Self-help's big lie - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Suave · 01-06-2006, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

Chronic depression is not cured by therapy, it's treated by therapy. And medications, such as Xanax, the ever-popular Prozac or other mood stabilizers. Same goes for bipolar disorder, which is related. Neither one of these is curable, at this point.

You never specified chronic depression, did you? And besides that, as a treatment or a cure, therapy is more effective.

Quote:

As for your other point, you're mistaking the symptom for the cause. Sociopathic tendencies are generally caused by a deep-seated rage combined with a lack of ability to feel guilt or remorse. The over-inflated ego is a manifestation of the rage; the sociopath believes himself to be above the human swill, because he hates them so much.

First, you use the term "over-inflated ego"; if ego is akin to self-esteem, does that not mean that one can have too much of it? And even if you deny that, would it not be easier to execute anti-social behaviours if one has incredibly high self-esteem?

Quote:

Again, life is not a contest and if you're talking about value as related to others you're missing my point. My sense of self-worth has nothing to do with anyone else; I don't put myself on a ladder with the rest of the entire human race. It comes from knowing that I do have talents and abilities and I am valuable in my own right. It's not an issue of 'more' or 'less', it's simply recognizing that I have worth as a human being. Stemming from that is my acknowledgement of what I can and cannot do. I have valuable technical skills and a high aptitude for such. This makes me well suited to be an engineer, mechanic or technician. I have Crohn's disease, which makes me poorly suited for the military, police forces or other emergency services. So rather than beat my head against a brick wall trying to get into the police force, I do the best I can at being a technician. Unsurprisingly, I excel.

I said nothing about a contest, and it isn't for everyone; it's not for me. Everyone assigns value to everything, including other people. If you are an average person, you assign more value to your friends than to strangers, more value to humans than to insects, more value to your job than to your lawnmower, and so on. In this system, you assign value to yourself. If the value assigned to yourself is extremely high compared to that assigned to other people (such as the way most people assign their value compared to an insect's), then it would become significantly easier to act in the manner of a sociopath.

Saying that all you do is go "I have worth" is a cop-out. Worth and value, although vague concepts, are still heirarchies; you have created your own heirarchy and exist within it whether you are willing to admit it or not.

Ustwo · 01-06-2006, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

There goes the american dream.

Since when was the American dream being able to be equal to everyone in everything?

Martian · 01-06-2006, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suave

Saying that all you do is go "I have worth" is a cop-out. Worth and value, although vague concepts, are still heirarchies; you have created your own heirarchy and exist within it whether you are willing to admit it or not.

That's assuming that my worth is measured in relation to the worth of others. What if I measure my worth by something else, such as my ability to make money, or my ability to keep myself fed and clothed? Perhaps it's a reflexive thing; my worth is proven by the mere fact that I know more and am more capable than I was yesterday or a week ago or a year ago. This is actually how I operate, if you're interested.

Bill Gates has made far more money than I ever will. This does not make him a better person. George and Gracie had perhaps the best marriage of anyone in Hollywood, ever. Again, they are not better people than me for it. Ghandi has made a much larger mark on the world than I ever will. Again...

The tricky thing to the concept of value is that it requires a context. A pet dog, for example, may be worth very little financially if it comes from the pound. Emotionally, however, it may be the most valuable thing you own. Your own sense of self-worth and the confidence or lack thereof derived from it also depends largely on how you choose to measure it. You may choose to measure it financially and not be happy until you make the most money and have the most expensive car. You may choose to measure it in terms of renown and want to be famous. I choose to measure it by my own growth; so long as I continue to learn I continue to have value. I know more today than I did yesterday and I will know more still tomorrow. This, to me, is proof that I have value as a human being. I don't need to contrast it to others, because I may choose instead to measure others in a context that changes their standing. A man in a coma does not learn and thus has no value on that scale. However, he has people who love him, giving him an emotional value. The two are apples and oranges and there's myriad scales for comparing yourself to others; therefore, I submit that even attempting to make such a comparison is frivolous.

EDIT - I'm reconsidering my decision not to redress the issue of anti-social disorders. Yes, the increased ego (or self-esteem; I tend to use the two terms interchangably, but I do actually know the distinction to be made) will make such behaviour more likely, but that doesn't address the underlying cause. A chronic depressiv is that way due to an underlying physiological issue. A schizophrenic simalarly suffers from an underlying physiological issue and so does a sociopath. I maintain that the high self-esteem is not a cause, but a symptom. Rosa Parks carried a higher than average self-esteem for her demographic. She believed that she was every bit as worthy as the white middle class to sit at the front of the bus. There are very few who would call her ego a bad thing.

I still maintain that you're missing my point, in that you have the cause and effect reversed. The distorted sense of higher worth does not creat the sociopath; rather the sociopath creates the distorted sense of higher worth.

maximusveritas · 01-07-2006, 02:15 PM

Ustwo, you've got a lot of nerve calling me a dick.
I'm pretty sure that violates the rules of this message board.
In any case, you can trust me to ignore you from now on.
All I have to say is that only one of us has been to medical school and that's me. I don't know what your experiences have been, but they do not hold true for most schools that I have had associations with. Hopefully, you will refrain from making blanket generalizations like that again.

Tachion · 01-09-2006, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Far from helping his disciples, the empowerment guru does them a disservice by making them "think positive" about a situation in which the odds of success are exceedingly low. As top management consultant Jay Kurtz argues: "The most dangerous person in corporate America is the highly enthusiastic incompetent.

The most dangerous person is the one who tells you not to try because the 'odds are low' or they think you are incompetent. It is this negative attitude projected as fact, which harms people the most.

You will never make money at that. You don't know enough to try that.. etc....

In every case there was a person who ignored those who told them to be 'realistic' and succeeded. Yes some failed as well, but you will never know if you are incompetent unless you try, and you won't try your best if you are not enthusiastic about it.

filtherton · 01-09-2006, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Since when was the American dream being able to be equal to everyone in everything?

The american dream presupposes equal opportunity to succeed.

Cynthetiq · 01-09-2006, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

The american dream presupposes equal opportunity to succeed.

It also presupposes equal opportunity to FAIL.

The american dream presupposes opporunity not success.

filtherton · 01-09-2006, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

It also presupposes equal opportunity to FAIL.

The american dream presupposes opporunity not success.

I don't recall any mention of opportunity to fail in the american dream. I don't think living in homeless shelters or losing your house because one of your kids got a serious illness is part of the american dream. The american dream is necessarily optimistic because to emphasize the plight of the millions of people for whom it is hopelessly out of reach would be self defeating for those who subscribe to it.

Besides, the part i quoted sums up the american dream just fine.

So what? You didn't know that the american dream is a lie too?

Suave · 01-09-2006, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

I still maintain that you're missing my point, in that you have the cause and effect reversed. The distorted sense of higher worth does not creat the sociopath; rather the sociopath creates the distorted sense of higher worth.

I'm not missing your point. I just disagree. You've restated it so much that it would take a blind retard to miss it.

I'm just going to leave a well-known phrase as my last argument: "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Cynthetiq · 01-09-2006, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I don't recall any mention of opportunity to fail in the american dream. I don't think living in homeless shelters or losing your house because one of your kids got a serious illness is part of the american dream. The american dream is necessarily optimistic because to emphasize the plight of the millions of people for whom it is hopelessly out of reach would be self defeating for those who subscribe to it.

Besides, the part i quoted sums up the american dream just fine.

So what? You didn't know that the american dream is a lie too?

having relatives who came here with $20 in their pocket, no i see the dream every day that I meet with them.

I see people from Mexico crossing the borders illegally becasue the oppurtunity to be better than the villages they came from is more than enough for most.

It offers and presupposes oppurnity, not guarantees of success.

filtherton · 01-09-2006, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

having relatives who came here with $20 in their pocket, no i see the dream every day that I meet with them.

I see people from Mexico crossing the borders illegally becasue the oppurtunity to be better than the villages they came from is more than enough for most.

It offers and presupposes oppurnity, not guarantees of success.

It could just as easily be said that most self help presupposes self worth, not a guarantee of personal success.

I see the emptiness of the dream. It's reflected in the increasing gap between the wealthy and the poor and the shrinking middle class. Your twenty dollared relatives could have just as easily toiled in obscurity just below the poverty line for the rest of their lives.

This is where it started:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

You cannot have a life plan predicated on the belief that everything is equally achievable to you — especially if that same message has been sold indiscriminately to all comers.

How does this not describe the american dream?

Beccarain · 01-10-2006, 06:16 AM

This is a great thread . . . please excuse the interruption, but I'm gonna refer back to the article for a minute.

There is no doubt whatsoever that our education system in the US has major problems (and needs a major overhaul, not just more taxpayer money thrown its way) but I disagree with the author's lumping self-help, our education system, and alternative medicine together like this.

Self-help has its place in our society, because, let's face it, lots of us had less-than-stellar upbringings and it is up to us as adults to get on and make our way in life. I'm not talking about the mainstream hype as presented with the likes of Oprah and Dr. Phil; I'm referring to genuine help with sorting things out, taking personal responsibility, examining our strengths and weakness for what they are, and finding our paths in life.

Regarding the growth in the field of alternative medicine -- the main reason people are turning away from western medical "care" -- and I use that term loosely -- is that our mainstream medical doctors typically do not treat us as people; they medicate symptoms. I believe our system of medical care for emergencies is the best. However, I cannot count the number of times MDs have sent me on my way after spending a whopping 30 seconds with me with a prescription in hand for drugs (including antibiotics for sinus infections and colds and blood pressure medicine for slightly elevated blood pressure) without addressing the underlying cause of the problems. As opposed to our medical system, alternative medicine helps people with chronic conditions because the practitioners are more likely to see the person, and find the cause of the problem, address it, and help restore the person. Sure, there are quacks in alt medicine like in any other profession. Overall, though, alternative medicine definitely helps people where mainstream medicine cannot, and does not.

And I completely agree with Cynthetiq: In America, it's about equal opportunity to achieve, or fail, not guarantees of success. This is tied to another big problem we have -- this whole notion of entitlements as opposed to working and earning our way.

OK, I've said what I wanted to say. Carry on.

Cynthetiq · 01-10-2006, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

It could just as easily be said that most self help presupposes self worth, not a guarantee of personal success.

I see the emptiness of the dream. It's reflected in the increasing gap between the wealthy and the poor and the shrinking middle class. Your twenty dollared relatives could have just as easily toiled in obscurity just below the poverty line for the rest of their lives.

How does this not describe the american dream?

And the poverty line is better here in the US than it is in many other countries, even our southern neighbor Mexico. Success means something different to you obviously. For some it's as simple as being able to have an apartment, accessible healthcare, accessible education, and access to a labor market that pays wages 10x better than where they came.

It does describe the American dream, but what does the American dream mean to you? For my relatives who came over here it meant an opportunity. That's it. Success is not guaranteed. It's presupposed that here it is greater than 0% opporutnity that they had in their homeland.

As they say in the dieting and excercising infomercials, Results Not Typical.

filtherton · 01-10-2006, 11:39 AM

To me the american dream is the idea that everyone has an opportunity to succeed. I don't think that this is true in any kind of meaningful sense. Certainly many people do have opportunities to succeed, but many people don't, even in terms of the conditions you outlined.

Healthcare isn't always accessible, apartments aren't always accessible, education is becoming more expensive and less accessible, and the labor market is what it is. Even if you make ten times what you could have made elsewhere, if you have to spend 12 times what you had to spend elsewhere it doesn't amount to much. I see what you're saying, i just disagree that it makes sense to assume that the opportunity applies to everyone.

Cynthetiq · 01-10-2006, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

To me the american dream is the idea that everyone has an opportunity to succeed. I don't think that this is true in any kind of meaningful sense. Certainly many people do have opportunities to succeed, but many people don't, even in terms of the conditions you outlined.

Healthcare isn't always accessible, apartments aren't always accessible, education is becoming more expensive and less accessible, and the labor market is what it is. Even if you make ten times what you could have made elsewhere, if you have to spend 12 times what you had to spend elsewhere it doesn't amount to much. I see what you're saying, i just disagree that it makes sense to assume that the opportunity applies to everyone.

compared to most 3rd world countries... it's much better than most.

The opportunity applies to anyone trying to better themselves by leaving their own homeland and emmigrating elsewhere, from America to Germany to Iceland.

As far as success, again, results not typical.

filtherton · 01-10-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

compared to most 3rd world countries... it's much better than most.

The opportunity applies to anyone trying to better themselves by leaving their own homeland and emmigrating elsewhere, from America to Germany to Iceland.

As far as success, again, results not typical.

Results not typical?

So essentially, what you're saying is that the american dream has the same value as the promises of a slim fast commercial? And then you're holding this dream up as though it is some sort of beacon of hope for the world's downtrodden?

When i think of the american dream I see someone attempting to sell a promise to masses of people when they damn well know that that promise will essentially be meaningless to the vast majority of them. Then I see that same salesperson blaming the people he fooled when they don't succeed like he tricked them into thinking he would. I also see many of the people who would presume to spread the message of the american dream complain when masses of illegals sneak over the borders to try and cash in. I see this and i think, "Wow, that's kind've fucked up. Maybe everyone would be better served by a more honest approach to explaining what things are really like in america. Something like: 'Come to america, where some of your dreams might come true if you're lucky'"

Not everyone gets the same opportunity to succeed or fail in america. There are certain things make the opportunities available to people fundamentally unequal. Just like everywhere else in the universe. America acts like it invented opportunity when actually it was just the first country to co-opt it into a successful national marketing campaign.

Cynthetiq · 01-10-2006, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

Results not typical?

So essentially, what you're saying is that the american dream has the same value as the promises of a slim fast commercial? And then you're holding this dream up as though it is some sort of beacon of hope for the world's downtrodden?

When i think of the american dream I see someone attempting to sell a promise to masses of people when they damn well know that that promise will essentially be meaningless to the vast majority of them. Then I see that same salesperson blaming the people he fooled when they don't succeed like he tricked them into thinking he would. I also see many of the people who would presume to spread the message of the american dream complain when masses of illegals sneak over the borders to try and cash in. I see this and i think, "Wow, that's kind've fucked up. Maybe everyone would be better served by a more honest approach to explaining what things are really like in america. Something like: 'Come to america, where some of your dreams might come true if you're lucky'"

Not everyone gets the same opportunity to succeed or fail in america. There are certain things make the opportunities available to people fundamentally unequal. Just like everywhere else in the universe. America acts like it invented opportunity when actually it was just the first country to co-opt it into a successful national marketing campaign.

an example of the American dream unequalness..

Quote:

A refugee from Georgia, in the former Soviet Union, he left with a wave of immigrants in 1973. Mr. Sapir lived in Israel, Germany and Louisville, Ky., before arriving in New York in 1976.

After three years as a cabdriver, he opened an electronics store at 200 Fifth Avenue near Madison Square Park where he often sold products to visiting Russian diplomats. His relationship with one customer, a Soviet oil minister, he said, enabled him to begin selling fertilizer, and eventually, oil contracts, in Europe.

In the early 1990's, Mr. Sapir decided to invest in New York real estate, buying a building downtown, on John Street, for $2.2 million and selling it a year later for nearly three times that. Since then, he has bought several other buildings in Manhattan.

filtherton · 01-10-2006, 01:56 PM

Yeah, and?

Like you said, "results not typical" a.k.a. "only a fool would bank on this". They don't have newspaper articles about all the immigrants who aren't making connections with soviet oil ministers because there isn't enough paper and nobody wants to read about "failure" because it so common so as to be mundane.

Cynthetiq · 01-10-2006, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

Yeah, and?

Like you said, "results not typical" a.k.a. "only a fool would bank on this". They don't have newspaper articles about all the immigrants who aren't making connections with soviet oil ministers because there isn't enough paper and nobody wants to read about "failure" because it so common so as to be mundane.

correct, but people still are going to places that they think they have a better shot than where they are.

The example before cites an extreme example, but there are others that just wanted to give their kids a better opportunity at education for some that was enough.

ubertuber · 01-10-2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

To me the american dream is the idea that everyone has an opportunity to succeed. I don't think that this is true in any kind of meaningful sense. Certainly many people do have opportunities to succeed, but many people don't, even in terms of the conditions you outlined.

Healthcare isn't always accessible, apartments aren't always accessible, education is becoming more expensive and less accessible, and the labor market is what it is.

It seems that you don't really believe that the american dream is about opportunity. Accessible in the land of opportunity doesn't mean that something is guaranteed or in hand, just that it is possible. From that standpoint, apartments, healthcare, and education are always possible... if certain conditions are met. Mostly those conditions involve hard work and some risk and/or sacrifice (educational debt, for example).

I would have said that the american dream is that improvement is possible through effort. Regardless of the excess that some people get through luck, I think my version of the american dream is alive and well.

Of course, we could simply have different ideas about this... I suspect this may be the case.

Cynthetiq · 01-10-2006, 03:09 PM

two threads on the American Dream:

Are You Living the American Dream?

The American Dream...Is...?

an excerpt from the person that coined the phrase.

Quote:

“If, as I have said, the things already listed [i.e. filling up the physical space of America] were all we had had to contribute, America would have made no distinctive and unique gift to mankind. But there has been also the American dream, that dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for every man, with opportunity for each according to his ability or achievement. . . . It is not a dream of motor cars and high wages merely, but a dream of a social order in which each man and each woman shall be able to attain to the fullest stature of which they are innately capable, and be recognized by others for what they are, regardless of the fortuitous circumstances of birth or position.” (404)
“No, the American dream that has lured tens of millions of all nations to our shores in the past century has not been a dream of merely material plenty, though that has doubtless counted heavily. It has been much more than that. It has been a dream of being able to grow to fullest development as man and woman, unhampered by the barriers which had slowly been erected in older civilizations, unrepressed by social orders which had developed for the benefit of classes than for the simple human being of any and every class. And that dream has been realized more fully in actual life here than anywhere else, though very imperfectly even among ourselves” (405)

01-07-2006, 02:15 PM	#44 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	Ustwo, you've got a lot of nerve calling me a dick. I'm pretty sure that violates the rules of this message board. In any case, you can trust me to ignore you from now on. All I have to say is that only one of us has been to medical school and that's me. I don't know what your experiences have been, but they do not hold true for most schools that I have had associations with. Hopefully, you will refrain from making blanket generalizations like that again.

01-10-2006, 06:16 AM	#52 (permalink)
Beccarain Upright Location: Right here, right now	This is a great thread . . . please excuse the interruption, but I'm gonna refer back to the article for a minute. There is no doubt whatsoever that our education system in the US has major problems (and needs a major overhaul, not just more taxpayer money thrown its way) but I disagree with the author's lumping self-help, our education system, and alternative medicine together like this. Self-help has its place in our society, because, let's face it, lots of us had less-than-stellar upbringings and it is up to us as adults to get on and make our way in life. I'm not talking about the mainstream hype as presented with the likes of Oprah and Dr. Phil; I'm referring to genuine help with sorting things out, taking personal responsibility, examining our strengths and weakness for what they are, and finding our paths in life. Regarding the growth in the field of alternative medicine -- the main reason people are turning away from western medical "care" -- and I use that term loosely -- is that our mainstream medical doctors typically do not treat us as people; they medicate symptoms. I believe our system of medical care for emergencies is the best. However, I cannot count the number of times MDs have sent me on my way after spending a whopping 30 seconds with me with a prescription in hand for drugs (including antibiotics for sinus infections and colds and blood pressure medicine for slightly elevated blood pressure) without addressing the underlying cause of the problems. As opposed to our medical system, alternative medicine helps people with chronic conditions because the practitioners are more likely to see the person, and find the cause of the problem, address it, and help restore the person. Sure, there are quacks in alt medicine like in any other profession. Overall, though, alternative medicine definitely helps people where mainstream medicine cannot, and does not. And I completely agree with Cynthetiq: In America, it's about equal opportunity to achieve, or fail, not guarantees of success. This is tied to another big problem we have -- this whole notion of entitlements as opposed to working and earning our way. OK, I've said what I wanted to say. Carry on.

01-10-2006, 11:39 AM	#54 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	To me the american dream is the idea that everyone has an opportunity to succeed. I don't think that this is true in any kind of meaningful sense. Certainly many people do have opportunities to succeed, but many people don't, even in terms of the conditions you outlined. Healthcare isn't always accessible, apartments aren't always accessible, education is becoming more expensive and less accessible, and the labor market is what it is. Even if you make ten times what you could have made elsewhere, if you have to spend 12 times what you had to spend elsewhere it doesn't amount to much. I see what you're saying, i just disagree that it makes sense to assume that the opportunity applies to everyone.

01-10-2006, 01:56 PM	#58 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Yeah, and? Like you said, "results not typical" a.k.a. "only a fool would bank on this". They don't have newspaper articles about all the immigrants who aren't making connections with soviet oil ministers because there isn't enough paper and nobody wants to read about "failure" because it so common so as to be mundane.