billege

Hi all, glad I could pop back in.

There are a few things here that need addressing.

I’m not bothering with quotes as this isn’t about “billege v XXX” or something like that.

First I’d like to address what this is about, and what it’s not.

For me, on the “anti” side, it’s not about trying to convince a parent that had their boy cut that they’re bad people. Parents who chose to cut are not ogres, that much should be clear.

They're parents who thought they were doing the right thing. I disagree with their course of action.

However much I disagree, the last thing I would expect is a “pro” parent to suddenly agree with me, or anyone else who advocates against circumcision. For a parent to change sides, so to speak, they’d have to accept that they (if male) are mutilated, also that they chose to needlessly cut up their child’s genitalia.

There's a lot of guilt to deal with if you change to saying, "Damn, I had my kid’s penis cut up for no good reason."

Whereas, on the anti-cut side, I've had a lot of time to think about my dick. I’ve come from thinking all penises look like mine, to knowing that most in the world do not, to finding out mine was cut off with a knife, and left like it is now.

I’ve thought it over, and I accept he's not "as delivered," that it's okay, and that my parents meant no harm. Come to think of it, I don’t think it ever occurred to me to feel angry at my parents about it. This choice, like every other they’ve made for me, was rooted in what they thought was best for me. If anything, they’re victims of the same societal mindset I’m advocating against.

However, I've never pointed to my own child, and said "cut that there flesh of his genitals." Whereas, some of you parents have. The feelings involved in agreeing that was an incorrect action are surely intense. I’m sure that, because you’re human, no matter what decision you make there’s going to be some doubt.

Any guy like me, pointing out a litany of reasons I feel the choice was wrong, should not be expecting a warm welcome. There’s going to be some strong feelings, and they’re going to come out. It happens.

Additionally, it’s hard to get anyone (this certainly includes me) to look back at a major decision, and wonder if it was really right. To boot: this is a bit different than say, buying the wrong model TV or coffeemaker. You cut up some genitals, there’s no going back.

To repeat: my goal here, if I can be said to have one, is not to convince a parent who chose circumcision they’re bad people, but to convince someone who’s not a parent yet to think about this critically. To think, really think, “should I cut off part of my son’s penis?”


Other thoughts:

The quality of this discussion had fallen in the last page or so, and that’s typical of most discussions. By the 4th page or so, you’re usually down to the hotheads going off topic, or getting desperate. We’re not there yet…but:

We’ve got some obviously poor quality commenting going on. If you’re down to that, consider your next post more carefully.

Let’s talk about some quasi-reasoning going on here, and move to discard it in the future.

A few have attempted to dismiss the issue as they believe it’s not very important.
----Someone else is trying hard to convince you it is. The fact that someone you respect, as I’d hope we all do each other, thinks it’s a big deal should cause you to pause and wonder if they have reason to. Really examine your own thoughts, not just point out why they’re wrong. That’s such a cheap debate, and so typical. It’s not discussion, it’s “you’re wrong, no, you are, no you are.”

Tricks such as calling another person’s thoughts “amusing” are just that, tricks.

Every guy that chimes in “I like my cut dick just fine” is missing the point entirely. I like my cut dick too. No one’s saying you shouldn’t like your dick. Buy him McDonalds, and have a Coke and a smile.

There’s no passion from the “pro” crowd “against” the “anti” crowd’s choice because there’s nothing solid to base the practice on.

No one can tell me, and be solidly sure, that if I don’t snip my boy’s dick, something bad will happen. In fact, the vast majority of the world’s male population is surviving quite nicely with the hood left on. So did the cavemen, I believe the American Indians, and 2 billion Chinese are doing okay.

There’s simply no reasons for the “pro” crowd to try to convince the “anti’s” to go get some scissors. However, the “anti” position clearly believes that circumcision is a harmful practice that disfigures a child’s genitals.

Clearly, that’s more important to some people than “Coke vs. Diet.” To point out that one crowd seems more passionate than the other, and go from there to accusing them of arrogance born from fanaticism, is not a very valid statement.

Additionally, to discredit a position because they’re “worked up about it” is similarly invalid. Many posts on the TFP center around a rally against American/world apathy. The last thing I find acceptable is the attempt discredit enthusiasm because it is enthusiasm. That somehow, because it matters to someone, and they’re taking time to express that, it’s not valid. I can’t understand that kind of inverse “not think.”

It is to either parties credit that they are continuing to discuss this, in an intelligent application of energies.

One or two have actually commented that the effort put into these posts is evidence that the poster cares too much about the subject. I’d like to do something most people don’t, and look at that statement thoughtfully, even though it’s been aimed at me.

How much effort am I really putting into this? Do I feel strongly enough that circumcision is wrong that I’m writing my congressman? Nope. Am I protesting in the streets? Nope. Have I attacked any doctors for performing it? Nope. Maybe I’ve set up an “anti” web site? Nope. Am I even reaching a statistically significant audience with my posts? Nope.

I am stating as clearly as I can, with as much diligence as I can, to a small audience of people that choose to come here for discussion.

I’ve been around the TFP for a long time now, and I don’t think you can say I put this much effort into many threads. This subject I have strong feelings about, and a willingness to put effort into discussing it.

Whoever condemns me for that does not belong on the TFP. Period.

I don’t expect you who’ve chosen it to reverse, not at all. But, obviously, we’re not going to agree. My wife and I will choose not to do it to our son. I have posted what I hope are clear and interesting thoughts, and I hope that someone reads them and considers them before making this choice for their son. Until then, we’ll have to agree to disagree.



*note*
Agreeing to disagree was thoughtfully suggested by <b>healer</b>, who I viciously and wantonly stole it from.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."