And it starts. . . - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

shakran · 11-20-2005, 03:56 PM

http://www.detnews.com/2005/editoria...A23-387307.htm

Quote:

CHICAGO -- Bridget Dehl shushed her 21-month-old son Gavin, then clapped a hand over his mouth to squelch his tiny screams amid the Sunday brunch bustle. When Gavin kept yelping "yeah, yeah, yeah," Dehl quickly whisked him from his highchair and out the door.

Right past the sign warning the cafe's customers that "Children of all ages have to behave and use their indoor voices when coming to A Taste of Heaven," and right into a nasty spat roiling the stroller set in Chicago's changing Andersonville neighborhood.

The owner of A Taste of Heaven, Dan McCauley, said he posted the sign -- at child level, with playful handprints -- in the hope of quieting his tin-ceilinged cafe, where toddlers have been known to sprawl between tables and hurl themselves at display cases for sport.

But many neighborhood mothers took umbrage at the implied criticism of how they handle their children. Soon, whispers of a boycott passed among the playgroups in this North Side hamlet, once an outpost of edgy artists and hip gay couples but now a hot real estate market for young professional families shunning the suburbs.

"I love people who don't have children who tell you how to parent," said Alison Miller, 35, a psychologist, corporate coach and mother of two. "I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see if he can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day."

McCauley, 44, said the protesting parents are "former cheerleaders and beauty queens" who "have a very strong sense of entitlement." In an open letter to the community, he warned of an "epidemic" of anti-social behavior.

"Part of parenting skills is teaching kids they behave differently in a restaurant than they do on the playground," McCauley said. "If you send out positive energy, positive energy returns to you. If you send out energy that says I'm the only one that matters, it's going to be a pretty chaotic world."

And so simmers another skirmish between the childless and the child-centered, a culture clash increasingly common in restaurants and other public spaces as a new generation of busy, older, well-off parents ferry little ones with them.

• An online petition urging child-free sections in North Carolina restaurants drew hundreds of signers, including Janelle Funk, who wrote, "Whenever a hostess asks me 'smoking or nonsmoking?' I respond, 'No kids!' "

• At Mendo Bistro in Fort Bragg, Calif., the owners declare "Well-behaved children and parents welcome" to try to stop unmonitored youngsters from tap-dancing on the 100-year-old wood floors.

• Menus at Zumbro Cafe in Minneapolis say: "We love children, especially when they're tucked into chairs and behaving," which Barbara Daenzer said she read as an invitation to cease her weekly breakfast visits when her son was born.

• Even at the Full Moon in Cambridge, Mass., a cafe created for families, there are rules about inside voices and a "No lifeguard on duty" sign to remind parents to take responsibility. "You run the risk when you start monitoring behavior," said the Full Moon's owner, Sarah Wheaton. "You can say no cell phones to people, but you can't say your father speaks too loudly, he has to keep his voice down. And you can't really say your toddler is too loud when she's eating."

Here in Chicago, parents have denounced Toast, a popular Lincoln Park breakfast spot, as unwelcoming since a note about using inside voices appeared on the menu six months ago.

The owner of John's Place established a separate "family-friendly" room a year ago, only to face parental threats of lawsuits.

When a retail clerk in Andersonville asked a woman to stop breast-feeding last spring, "the neighborhood set him straight real fast," said Mary Ann Smith, the area's alderwoman.

Things got ugly

After a dozen years at one site, McCauley moved A Taste of Heaven six blocks away in May 2004, to a busy corner on Clark Street. The clientele is whiter, wealthier and louder, he said. Teachers and writers seeking afternoon refuge were drowned out not just by children running amok but also by oblivious cell phone chatterers.

Children were climbing the cafe's poles. A couple were blithely reading the newspaper while their daughter lay on the floor blocking the line for coffee. When the family whose children were running across the room to flail themselves against the display cases left after his admonishment, McCauley recalled, the restaurant erupted in applause.

So he put up the sign. Then things really got ugly.

"The looks I would get when I went in there made me so nervous that I would try to buy the food as fast as I could and get out," said Laura Brauer, 40, who has stopped visiting Taste with her two kids.

"I think that the mothers who allow their kids to run around and scream, that's wrong, but kids scream and there is nothing you can do about it. What are we supposed to do, not enjoy ourselves at a cafe?"

Miller said that one day when her son, then 4 months old, was fussing, a staff member rolled her eyes and announced for all to hear, "We've got a screamer!"

Kim Cavitt recalled having coffee and a cookie one afternoon with her boisterous 2-year-old when "someone came over and said you just need to keep her quiet or you need to leave."

"We left, and we haven't been back since," Cavitt said. "You go to a coffee shop or a bakery for a rest, to relax, and that you would have to worry the whole time about your child doing something that children do -- really what they're saying is they don't welcome children, they want the child to behave like an adult."

Why suffer such scorn, the mothers said, when clerks at the Swedish Bakery, a neighborhood institution, offer children -- calm or crying -- free cookies? Why confront such criticism when the recently opened Sweet Occasions, a five-minute walk down Clark Street, designed the bathroom aisle to accommodate double strollers and offers a child-size ice cream cone for $1.50? (At A Taste of Heaven, the smallest costs $3.75.)

"It's his business; he has the right to put whatever sign he wants on the door," Miller said. "And people have the right to respond to that sign however they want."

Owner won't back down

McCauley said he had received kudos from several restaurant owners in the area, though none had followed his lead. He has certainly lost customers because of the sign, but some parents say the offense is outweighed by their addiction to the scones, and others embrace the effort at etiquette.

"The litmus test for me is if they have high chairs or not," said Dehl, the woman who scooped her screaming son from his seat during brunch, as she waited out his restlessness on a sidewalk bench. "The fact that they had one high chair, and the fact that he's the only child in the restaurant is an indication that it's an adult place, and if he's going to do his toddler thing we should take him out and let him run around."

McCauley said he would rather go out of business than back down. He likens this one small step toward good manners to his personal effort to decrease pollution by only hiring employees who live close enough to walk to work.

"I can't change the situation in Iraq; I can't change the situation in New Orleans," he said. "But I can change this little corner of the world."

This'll start world war three. I'm predicting it now.

IMO, good for the cafe owner. It's about time parents figure out that we don't have the right to inflict our children on others.

Cynthetiq · 11-20-2005, 04:16 PM

Quote:

So he put up the sign. Then things really got ugly.

Below a sign from a restaurant owned by a family member. This family member had plenty of offspring (3 kids), and is also a grandmother.

Quote:

"I love people who don't have children who tell you how to parent," said Alison Miller, 35, a psychologist, corporate coach and mother of two. "I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see if he can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day."

You may not be able to control their volume, but you can control their location. Which means if they cannot behave, remove them from the location and bring them to some where that isn't offending to EVERYONE around them, which means YOUR OWN LIVING SPACE.

Quote:

"I think that the mothers who allow their kids to run around and scream, that's wrong, but kids scream and there is nothing you can do about it. What are we supposed to do, not enjoy ourselves at a cafe?"

Answer: Yes. You chose to have kids. It's called MAKING SACRIFICES. I choose to not have children so that I don't have to make such sacrifices.

Quote:

"It's his business; he has the right to put whatever sign he wants on the door," Miller said. "And people have the right to respond to that sign however they want."

Vote with your wallet. You don't like it don't patronize the business. But, "Oh but they make the best blah blah blah..." Too fucking bad. Have some stones and conviction, oh right you don't have any because you cannot get your kids to shut up or behave properly.

maleficent · 11-20-2005, 04:49 PM

Quote:

McCauley, 44, said the protesting parents are "former cheerleaders and beauty queens" who "have a very strong sense of entitlement."

YAY him... and I love the sign - children of all ages... that screams to me adults too --like the obnoxious adults who don't know how to use their indoor voices when yakking on their insipid cell phones.

I get really really sick of people's ill mannered children. The parent may think they are adorable... The rest of the population disagrees... Muzzle it.

Now if only I could get this guy to start an airline...

billege · 11-20-2005, 04:49 PM

Funny. I just read this myself, and thought really hard about starting the same thread.

To initially make my side of this clear:
If there was a kid/no kid section, I'd be sitting happily in the "no kid" section.

To parents: I like you, and your kids just fine. I also respect the incredible amount of work and sacrifice you've chosen to make for your kids. Thank you for being parents. In a few years, I'll try it myself. In the meantime...

I'd like to enjoy my time, without the screaming.

It's really about location, more than anything. Say I'm at the mall, and there are loud kids. Who cares? I'm at a large public noisy gathering place. I'd be happy if there was no ramptant rioting of the little ones, but my standards for quietness are much looser in such a location.

There are however, places unlike the mall where we adults go to have pleasant conversation and relaxation. You parents remember those places? You used to go to them before you had kids.

This lady summed up the attitude problem:

Quote:

"I think that the mothers who allow their kids to run around and scream, that's wrong, but kids scream and there is nothing you can do about it. What are we supposed to do, not enjoy ourselves at a cafe?"

See, you CAN do somthing about it. Instead of letting your kid scream, you can remove them from the area. I guess it's because I got spanked by my parents when I misbehaved, and because we DID abrubtly leave places when me or my sister wouldn't stop whatever it was. I also remember my parents being PISSED at us when that happend. Like everyone else they did want to have a nice dinner out, in a pleasent environment, and thier kids took that away from them. Unlike many parents, they made the sacrifice instead of making everyone else around them make it.

You have a right to a kid, and I support your decision to face that challenge. I haven't made that choice, and I do want to enjoy my peace and quiet. Somtimes, that means being far away from you and your kids.

On the other hand, I can't praise parents of well behaved kids enough. They're maybe 1 in 10, but god bless them.

cyrnel · 11-20-2005, 05:07 PM

Weird. I read that on another site a week or more ago.

My first thought was BRAVO! Wish I could give the guy some business.

Our local shops aren't terrible but this time of year is the worst. It's already busy and behavior standards go out the window. Add a cell phone conv or two and I run. I've yet to see a local restaurant with an "inside voices" policy.

Quote:

"former cheerleaders and beauty queens"

Heh.

Siege · 11-20-2005, 05:42 PM

The basics of this story can be summed up real fast.

It's THEIR restaurant. As such, they can do this if they wish.

It's YOUR money. As such, you can do something known as not supporting their business if you wish.

la petite moi · 11-20-2005, 06:13 PM

Awesome!

I HATE little children that have irresponsible parents. When I was working once, there was a mother who let her daughter stand on the counter and shriek shrilly over and over and over, without asking her to be quiet. It was ridiculous. Oh, and then there was the other time that the parents just let their 1-2 year old son wander back behind the counter and to the espresso bar. His parents didn't even notice that I had to shoo him back out to them. nwlinkvxd suggested that I should have just taken him into the back room and left him there, and seen what the parents would have done.

Ugh, I like this rule. No irritating little brats.

ryfo · 11-20-2005, 06:24 PM

Although I realise kids do scream and wander I also pay my hard earned money for a nice meal out or a cuppa in a cafe and I would like to enjoy myself and that means not listening to others children scream and run around unsupervised. Another pet hate is when the parent gives the kid something to occupy them and it just so happens to be something that makes alot of noise, I am not anti-kid but I think there are restaurants and eateries that cater for families, I do not go to McDonalds and expect peace and quiet.

Meditrina · 11-20-2005, 06:42 PM

I am a mother of 2 children, 1 of which is 3 years old and can be a handful, and I think the owner of this shop has every right to post that sign. It is his business and he wants the majority of his customers to be able to enjoy their meal. Personally, if it were me, sign or no sign, if my son acts up, we are out of there. It is just common decency. We actually do not go out to nice restaurants very often, just for this reason.

ngdawg · 11-20-2005, 06:59 PM

There is nothing more annoying than a misbehaving kid. I have seen kids climb on the back of the booths at a Denny's, a toddler running around the restaurant where I worked, pulling on the tables clothes, kids going full speed down the aisles of grocery stores...and not one parent grabbing that kid and reading them the riot act. When I asked the mother of the toddler where I worked to please seat him, the tables had glasses that could break, she shot me a look to kill.
Once, my son threw a tantrum while in line in Walmart. Horrified, I tried to think what to do. Everyone was staring! While he sobbed, I said, 'stick out your tongue'. He did. "Now, sing your ABC's". He began to sing, still sobbing a bit, tongue sticking out. He began laughing, everyone around did as well, crisis averted.
Had we been anywhere else, I would have and have gone so far as to hightail it outta there.
Yea, kids cry, they scream, but parents can avert that to a point and if the kid is too young to be predictable and responsive, keep it home with a babysitter. The rest of us are out to get AWAY from our kids, not have to endure yours.
Bravo to these business owners. I'm betting the very ones who are offended the most have the brattiest kids.

Carno · 11-20-2005, 08:12 PM

If I were a restaurant owner, I wouldn't say anything to the parents, I'd just punt the little fuckers into the next dimension.

But seriously, it's good that the restaurant owner is making a stand. Parents nowadays are so fucking stupid that it kills me. They think they have every right in the world to do whatever they want. They also get offended and outraged over the most minor shit. Things that they aren't even right about.

guthmund · 11-20-2005, 08:28 PM

Quote:

"I love people who don't have children who tell you how to parent," said Alison Miller, 35, a psychologist, corporate coach and mother of two. "I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see if he can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day."

I love parents who parent. That's what I love; parents who see their little hellion acting out and do something about it rather than sit there and talk louder to drown out the sounds of their children screaming. That's what I love. Nobody forced you to have children. An educated woman, both psychologist and 'corporate coach,' whatever that means, should know better. If you're going to have them, the least you can do is take a little responsiblity for them. I'm getting a little tired of all this 'it takes a village' crap and it's nice to see I'm not the only one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportswidow05

...Personally, if it were me, sign or no sign, if my son acts up, we are out of there. It is just common decency. We actually do not go out to nice restaurants very often, just for this reason.

I love parents like you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Maybe we could send you over to Ms. Miller's house to teach her a thing or two.

cellophanedeity · 11-20-2005, 08:30 PM

I tend to like kids, and don't really mind them when they're screaming. When they're screaming, it's the parents I dislike. Kids make noise, and sometimes (perhaps often) it's unpleasent noise. It happens. It's just that when these kids make these noises in public places, they should be quieted by parents.

And when they behave, they're adorable. I was at Second Cup once, and a father and his daughter were there. She was so cute and well behaved, especially for a kid that couldn't have been more than four. "Daddy, can I please have hot chocolate?"

I love well behaved children. I hate bad behaved parents.

shakran · 11-20-2005, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellophanedeity

I tend to like kids, and don't really mind them when they're screaming. When they're screaming, it's the parents I dislike. Kids make noise, and sometimes (perhaps often) it's unpleasent noise. It happens. It's just that when these kids make these noises in public places, they should be quieted by parents.

Right on. My wife used to think I hated kids because I'd get pissy when a kid would scream for 5 minutes on end in a public place. I finally convinced her that I felt SORRY for the kid and ANGRY at the parent. Kids are not served well by hands-off parenting.

Fire · 11-20-2005, 08:53 PM

Ones children are ones responsibility- when I was a child, if I could not behave, we left or did not go- what the hell happened to common courtesy, and why do people think that the owner of the place and the other patrons should have to deal with their brats- note that most of the problems cited were with kids old enough to be under controll, running around and doing stupid/ potentialy dangerous stuff- and many of the statements also involved parents ignoring their kids to read or talk, while in a pubilc place- this is not allowed in my book, for good reasons- Note that for the record, while I do not have kids(yet) it is on the list, and I hope that I can do a better job that a lot of those that i see.... Also note that I sell sharp, dangerous things for a living, so irresponsible parents of small kids with inquisitive fingers are a sore spot

ryfo · 11-20-2005, 09:02 PM

Reading Ngdawg's comments reminded me of a time when Mrs Ryfo went to a popular restaurant that had booths and was seated next to young kids (they were at the back of her booth) The 'child' (or demon spawn- as Mrs Ryfo named him) proceeded to pull my wifes hair HARD and giggle and keep doing it. After informing the parent of what happened and turning away, IT HAPPENED AGAIN!! Turning quickly Mrs Ryfo yelled at the parent to watch her child or lock it up! (BTW young child = 6or 7 yrs old) As she explained to me she knew it was a family place, but she still thought basic manners were not alot to ask for, andshe didnt yell at the kid but the adult present.

snowy · 11-20-2005, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellophanedeity

I love well behaved children. I hate bad behaved parents.

Amen. Don't blame the child--blame the parent. It's their fault for not doing their job. And don't blame the restaurant when they try to enforce something parents should be doing anyways.

Eweser · 11-21-2005, 08:48 AM

I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks parenting has gotten slack. When my brother and I were kids, we were treated like most here have stated. Either you behaved or you got in trouble or you went home. I agree with the statements that it's the parents who are at fault, not the children. Children will do whatever parents let them get away with.

Charlatan · 11-21-2005, 09:23 AM

Just last night my wife, her friend, me and my two kids (aged 11 and 3) went out for dinner at local restaurant.

My kids were generally well behaved throughout the dinner. At one point, my daughter started to act up. She was immediately given a warning to either behave or she would have to go outside. She repeated what she was doing and was taken by the hand and left outside the restaurant (we could see her standing out in the cold, not four feet from where we were sitting). She wasn't happy.

She came in and apologized and enjoyed the rest of her meal. She wasn't an angel by any means (she likes to torment her older brother) but the goffiness was confined to the table and the volume was respectable for the extablishment.

Too frequently, I see parents that just don't know, or are unwilling, to discipline their children. I just don't get it. It doesn't take much more than having an interest in your kids rather than yourself. That and a dose of self respect and respect for others.

dkocolin · 11-21-2005, 09:39 AM

i was on an NJ Transit train coming back from new york yesterday. there was a group of 5 or 6 kids on vacation with parents in the front of my car, and all i can say is thank god for noise-cancelling earbuds. every time i took them out to listen to an announcement the little brats were louder than before.

Hash_Browns · 11-21-2005, 10:04 AM

I'm sorry, I couldn't handle reading all of these posts because I was to busy seeing everyone calling children Little Fuckers and Little Shits. COME ON! You are all the same people that are blaming this on the parents..so why do you have to insist on calling these children such names...it's trully disprespectful to ones of such innocense.

Yes, I am a mother. I am a mother to three wonderful little girls, all under the age of 6 yrs. I totally agree with what these businesses are doing. I know how to plan around nap times, feeding times and breakdowns. I have sacrificed many a resturaunt of my own will because I know they are not a place for children. I have also found a wonderful place in my area called Java Jungle that has great coffe and a HUGE indoor play yard, slides and all.

I have no qualms with people wanting peace where peace is expected, but don't start calling the kids names, call their parents those names because they are the ones who don't want to step up and take charge....the kids just don't know any better.

Thank you very much,
Sincerely,
A Mom who would rather take the blame for her own actions then have her kids called something so derogitory, even if they don't hear it themselves.

flat5 · 11-21-2005, 10:08 AM

as above, dag nabit!

maleficent · 11-21-2005, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

I'm sorry, I couldn't handle reading all of these posts because I was to busy seeing everyone calling children Little Fuckers and Little Shits. COME ON! You are all the same people that are blaming this on the parents..so why do you have to insist on calling these children such names...it's trully disprespectful to ones of such innocense.

I have a niece and a nephew who are little shits... because their idiot mother ALLOWS them to be. These are uncontrollable monsters - -and the only reason why someone hasn't killed these little shits is that the girl is a angelic and blonde - the boy is just as cute... they work the cuteness... I'm over it -they are little shits. If their mother would control them, then they would cease to be little shits.

Same as an adult.. if someone wants my respect - -they earn it...

sapiens · 11-21-2005, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

I'm sorry, I couldn't handle reading all of these posts because I was to busy seeing everyone calling children Little Fuckers and Little Shits. COME ON! You are all the same people that are blaming this on the parents..so why do you have to insist on calling these children such names...it's trully disprespectful to ones of such innocense.

My sentiment exactly. There was a thread on another site I frequent that was much harsher than this one. It always upsets me when I see people disrespect children as a group.

I can't stand parents that don't parent. I often have to stifle the urge to discipline other people's children at restaurants, playgrounds, even the homes of friends. My daughter never gets away with misbehaving in public places (or anywhere else). When she does, we immediately take her outside. Usually, she gets to sit in the car and do nothing until everyone else is done.

Edit: Most posts in this thread that used derogatory comments about children seemed to be focused on particular children. Still, I'm always bothered by derogatory language toward children. Attack the parent, not the child.

Lebell · 11-21-2005, 10:33 AM

As a parent, I support the owner.

I also don't like poorly behaved children and make it a point to use them as "bad examples" for my own kids.

canuckguy · 11-21-2005, 11:23 AM

As a parent of a young one who could make your ears bleed with screams I respect the right of the owner to put up the sign, control your kids (not always possible!) or leave. Seems simple enough to me. His place, his rules. My house, my rules, pretty standard stuff here.

I take my daughter all the time to restaurants, I just make sure they are kid friendly restaurants, places were you expect noise and confusing. Kids should go to mcdonalds, taco-bell...etc, not 5 star places with wine menu's. Plus as a parent, like I want to spend 12$ bucks on effing chicken fingers that my daughter is going to use as missiles anyway.

BigBen · 11-21-2005, 11:34 AM

Well, I know who I am going to call the next time I find myself in a corporate game and find myself without leadership:

Quote:

"I love people who don't have children who tell you how to parent," said Alison Miller, 35, a psychologist, corporate coach and mother of two. "I'd love for him to be responsible for three children for the next year and see if he can control the volume of their voices every minute of the day."

Corporate Coach? What in the Holy Fuck is that? Have we sunk so low as a society to allow this to occur? This woman is obviously creating her own title to impress the writer of the story!

Who do you coach? The corporation? It is a person, as described by law. How about the executives of the corporation? Naw, executive coach doesn't sound as sexy.

/ben runs off to make fancy new title

BigBen:
Industry Leadership Direction Specialist.
Financial Management Protocol Director
Director In Programming, Super High Intensity Training
Master and Commander, Accounts Recievable
Alpha and Omega
The One True Ben

I hate people somedays. I can assure you that Ms. Miller and I would not get along very well. Not today, anyways.

Willravel · 11-21-2005, 11:45 AM

My daughter is 2 and she can sit through an hour long church service without making a sound. And this is with purely positive reinforcement! These are lazy, snobish parents who think that they run the world. Well, this resturant is a safe haven for those who don't like the shreiks and sounds of uncontroled kids. Shame on those parents for not knowing how to parent.
/get's off soapbox
As proud as I am of my daughter, I know that it is 100% natural for kids to act up, espically in a place as boring as a resturant. They DO bother other people, and disturb the general mood. Little kids don't belong at nice resturants or cafes. Take them to a kids eatery if you want to eat out. Chucky Cheese, despite having the worst pizza in history, loves to have kids and has plenty to keep them occupied.

Redlemon · 11-21-2005, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBen

Corporate Coach? What in the Holy Fuck is that? Have we sunk so low as a society to allow this to occur? This woman is obviously creating her own title to impress the writer of the story!

Who do you coach? The corporation? It is a person, as described by law. How about the executives of the corporation? Naw, executive coach doesn't sound as sexy.

Think "guidance counselor", but working with adults instead of children. My mother-in-law does this, in addition to high school guidance counselor, and a suicide prevention hot line. She has a Masters in social work.

kutulu · 11-21-2005, 12:09 PM

Whatever about the article but I am so sick of this 'sense of entitlement' crap that people keep spewing about. These soapboxes have gotten really high lately.

sapiens · 11-21-2005, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Little kids don't belong at nice resturants or cafes. Take them to a kids eatery if you want to eat out. Chucky Cheese, despite having the worst pizza in history, loves to have kids and has plenty to keep them occupied.

I don't think that having a child compels you to only eat at "family" restaurants. I think that there's a happy medium between 5 star restaurant and Chucky Cheese or fast food. We take our two year old daughter to nice restaurants whenever we go out to eat. They aren't 5 star restaurants, but they are nice, have a wine list, etc. Our daughter speaks at a lower volume than most adults I know. She is better behaved than many adults I know. If she acts up or gets loud, we take her outside immediately. If we did take our daughter to a "family" restaurant, we would expect the same good behavior.

That said, I wouldn't take my daughter to a fancy, intimate restaurant. Nor would I take her to a bar.

veruca · 11-21-2005, 01:03 PM

I am a server...and more often than not, I see children running rampant..swinging off rails, yelling, pushing things over.

Just the other night, there was a child LAYING in the aisle next to the table, I tripped over him, and just barely missed spilling an entire tray of hot coffee on a table. His parents didn't say a word or even tell him to move. It is policy not to say anything, for fear of lawsuit. If I didn't need the damn job, I would have definately said something.

I do not hate children, I hate parents who do not parent. It's not the child's fault, they are children and will do what they want if noone tells them what is right and wrong.

frogza · 11-21-2005, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guthmund

I love parents who parent. That's what I love; parents who see their little hellion acting out and do something about it rather than sit there and talk louder to drown out the sounds of their children screaming. That's what I love. Nobody forced you to have children.

My sentiments exactly. My mom raised 6 kids, if any of us ever acted out we got one warning then if we did it again we'd be in big trouble, then if we did it again...

...okay deadbeat parents pay attention to this part...

we actually got in trouble.

I hate it when parents say, stop it or I'll _____(fill in the blank) and then never go through with the punishment. Are these people aware that that is how you make a criminal? You can teach your kids responsiblity and cause and effect or the police and court system can. I think I'd rather see my kids sit in their rooms for 20 minutes rather than in a cell for 20 years.

tecoyah · 11-21-2005, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carn

If I were a restaurant owner, I wouldn't say anything to the parents, I'd just punt the little Children into the next dimension.

But seriously, it's good that the restaurant owner is making a stand. Parents nowadays are so stupid that it kills me. They think they have every right in the world to do whatever they want. They also get offended and outraged over the most minor shit. Things that they aren't even right about.

*Edited to keep everyone happy....including me

spindles · 11-21-2005, 05:51 PM

It is nice for everyone to say "they should be better parents". Problem is there are no parent schools. Being a good parent is hard, and probably does not come naturally to too many people.

I am an ok parent, but I'm certainly not fantastic. My personality is one that makes me avoid confrontation, but being a good parent means you have to confront your little beast

at times. I have had to do things that are counter to my personality to be a better parent.

Having said that, I have yet to take my child to a restaurant at all (out for coffee/milk shake yes, but full on meal no). I don't do McDonalds (very often) or the like because the food is generally shit - why should I go there? More often than not we eat at home - so there is no real issue, or we go to kid friendly places... He is only 18 months old, so not really ready for a proper sit down meal yet either

My point is - it is fine to be high and mighty about how other people discipline their children, but that doesn't make good parenting easy.

maleficent · 11-21-2005, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spindles

He is only 18 months old, so not really ready for a proper sit down meal yet either

And that is proper parenting... just because you went to a fancy schmancy place before the little darlings came along... doesnt give you a pass to go to those places with them in tow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spindles

My point is - it is fine to be high and mighty about how other people discipline their children, but that doesn't make good parenting easy.
.

No one ever said parenting is easy... however a little common sense is required. If the little darling cant sit with his bottom on the chair for the course of a meal... then he stays home with a babysitter or he goes to a place that doesn't mind.

Marvelous Marv · 11-21-2005, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

I have a niece and a nephew who are little shits... because their idiot mother ALLOWS them to be. These are uncontrollable monsters - -and the only reason why someone hasn't killed these little shits is that the girl is a angelic and blonde - the boy is just as cute... they work the cuteness... I'm over it -they are little shits. If their mother would control them, then they would cease to be little shits.

Same as an adult.. if someone wants my respect - -they earn it...

I'm with you, except that after having kids of my own, I no longer blame the parents for every bad thing the kids do.

Some kids with great parents grow up to be BIG shits.

Marvelous Marv · 11-21-2005, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hash_Browns

I have no quims with people wanting peace where peace is expected, but don't start calling the kids names, call their parents those names because they are the ones who don't want to step up and take charge....the kids just don't know any better.

Just to spare you some future embarrassment, you might want to look up "qualms," and have someone tell you what "quim" means. I doubt that you could find it in a dictionary.

Marvelous Marv · 11-21-2005, 06:29 PM

sapiens · 11-21-2005, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

If the little darling cant sit with his bottom on the chair for the course of a meal... then he stays home with a babysitter or he goes to a place that doesn't mind.

If my daughter can't behave in public, you won't see her at any restaurant whether or not they don't mind if she behaves badly.

The sign mentioned in the article said:

Quote:

"We love children, especially when they're tucked into chairs and behaving,"

I find it offensive. I would express my offense by not patronizing that establishment. I would not be offended by a sign that said: "We love PEOPLE OF ALL AGES, especially when they're tucked into chairs and behaving." I run into obnoxious adults at cafes and restaurants far more frequenty than obnoxious children.

I'm probably oversensitive. Last week someone at my child's daycare complimented me when I properly disciplined my daughter in front of them. I had a strong desire to say: "F** you. Mind your own F***ng business."
I make sure that my daughter behaves properly. I don't appreciate random people commenting on how I parent or should parent whether it's a compliment or a criticism. Again, I'm probably oversensitive.

11-20-2005, 05:42 PM	#6 (permalink)
Siege is a tiger Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada	The basics of this story can be summed up real fast. It's THEIR restaurant. As such, they can do this if they wish. It's YOUR money. As such, you can do something known as not supporting their business if you wish. __________________ "Your name's Geek? Do you know the origin of the term? A geek is someone who bites the heads off chickens at a circus. I would never let you suck my dick with a name like Geek" --Kevin Smith This part just makes my posts easier to find

11-20-2005, 06:13 PM	#7 (permalink)
la petite moi Filling the Void. Location: California	Awesome! I HATE little children that have irresponsible parents. When I was working once, there was a mother who let her daughter stand on the counter and shriek shrilly over and over and over, without asking her to be quiet. It was ridiculous. Oh, and then there was the other time that the parents just let their 1-2 year old son wander back behind the counter and to the espresso bar. His parents didn't even notice that I had to shoo him back out to them. nwlinkvxd suggested that I should have just taken him into the back room and left him there, and seen what the parents would have done. Ugh, I like this rule. No irritating little brats. Last edited by la petite moi; 11-20-2005 at 06:16 PM..

11-20-2005, 06:42 PM	#9 (permalink)
Meditrina Junkie Location: LI,NY	I am a mother of 2 children, 1 of which is 3 years old and can be a handful, and I think the owner of this shop has every right to post that sign. It is his business and he wants the majority of his customers to be able to enjoy their meal. Personally, if it were me, sign or no sign, if my son acts up, we are out of there. It is just common decency. We actually do not go out to nice restaurants very often, just for this reason. __________________ "Toughness is in the soul and spirit, not in muscles." ~Alex Karras

11-20-2005, 06:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	There is nothing more annoying than a misbehaving kid. I have seen kids climb on the back of the booths at a Denny's, a toddler running around the restaurant where I worked, pulling on the tables clothes, kids going full speed down the aisles of grocery stores...and not one parent grabbing that kid and reading them the riot act. When I asked the mother of the toddler where I worked to please seat him, the tables had glasses that could break, she shot me a look to kill. Once, my son threw a tantrum while in line in Walmart. Horrified, I tried to think what to do. Everyone was staring! While he sobbed, I said, 'stick out your tongue'. He did. "Now, sing your ABC's". He began to sing, still sobbing a bit, tongue sticking out. He began laughing, everyone around did as well, crisis averted. Had we been anywhere else, I would have and have gone so far as to hightail it outta there. Yea, kids cry, they scream, but parents can avert that to a point and if the kid is too young to be predictable and responsive, keep it home with a babysitter. The rest of us are out to get AWAY from our kids, not have to endure yours. Bravo to these business owners. I'm betting the very ones who are offended the most have the brattiest kids. __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

11-20-2005, 08:12 PM	#11 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	If I were a restaurant owner, I wouldn't say anything to the parents, I'd just punt the little fuckers into the next dimension. But seriously, it's good that the restaurant owner is making a stand. Parents nowadays are so fucking stupid that it kills me. They think they have every right in the world to do whatever they want. They also get offended and outraged over the most minor shit. Things that they aren't even right about. __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

11-20-2005, 06:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
ryfo Psycho Location: melbourne australia	Although I realise kids do scream and wander I also pay my hard earned money for a nice meal out or a cuppa in a cafe and I would like to enjoy myself and that means not listening to others children scream and run around unsupervised. Another pet hate is when the parent gives the kid something to occupy them and it just so happens to be something that makes alot of noise, I am not anti-kid but I think there are restaurants and eateries that cater for families, I do not go to McDonalds and expect peace and quiet.

11-20-2005, 08:30 PM	#13 (permalink)
cellophanedeity Heliotrope Location: A warm room	I tend to like kids, and don't really mind them when they're screaming. When they're screaming, it's the parents I dislike. Kids make noise, and sometimes (perhaps often) it's unpleasent noise. It happens. It's just that when these kids make these noises in public places, they should be quieted by parents. And when they behave, they're adorable. I was at Second Cup once, and a father and his daughter were there. She was so cute and well behaved, especially for a kid that couldn't have been more than four. "Daddy, can I please have hot chocolate?" I love well behaved children. I hate bad behaved parents.

11-20-2005, 08:53 PM	#15 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	Ones children are ones responsibility- when I was a child, if I could not behave, we left or did not go- what the hell happened to common courtesy, and why do people think that the owner of the place and the other patrons should have to deal with their brats- note that most of the problems cited were with kids old enough to be under controll, running around and doing stupid/ potentialy dangerous stuff- and many of the statements also involved parents ignoring their kids to read or talk, while in a pubilc place- this is not allowed in my book, for good reasons- Note that for the record, while I do not have kids(yet) it is on the list, and I hope that I can do a better job that a lot of those that i see.... Also note that I sell sharp, dangerous things for a living, so irresponsible parents of small kids with inquisitive fingers are a sore spot __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

11-20-2005, 09:02 PM	#16 (permalink)
ryfo Psycho Location: melbourne australia	Reading Ngdawg's comments reminded me of a time when Mrs Ryfo went to a popular restaurant that had booths and was seated next to young kids (they were at the back of her booth) The 'child' (or demon spawn- as Mrs Ryfo named him) proceeded to pull my wifes hair HARD and giggle and keep doing it. After informing the parent of what happened and turning away, IT HAPPENED AGAIN!! Turning quickly Mrs Ryfo yelled at the parent to watch her child or lock it up! (BTW young child = 6or 7 yrs old) As she explained to me she knew it was a family place, but she still thought basic manners were not alot to ask for, andshe didnt yell at the kid but the adult present.

11-21-2005, 08:48 AM	#18 (permalink)
Eweser Psycho Location: O-K-L-A-H-O-M-A	I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who thinks parenting has gotten slack. When my brother and I were kids, we were treated like most here have stated. Either you behaved or you got in trouble or you went home. I agree with the statements that it's the parents who are at fault, not the children. Children will do whatever parents let them get away with. __________________ "Whoever wrote this episode should die!"

11-21-2005, 09:23 AM	#19 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Just last night my wife, her friend, me and my two kids (aged 11 and 3) went out for dinner at local restaurant. My kids were generally well behaved throughout the dinner. At one point, my daughter started to act up. She was immediately given a warning to either behave or she would have to go outside. She repeated what she was doing and was taken by the hand and left outside the restaurant (we could see her standing out in the cold, not four feet from where we were sitting). She wasn't happy. She came in and apologized and enjoyed the rest of her meal. She wasn't an angel by any means (she likes to torment her older brother) but the goffiness was confined to the table and the volume was respectable for the extablishment. Too frequently, I see parents that just don't know, or are unwilling, to discipline their children. I just don't get it. It doesn't take much more than having an interest in your kids rather than yourself. That and a dose of self respect and respect for others. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

11-21-2005, 09:39 AM	#20 (permalink)
dkocolin Upright	i was on an NJ Transit train coming back from new york yesterday. there was a group of 5 or 6 kids on vacation with parents in the front of my car, and all i can say is thank god for noise-cancelling earbuds. every time i took them out to listen to an announcement the little brats were louder than before.

11-21-2005, 10:04 AM	#21 (permalink)
Hash_Browns Psycho Location: Right behind you...BOO!	I'm sorry, I couldn't handle reading all of these posts because I was to busy seeing everyone calling children Little Fuckers and Little Shits. COME ON! You are all the same people that are blaming this on the parents..so why do you have to insist on calling these children such names...it's trully disprespectful to ones of such innocense. Yes, I am a mother. I am a mother to three wonderful little girls, all under the age of 6 yrs. I totally agree with what these businesses are doing. I know how to plan around nap times, feeding times and breakdowns. I have sacrificed many a resturaunt of my own will because I know they are not a place for children. I have also found a wonderful place in my area called Java Jungle that has great coffe and a HUGE indoor play yard, slides and all. I have no qualms with people wanting peace where peace is expected, but don't start calling the kids names, call their parents those names because they are the ones who don't want to step up and take charge....the kids just don't know any better. Thank you very much, Sincerely, A Mom who would rather take the blame for her own actions then have her kids called something so derogitory, even if they don't hear it themselves. __________________ Smile It makes people wonder what you're up too! Last edited by Hash_Browns; 11-22-2005 at 09:48 AM.. Reason: Thanks Marv, guess I was typing to fast...I get like that sometimes ;)

11-21-2005, 10:08 AM	#22 (permalink)
flat5 Very Insignificant Pawn Location: Amsterdam, NL	as above, dag nabit!

11-21-2005, 10:33 AM	#25 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	As a parent, I support the owner. I also don't like poorly behaved children and make it a point to use them as "bad examples" for my own kids. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-21-2005, 11:23 AM	#26 (permalink)
canuckguy I read your emails. Location: earth	As a parent of a young one who could make your ears bleed with screams I respect the right of the owner to put up the sign, control your kids (not always possible!) or leave. Seems simple enough to me. His place, his rules. My house, my rules, pretty standard stuff here. I take my daughter all the time to restaurants, I just make sure they are kid friendly restaurants, places were you expect noise and confusing. Kids should go to mcdonalds, taco-bell...etc, not 5 star places with wine menu's. Plus as a parent, like I want to spend 12$ bucks on effing chicken fingers that my daughter is going to use as missiles anyway.

11-21-2005, 11:45 AM	#28 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	My daughter is 2 and she can sit through an hour long church service without making a sound. And this is with purely positive reinforcement! These are lazy, snobish parents who think that they run the world. Well, this resturant is a safe haven for those who don't like the shreiks and sounds of uncontroled kids. Shame on those parents for not knowing how to parent. /get's off soapbox As proud as I am of my daughter, I know that it is 100% natural for kids to act up, espically in a place as boring as a resturant. They DO bother other people, and disturb the general mood. Little kids don't belong at nice resturants or cafes. Take them to a kids eatery if you want to eat out. Chucky Cheese, despite having the worst pizza in history, loves to have kids and has plenty to keep them occupied.

11-21-2005, 12:09 PM	#30 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Whatever about the article but I am so sick of this 'sense of entitlement' crap that people keep spewing about. These soapboxes have gotten really high lately.

11-21-2005, 01:03 PM	#32 (permalink)
veruca Psycho Location: 4 privet drive	I am a server...and more often than not, I see children running rampant..swinging off rails, yelling, pushing things over. Just the other night, there was a child LAYING in the aisle next to the table, I tripped over him, and just barely missed spilling an entire tray of hot coffee on a table. His parents didn't say a word or even tell him to move. It is policy not to say anything, for fear of lawsuit. If I didn't need the damn job, I would have definately said something. I do not hate children, I hate parents who do not parent. It's not the child's fault, they are children and will do what they want if noone tells them what is right and wrong. __________________ How you turned my world, you precious thing You starve and near exhaust me Everything I've done, I've done for you I move the stars for no one

11-21-2005, 05:51 PM	#35 (permalink)
spindles Mine is an evil laugh Location: Sydney, Australia	It is nice for everyone to say "they should be better parents". Problem is there are no parent schools. Being a good parent is hard, and probably does not come naturally to too many people. I am an ok parent, but I'm certainly not fantastic. My personality is one that makes me avoid confrontation, but being a good parent means you have to confront your little beast at times. I have had to do things that are counter to my personality to be a better parent. Having said that, I have yet to take my child to a restaurant at all (out for coffee/milk shake yes, but full on meal no). I don't do McDonalds (very often) or the like because the food is generally shit - why should I go there? More often than not we eat at home - so there is no real issue, or we go to kid friendly places... He is only 18 months old, so not really ready for a proper sit down meal yet either My point is - it is fine to be high and mighty about how other people discipline their children, but that doesn't make good parenting easy. __________________ who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

11-21-2005, 06:29 PM	#39 (permalink)
Marvelous Marv Cunning Runt Location: Taking a mulligan	I favor this technique __________________ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher