maleficent

How about e-hunting...
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=76372

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kutulu

I've steamed lobster also. Supposedly they die really quickly. I don't have live lobser often but next time, I'm considering the method where you just cut them in half and saute them. They die instantly if you insert the knife in the right spot, which should be considered less 'cruel' but it's more real since you do it by hand.

I recently found a place in town that sells live dungeness! Living in Phoenix that is quite a rarity. I can't wait.

Hanxter

dungeness is the boss when it comes to crab - king is okay but i'll take dungies anytime - and snow crab just plain sux...

for baked stuffed lobster, you don't wanna watch the preparation if your a softie - PETA has had a war on it up here for years

dlish

never killed an animal in my life..then again i didnt count fish in my resume of killed animals....

oh yeah just remembered those ants i used to fry with a magnifying glass...

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kutulu

screw PETA. If those retards pulled their heads out of their asses they would realize that it's better to die instantly than it is to be steamed alive.

Oh, are we counting insects? That would make me a baaad person.

meembo

Lots of fish to eat
Lots of birds to eat
Lots of seafood to eat
I've eaten lots of red meat, but I've never killed the animal myself
I shot my dog to put him out of misery when he was dying
I killed one sparrow when I was a boy just for the hell of it, and I've regretted it ever since

I have no problem doing it for a reason -- just not for no reason at all

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less I say, smarter I am

dksuddeth

One has to wonder if PETA is at all familiar with this thing called 'the food chain'. Predators kill and eat prey, sometimes while the prey is still alive. Why are they not out picketing a pride of lions? I've heard some PETA people say that we should be strictly vegetarians, I say F*That!!. I like beef, poultry, seafood, and on occasion i'll even eat pork. We, as a species, have eaten meat for thousands upon thousands of years. We are a part of that food chain. Peta.....get over it. You are not going to change the behavior pattern of humans.

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

FngKestrel

Okay, this made me laugh.

I used to fish in Boy Scouts but hated gutting the fish. I've trapped mice using sticky traps, and kill insects with much zeal.

I enjoy a good steak (in fact, I had one 10 minutes ago), but don't know if I could do the killing myself. When I think about it, it's like the scene in "Restaurant at the End of the Universe" where the cow talks to Arthur about what cuts would be good.

Could I become vegetarian? Hell no. I enjoy food way too much to limit my palate.

eribrav

I hunt on a regular basis. We take 1 or 2 deer each year if we are lucky, along with the occasional goose, turkey or squirrel.

I take clean, killing shots. We butcher the animals together. I can't tell you how much I truly value each and every meal that we get from those animals.

What's more cruel, an animal like a pig that spends it's life suffering on an industrial farm, or the deer that lives it's life in nature and dies from a clean killing shot from my shotgun?

I think every meat eater should, at least once in their lives, see their meal make the journey from living, breathing animal to their plate. It really means something, and I don't think you will appreciate it 'til you experience it.

raeanna74

I've gone deer hunting, fishing, and helped raised many different kinds of animals for the purpose of butchering them. I've helped butcher chickens, sheep, cows, and rabbits. Chickens are probably the most unpleasant to butcher. All were killed as quickly as possible. The problem with butchering with a gunshot to the head or chopping the head off is that the nervous system of the remaining body is still triggered and after it's separated from the 'control center' the rest of the body will flop, flail and as was mentioned with chickens, even get up and run. I remember one large sheep that we shot in the head that flailed for what seemed like forever while blood spurted from it's head. It was upsetting to see and at that time I was only 15. I do not nor have ever ENJOYED killing the animals. We do eat meat and I see no difference in the amount of cruelty to the animal for me to butcher it or for me to buy it off the shelf at the market. I think I appreciate the sacrifice of the animals life more because I have participated in it's demise. I don't even hunt for the sake of sport. I do it because I like venison and because I'm on a limited budget. Venison is a WHOLE lot cheaper than beef when I do the butchering and processing myself.

I think I find it more difficult to castrate sheep or dehorn calves. The calves bellow and the sheep make such a racket. The only way past it is to proceed as quickly as possible. Without dehorning though the cows would harm one another easier.

On the other side of things. If I catch a bug in my house I often will try to catch it and take it outside. The exception is with critters that seem to move too quickly to catch and those ladybugs. There's just too many of those ladybugs to catch and release ALL of them buggers. I have a cat, a bird (parakeet), and two guinea pigs in our house. I care for them and treat them kindly. I would miss any one of them dearly. Especially the cat and bird. I enjoy watching wildlife and photoing them. I had a birdfeeder outside (till it got broken this summer) and plan to put up one this spring. I rescued a rabbit once when I was a kid. Our landlord had mown over a nest and only one survived. We raised it till it was able to forage for itself. We released it near and old burrow in our back yard and left food at it's door daily for a while. He survived and grew quite large. I care for animals but those that are commonly used for food I do not have a problem butchering myself and eating. The important thing is appreciating the 'gift' of food that those animals have given and not wasting any of it.

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cj2112

Just as a matter of clarification, most turkey shoots now are a target shooting competion in which the winner or winners get a turkey to take home, if you've ever hunted turkey, you know that those birds are not easy to hunt.

I hunt and fish. For those that don't see hunting as a challenge, ask a hunter where the challenge is. It isn't a matter of just walking out in the woods, choosing your animal and shooting it. there is alot more to it than that.
This was the result of my spring hunt:

he had about a 10" beard, and weighed about 23lbs.

crow_daw

I've accidentally ran over rabbits and possums before, and I enjoy fishing. I've also taken part in the mercy killing of a kitten that was dying and suffering terribly.

But while I'm not at all opposed to hunting, I've never done it one time in my life. Yet another one of the Southern stereotypes that I in no way live up to.

I'm kind of an enigma. While I don't like a sandwich unless it personally claimed the lives of at least four different animals, I'm not comfortable with killing animals, or watching them be killed. It unnerves me.

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Hanxter

we get windshields blown out by partridge in the mating season - am i sorry it died - no - i'll eat it while filing my insurance claim...
moose - he'll get away while i'm putting my body back together...
deer - if they're eating my garden after the money and toil i put into it they can call it their last meal if i catch them...
woodchucks - same as deer only lobster bait...
squirrels - other than secret, they can go with the groundhogs...

here we live by simple means, in that i mean we love the outdoors and enjoy the wildlife as much as anyone, but there are certain times when enough is enough and in that thinning the herd is healthy...

i know my comments were a tad crass but they were meant to be - we are carnivores - we eat meat = those that don't take supplements...

i don't like drugs and you can take your farm raised fish and choke on it...

wow - that was kewl

ziadel

I'll kill just about anything if the opportunity presents itself.


My parents place sits on 60 acres of forest, surrounded by housing developments, and the wildlife population is getting out of control. So, some people are leaving out bowls of anti-free to take care of the problem (which is a horrible way to die)

so whenever I'm over there I try to shoot as many of anything I can, because meeting a bullet is a lot better than dying from glycol alcohol poisoning.

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splck

I agree that caged hunting is a disgrace and in no way would I support it.
It's clear that those who think we should hunt "mano a mano" have never tried to get within shooting range of a deer, moose, elk or turkey. It ain't as easy as you think. If they poo poo the use of a rifle, would they rather a bow be used? Sure it takes more of an effort, but the animal dies much more slowly and the chance of wounding it is much greater. Again, it ain't as easy as you think.

I never killed anything just for the sake of killing it, but I did have some friends that did.
Animals that I've dispatched by accident:
two cats
raccoon
opossum
several lizards
two deer
many many thousands of insects (with my windshield)

Animals I've dispatched by design:
lots of pests (mice, flies, wasps, slugs etc)
several species of finfish (and lots of em')
countless oysters, clams, mussels, and crabs (dungeness...yum)
chickens, grouse, ducks, geese, quail
several deer
four moose


As far as I'm concerned industrial farming is cruel. It's too bad most people don't know what happened to the piece of plastic wrapped meat that's in their supermarket.

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nice line eh?

doodlebird

in the interest of not steering the thread away from where it was headed, this'll be brief, but not all on point.

good points, charlie. i can see the logic in the slavery comparassions, but agree that there isn't an equality there.

i disagree on the point that we owe them more because we're responsible. who's to say that they feel enough to even dislike it? if so, couldn't we breed generations of masochist chickens? how could PETA argue if the animals liked it?

that said, for the most part, humanely raised meat just plain TASTES better. IMO, that's the best reason for it.

carry on with your kill lists.

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doodle

tspikes51

I've killed one of my cats, hit it right between the eyes with my dad's .22 as an act of mercy. It had feline leukemia and was in pain. It was an easy shot even though I didn't have a scope.

I haven't killed anything hunting yet, but I hope to soon because venison burgers are sooo tasty. I fish a lot too.

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Carno

I think that fighting an animal hand to hand is the dumbest idea ever. I mean, do you really think you're going to get close enough to a deer to jump on it and then fight it to death? The idea is laughable. Hell, even if you could jump on it, you couldn't kill it. If you actually did end up killing the thing, it would be a bloody, painful, gruesome death. But hey, maybe it would be more sporting....

Humans are weak, frail little things. Many animals would be more than capable of killing a single human that was unarmed.

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Eric640

If nature were left to its own devices they would die anyway. Probably in a much more gruesome way than at a slaughterhouse. Nature tends to do things pretty painfully.

Anyone who honestly believes that the world would be a better place without the automated slaughter of domesticated animals for food really needs to grow up and stop living in carebear world.

As Maddox says... for every animal you don't eat, I'm eating two.

Let's face the facts. Man is a carnivorous animal, he was designed to eat meat. If you really think that is evil then I don't know what to say. In order to satisfy a basic need, man has used his intelligence to devise a reasonably humane and efficient way to achieve his goal.

Instead of natural weapons like claws and teeth or brute strength, man has intelligence. Arguably the best weapon of all.

Well, actually if you look at the state of things, it's not even debatable. Survival of the fittest.

Hmm, I don't know if I have a firm stance on hunting. At some level I think it's frivolous entertainment. However, when I really think about it, am forced to concede that it is really nothing more than an inefficient slaughterhouse and therefore kindof falls under the above.

It's the animals that take a bullet and still live only to die hours later that somewhat make me question the humanity of it all.


As far as raising animals explicitly for hunting... meh. Controlled curcumstances are arguably more humane than hunting in the wild. I think any real hunter would argue that it takes the sport out of it anyways so is pretty undesirable. I am not a hunter so I don't know.

Carno

Exactly. And that's why we have guns.

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Martian

I grew up in farm country and my dad was a butcher. I have personally killed many rural pests, I have fished and I have also done a job similar to BigBen's with the chickens. I have been witness to the slaughtering and butchering of cattle and pigs as well.

I'm not squeamish when it comes to these sorts of things. For one, death is a part of life. Everything living dies; that some things have died by my hand doesn't bother me. Whether that groundhog dies because I shot it or by the rabies infection doesn't matter in the least to the groundhog. The fish may well be eaten by a bear (yes there were bears where I grew up, although I thankfully have never encountered one personally). The chicken.. well, they're too stupid to come in from the rain. The ways they die are without number.

Humans are carnivorous by nature. We require proteins that can only be had by eating meet and we have the teeth to back it up. We have sharp canines; even though they've receded, they are there and that's a carnivore trait. (Yes we have molars as well; this is because we are omnivores and thus possess traits of both carnivores and herbivores). Part of eating meat is killing the animal it comes from; thus I've caught my fair share of fish.

EDIT - And BigBen, it's interesting that you cite the intelligence of deer as a reason not to kill them. Do you support hunting as a means of population control? I'm of the mind that it's better to shoot the deer now than let it starve to death in winter, but I understand there are those who oppose this view.

EDIT #2 -
It's a learned thing, actually. When you see it from an early age, you get used to it. It's less about not making a connection between the two and more about accepting the fact that if I want ham that pig has to die for me to have it.

There's a reason I'm very vocal about wasting food. Well, okay, several. But being Scottish isn't the reason I had in mind.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Poppinjay

I believe that was me. Honestly, if I had any attraction to vension, I would find ways to elasticize my ethics on deer and elk hunting. But I don't like venison, despite every hunter who swears they have "the" recipe to make it taste good. All my family has hunted and swears they love venison. and they all have packages of venison that have been in their freezer for more than a year, while they throw some sausages or steak on the grill.

I don't support expanding deer season or increasing limits to control population.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Charlatan

That would be awesome... just like the Dish of the Day at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

BigBen

Although I am not a professor of linguistics, I have to take exception to the statements claiming that humans are Carnivores;

Carnivores are animals that eat meat exclusively (think lions, hyenas)

Herbivores are animals that eat vegetables exclusively (think cows and rabbits)

Omnivores eat a diet that consists of both meat and vegetables (think bears, humans)

Just saying.

It seems that I have fallen into the classical investigative trap: I am getting responses from those who have killed for sport, those who have killed for food, and those who have killed by accident. I was trying to get a representative sample, and only those involved in the process are replying, possibly skewing my results. Do people think I am mistaken in my hypothesis that:

Most consumers of meat products have never witnessed (nor participated) in the death of said food animal.

Hmmm. Looking at the responses, I think I may have to reevaluate my thinking.

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Charlatan

The only animal that I have seen killed and then eaten was a fish. I have never had the opportunity, despite spending time on farms, to see an animal killed that I eventually ate.

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cj2112

Not all hunters kill for sport, I'd venture to say that most hunters kill both for food and sport. True most of us are able to go to the store to purchase beef, pork, chicken, fish, and turkey, however until you've tried wild game, you don't know what your missing, that bird in the picture i posted above, was by far the best turkey i have ever eaten. So much so that i will likely never purchase another turkey again. Did I hunt it for sport? Sure, but understand that i also hunted it for meat and fed it to my family.

Toaster126

My opinion has always been that it is fine to kill animals if you have a good reason. Good reasons for me include using the animal for food\materials, protecting people\property, and as a part of wildlife management. Killing just for the sake of killing is abhorent and humans should be above that.

I don't believe animals have souls, so I have no problem with them being killed in a manner that isn't specifically cruel and tortured. Chickens beheaded? I don't care... it's not something like cutting it's legs off and just letting it bleed to death. That would be wrong.

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Martian

BigBen - You're falling into the common trap of assuming the three phenotypes (carnivore, herbivore and omnivore) are exclusive. The reality is quite the opposite; a carnivore is a creature that eats flesh. An herbivore is a creature that eats plant. An omnivore is a creature whose diet consists of both; therefore, an omnivore may be defined as both a carnivore and an herbivore. However, the distinction that is commonly accepted is that a carnivore is a creature that eats exclusively meat; this is why I used the derivative adjective (carnivorous) and not the noun. I don't know any better way to describe man's meat eating tendencies (and physiological dependence on such) than as carnivorous. That we are also herbivorous does not nullify the fact.

And I have no problem accepting the idea that most people who eat meat have never been part of the killing process. So yeah, the results are a bit skewed. I find it a bit hard to swallow that 97% of the world's (or even North America's) population are fish and game enthusiasts.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Martian

I apologize for the misquote.

However, your stance on the issue is interesting to me. The deer overpopulation issues in most of North America are caused by the relative scarcity of it's natural predators, cougars and wolves being ones that spring immediately to mind. There are those who would blame the lack of these animals on humanity, yet decry humanity assuming the role that they've vacted; ie, culling the herd, eliminating those who fail to compete and keeping the population in check. A wolf pack on the hunt or a cougar waiting to pounce cares not a whit for the intelligence of it's prey, or even whether it has a fair chance. The idea of a humane kill is (as the name implies) a human trait. I have previously seen coyotes eating an animal that was still living. That could hardly be considered humane treatment.

Population control is ultimately for the benefit of the animal in question as much as it is for us, or such is my belief. Extending deer season or raising quotas means I'm less likely to trash my car on a deer. It also means that some hunter has more meat and an extra trophy for his wall. But aside from all that, it means the surviving animals have less competition for food and shelter. It means that the deer left standing have more food in the forest and are therefore less likely to wander into someone's back yard, where they might mistake antifreeze for a sweet and tasty treat, or onto the road where they'll have a fatal disagreement with an 18 wheeler.

That's my take on the issue. Care to elaborate on yours?

In any case, I stand by my belief that death is a part of life. Personally, I can think of no more noble reason to die than to extend the life of another. Sure as hell beats getting shot in an alley for the fifty bucks in my wallet, anyway.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

BigBen

I love falling into common traps.

It keeps me grounded. I often wonder what regular people think and behave like, and thus participate in common failures and stereotypes to retain my touch with the common man...

Think of it as "Intellectual Slumming", if you will!

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BadNick

Sorry if this is too crazy or off topic since you did say "animals" in the thread title, so I hope you can just ignore it if so, but I thought of it again as I read these responses. Why are we usually more concerned about killing animals, compared to, say, vegetables and viruses? I guess if something attacks you it's easier to justify killing as defense (i.e., viruses).

I've occasionally wondered, and argued with vegetarian/vegan friends, if we have less "respect" for vegetation than we do for animals simply due to human conceit that makes us think we're the most important living things in the universe, or maybe due to a lack of understanding of the equally important place vegetation has in our universe compared to animals (including humans). When I read about new discoveries about ways that trees and other vegetation "communicate" it just gives me more food for thought ...mental omnivour

Martian

Dare to be average, indeed.

Are you suggesting that I'm out of touch with the common man?

We are not amused...

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Martian

Virii aren't alive and therefore can't be killed. A virus is just a strand of molecules, something of a genetic instruction manual. Through a series of chemical reactions, it bonds with a specific type of cell and injects it's own RNA into said cell, causing the cell to start producing more virii instead of carrying on normal cellular function. There's no rection to stimuli outside of very narrowly defined parameters and no signs of any real form of life.

And as to vegetables, it's less about a lifeform's importance in the universe and more about a lifeform's claim to thought and sentience. We know we think and we know that the organ that allows us that is our brain. We know that animals have brains but plants don't. It's therefore no great leap to assume that other animals may be capable of thought an even sentience, where plants aren't. The equipment as we understand it just isn't present in a plant.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Poppinjay

A humane kill is not a natural kill. Unless you allow overpopulation to take care of itself naturally, it'll continue to happen. If you allow a natural solution to overpopulation, the animals that die will be the old, the young, and the infirm. That is proper population management. When you introduce extended hunting seasons and increase limits on kills to control population, the balance gets out of whack.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

skier

(edited quote)

This is a good point to make. I'd like to get your thoughts on the manner we take animals from the forest. A wolfpack seeks to eliminate the weakest members of the herd in order to reduce risk for themselves. A human, with his or her powerful weaponery, has the ability (and often uses it) to take the strongest or choiciest member of their prey. This sets a new evolutionary standard, and perhaps a very destructive one. The biggest, strongest, best of the species are taken each and every year. Is this in the best interest of hunters, our people, or the world in general? Should there be a movement to promote taking smaller, weaker animals instead of the biggest or best?

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cj2112

This is not necessarily true, it not always the largest, strongest or best animal of the species I am hunting that I take, but rather the largest one that has given me the opportunity to kill it. It takes more than size and strength to survive in the wild, it also takes intelligence. The turkey that I shot this spring was not a very wise bird, nor was he the largest i'd seen that week. It wandered into a wide open area, knew I was there, stuck it's head up (affording me a perfect shot at it) and looked directly at me for approximately 5 seconds before I shot it. I was not well camoflaged at all, as a matter of fact I was wearing what you see in the picture.

Poppinjay

I bet the turkey was depressed and looking for a way out.

There's no Charter Hospital for turkeys.

It looks really tasty, by the way. Wild turkey is great.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

splck

When I moose hunt, I always go for the small ones (900 lbs is a small one).
Any hunter knows that a small buck or bull is better table fare than a large one.

Around here in BC you must take the meat of any big game animal you kill. Leaving it in the bush is not an option.

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nice line eh?

Martian

Not necesarily true. Your assertion begs the question of what is a natural death? Starvation? Coyotes?

Natural selection is not some holy process to be put up on a pedestal. In fact, it cannot be avoided. The strongest, the best suited are always going to survive while the weaker and more poorly suited will not. Man is a predator who introduces a new evolutionary pressure. This requires of the deer that they be more intelligent, faster and that they not stand in one spot for too long. The deer who behave in this manner are the ones who get shot. The deer who do not survive.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

dawnylou

I have never killed an animal ever - never even thought of it.

When I was quite young I had pet rabbits and someone killed those. I found them on our lawn. That sickened me!
I could never understand why someone would do that???

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