Self-help's big lie - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Cynthetiq · 01-05-2006, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Self-help's big lie
LINK
By Steve Salerno, Steve Salerno's latest book is "SHAM: How the Self-Help Movement Made America Helpless."

EVER SINCE the United States began weaning itself off the sociological junk food of victimization and its culture of blame, the pop-psychology menu increasingly has been flavored by an antithetical concept — empowerment — that can be summarized as: Believe it, achieve it.

Nowadays, Fortune 500 conglomerates draft business plans with bullet points drawn from Laker coach-cum-inspirational guru Phil Jackson's Zen optimism. Couples write partnership covenants based on the utopian blather of John Gray. Millions of everyday Americans owe their feelings of "personal power" to erstwhile firewalker Tony Robbins, arguably the father of today's mass-market empowerment. And there is Oprah, who is seldom categorized as a guru in her own right but whose status as the movement's eminence grise is beyond dispute: The road to self-help's promised land, and a bite of its $10-billion fruit (as tracked by Marketdata Enterprises), runs straight through Harpo Productions. The nostrums delivered by these and other self-help celebrities form a cultural given, an uncontested — and, we are led to believe, incontestable — foundation for today's starry-eyed zeitgeist.

Lost in the adulation is the downside of being uplifted. In truth, the overselling of personal empowerment — the hyping of hope — may be the great unsung irony of modern American life, destined to disappoint as surely as the pity party that it was meant to replace.

In U.S. schools, the crusade to imbue kids with that most slippery of notions — self-esteem — has been unambiguously disastrous (and has recently been disavowed by a number of its loudest early voices). Self-esteem-based education presupposed that a healthy ego would help students achieve greatness, even if the mechanisms necessary to instill self-esteem undercut scholarship. Over time, it became clear that what such policies promote is not academic greatness but a bizarre disconnect between perceived self-worth and provable skill.

Over a 20-year span beginning in the early 1970s, the average SAT score fell by 35 points. But in that same period, the contingent of college-bound seniors who boasted an A or B average jumped from 28% to an astonishing 83%, as teachers felt increasing pressure to adopt more "supportive" grading policies. Tellingly, in a 1989 study of comparative math skills among students in eight nations, Americans ranked lowest in overall competence, Koreans highest — but when researchers asked the students how good they thought they were at math, the results were exactly opposite: Americans highest, Koreans lowest. Meanwhile, data from 1999's omnibus Third International Mathematics and Science Study, ranking 12th-graders from 23 nations, put U.S. students in 20th place, besting only South Africa, Lithuania and Cyprus.

Still, the U.S. keeps dressing its young in their emperors' new egos, passing them on to the next set of empowering curricula. If you teach at the college level, as I do, at some point you will be confronted with a student seeking redress over the grade you gave him because "I'm pre-med!" Not until such students reach med school do they encounter truly inelastic standards: a comeuppance for them but a reprieve for those who otherwise might find ourselves anesthetized beneath their second-rate scalpel.

The larger point is that society has embraced such concepts as self-esteem and confidence despite scant evidence that they facilitate positive outcomes. The work of psychologists Roy Baumeister and Martin Seligman suggests that often, high self-worth is actually a marker for negative behavior, as found in sociopaths and drug kingpins. Even in its less extreme manifestations, confidence may easily be expressed in the kind of braggadocio — "I'm fine just the way I am, thank you" — that stunts growth, yielding chronic failure.

Then again, one never really fails in this brave new (euphemistic) world. "There is no such thing as failure," posits a core maxim of neuro-linguistic programming, the regimen from which Robbins drew much of his patter. Among empowered thinkers, reality becomes an arbitrary affair, with each individual deciding his or her personal truth.

Consider healthcare, where vague notions of personal empowerment are a key factor in the startling American exodus from traditional medicine. A comprehensive study reported in the medical journal JAMA pegged the number of patient visits to alternative-medicine practitioners at 629 million a year, easily eclipsing the 386 million visits to conventional MDs. In theory, these defections represent a desire for "self-empowered healing" that will "put people in charge of their healthcare destiny," to quote one holistic health website. In practice, the trend puts hordes of Americans at the mercy of quacks who shrewdly position themselves at the nexus of mind and body. It behooves us to remember that feeling better about a health problem is not the same as doing better.

Nonetheless, with such highly visible exponents of latter-day empowerment as Robbins, Winfrey and Winfrey's principal protege, Dr. Phil McGraw, fanning the flames, a generation has come of age on the belief that a positive mental attitude will carry the day. Far from helping his disciples, the empowerment guru does them a disservice by making them "think positive" about a situation in which the odds of success are exceedingly low. As top management consultant Jay Kurtz argues: "The most dangerous person in corporate America is the highly enthusiastic incompetent. He's running faster in the wrong direction, doing horribly counterproductive things with winning enthusiasm."

You cannot have a life plan predicated on the belief that everything is equally achievable to you — especially if that same message has been sold indiscriminately to all comers. In the grand scheme of things, knowing one's limitations may be even more important than knowing one's talents.

You cannot have a life plan predicated on the belief that everything is equally achievable to you — especially if that same message has been sold indiscriminately to all comers. In the grand scheme of things, knowing one's limitations may be even more important than knowing one's talents.
While encouraging people to TRY to achieve it is important to make sure that people learn where there limitations are so that they can help themselves as best as they can and know when to ask for help. I find this last paragraph to be very compelling in people knowing just where their bounderies are.

Ustwo · 01-05-2006, 11:51 AM

Cynth - I'm surprised at you, don't you know we are all equal and deserving of greatness in anything if we just try?

Great article, but one thing is saddly mistaken.

Quote:

Not until such students reach med school do they encounter truly inelastic standards: a comeuppance for them but a reprieve for those who otherwise might find ourselves anesthetized beneath their second-rate scalpel.

Only applies if you are white or asian, others they still let pass.

BigBen · 01-05-2006, 11:58 AM

I see myself quoting the words of my leadership prof:

"Dare to be Average."

Think about that for a minute. He had this concept pegged from the start, and it was really challenging to understand his rationale. I had been surrounded by a hyper-competitive environment for so long that I had trouble accepting my abilities and achieving inner peace.

Once I realized that grades were not important but rather the journey of knowledge was I able to let go and succeed. What do I succeed at, you ask? Being average.

Remember: Exactly half of the people (minus 1) you meet will be below average...

Poppinjay · 01-05-2006, 11:59 AM

I dislike many of the self-help gurus. However, there are other glaring errors there too. SAT scores have not been in a 20 year decline. They have gone up and down from 1975-1995. Up through the end of the 70's, down through the early 80's, back up from the late 80's to early 90's. And this is during a time that the percentage of students increased steadily, so just on those stats alone, they should have gone down due to commonality. But they didn't, and the test got tougher in 1975.

I really don't like how Salerno equates positive self worth as a link to "sociopath" and "drug kingpin" behaviour. Hyperbole has a new #1 lover. Maybe we should tell all of the kids every day that they are worthless and weak. That'll make them Solid Citizens.

BigBen · 01-05-2006, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

...Only applies if you are white or asian, others they still let pass.

I don't get it. Medical schools practice racism?

Suave · 01-05-2006, 12:01 PM

Your title really does fit you well UsTwo.

Ben: He's talking about affirmative action.

flstf · 01-05-2006, 12:02 PM

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As top management consultant Jay Kurtz argues: "The most dangerous person in corporate America is the highly enthusiastic incompetent. He's running faster in the wrong direction, doing horribly counterproductive things with winning enthusiasm."

Reminds me of the old saying:
"Behind every successful organization stands at least one person who knows the secret of how to keep the managers away from anything truly important."

Ustwo · 01-05-2006, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

I really don't like how Salerno equates positive self worth as a link to "sociopath" and "drug kingpin" behaviour. Hyperbole has a new #1 lover. Maybe we should tell all of the kids every day that they are worthless and weak. That'll make them Solid Citizens.

For years the psychobabble types assumed that the reason people were sociopaths was due to low self esteem, but when it was actually STUDIED it turned out to be just the opposite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBen

I don't get it. Medical schools practice racism?

Yes, they do.

Cynthetiq · 01-05-2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

For years the psychobabble types assumed that the reason people were sociopaths was due to low self esteem, but when it was actually STUDIED it turned out to be just the opposite.

Very true.

Unabomber, McVeigh, and John Wayne Gacy all had high self esteem.

JustJess · 01-05-2006, 12:07 PM

Actually, the kids' movie The Incredibles illustrated this concept perfectly. No one can be special, no one is better at anything - which is just bullshit. The trends in American teaching today are frustrating beyond all belief - not only are the kids not learning, their parents are becoming monsters to deal with. For gods' sakes, if you get it wrong, it's WRONG! Learn the right answer! 2+2=4 is not open to feel-good interpretation, for fuck's sake!

Ahem, sorry.

It's appalling that we are the most powerful country in the world, and our education levels are laughable.

Poppinjay - don't forget, in the late 90's they made the SAT tests easier, too, IIRC. The scoring was softened - I don't remember the actual changes, but the result was better scores.

BigBen · 01-05-2006, 12:08 PM

OOOOooooooh. I get it.

I thought there was something more to it than "In my opinion...." that was unintentionally left out.

Poppinjay · 01-05-2006, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

Very true.

Unabomber, McVeigh, and John Wayne Gacy all had high self esteem.

And... they were batshit psycho. Let's not leave that part out. I'm all for giving an F were it's due, but warranted high self esteem can only be a good thing. Unwarranted high self esteem isn't really high self esteem, it's delusional self awareness.

I recognize that in the adult world there is no, "everybody gets a trophy day". In fact, to get to where you want to be int he world, you have to believe in yourself and have respect for your own abilities. That is true high self esteem.

kutulu · 01-05-2006, 12:50 PM

What a load of crap. Sure, let's devalue our kids and wreck their confidence in themselves.

Charlatan · 01-05-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJess

For gods' sakes, if you get it wrong, it's WRONG! Learn the right answer! 2+2=4 is not open to feel-good interpretation, for fuck's sake!

It really isn't as simple as that. Most studies in education suggest that what one child can grasp at grade one another will not until grade three. In the end, most kids catch up by grade four (for example).

Failing the kid in grade one wasn't the solution, rather it is important to track and adjust for a different learing curve... a more long term curve.

Education is not one size fits all.

Ustwo · 01-05-2006, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

It really isn't as simple as that. Most studies in education suggest that what one child can grasp at grade one another will not until grade three. In the end, most kids catch up by grade four (for example).

Failing the kid in grade one wasn't the solution, rather it is important to track and adjust for a different learing curve... a more long term curve.

Education is not one size fits all.

But at some point you have to stop putting a gold star on their paper with an A for effort.

JustJess · 01-05-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

It really isn't as simple as that. Most studies in education suggest that what one child can grasp at grade one another will not until grade three. In the end, most kids catch up by grade four (for example).

Failing the kid in grade one wasn't the solution, rather it is important to track and adjust for a different learing curve... a more long term curve.

Education is not one size fits all.

And I would never say that it is. It's that everyone is so concerned with using a green pen instead of a red one, they're not concerned with actually TEACHING. It may take one kid more time, but there's nothing wrong with that. My issue is not that it takes some longer - it's that the ones who are quicker are being penalized for the whole group. Just as some learn slower, others learn faster - and adjustments need to be made for BOTH. Every school has learning disabled classes along with regular classes, but not every school has gifted classes to go with.

If I'm reading at an 8th grade level when I'm 8, don't hold me back with the rest of the class.

And if I'm getting stuff wrong, it's wrong - that's nothing to do with what a valuable person I am, it's just about learning to understand it and do it right. But they're making it into a self-esteem issue that it never was, and never needed to be. How can I learn if I am only coddled and never taught?

WillyPete · 01-05-2006, 01:26 PM

They're starting to promote this crap in the UK now.
The kids haven't failed at something, they've simply experienced a 'postponed success'.

BS.

If you're late for a hot date you're not 'postponing sex', you're being bad mannered and, well, late.

Ustwo · 01-05-2006, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBen

OOOOooooooh. I get it.

I thought there was something more to it than "In my opinion...." that was unintentionally left out.

I've talked about it before, no need to rehash it again.

Suave · 01-06-2006, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

And... they were batshit psycho. Let's not leave that part out. I'm all for giving an F were it's due, but warranted high self esteem can only be a good thing. Unwarranted high self esteem isn't really high self esteem, it's delusional self awareness.

I recognize that in the adult world there is no, "everybody gets a trophy day". In fact, to get to where you want to be int he world, you have to believe in yourself and have respect for your own abilities. That is true high self esteem.

I think there are limits though, Poppin. Sure there's "I am a great person" high self-esteem, but what happens when it goes to the extreme? The extreme of it could potentially lead them to believe that everyone else (or nearly everyone else) is a part of a human stain; completely worthless, except to further their own goals.

pan6467 · 01-06-2006, 01:47 AM

There's a big difference between "self-help" and treating everyone equally or expecting people to be able to achieve the same goals.

Self help teaches you that you can achieve whatever you want, and I firmly believe this. I watched my dad do it. You can be very aware of your weaknesses and strengths and play to your strengths and achieve anything.

Treating everyone the same and believing everyone can achieve the same goals in the same amount of time is ridiculous, especially in school, where a child must be given the time to learn their strengths and weaknesses and learn to use both. I am a firm believer in giving grades not based on what others do but on the individuals ability and effort. Had this happened in school maybe I would have tried harder, I knew I was smarter than most, and I knew I could do better than most, but I didn't apply myself because my effort wasn't going to be noticed anymore or less than anyone else's.

Looking back on it, I regret that I didn't achieve more just for myself, but that is what happens when all kids are treated equally. It's what happens when all adults are treated equally, until they reach some form of self awareness and inner drive.

Yes, some kids develop it earlier than others. And some kids push the kids so that when they are out in the real world the kid as an adult have problems achieving, or with drugs, or with self esteem, or with intimacy or whatever because noone is there to push them anymore and they didn't learn to push themselves.

This is where self-help comes in. It's not whether what the author truly says is right or wrong..... IT'S WHAT THE READER BELIVES. If I read a book and it tells me I can achieve anything I desire and I truly believe what is written then I will achieve what I desire.

Did the book or technique help me? Perhaps, but more or less it was inside of me to begin with and the book or technique brought that out. So "self-help" is not BS it's just what it says....... you help yourself, but sometimes that stimulus or raised belief is needed and necessary.

Martian · 01-06-2006, 02:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suave

I think there are limits though, Poppin. Sure there's "I am a great person" high self-esteem, but what happens when it goes to the extreme? The extreme of it could potentially lead them to believe that everyone else (or nearly everyone else) is a part of a human stain; completely worthless, except to further their own goals.

People will conclude that if they have high self-esteem.

...if they're batshit psycho. Being a sociopath is a mental disorder. Just as a depressive can't be cured by 'thinking happy thoughts', a sociopath would've been a sociopath whether or not they received mroe beatings as a child.

I'm of the firm belief that self-esteem is important in everything you do. Being unrealistic will hinder you, knowing your strength and your limits will never do the same. Believing that you can achieve something doesn't make it happen, it's the hard work that does. I can be a CEO if I'm willing to put the work into starting and growing a company. Believing I can do it will not make it happen, but if I don't believe it can happen and will happen if I put that hard work in, I'm not going to bother. That work includes learning about how to effectively run a company, making contacts, establishing a client base, etc ad nauseum. The amount of work is monumental and it's the sort of thing that would probably span years, possibly decades. That doesn't mean I can't do it.

I've gotten many jobs solely due to my confidence. I know I can do the work and do it well and that communicates in cover letters and interviews. I've excelled at the same jobs for the same reason. I know I can, I know I want to and I will put in the work to learn the ropes and do the best that I can. I walked into a warehouse with no previous experience in the field and was somewhat out of shape at the time. Within two months I was posting better metrics than guys who'd been there for years. That isn't solely because I believed I could, but if I hadn't believed that it wouldnt've happened. Shortly after, I decided the work wasn't for me, walked into a call centre and did the same thing. My job, while officially tech support included sales as a large component and that was something I'd never done before. Again, within two months I was excelling far beyond what people who'd done the job their entire lives were managing. I left that job because I didn't agree with the practices the company used and because I didn't want to do sales anymore. I started my own business; it shows every indication of succeeding, but I've recently decided that the amount of time and energy I have to devote to it isn't worth it to me right now, so I'm in the job market again. I may eventually revisit business ownership, or perhaps I'll find something else I prefer. I don't know what my next job will be, but I know that I'll do well at it.

Self confidence isn't believing you're better than everyone else. It's believing that you are valuable. It's not connected to anyone else's worth. As much as some would have you believe otherwise, life is not a competition.

tecoyah · 01-06-2006, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

Self confidence isn't believing you're better than everyone else. It's believing that you are valuable. It's not connected to anyone else's worth. As much as some would have you believe otherwise, life is not a competition.

Well Worth Repeating

hulk · 01-06-2006, 04:11 AM

One wonders how kids who get 'postponed successes' will act when a 'postponed success' gets their sorry arse fired from a job. Shizzle like that also assumes that a person will immediately stop developing once they leave school, so we'd better not fuck up their childhood! Quick, wrap them all with cotton wool!

Of course, as any adult will tell you, that's just untrue. For instance, I learnt more useful life and social skills in the 12 months following my drop-out of year 12 than in the five years prior. Specifically, how to act like an adult, and not a stupid kid.

little_tippler · 01-06-2006, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBen

I see myself quoting the words of my leadership prof:

"Dare to be Average."

Think about that for a minute. He had this concept pegged from the start, and it was really challenging to understand his rationale. I had been surrounded by a hyper-competitive environment for so long that I had trouble accepting my abilities and achieving inner peace.

Once I realized that grades were not important but rather the journey of knowledge was I able to let go and succeed. What do I succeed at, you ask? Being average.

Remember: Exactly half of the people (minus 1) you meet will be below average...

This is a sensible vision of things I think. I was not educated in the States but I can relate to this thread.

I think all over the world, putting aside self-help which can be a good thing most of the time, people are being fed this message that we are all destined for greatness and for getting the BBD. This expression was said to me by an American friend - it's the Bigger Better Deal. Because of this message, we are all thinking we always want better and more. We are never happy in ourselves, and with what we have already.

There always has to be more. Okay sometimes there is more, but I believe that is not where happiness lies. Applying this not only to education, but to life in general, and also particularly relationships, why do you think more and more people don't get married, get divorced, and generally break up at the drop of a hat? It's all made too easy and we are all so empowered and full of rights that we have to have them (those things we are "all" entitled to apparently) otherwise it's not worth it, that we don't try that hard to make what we have be enough to make us happy....and sometimes all it takes is a little compromise, and learning to be a little more selfless. I'm not saying people should sell themselves short, but sometimes when it's good, like that cliché in the movie "as good as it gets", maybe as good as it gets is ok.

Suave · 01-06-2006, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

People will conclude that if they have high self-esteem.

...if they're batshit psycho. Being a sociopath is a mental disorder. Just as a depressive can't be cured by 'thinking happy thoughts', a sociopath would've been a sociopath whether or not they received mroe beatings as a child.

I strongly disagree. Most of the relevant scientific community (meaning not natural sciences) would disagree as well. The "number of beatings received as a child", or simply the upbringing of a person has an enormous impact on who they become.

And as far as depressives not being cured by "thinking happy thoughts", well maybe not that exact oversimplification, but therapy is significantly more effective in treating most conditions than drugs are. And therapy, even though it is facilitated by another, is equivalent to "thinking happy thoughts."

*Note: I didn't say "self confidence" I said "self-esteem". Esteem being worth or value, confidence being faith in one's abilities. Now, obviously with our conceptual framework, we attribute a certain amount of value to other people in general. At the same time, we assign a level of value to ourselves (self-esteem); what do you suppose happens when the value assigned to ourselves vastly surpasses that assigned to others? <- aimed both at Martian and Tecoyah

maximusveritas · 01-06-2006, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Only applies if you are white or asian, others they still let pass.

Um, have you ever been to medical school? No, didn't think so.
I'm not sure what you're basing it on, but you're dead wrong and should be embarrassed for saying it.

pig · 01-06-2006, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJess

And I would never say that it is. It's that everyone is so concerned with using a green pen instead of a red one, they're not concerned with actually TEACHING. It may take one kid more time, but there's nothing wrong with that. My issue is not that it takes some longer - it's that the ones who are quicker are being penalized for the whole group. Just as some learn slower, others learn faster - and adjustments need to be made for BOTH. Every school has learning disabled classes along with regular classes, but not every school has gifted classes to go with.

If I'm reading at an 8th grade level when I'm 8, don't hold me back with the rest of the class.

And if I'm getting stuff wrong, it's wrong - that's nothing to do with what a valuable person I am, it's just about learning to understand it and do it right. But they're making it into a self-esteem issue that it never was, and never needed to be. How can I learn if I am only coddled and never taught?

I heart you.

Oh, and what tec said about what martian said.

I think that one must believe that most things are possible for them to achieve, to some degree or another, if they are willing to work hard, work long, and get lucky.

In most cases, one must have goals in order to excel. I see no point in setting easily achievable goals, nor in setting goals that one doesn't believe they can eventually achieve.

A goal gives direction and motivation, and then you embrace Ben's journey of knowledge and do the best you can. I find that working hard gives it own satisfaction. I believe you have to recognize that you could fail, but never accept failure or be content with it. Otherwise, I just don't see why one would ever do anything. What's the fun?

pig · 01-06-2006, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximusveritas

Um, have you ever been to medical school? No, didn't think so.
I'm not sure what you're basing it on, but you're dead wrong and should be embarrassed for saying it.

yeah, he might have been. or maybe dental school. the actual content of the the comment i really can't speak to. i don't know how affirmative action works with medical school. knowing ustwo, his position may be skewed by conservative tendencies and his taste for soggy piss stained cereal.

just maybe.

maximusveritas · 01-06-2006, 12:11 PM

Yeah, looking back, he might have been talking about dental school even though Cynthetiq was talking about medical school. Even so, he's making some generalizations since I'm sure not all dental schools have such lax standards.

maleficent · 01-06-2006, 12:13 PM

Gentlemen, this isn't politics... play nice... please...

JustJess · 01-06-2006, 12:30 PM

/wishes she could use supermoderator yellow to scold

Elphaba · 01-06-2006, 12:34 PM

Nope, it's not Politics. We're expected to behave ourselves there.

maximusveritas · 01-06-2006, 12:35 PM

sorry, should have let it go like usual, but I found it really offensive personally.

pig · 01-06-2006, 12:45 PM

awww...i love my little ustwo

knowing the way he can give it, i know he can take a little heated smartassery.

irregardless, if i happened to offend anyone, i suppose i'm sort of sorry-ish for it?

even if it's ustwo

/jess...use the go advanced option and change your color...

JustJess · 01-06-2006, 01:06 PM

Piggy darling, I know I could. But that's Mal's (or Tec's or whomever's) domain. I was just being silly and envious of the scolding rights!

pig · 01-06-2006, 01:19 PM

Scolders of the Universe, UNTIE!!!

/she called me darling. now i'm all soft like chitlins

Martian · 01-06-2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suave

I strongly disagree. Most of the relevant scientific community (meaning not natural sciences) would disagree as well. The "number of beatings received as a child", or simply the upbringing of a person has an enormous impact on who they become.

And as far as depressives not being cured by "thinking happy thoughts", well maybe not that exact oversimplification, but therapy is significantly more effective in treating most conditions than drugs are. And therapy, even though it is facilitated by another, is equivalent to "thinking happy thoughts."

*Note: I didn't say "self confidence" I said "self-esteem". Esteem being worth or value, confidence being faith in one's abilities. Now, obviously with our conceptual framework, we attribute a certain amount of value to other people in general. At the same time, we assign a level of value to ourselves (self-esteem); what do you suppose happens when the value assigned to ourselves vastly surpasses that assigned to others? <- aimed both at Martian and Tecoyah

Chronic depression is not cured by therapy, it's treated by therapy. And medications, such as Xanax, the ever-popular Prozac or other mood stabilizers. Same goes for bipolar disorder, which is related. Neither one of these is curable, at this point.

As for your other point, you're mistaking the symptom for the cause. Sociopathic tendencies are generally caused by a deep-seated rage combined with a lack of ability to feel guilt or remorse. The over-inflated ego is a manifestation of the rage; the sociopath believes himself to be above the human swill, because he hates them so much.

Again, life is not a contest and if you're talking about value as related to others you're missing my point. My sense of self-worth has nothing to do with anyone else; I don't put myself on a ladder with the rest of the entire human race. It comes from knowing that I do have talents and abilities and I am valuable in my own right. It's not an issue of 'more' or 'less', it's simply recognizing that I have worth as a human being. Stemming from that is my acknowledgement of what I can and cannot do. I have valuable technical skills and a high aptitude for such. This makes me well suited to be an engineer, mechanic or technician. I have Crohn's disease, which makes me poorly suited for the military, police forces or other emergency services. So rather than beat my head against a brick wall trying to get into the police force, I do the best I can at being a technician. Unsurprisingly, I excel.

raeanna74 · 01-06-2006, 07:40 PM

I graduated from College with a C average. And it took me 5 years. This isn't because I'm stupid or lazy. But I'm also not a genius and it takes a lot of effort for me to succeed. I repeated classes more than once at times. BUT in the end I succeeded and I taught students who have since done well in school. I didn't get a trophy, or valdictorian award. I simply improved myself. I started out, in my first semester only passing half of my classes. By the last year I had raised my grades and got an A in one of my core courses. BECAUSE I worked hard. I didn't have a high self esteem but I saw that I needed to succeed and so I pushed myself hard to do better each year, each course.

Pushing yourself to do better is more important than getting an A or some award. Success is improving yourself and working to your potential regardless of the end result. We can't lower the bar for students who don't want to work hard or for those who can't. But if you simply can't and you've tried more than once, then you need to know when to change your method or task and find something or someway TO succeed.

filtherton · 01-06-2006, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

[B]You cannot have a life plan predicated on the belief that everything is equally achievable to you — especially if that same message has been sold indiscriminately to all comers.

There goes the american dream.

Ustwo · 01-06-2006, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximusveritas

Um, have you ever been to medical school? No, didn't think so.
I'm not sure what you're basing it on, but you're dead wrong and should be embarrassed for saying it.

Have I been to medical school? No.

Have I taken the same classes with the med students? Yes.

Have I spoken with the professors about this issue? Yes.

Are you just being a dick here? Yep.

Do you have a clue? Nope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maximusveritas

sorry, should have let it go like usual, but I found it really offensive personally.

I'm sure you will get over it. You are wrong, and there is no point being offended when you are offended on a subject you are unversed on.

01-05-2006, 11:58 AM	#3 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	I see myself quoting the words of my leadership prof: "Dare to be Average." Think about that for a minute. He had this concept pegged from the start, and it was really challenging to understand his rationale. I had been surrounded by a hyper-competitive environment for so long that I had trouble accepting my abilities and achieving inner peace. Once I realized that grades were not important but rather the journey of knowledge was I able to let go and succeed. What do I succeed at, you ask? Being average. Remember: Exactly half of the people (minus 1) you meet will be below average... __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

01-05-2006, 11:59 AM	#4 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	I dislike many of the self-help gurus. However, there are other glaring errors there too. SAT scores have not been in a 20 year decline. They have gone up and down from 1975-1995. Up through the end of the 70's, down through the early 80's, back up from the late 80's to early 90's. And this is during a time that the percentage of students increased steadily, so just on those stats alone, they should have gone down due to commonality. But they didn't, and the test got tougher in 1975. I really don't like how Salerno equates positive self worth as a link to "sociopath" and "drug kingpin" behaviour. Hyperbole has a new #1 lover. Maybe we should tell all of the kids every day that they are worthless and weak. That'll make them Solid Citizens. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

01-05-2006, 12:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
Suave Twitterpated Location: My own little world (also Canada)	Your title really does fit you well UsTwo. Ben: He's talking about affirmative action. __________________ "Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein "Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato

01-05-2006, 12:07 PM	#10 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	Actually, the kids' movie The Incredibles illustrated this concept perfectly. No one can be special, no one is better at anything - which is just bullshit. The trends in American teaching today are frustrating beyond all belief - not only are the kids not learning, their parents are becoming monsters to deal with. For gods' sakes, if you get it wrong, it's WRONG! Learn the right answer! 2+2=4 is not open to feel-good interpretation, for fuck's sake! Ahem, sorry. It's appalling that we are the most powerful country in the world, and our education levels are laughable. Poppinjay - don't forget, in the late 90's they made the SAT tests easier, too, IIRC. The scoring was softened - I don't remember the actual changes, but the result was better scores. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'. Last edited by JustJess; 01-05-2006 at 12:13 PM.. Reason: more posts!

01-05-2006, 12:08 PM	#11 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	OOOOooooooh. I get it. I thought there was something more to it than "In my opinion...." that was unintentionally left out. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

01-05-2006, 12:50 PM	#13 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	What a load of crap. Sure, let's devalue our kids and wreck their confidence in themselves.

01-05-2006, 01:26 PM	#17 (permalink)
WillyPete Addict	They're starting to promote this crap in the UK now. The kids haven't failed at something, they've simply experienced a 'postponed success'. BS. If you're late for a hot date you're not 'postponing sex', you're being bad mannered and, well, late.

01-06-2006, 01:47 AM	#20 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	There's a big difference between "self-help" and treating everyone equally or expecting people to be able to achieve the same goals. Self help teaches you that you can achieve whatever you want, and I firmly believe this. I watched my dad do it. You can be very aware of your weaknesses and strengths and play to your strengths and achieve anything. Treating everyone the same and believing everyone can achieve the same goals in the same amount of time is ridiculous, especially in school, where a child must be given the time to learn their strengths and weaknesses and learn to use both. I am a firm believer in giving grades not based on what others do but on the individuals ability and effort. Had this happened in school maybe I would have tried harder, I knew I was smarter than most, and I knew I could do better than most, but I didn't apply myself because my effort wasn't going to be noticed anymore or less than anyone else's. Looking back on it, I regret that I didn't achieve more just for myself, but that is what happens when all kids are treated equally. It's what happens when all adults are treated equally, until they reach some form of self awareness and inner drive. Yes, some kids develop it earlier than others. And some kids push the kids so that when they are out in the real world the kid as an adult have problems achieving, or with drugs, or with self esteem, or with intimacy or whatever because noone is there to push them anymore and they didn't learn to push themselves. This is where self-help comes in. It's not whether what the author truly says is right or wrong..... IT'S WHAT THE READER BELIVES. If I read a book and it tells me I can achieve anything I desire and I truly believe what is written then I will achieve what I desire. Did the book or technique help me? Perhaps, but more or less it was inside of me to begin with and the book or technique brought that out. So "self-help" is not BS it's just what it says....... you help yourself, but sometimes that stimulus or raised belief is needed and necessary. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 01-06-2006 at 01:51 AM..

01-06-2006, 04:11 AM	#23 (permalink)
hulk C'mon, just blow it. Location: Perth, Australia	One wonders how kids who get 'postponed successes' will act when a 'postponed success' gets their sorry arse fired from a job. Shizzle like that also assumes that a person will immediately stop developing once they leave school, so we'd better not fuck up their childhood! Quick, wrap them all with cotton wool! Of course, as any adult will tell you, that's just untrue. For instance, I learnt more useful life and social skills in the 12 months following my drop-out of year 12 than in the five years prior. Specifically, how to act like an adult, and not a stupid kid. __________________ "'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review.

01-06-2006, 12:11 PM	#29 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	Yeah, looking back, he might have been talking about dental school even though Cynthetiq was talking about medical school. Even so, he's making some generalizations since I'm sure not all dental schools have such lax standards.

01-06-2006, 12:13 PM	#30 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Gentlemen, this isn't politics... play nice... please... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less. Last edited by maleficent; 01-06-2006 at 12:31 PM..

01-06-2006, 12:30 PM	#31 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	/wishes she could use supermoderator yellow to scold __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

01-06-2006, 12:34 PM	#32 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	Nope, it's not Politics. We're expected to behave ourselves there.

01-06-2006, 12:35 PM	#33 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	sorry, should have let it go like usual, but I found it really offensive personally.

01-06-2006, 12:45 PM	#34 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	awww...i love my little ustwo knowing the way he can give it, i know he can take a little heated smartassery. irregardless, if i happened to offend anyone, i suppose i'm sort of sorry-ish for it? even if it's ustwo /jess...use the go advanced option and change your color... __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

01-06-2006, 01:06 PM	#35 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	Piggy darling, I know I could. But that's Mal's (or Tec's or whomever's) domain. I was just being silly and envious of the scolding rights! __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

01-06-2006, 01:19 PM	#36 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	Scolders of the Universe, UNTIE!!! /she called me darling. now i'm all soft like chitlins __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

01-06-2006, 07:40 PM	#38 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I graduated from College with a C average. And it took me 5 years. This isn't because I'm stupid or lazy. But I'm also not a genius and it takes a lot of effort for me to succeed. I repeated classes more than once at times. BUT in the end I succeeded and I taught students who have since done well in school. I didn't get a trophy, or valdictorian award. I simply improved myself. I started out, in my first semester only passing half of my classes. By the last year I had raised my grades and got an A in one of my core courses. BECAUSE I worked hard. I didn't have a high self esteem but I saw that I needed to succeed and so I pushed myself hard to do better each year, each course. Pushing yourself to do better is more important than getting an A or some award. Success is improving yourself and working to your potential regardless of the end result. We can't lower the bar for students who don't want to work hard or for those who can't. But if you simply can't and you've tried more than once, then you need to know when to change your method or task and find something or someway TO succeed. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.