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hehe, Well, i'm glad it's not an issue for you But as i pointed out... it IS for some men, due to having had this procedure performed... And if i were to have it done on my son... yeah, it might turn out he has no problem because of it... but what if he turned out to be one of the boys that lost most of his sexual satisfaction because of it? I wouldn't take that chance, just to follow a cultural norm, that's all i'm saying sweetpea
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01-11-2006, 09:17 PM | #124 (permalink) | |
Fade out
Location: in love
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because after all, in parenting, there is no right or wrong really... it's what each family feels is correct for their child, based on their own upbringing and personal perspective on the world. And although i don't agree with the procedure and i wouldn't have it done if i had a son, that would be what *I* thought was best for my son... Personally, I don't think It's my place to say what you or any other mom or dad should or should not do with their child, because it is after all *your* child and you are the one responsible for making the choices you feel are best at the given time. sweetpea
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01-11-2006, 09:17 PM | #125 (permalink) |
Crazy
Location: Gold country!
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I went ahead and had my son cut. Mostly because I am, but also because mens body image is VERY closely tied to the peen. If it looks abnormal, or deviates from thier peers in any way, things can get rough. Especially in Junior HS. (All children turn into sadistic monsters right about then!) So essentially, i would rather trade off alittle sensitivity for a smoother adolescence.
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01-12-2006, 01:17 AM | #126 (permalink) | |
C'mon, just blow it.
Location: Perth, Australia
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"'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review. |
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01-12-2006, 01:48 AM | #127 (permalink) |
Forget me not...
Location: See that dot on the map? I don't live there.
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I think the topic to this thread is rather absurd.
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01-12-2006, 05:13 AM | #128 (permalink) | |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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I am cross-posting this here as well as in the ear piercing thread in case some people don't read both and since my post stradles between being relevant to each. However, it is not an exact duplicate of the post in the ear piercing thread. I have made some additions to this post that relate more specifically to this thread.
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Is it "abuse?" No, not really. Is it bad parenting? Sorry, but yes. A previous poster brought up an interesting point: at what point does body modification of your child, without the child's input or consent, become too much? Parents can pierce ears because it's aesthetically pleasing to them...can they also stretch the earlobes? What about piercing clitoral hoods or labia on baby girls, as someone brought up in the circumcision thread? Or how about a frenum piercing on baby boys (if you don't know what this is, click here)? Surely, if cutting off a part of the penis which has a specific purpose and contains the most sensitive and numerous nerves in the penis simply because it looks better and makes the parent's job of teaching their son how to clean himself a little easier is acceptable, a little frenum piercing should be as well. This is setting aside, of course, those who suffer from preputial stenosis and have a medical need for circumcision. Even then, infantile circumcision is, at the very least, not the best idea. little_tippler is right though: we, as Americans (because god knows there aren't any other societies which love circumcision for non-religious reasons as much as we do*), live in a society in which circumcision is normal. It is far less normal even in American society than it used to be, but it is still normal. Likewise, piercing a baby's ears may not be statistically normal, but it is not looked down upon. Individual parents who make these decisions are not abusive - intent is an important factor. It is not the parents as individuals who should be condemned with regards to these practices, it is the societal practice as a whole. I'll say this: at least earlobes, whatever purpose they may serve if any, do not lose their purpose or function by being pierced. The penis DOES lose a function by being circumcized. We can argue about whether it is a necessary function all day, but the point is it is a function, and that fact alone sets circumcision far apart from "normal" ear piercing. *Note: I don't know for a fact that there is not a single other society which circumcizes at the same rate of America for non-religious reasons, but I do know that if there are others, it is a relative few.
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01-12-2006, 05:55 AM | #129 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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Secret... good post.
I think this part bears repeating: "It is not the parents as individuals who should be condemned with regards to these practices, it is the societal practice as a whole."
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01-12-2006, 09:11 AM | #130 (permalink) | |
it's jam
Location: Lowerainland BC
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nice line eh? |
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01-12-2006, 11:25 AM | #131 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Connecticut
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less I say, smarter I am |
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01-12-2006, 12:41 PM | #132 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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The amusing thing about the anti-circumcision people is the weird, almost religious fervor they attack the practice with. I have to wonder if its due to the unease of making an 'unpopular' choice and wondering if they did the right thing for their child. One way or the other, its obviously not THAT big a deal, nothing I’ve read pro or con has shown any major difference between cut/uncut in terms of sex, and while there is a disease decrease for cut, its not very significant.
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01-12-2006, 01:11 PM | #133 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Connecticut
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(Smacks ustwo upside the head)
I think people should make changes to their own bodies, not anyone else's. I have no problem with tattoos, piercings, etc. I see circumcision as benefitting a parent's vanity, and not benefiting the best interests of a child.
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less I say, smarter I am |
01-12-2006, 01:56 PM | #134 (permalink) | |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
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01-12-2006, 02:05 PM | #135 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
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01-12-2006, 02:20 PM | #136 (permalink) |
Hey Now!
Location: Massachusetts (Redneck, white boy town. I hate it here.)
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Just for the record, I'm circumsized and I'm very happy with it.
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01-12-2006, 02:29 PM | #137 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Its those against which seem to have the big old chip on their shoulder.
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01-12-2006, 02:38 PM | #138 (permalink) | |
<3 TFP
Location: 17TLH2445607250
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01-12-2006, 02:54 PM | #139 (permalink) |
Getting it.
Super Moderator
Location: Lion City
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"Like pro-lifers killing abortion doctors to prove a point."
I know you didn't just make that comparision. The way I'm reading it, yes there are a lot of "I'm circumcised that's OK" type posts. There are also a lot of people who are attacking those who would point out that circumcision isn't neccessary. I don't agree that we should "smack people upside the head", "kill them", etc. but I can understand the frustration that many feel in the face of those who defend the position by shugging their shoulder "what me worry" or doing it for aestethic reasons. I don't anyone can truly say that cicumcision is a neccessary proceedure (excusing those with rare medical conditions or religious reasons). Noone here has given a solid reason for continuing the practice.
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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke |
01-12-2006, 03:52 PM | #140 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Edit:Upon re-reading the whole thread (very quickly) I didn't see anyone doing this. Just who is this 'a lot'?
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 01-12-2006 at 03:55 PM.. |
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01-12-2006, 04:23 PM | #141 (permalink) |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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It makes perfect sense that those against circumcision would be far more adament about it than those for it. Those for it view it as an inconsequential and common social practice - obviously they're not going to have any strong feelings about it other than "it's silly to be against something so simple" or whatever. Those against it, however, view it as genital mutilation. You expect someone to NOT be adamently against what they believe to be mutilation? That's just silly.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
01-12-2006, 04:40 PM | #142 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Quote:
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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01-12-2006, 04:55 PM | #143 (permalink) |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Yeah, the unnecessary mutilation of a baby boy's genitals is such a silly cause to get worked up about (You may not agree that's what it is, but that's what many opposed to it believe it is, in which case I'd consider a person of questionable character if he or she DIDN'T get worked up about it.)
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
01-12-2006, 06:42 PM | #145 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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We arn't talking foot binding or female cicumcision here.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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01-12-2006, 07:02 PM | #146 (permalink) | |
Mine is an evil laugh
Location: Sydney, Australia
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It is nice to be labelled a zealot I don't think anyone in this thread is planning to prosecute parents who do this, but the point still stands - why would you want to do this? There really aren't any compelling reasons why people have this done. You say you are glad it was done to you, and glad you did it to your son? Why??
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who hid my keyboard's PANIC button? |
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01-12-2006, 07:06 PM | #148 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: Boulder Baby!
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i dont think it can be compared to female circumcision, when boys are cut, they can still be sexually stimulated. without the clit, many women feel nothing.
I know the religious link to male circumscisions, but is there any for women? beyond control, i know of no other reason. enlighten me if you could.
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01-12-2006, 11:01 PM | #149 (permalink) |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Well, first off, not all female circumcision involves cutting off the clit as has been mentioned earlier in this thread. As for a religious basis, while it is not explicitly required, as far as I know, in any sacred texts, many of those who practice female genital mutilation believe there is a basis for it within their religion.
To address the accusation that those strongly opposed to male circumcision are so adament about it because they may feel that they have made the wrong choice for their children and are seeking reassurance from others, it's important to note that I have no children, nor do I have any concrete plans to have any, and there are others who have posted strong opinions against circumcision in this thread that, as far as I'm aware, also do not have children. Someone please honestly answer the following - it's been brought up before, but never actually addressed in this thread: What if I wanted to have my child's earlobes removed at birth because I thought ears without earlobes were more aesthetically pleasing? Would you fully support my right to this and not consider it an unnecessary and cruel practice? Earlobes have even less function than the foreskin does. To paraphrase UsTwo, I think pro-earlobe zealots would be quite amusing in their fervor over something which, at worst, makes it impossible to wear the typical earring. So, would you not only support my right to have my child's earlobes removed, but endorse the action as acceptable parenting as well? In fact, why not also remove my baby boy's nipples as well? They serve no purpose either. How many doctors do you think would perform such procedures? How many do you think wouldn't report me to child services for even SUGGESTING such procedures?
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
01-13-2006, 01:21 AM | #150 (permalink) | |||
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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(Note: This is a somewhat long post. If you do not intend to read the whole thing, I ask that you please at least scroll down to the final section, which I will mark with two horizontal rules, and read that. It is still relatively long, but it contains relevant information regarding the history of routine, non-religious circumcision.)
This is an interesting fact with regard to the religious perspective which I am posting not so much because I think it furthers the argument one way or another, but because I find it interesting, Quote:
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<hr> So, I find it interesting that America - what seems to be a "Christian" country - is so interested in circumcision, considering it was repeatedly condemned by Christians in the past. I believe the history of the rise of circumcision in the late 1800's provides many clues: (Note: this is a relatively long excerpt from an even longer article. I recommend that the entire article be read (look to the little word "quote" for the link, just above the box), but I feel that this section on the history of routine, non-religious circumcision in Western civilization is particularly important and am, therefore, quoting it here) Quote:
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 01-13-2006 at 04:50 AM.. |
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01-13-2006, 01:42 AM | #151 (permalink) |
Watcher
Location: Ohio
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Hi all, glad I could pop back in.
There are a few things here that need addressing. I’m not bothering with quotes as this isn’t about “billege v XXX” or something like that. First I’d like to address what this is about, and what it’s not. For me, on the “anti” side, it’s not about trying to convince a parent that had their boy cut that they’re bad people. Parents who chose to cut are not ogres, that much should be clear. They're parents who thought they were doing the right thing. I disagree with their course of action. However much I disagree, the last thing I would expect is a “pro” parent to suddenly agree with me, or anyone else who advocates against circumcision. For a parent to change sides, so to speak, they’d have to accept that they (if male) are mutilated, also that they chose to needlessly cut up their child’s genitalia. There's a lot of guilt to deal with if you change to saying, "Damn, I had my kid’s penis cut up for no good reason." Whereas, on the anti-cut side, I've had a lot of time to think about my dick. I’ve come from thinking all penises look like mine, to knowing that most in the world do not, to finding out mine was cut off with a knife, and left like it is now. I’ve thought it over, and I accept he's not "as delivered," that it's okay, and that my parents meant no harm. Come to think of it, I don’t think it ever occurred to me to feel angry at my parents about it. This choice, like every other they’ve made for me, was rooted in what they thought was best for me. If anything, they’re victims of the same societal mindset I’m advocating against. However, I've never pointed to my own child, and said "cut that there flesh of his genitals." Whereas, some of you parents have. The feelings involved in agreeing that was an incorrect action are surely intense. I’m sure that, because you’re human, no matter what decision you make there’s going to be some doubt. Any guy like me, pointing out a litany of reasons I feel the choice was wrong, should not be expecting a warm welcome. There’s going to be some strong feelings, and they’re going to come out. It happens. Additionally, it’s hard to get anyone (this certainly includes me) to look back at a major decision, and wonder if it was really right. To boot: this is a bit different than say, buying the wrong model TV or coffeemaker. You cut up some genitals, there’s no going back. To repeat: my goal here, if I can be said to have one, is not to convince a parent who chose circumcision they’re bad people, but to convince someone who’s not a parent yet to think about this critically. To think, really think, “should I cut off part of my son’s penis?” Other thoughts: The quality of this discussion had fallen in the last page or so, and that’s typical of most discussions. By the 4th page or so, you’re usually down to the hotheads going off topic, or getting desperate. We’re not there yet…but: We’ve got some obviously poor quality commenting going on. If you’re down to that, consider your next post more carefully. Let’s talk about some quasi-reasoning going on here, and move to discard it in the future. A few have attempted to dismiss the issue as they believe it’s not very important. ----Someone else is trying hard to convince you it is. The fact that someone you respect, as I’d hope we all do each other, thinks it’s a big deal should cause you to pause and wonder if they have reason to. Really examine your own thoughts, not just point out why they’re wrong. That’s such a cheap debate, and so typical. It’s not discussion, it’s “you’re wrong, no, you are, no you are.” Tricks such as calling another person’s thoughts “amusing” are just that, tricks. Every guy that chimes in “I like my cut dick just fine” is missing the point entirely. I like my cut dick too. No one’s saying you shouldn’t like your dick. Buy him McDonalds, and have a Coke and a smile. There’s no passion from the “pro” crowd “against” the “anti” crowd’s choice because there’s nothing solid to base the practice on. No one can tell me, and be solidly sure, that if I don’t snip my boy’s dick, something bad will happen. In fact, the vast majority of the world’s male population is surviving quite nicely with the hood left on. So did the cavemen, I believe the American Indians, and 2 billion Chinese are doing okay. There’s simply no reasons for the “pro” crowd to try to convince the “anti’s” to go get some scissors. However, the “anti” position clearly believes that circumcision is a harmful practice that disfigures a child’s genitals. Clearly, that’s more important to some people than “Coke vs. Diet.” To point out that one crowd seems more passionate than the other, and go from there to accusing them of arrogance born from fanaticism, is not a very valid statement. Additionally, to discredit a position because they’re “worked up about it” is similarly invalid. Many posts on the TFP center around a rally against American/world apathy. The last thing I find acceptable is the attempt discredit enthusiasm because it is enthusiasm. That somehow, because it matters to someone, and they’re taking time to express that, it’s not valid. I can’t understand that kind of inverse “not think.” It is to either parties credit that they are continuing to discuss this, in an intelligent application of energies. One or two have actually commented that the effort put into these posts is evidence that the poster cares too much about the subject. I’d like to do something most people don’t, and look at that statement thoughtfully, even though it’s been aimed at me. How much effort am I really putting into this? Do I feel strongly enough that circumcision is wrong that I’m writing my congressman? Nope. Am I protesting in the streets? Nope. Have I attacked any doctors for performing it? Nope. Maybe I’ve set up an “anti” web site? Nope. Am I even reaching a statistically significant audience with my posts? Nope. I am stating as clearly as I can, with as much diligence as I can, to a small audience of people that choose to come here for discussion. I’ve been around the TFP for a long time now, and I don’t think you can say I put this much effort into many threads. This subject I have strong feelings about, and a willingness to put effort into discussing it. Whoever condemns me for that does not belong on the TFP. Period. I don’t expect you who’ve chosen it to reverse, not at all. But, obviously, we’re not going to agree. My wife and I will choose not to do it to our son. I have posted what I hope are clear and interesting thoughts, and I hope that someone reads them and considers them before making this choice for their son. Until then, we’ll have to agree to disagree. *note* Agreeing to disagree was thoughtfully suggested by <b>healer</b>, who I viciously and wantonly stole it from.
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I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence: "My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend." Last edited by billege; 01-13-2006 at 02:08 AM.. Reason: grammer |
01-13-2006, 04:10 AM | #152 (permalink) |
Banned
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Since the stimulation of the penis is still more than anyone could need (and many can't handle anyway), the penis is still capable of issuing semen to impregnate, and expelling urine, I don't see where the real "negative" is. It loses no functionality. The only thing it changes is the type of sexual stimulation you feel, and MAYBE the intensity- but until we have a study done of uncut, adult, sexually active men, who then get cut, have sex again, and compare, anything else is personal opinion, and not based on any kind of science. Polling is worthless, and "assuming" the nerves do this and that and whatever based on theory is just that- theory.
Also... a very standard, frequently-practiced, and easily-rendered medical procedure is hardly something I would call "mutilation". I believe that the term "mutilated", in this case, is a matter of personal opinion, not fact. So if it's just opinion, mind your own business. Keep your hands off my kid's penis. Why do so many people feel compelled to dictate how others should run their lives? This whole topic is like Roe vs. Foreskin, for cryin' out loud. |
01-13-2006, 12:48 PM | #153 (permalink) |
Crazy
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Circumcision Deaths
Circumcision Deaths
From: http://www.cirp.org/library/death/ Some babies die of complications of circumcision.1 There has been a need to assemble in one convenient location information concerning death from complications of circumcision. This page is designed to fill that need. ... Doctors are highly motivated to conceal the true cause of circumcision death. Neonatal circumcision has no medical indication and is now considered to be an unnecessary6 non-therapeutic7 operation. It is unethical to carry out such operations on minors who cannot consent for themselves.8 Consequently, most doctors who have a baby die after a circumcision would prefer to attribute the results of his unethical operation to secondary causes, such as infection or bleeding, while ignoring the primary cause, which is the circumcision that resulted in the infection or bleeding. It is, therefore, very hard to identify the total number of deaths that occur from circumcision. One senses that one is seeing only the "tip of the iceberg," with the vast majority of deaths from circumcision being concealed. The deaths undoubtedly cause an increase in infant mortality. Male infant mortality is higher than female infant mortality. It is not known how much of this increased mortality is due to the practice of male circumcision. ... There is a risk and it is not possible to determine how bad it is but it is there. Would you risk the life of a child given any probabilty, if the procedure is not about saving his life. Last edited by Tachion; 01-13-2006 at 12:51 PM.. |
01-13-2006, 01:07 PM | #156 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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01-13-2006, 02:27 PM | #158 (permalink) | |
Lost
Location: One step closer to the padded cell...
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As far as medical, there is nothing wrong with me, never had any problems, and though it is true I don't know first hand the other side of the fence, I can honestly say I have no complaints about what I've got and who I am so I don't care to know the other side of the fence. tenchi
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01-13-2006, 02:36 PM | #159 (permalink) | |
Fade out
Location: in love
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on a side note: I'm really surprised this thread is so long! Who knew so many people had such strong opinions on it. That to me is facinating in and of itself. sweetpea
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abuse, boy, circumcision, sexual |
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