Middle Class Gets in Line for Help With Rising Heating Bills

[Cynthetiq]

Middle Class Gets in Line for Help With Rising Heating Bills
By PAUL VITELLO

STONY BROOK, N.Y. - The main government assistance office in Suffolk County sits just off a busy road in an office park surrounded by a neighborhood of deep lawns and two-car garages. Everyone for miles around uses that road every day. But until recently, hardly anyone from the neighborhood - people whose status in the middle class was thought secured unquestionably by homeownership - ever turned into the office park to seek help inside the county's nondescript building.

This year, they have come in from the fear of the cold.

They are retirees, young couples, the temporarily unemployed, the two-income families stretched to the limit of second mortgages and credit cards, a slice of the suburban demographic that social workers call "mortgage rich and pocket poor."

The cost of natural gas heat, already high, has risen 50 percent since last year. Home heating oil prices are up 30 percent. What that means for the larger economy will be divined by economists.

A hint of what it portends for the average person, though, is apparent in early indications from offices like Suffolk's.

"We have more people applying for help, and more of them are in a higher income group than we've seen before," said Mark Wolfe, executive director of the National Energy Assistance Directors Association, a group of 50 state directors in charge of administering a federal home energy assistance program that offers one-time-per-winter cash benefits of $100 to $500.

"The sense is that there is a crisis coming," Mr. Wolfe said. "The question is, can the government get ahead of it?"

On a recent day, you could pick out the signs of the crisis in the first-timers at the assistance office: There was a woman in a tweed coat holding a coffee-colored leather handbag; an older man in a white shirt and tie, sitting stiffly beside a woman with a beauty parlor tint; a middle-age man with a battered attaché case open on his lap, expertly pushing a paper clip to fasten the documents he had brought.

All were applying for help through the Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program, or Liheap, though no one was exactly low income. All, as it happened, would be turned away for having incomes that exceeded the strict federal limits - $41,616 for a family of four, or $28,296 for a family of two.

"No speak English," said the woman in tweed when asked by a reporter to describe her predicament. She was about 60.

"Oh, don't be silly, mom," said a younger woman sitting beside her, who turned out to be her daughter. "Tell the man. There's nothing to be ashamed of."

The younger woman tersely explained her mother's predicament: Mom owns a house, is on a fixed income; received bills for oil heat last year totaling $2,000, which will be higher this year; needs help.

"I've never asked for anything before," said the older woman. "I've never been in a place like this, either."

In what could be a fundamental shift in the relationship between Americans and their energy supply, government officials and consumer advocates worry that this winter will deal the death blow to a long era of cheap energy.

The fear that energy could become "unaffordable," almost in the same sense that housing in some parts of the country is considered unaffordable, has raised alarms not only among consumer advocates but also utility executives and social workers.

Viviana Perez, the supervisor in Monmouth County, N.J., who is in charge of applications for Liheap aid, said that almost every day this month she has turned away about 20 people because they make more than the federal limits.

"I've been doing this nine years, and never have seen that before," she said.

Neil Gamson, an economist in the Energy Information Administration, an arm of the United States Department of Energy, said energy prices had not been as high as they are now in real dollars since 1981.

Volatility is considered standard in the energy markets, and spokesmen for the oil industry and advocates for consumers disagree about some market fundamentals - whether oil reserves have peaked or not, for example.

But there is a consistent consumer price trend, and it is upward.

Because they show a trend that predates the damage to oil and gas production in the Gulf of Mexico by Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, price increases tracked by the Energy Information Administration since the winter of 2002-3 are more telling than the increases of the last year.

Since 2002-3, home heating fuel prices have increased 50 percent, and natural gas 100 percent.

Frank and Leah Cohen of Long Beach, on Long Island, do not know those numbers but they have felt them viscerally, and adjusted to them in various ways. They keep their thermostat set at 68 degrees. They have closed off the first level of their three-bedroom split-level house.

The Cohens sometimes turn the heat off altogether and warm themselves in front of an electric space heater on the principle that there are laws against disconnecting a person's electricity in winter, but no laws against stopping deliveries of oil.

"And we eat two meals a day," said Mr. Cohen, who once owned a tire dealership. They eat breakfast and "luppa," he said. "It's lunch and supper in one. When you already cut expenses everywhere else, you have to get creative."

Elected officials from cold weather states have pushed hard for substantial increases in financing for the Low Income Home Energy Assistance Program, which provided about five million people with benefits last winter.

Those efforts, however, have so far failed to bring an increase from last year's allocation, which was about $2.2 billion. Governors and lawmakers say about $5 billion would be necessary to meet the needs of the six million eligible people expected to apply for aid this year.

A parallel drive to impose a windfall-profits tax on energy companies, which have reported record profits, has also stalled.

Fairly or not, the energy companies have taken much of the blame from those who pay an ever-larger share of income for heat.

"Look what I got from the oil company," said Marion Barnes of Uniondale, on Long Island, unfurling a printout of his heating oil bills from last winter, when prices averaged $2.25 a gallon - 55 cents less than they are today. A retired trucker, his monthly payments were piled on the page in a neat row, like cords of money: $356, $499, $374, $250, $377, and $302.

"Now they are charging me $2.80 a gallon. How much did Exxon make in the last year? They're taking that money out of my pocket," he said. "How am I supposed to pay this? I'm 66 years old."

Because of the high cost, and despite a 60- or 70-cent-per-gallon premium for deliveries of fewer than 100 gallons, fuel oil delivery companies report more customers asking for partial deliveries than ever before.

In a pinch, consumer advocates say, consumers will carry five-gallon cans to the nearest gas station to buy diesel fuel, which is interchangeable with No. 2 heating fuel in most oil-burning furnaces. It is more expensive than heating oil, but it can be bought in small quantities.

"That would be a desperation move," said John Huber, the spokesman for the National Oil Heat Research Alliance, "but it can be done safely, yes."

Mr. Huber said most fuel delivery companies would not refuse to deliver lesser amounts, but would most likely charge premiums or a fee for deliveries of less than 200 gallons. "Their operation costs are the same whether they deliver 100 or 200 gallons."

In the absence of increased federal assistance, some states have set aside money and started programs to protect their most vulnerable people.

New York, for example, has set aside $25 million to help people pay fuel bills. Massachusetts lawmakers last week approved $20 million. In Kansas, a state and volunteer drive helps the elderly insulate their homes.

In many states, fire marshals are teaching people how to use wood-burning stoves and kerosene and electric heaters, according to Diane S. Shea, executive director of the National Association of State Energy Officials.

As people turn to those alternatives from high-priced heat from oil and gas, Mrs. Shea said, "there is a great deal of concern about the potential for fires." Sellers of firewood report land-office business.

Other advocates worry more about the choices some people will face if this winter is very cold.

In a study released this year by the National Regulatory Resources Institute, the research arm of the National Association of Regulatory Utility Commissioners, people who struggled with their winter heating bills reported varying degrees of having gone without food, without medicine or dental care, of having taken less medication or of missing mortgage payments.

"We never missed a mortgage payment or a tax bill," said a woman at a government assistance office in Nassau County last week. "But we've been without heat or hot water since around March."

Gloria Boyd, a social worker from Notre Dame Roman Catholic Church in New Hyde Park who was helping the woman apply for assistance, leaned into the conversation at that point: "You should know that people come to our food pantry because they're paying for their utilities and their oil and they can't afford to buy food. Write that down. This is a bad situation."

Since we don't directly pay for our heating, we just got hit with an assessment for $10 each room in your apartment, so our maintenance just got higher by about $40/month for 1 year. We use a boiler heated by heating oil. It's quite efficient supposedly than natural gas or electricity.

those of you outside the US are you paying more for your heating?

[Charlatan]

Yes, the rates have gone up. But one of the laws our Parliment passed just before the predicted fall of the government this coming Tuesday was an energy rebate to assist those with lower incomes who need to heat their homes.

[Marvelous Marv]

"No speak English," said the woman in tweed when asked by a reporter to describe her predicament. She was about 60.

"Oh, don't be silly, mom," said a younger woman sitting beside her, who turned out to be her daughter. "Tell the man. There's nothing to be ashamed of."

The younger woman tersely explained her mother's predicament: Mom owns a house, is on a fixed income; received bills for oil heat last year totaling $2,000, which will be higher this year; needs help.

"I've never asked for anything before," said the older woman. "I've never been in a place like this, either."

While I semi-applaud her method of applying for assistance (because it points out the absurdity of the way we treat illegals), I wonder if she invested a quarter and checked the classifieds for a FREAKING JOB before she decided to live off everyone else's taxes. Or got some help from this daughter who had nothing better to do than sit around with her.

[JumpinJesus]

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

While I semi-applaud her method of applying for assistance (because it points out the absurdity of the way we treat illegals), I wonder if she invested a quarter and checked the classifieds for a FREAKING JOB before she decided to live off everyone else's taxes. Or got some help from this daughter who had nothing better to do than sit around with her.

I searched the thread and didn't see the mention of her being an illegal. Possibly I missed this, or possibly you were so quick to condemn that you assumed as much because of what she said?

I'm fairly certain this was an American woman who said "No speak English" because she didn't want to be interviewed.

It also turned out that she made too much money to receive the assistance.

What do you have against these people, anyway? You seem to be very quick with the anger when it comes to speaking of people on government assistance. $2,000 dollars for heat over the course of approximately 6 months works out to roughly $333 per month for heating. That's a fairly expensive utility for someone on a fixed income. What would be your suggestion to someone in this situation?

[ajpresto]

I don't think that we should blame anybody for attempting to receive assistance from the government. It's like the people who buy the books from Matthew Lesko - Free Money Now! It's not a bad thing to use the governmental programs that are in place.

[Marvelous Marv]

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

I searched the thread and didn't see the mention of her being an illegal. Possibly I missed this, or possibly you were so quick to condemn that you assumed as much because of what she said?

I'm fairly certain this was an American woman who said "No speak English" because she didn't want to be interviewed.

Or said it because it's easier for an illegal to get government assistance than it is for a US citizen.

What do you have against these people, anyway? You seem to be very quick with the anger when it comes to speaking of people on government assistance. $2,000 dollars for heat over the course of approximately 6 months works out to roughly $333 per month for heating. That's a fairly expensive utility for someone on a fixed income. What would be your suggestion to someone in this situation?

I would suggest getting a job that paid $6/hour, working 60 hours a month (that would be 1.5 weeks per month) and paying the bill herself.

That 1.5 weeks is probably more than necessary, because the $333 is the new total, and she wasn't paying zero under her former circumstances.

[Marvelous Marv]

Originally Posted by ajpresto

I don't think that we should blame anybody for attempting to receive assistance from the government. It's like the people who buy the books from Matthew Lesko - Free Money Now! It's not a bad thing to use the governmental programs that are in place.

I disagree. IMO, it's inappropriate for an able-bodied person to choose to live off the involuntarily taken funds of others.

I would have no problem with this woman asking a church or charity for assistance. They'd probably want to know why her daughter wasn't helping, though.

[phoenix1002]

While personally, I don't think a 60-year-old has any right to be retired if they don't have enough money set aside for living expenses, I think the article raises a valid point--many people who normally can just barely meet their expenses are going to have trouble this winter. I've just started renting this year, I'm personally a bit worried about how expensive heating the house is going to be this winter. I wonder if we'll start seeing a shift in heating practices soon in order to deal with the increased prices. I studied for a semester in Paris, and the vast majority of Parisian houses seem to be heated with electric heaters, which they turn on when they're in the room, and need immediate heat, but turn off at night or when the rooms are unoccupied, as opposed to the American approach, which is keeping the entire house heated all the time, or at least all day. Honestly, it seems that limited use of space heaters would be much more cost effective than trying to heat a whole house. But then again, it seems like Europe has been dealing with higher utility costs for much longer than we have here in the states, and are better equipped to deal with them.

[Charlatan]

What truly needs to be done is to make the housing codes stronger so that any new construction has higher R ratings and better design to make the houses more energy efficent.

Then there needs to be a program of some sort that would provide interest free loans to home owners so they can retrofit their homes and make them more energy efficent. The people can pay back their loans from the energy savings.

The upside of this is considerably lower energy consumption across the nation as well as an increase in jobs (someone will have to make the upgrades).


Again, my take on this is this: The same reason we don't have energy efficent homes is the same reason we don't have energy efficent vehicles... fuel costs are too low. If we had to pay the real cost of energy, including all the negative externalities, we would all be in line to buy more efficient vehicles and would demand more energy efficient housing...

[StanT]

Originally Posted by phoenix1002

I wonder if we'll start seeing a shift in heating practices soon in order to deal with the increased prices. I studied for a semester in Paris, and the vast majority of Parisian houses seem to be heated with electric heaters, which they turn on when they're in the room, and need immediate heat, but turn off at night or when the rooms are unoccupied, as opposed to the American approach, which is keeping the entire house heated all the time, or at least all day. Honestly, it seems that limited use of space heaters would be much more cost effective than trying to heat a whole house. But then again, it seems like Europe has been dealing with higher utility costs for much longer than we have here in the states, and are better equipped to deal with them.

My home is heated with electric baseboard heaters. While the ability to control temperature on a room by room basis is nice, you have my personal assurance that it isn't cheap(er). I have a wood burning stove with a forced air heat exchanger on order. I should be able to heat more than 1/2 of my house with wood.

[Ustwo]

Until a couple of years ago I was a full time (read poor) student and my wife was a secretary.

We had this revolutionary concept called not living above your means we applied to ourselves.

That equated to crappy cars, no expensive vacations, a moderate appartment, and holding off on starting a family. We weren't perfect with it, and we did start to get a bit of creditcard debt, but oddly the bills were paid and we saved enough of our budget for sudden and unexpected expenses. We also were not working THAT hard, and could have easily held other jobs if we really wanted to.

My sympathy here is nil. Get a freeking job, life owes you nothing.

[Charlatan]

Originally Posted by StanT

My home is heated with electric baseboard heaters. While the ability to control temperature on a room by room basis is nice, you have my personal assurance that it isn't cheap(er). I have a wood burning stove with a forced air heat exchanger on order. I should be able to heat more than 1/2 of my house with wood.

Stan... yes, heating with wood is much cheaper. But ask yourself this question: What if everyone heated with wood?

It just isn't practical... the decrease in air quality and the huge amounts of deforestation would be devestating.

[Leto]

fuel costs for me? I live in Toronto, in an old house (built in the late 'teens I think) so I have had to do some insulating in the attic, and I replaced the windows last year with argon sealed casement windows. I have just contracted a heating firm to replace our aging (installed 1982) gas furnace with a new top of the line Lennox mid efficiency gas furnace. This is going to cost $2900 after taxes and rebates.

Since I have not signed up with any natural gas purchase plan, I pay system gas prices for my heating through the gas company (enbridge) which means that the cost is hovering at around 32 cents per cubic metre.

The re-seller's plans all have their gas prices locked into to about 5 yrs of 43 cents per cubic meter, I guess banking on peace of mind for the consumer, although I have never paid more for my gas than the so-called plans have been offering since de-regulation took effect in the late '90's.

So what does the bottom line work out to for me? My last year's total gas bill worked out to $1700 and change for my 2 story brick detached house. And it was a colder than usual winter too. I also pay my gas bill on equal billing so my bill is about $177 per month. Even through the summer.

Since my current furnace is about 40% efficient, and my new one is specified to be 85% efficient, I should save approx $480 off of my heating cost (the hot water heater and stove account for about $500 of my annual bill).

There are a couple of houses on my street who still take heating Oil deliveries, and they are trying to convert to natural gas for the savings involved.

Charl, your house should be very similar to mine, maybe cheaper, to heat, as i feel that mine is like sieve sometimes!!!

[Leto]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Until a couple of years ago I was a full time (read poor) student and my wife was a secretary.

We had this revolutionary concept called not living above your means we applied to ourselves.

That equated to crappy cars, no expensive vacations, a moderate appartment, and holding off on starting a family. We weren't perfect with it, and we did start to get a bit of creditcard debt, but oddly the bills were paid and we saved enough of our budget for sudden and unexpected expenses. We also were not working THAT hard, and could have easily held other jobs if we really wanted to.

My sympathy here is nil. Get a freeking job, life owes you nothing.

my wife and I have the same spend philosphy. No credit bill ever rolls over. We actually save for and purchase cars using cash. This meant that our first car was an '82 chevette, followed by a '79 Lebaron. But we forced ourselves to save until we had the dough to by the 97 jetta outright. Now we are closing in on the savings for an '05 CRV. No vacations for us either. 3 kids, and small driving trips (drove us in the Jetta to PEI last summer) but the house is paid for now. and there is no real debt burden. We both just worked and saved.

[StanT]

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Stan... yes, heating with wood is much cheaper. But ask yourself this question: What if everyone heated with wood?

It just isn't practical... the decrease in air quality and the huge amounts of deforestation would be devestating.

Actually, the stove I've ordered is EPA certified with a secondary combustion chamber (think catalytic convertor) and is environmentally cleaner than most gas or fuel oil furnaces. It is specifically exempted from Denver's burning restrictions for that reason. While it isn't a practical solution for everyone, the national forest and an endless supply of down/dead firewood is only 200 yards from my home.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't primarily interested in reducing my heating bill, but it seems to be environmentally responsible, as well.

[Charlatan]

No question about the practicallity and even environmental responsibility of it for where you are... but imagine if everyone in New York or Denver or Chicago switched to burning wood?

My brother has a high efficiency wood burning system in his back yard out (he lives in the country side about an hour and half north of Toronto. It fuels a boiler that circulates the hot water through a forced air exchanger. It also heats his water supply.

My argument is that on a small scale or in a rural environment, it is practical.

Large scale and urban or suburban, not so much.

[Marvelous Marv]

Originally Posted by Leto

my wife and I have the same spend philosphy. No credit bill ever rolls over. We actually save for and purchase cars using cash. This meant that our first car was an '82 chevette, followed by a '79 Lebaron. But we forced ourselves to save until we had the dough to by the 97 jetta outright. Now we are closing in on the savings for an '05 CRV. No vacations for us either. 3 kids, and small driving trips (drove us in the Jetta to PEI last summer) but the house is paid for now. and there is no real debt burden. We both just worked and saved.

but I must rant now. How long will people like you continue to act responsibly, when you watch others milk the government tit?

That's my answer to the earlier question along the lines of "If the government program is there, why not use it?"

To extend the question, why would anyone in New Orleans buy home insurance, after they watch the taxpayers pay those who didn't? Why do the families of those killed in 9/11 get taxpayer dollars? Are they disqualified if the deceased had life insurance? Etc. etc.

Government giveaways are the slipperiest slope of all.

[raeanna74]

We applied for Energy Assistance. We are in the 'low income' strata though we make it pretty well considering. We're a family of 3 living off of 2 meger incomes totalling barely more than 20,000 a year. We bought a home only last year but our mortgage payments after getting rid of our credit cards are not more than our rent (at low income housing) was before.

We are currently though planning some work to insulate the most drafty portions of the house. Hopefully starting in the next week or two - soon as the contractor gets the bid in. We're doing all we can. Our thermostat is rarely set for more than 65 degrees F.

[Leto]

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

but I must rant now. How long will people like you continue to act responsibly, when you watch others milk the government tit?

That's my answer to the earlier question along the lines of "If the government program is there, why not use it?"

To extend the question, why would anyone in New Orleans buy home insurance, after they watch the taxpayers pay those who didn't? Why do the families of those killed in 9/11 get taxpayer dollars? Are they disqualified if the deceased had life insurance? Etc. etc.

Government giveaways are the slipperiest slope of all.

Well, we continue because that is our set of values. Welfare has always been around, but never an option. The insurance question is tricky. But typically the replacement that insurance provides is minimal. I hesitate to make claims agains my own home insurance when it isn't catstrophic. I expect that if my house was destroyed, I would make a suite of claims - my own insurance, govt assistance and my own pocket to get me back to my old standing.

[ngdawg]

Now it's MY turn to go on a rant, re: those who think people aren't paying their own way.

My husband makes about 60,000 a year. This has included overtime.
This past year, the overtime has been almost non-existent. I finished school and, because I worked there as workstudy, lost that job and it took me seven months to find a seasonal retail job, giving up my hopes of finding something in my field.
I contacted a credit counselling service. We have an income of $3100 a month. Sounds good, right? Well, our bills are $3800 a month now, with student loans due.
We're considered middle-class and can't pay our heating bills. How DARE you think these people should just buck up and get a job!!! Pretty damned presumptuous of you.
We eat cheap, haven't had steak but once all year and only because our kids were away. I don't buy uneeded things for myself-don't even have enough clothes for work without being creative. My son has 4 pairs of pants that fit and he is still growing.
Instead of lambasting people you don't know and making assumptions, be grateful you aren't the one standing in line asking for help. Some of us work our asses off and still have to.
The nerve......

[filtherton]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Until a couple of years ago I was a full time (read poor) student and my wife was a secretary.

We had this revolutionary concept called not living above your means we applied to ourselves.

That equated to crappy cars, no expensive vacations, a moderate appartment, and holding off on starting a family. We weren't perfect with it, and we did start to get a bit of creditcard debt, but oddly the bills were paid and we saved enough of our budget for sudden and unexpected expenses. We also were not working THAT hard, and could have easily held other jobs if we really wanted to.

My sympathy here is nil. Get a freeking job, life owes you nothing.

Your lucky neither your nor your wife needed expensive long term medical coverage. You know, the kind that's responsible for roughly half of all bankruptcies in america. Living within your means is great, but don't pretend that you weren't lucky to be able to do so.

It doesn't logically follow that everyone is able to do something just because you were able to do it. You should know this already.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by filtherton

Your lucky neither your nor your wife needed expensive long term medical coverage. You know, the kind that's responsible for roughly half of all bankruptcies in america. Living within your means is great, but don't pretend that you weren't lucky to be able to do so.

It doesn't logically follow that everyone is able to do something just because you were able to do it. You should know this already.

I'm also smart enough to have had medical insurance coverage, which came in handy when my wife was almost killed in a car accident.

Luck has little to do with it, its called being prepared. Very few people get in trouble because of luck, they get in trouble because of poor choices. I don't think its the american peoples job to pay for others poor choices.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

Now it's MY turn to go on a rant, re: those who think people aren't paying their own way.

My husband makes about 60,000 a year. This has included overtime.
This past year, the overtime has been almost non-existent. I finished school and, because I worked there as workstudy, lost that job and it took me seven months to find a seasonal retail job, giving up my hopes of finding something in my field.
I contacted a credit counselling service. We have an income of $3100 a month. Sounds good, right? Well, our bills are $3800 a month now, with student loans due.
We're considered middle-class and can't pay our heating bills. How DARE you think these people should just buck up and get a job!!! Pretty damned presumptuous of you.
We eat cheap, haven't had steak but once all year and only because our kids were away. I don't buy uneeded things for myself-don't even have enough clothes for work without being creative. My son has 4 pairs of pants that fit and he is still growing.
Instead of lambasting people you don't know and making assumptions, be grateful you aren't the one standing in line asking for help. Some of us work our asses off and still have to.
The nerve......

This is going to sound harsh, but you did a field of study you can't find a job in and now owe money for that schooling. Did you research job oportunities priror to entering that field of study? Should tax payers now cover this error?

[Cynthetiq]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I'm also smart enough to have had medical insurance coverage, which came in handy when my wife was almost killed in a car accident.

Luck has little to do with it, its called being prepared. Very few people get in trouble because of luck, they get in trouble because of poor choices. I don't think its the american peoples job to pay for others poor choices.

very true. while my collegues are busy buying PSPs XBox 360s and all the latest electronics, I've been building my own personal warchest to help stave off as much of the rainy day issues that may crop up in life.

I drive a Neon (finally paid off) and don't plan on buying a new car until some of the investments pay out. Otherwise I'm not like my collegues who seem to like to have continual carpayments seem to buy car after car after car. And it's not just car, have to get the rims, tint the windows, put in the stereo, et. al.

People do make bad choices, yes that's true. There are also people out there who do have real need. Those people I'd like to help.

[ngdawg]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

This is going to sound harsh, but you did a field of study you can't find a job in and now owe money for that schooling. Did you research job oportunities priror to entering that field of study? Should tax payers now cover this error?

How many actually do research in their fields of interest? But, since you're asking, the field is wide enough, I just haven't found a job in it, yet. I AM a taxpayer, as are many in the same boat...you are still being presumptuous. These are the very taxes I've paid into more than half my life.
You DO realize that as this economy swings downward as it has, even orthodontia is gonna feel the pinch as we 'middle-class' cut out such extravagances as braces.
Count your blessings....

[Bill O'Rights]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

You DO realize that as this economy swings downward as it has, even orthodontia is gonna feel the pinch as we 'middle-class' cut out such extravagances as braces.
Count your blessings....

Actualy...I kinda wonder about that. There is a trend amoungst the middle-class to keep up appearances. And I have to think that having a hardware store in little Susie's moth would definately be one of the appearances that would be kept up.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by ngdawg

How many actually do research in their fields of interest?

I had several subjects I liked a hell of a lot more in school than dentistry.

Astronomy - Loved it, still love it, maybe I could have been great at it, only way to make any money is teach it to others. Passed.

Marine Biology - Loved it, still love it, maybe could have been great at it, very little money outside of trying to get lucky with pharmaceuticals, and most likely if I were doing that I'd just be working for someone else who would make the real money. Passed.

Anthropology - dittos dittos - passed

Archeology - dittos dittos - passed

So I guess I thought beyond the joy of learning when getting my degree. I just didn't wake up one day and say 'ooh I like teeth, lets be a dentist, I hope I can use it to raise a family.'

But, since you're asking, the field is wide enough, I just haven't found a job in it, yet. I AM a taxpayer, as are many in the same boat...you are still being presumptuous. These are the very taxes I've paid into more than half my life.

And because you paid taxes you are owed money now? There is a never ending black hole forming right there. I think we all pay to damn much in taxes, and a large part of it is so we can pay for others bad choices.

You DO realize that as this economy swings downward as it has, even orthodontia is gonna feel the pinch as we 'middle-class' cut out such extravagances as braces.
Count your blessings....

Well when the economy was in a downturn I did feel the pinch, and now that things are in an upturn its getting better again, but so what? Even if braces were outlawed you would not find me on welfare. I've worked damn hard in my life and would continue to do so. I've done ever job from mucking horse stalls (thats shoveling shit for you city folk) to surgery and I think I can find a place in-between for me.

[ngdawg]

There you go again being presumptuous...quite a hobby...
I'm not city folk, first off.
Second, good for you-you raked up horseshit, now your hands go into mouths for exorbitant fees. Ever occur to you that others worked just as hard only to see their company move to Colombia or maybe get seriously hurt enough not to work? Of course not-that horse you now sit on is too high. Not everyone settles for what's going to bring them the greatest return for their educational investment and for that, I truly feel sorry for you.
It still stands that what's lucrative today may not be tomorrow. In three years we went from having financial freedom, two new cars and the comfort that allowed me to go to school to now finding ways to reduce our debt without begging for help.
Yea, I'm entitled...pay up. Who the hell are you to tell me what choices we've made were bad or good? You're one malpractice suit away from the same scenario.

[flstf]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

And because you paid taxes you are owed money now? There is a never ending black hole forming right there. I think we all pay to damn much in taxes, and a large part of it is so we can pay for others bad choices.

I agree mostly. But I find it hard to get too down on the lower and middle class for taking advantage of the system when the wealthy and politically connected are scarfing up the lion's share. I know two wrongs don't make a right but...

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Well when the economy was in a downturn I did feel the pinch, and now that things are in an upturn its getting better again, but so what? Even if braces were outlawed you would not find me on welfare. I've worked damn hard in my life and would continue to do so. I've done ever job from mucking horse stalls (thats shoveling shit for you city folk) to surgery and I think I can find a place in-between for me.

I have also done my share of mucking horse stalls and construction laboring, etc.. and worked my way up to a high salary engineering profession. However at age 53 I was downsized and it is very difficult to find work once you reach a certain age. I think there may be something at McDonald's or Walmart but I haven't tried. We are fortunate to have invested enough to retire early but I know several who are not fairing so well and have had their savings wiped out from medical expenses, etc..even though they had insurance. I believe there are many out there who are not doing so well and not necessarily because they made bad choices..

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by flstf

We are fortunate to have invested enough to retire early

You made a good choice, you were not fortunate, you were smart.

[raeanna74]

I have seen many abuses of the system. I have also seen many people who legitimately needed the system and it helped them get back on their feet. - We are one example.

Hubby had a severe accident 4 years ago. We did have health insurance that covered a lot. The total hospital bills (not sutracting what insurance paid) were over $50,000. The helicopter ride alone was over $12,000 and the two ambulances were expensive too. In fact the heart monitor patches they used on the ambulance were $20 a piece. Hubby was not allowed to drive or go back to work for 3 months. When he was finally able to get back to work his employer laid him off because they did not need him anymore. So we went another 3 months and an expensive relocation in order for him to find work. During that time we had no choice but to use our credit card for gas and minimal groceries. I was working but it wasn't enough to do more than pay rent and utilities. We had an infant at the time as well. The time out of work, plus the MANY unexpected bills were more than we could handle.
At this point, in four years, we've worked hard, finally saved, bought a house, and paid off all our bills. We don't even own a credit card and we only have the mortgage. When we need stuff we save for it. We still have homeowners insurance and health insurance. BUT even with both of us working we are not able to earn enough to handle the increase in heating costs without draining the savings that we hope to pay our property TAXES with. BTW our property taxes (not prime land either by a long shot) for 1/4 of an acre are over $1300/year. We paid less than $50,000 for our home btw.

I have an education and am self employed (when business is good I can bring in more than hubby in a week) and hubby has a steady job that he's worked at for more than 3 years even though he doesn't like his boss much. We work. The last time we went for a vacation was over 6 years ago when he and I got married. The last time we stayed in a hotel it was because we'd been given a gift certificate for a stay at the SUPER 8. Yeah we're livin high off the government. Whohoo. (Oh and before you say that we much have spent money on the computer that we've got - I got my monitor out of the dumpster when we were living at apartments, and hubby put the rest of the computer together, some were scavanged parts - some of which came from the junk heap of electronics that a college I worked for was dumping out.) My best winter coat I got on clearance at Walmart for $5 last spring. The clothes I"m wearing now I've gotten from the thrift store. Tell me where I'm wasting the money, making bad decisions, or USING the government? I fail to see it.

[snowy]

It's not as easy to get a job as some of you in this thread seem to think. I have a fairly diverse resume, lots of work experience for someone my age, and yet I found it difficult to secure employment when I went job-searching earlier this year. The job I finally found was a temporary position in retail.

Also, as for working sixty hours a week in order to pay off bills--very few employers will let you pull more than 30 any more, especially any entry level job you may get. Even when I was working full-time in a restaurant as a line cook, I never worked more than 32 hours a week. I've only ever had one job that allowed me to pull overtime.

So let's consider it's hard to find one job in the first place, and that job only allows you part-time hours, maybe up to 32 hours a week. That means, in order to create your scenario of income generation, we have to come up with another 30 hours. If it was so difficult to find a first job, how difficult do you think it will be to find a second? When will you find the time with working? And if, like me, you're working an odd shift and sleep at odd hours, how much harder will that make your job search? How hard do you think this would be for a woman of 60, who likely spent most of her life as a housewife until her husband passed on? How hard do you think this would be for someone who has already retired some years before, but now must find work because of tight times--someone whose skills are no longer relevant, and someone who is now in direct competition with me--the younger, healthier applicant. I'm lucky to be young and able-bodied.

Given the current job market where I live, I'm lucky to have a job at all. And being as poor as I am, I can understand why people need assistance. Heating costs are high, and turning off the heat in the dead of winter is just not an option. Neither is running out and finding a job right off the bat--and those of you who seem to think so need to realize that.

[eribrav]

So I'm curious: Of those who can't make ends meet, and feel they should get help with heating bills, how many: 1. Smoke?
2. Have cable TV?
3. Have cell phones?
4. Spend grocery money on soda and other high-markup, non- nutritional foods?

[Grasshopper Green]

At the risk of a continuing threadjack....

What I really want to know, is everyone supposed to forgo low paying careers (teaching, anthropologist, etc, I'm not talking about jobs that don't require college or vocational schooling) just so they can make more money? To hell with following one's dreams/goals/etc so they can make an extra buck? And if so, what about those jobs that have been abandoned? I guess no one needs to teach our kids, or study our past, or study wildlife, etc. Are we supposed to live our lives preparing for the next disaster, waiting for the next misfortune, or actually LIVE our lives the way we want to, low paying job or no?

My dad is an elementary school teacher, and my hubby makes as much as a laborer as he does. He loves his job. It gives him great satisfaction....and he gave up an engineering job that paid him three times as much as he makes now to do something he wanted to do, and he excels in his field. I'm glad that not everyone subscribes to more more more philosophy that seems to be permeating this country, because a lot of kids would have been shortchanged....and this is just one example.

[filtherton]

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I'm also smart enough to have had medical insurance coverage, which came in handy when my wife was almost killed in a car accident.

Luck has little to do with it, its called being prepared. Very few people get in trouble because of luck, they get in trouble because of poor choices. I don't think its the american peoples job to pay for others poor choices.

Luck is very often the difference between a poor choice and a great one. Not every one is as able as you apparently were. A lot of people didn't get the "how to be prepared" memo that you apparently got. It's great that you didn't need help, but you're a fool if you think that the fact that you didn't need help means that nobody else deserves help.

[raeanna74]

Originally Posted by eribrav

So I'm curious: Of those who can't make ends meet, and feel they should get help with heating bills, how many: 1. Smoke?
2. Have cable TV?
3. Have cell phones?
4. Spend grocery money on soda and other high-markup, non- nutritional foods?

1. Neither of us smoke, or even drink very often. We rarely if ever go to a bar and if we do we get soda and not higher priced alcoholic drinks.

2. Yes we have cable but we only get basic - no premium channels. We have gone without it at times and cannot get more than one channel clearly and 2 other channels with snow where we live.

3. We have a prepaid cell phone for emergencies only. We have no long distance on our home phone.

4. We rarely buy soda.(Rarely being once every month or two.) One reason I work from home is so that I can make more of our meals from scratch. We rarely buy any ready to serve meals or foods. We rarely go out to eat even. Twice a month for us to go out to eat is a treat and we usually don't spend more than $30 (which is an expensive meal) for the three of us. Hubby takes a sandwich for lunch at work most days as well.

[ngdawg]

We smoke-get ours from a reservation for less than half-price. Quit twice-stress keeps bringing me back to it.
We have basic cable.
We have cell phones as the home phone is for local calls or call in only(the kids don't have cell phones and I refuse to get them) Spouse will be turning his phone back in-that will cut the bill in half.
We don't allow soda or candy in the house as a matter of course or part of the shopping-they are considered treats and rarely bought. I do, however buy my daughter flavored water-it's the only water she will drink and she dehydrates very easily.
We don't go out anymore, except to Wendy's as a family. At least there we can feed all of us for about $20-there's something wrong when a fast food dinner is cheaper than a homemade one. (I use a lot of hamburger meat-meatloaf, spaghetti and meatballs, chilli, etc are at least cheap)
Many of the things we do have we acquired when the living was good, like our 2 pc's and the cars, which we own outright.
In our case, the need for a new roof last fall and the subsequent loss of my part-time income, along with the loss of spouse's constant overtime, put a major dent in expendable income. Couple that with the exorbitant rise of fuel costs, which of course comes reflected not only in our own expenditures, but in food shopping expenses, etc and the downward spiral is apparent. We won't touch the retirement fund or insurances, although that's an option.
In September, my student loans came due, adding over $200 a month to our already stretched budget. Filing bankruptcy was not something I wished to initiate-luckily we live in a very overpriced housing market so we've applied for a home equity line of credit. That will pay off the major student loan and two credit cards at least, reducing our bills by over $200 a month.
I was given contacts for applying for reduced utility bills, but have not yet called. Many of these centers go by your gross income, which is not a reflection of what you actually live on. Retirement fund, health insurance, etc., eat a big chunk of the base pay; it was the overtime that truly paid for living expenses. We missed the school free lunch program by less than $100 a week.
Too many times, the criteria used for determining who is eligible for what is faulty-using federal standards in New Jersey is unrealistic at best. We could live like kings in Arkansas....here we can barely get by and in talking to neighbors and friends, we are not alone at all. Those that were doing so well a year ago are either playing bill-paying bingo or have filed for bankruptcy.

[Ustwo]

Originally Posted by Medusa99

At the risk of a continuing threadjack....

What I really want to know, is everyone supposed to forgo low paying careers (teaching, anthropologist, etc, I'm not talking about jobs that don't require college or vocational schooling) just so they can make more money? To hell with following one's dreams/goals/etc so they can make an extra buck?

You can feel free to follow your dreams, goals, etc, and I recommend it, but you should not expect others to pick you up if you fall.

Very few people have myopic goals if they really think about them. My goals would have been as follows, and all were of about equal importance.

1. Do something I enjoy doing.
2. Do something where I can make enough to raise a family.
3. Do something which had job security.
4. Work for myself.

Now lets take one of my first joys, which was marine biology, and how it applies to the 1-4.

1. Yes, I enjoy doing it very much.
2. If my wife worked too then we could raise a family.
3. You are as secure as your next grant.
4. Very unlikely. Best you could hope for is running your own lab (mostly) and I know from personal experience what that is like to run a lab with school bureaucracy.

So it didn't fit my goals.

Now if you REALLY do love something and are willing to take a hit in other areas, go for it, and enjoy your life that way. Despite what you are told there is nothing special about an education for the sake of education (and think who really preaches this sort of thing). If you want to go out and become a Sandscrit major thats great, but no one owes you anything when you can't find a job.