Are we seeing the collapse of America as a superpower? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Strange Famous · 09-04-2005, 01:12 AM

The human cost of the tragedy in New Orleans is surely huge, and the imcompetence of the government in dealing with, not to metion the latent racism that this disaster has unleasged, has I'm sure been covered in depth in many places.

But my thought is, is this the decline of America itself as a superpower? (in the same way that Russia has declined since the 1980's)... what is the pyschological damage done to a nation by not only its utter powerlessness to protect its people, but by the fact that as a nation it is possible to fill the area with new's crew's and media reporting, but not to get enough food or water there, ot to be incapable of evacuating a large sports stadium in a majort American city.

The financial and social cost will be huge, in my opinion New Orleans is not recoverable - or at least the cost of recovery is far higher than that of relocation. But for a city of 1.2 million to be destroy - this has to have a huge impact.

A lot of people have talked about America's economy being on dangerous ground, the financial cost of the campaign in Iraq has been huge.. my feeling is that America cannot endure this disaster and remain a superpower on a global scale.

America will not become poor overnight, nor will it become without military power... but I dont think America can dominate the political agenda as it has done. Already China and the EU are challenging America economically.

All history teaches us that every empire in history will collapse, every superpower will either be toppled or will fade. I believe we are now witnessing the fading of American power. This disaster has shown weaknesses in the American society that may have been effectively covered up, it will cause pyschological damage to the general will of the nation, the economic and social damage is massive.

Of course, first and foremost before any of this... this is a human tragedy of great magnitude. It would be wrong to make comparisons to the Boxing Day tsunami, but a massive amount of innocent life has been lost.

But I think also, the long term effects now are starting to be considered.

I am also interested to see if Bush can survive the backlash to his handling of events,,, it seems that perhaps he has survived the worst... but he may now be a liability to his party they cannot afford to carry into the next election?

blahblah454 · 09-04-2005, 02:04 AM

I do agree that USA is starting its decline as the top world power, but I feel it started much before this. I think ever since Bush had his "You are either with us or against us, terrorism has no middle ground" was the defining moment in the US decline. That is about the time when the countries of the UN stopped backing USA and the world stopped being bullied. The hurricane was indeed a tragic event for the entire country, and it will greatly affect america. The fact that American soldiers are being ordered into New Orleans with orders to "shoot to kill" is stated pretty clearly that a very serious problem is arising.

/end my two cents

scout · 09-04-2005, 02:23 AM

If this is the beginning of the end then good. I'm tired of carrying the burden of the world on my back. I'm tired of policing the world. I'm tired of sending my tax money to a bunch of ungrateful bastards. I'm sick of it all. All foreign aid should cease immediately. Bring all our troops home. Fuck the world. We have things here that need to be taken care of. The rest of the world can kiss my fat white ass.

/end my two cents

Hanabal · 09-04-2005, 04:04 AM

Im glad you weren't being serious there scout, but you should be more careful, some people can't tell sarcasm and might take offense.

Anyway. My question, I have noticed a number of times US authorities stating somthing along the lines of "This is the worst natural disaster in history". Do they actually think this? Do they not remember less than 9 months ago?

I really did think it was strange how I could get daily images of people suffering yet noone was helping them. Who was taking the picture and why weren't they helping?

ShaniFaye · 09-04-2005, 04:21 AM

Everytime I've heard that phrase Hanabal, it was worded as "This is the worst natural diaster in AMERICAN history" not of the world

ratbastid · 09-04-2005, 04:57 AM

Seconded, Shani. I've even heard news outlets comparing and contrasting the destruction with that caused by the christmas tsunami. Worst nat disaster in US history, for sure (unless you count the loss of species and cultures caused by the 1800s' westward expansion, but that's more of a manmade disaster, and it didn't happen all at once, and there were no 24-hour news channels on the scene).

I think it's about time the US lost some of its supremacy. Maintaining a superpower status has kept us separate from the rest of the world, above other countries. It has prevented true multiculturalism and pluralism. Our attempts at having a global view are thinly-veiled moves to manipulate and dominate the rest of the globe. If it's time for the US to move down a peg, then so be it.

Hanabal · 09-04-2005, 04:58 AM

ahhh, thanks for the clarification.

kramus · 09-04-2005, 05:48 AM

I think this is less a sign of decline and more a symptom of an unfocussed and rather confused state entity in need of transformation and reassessment. The profligate expenditure of energy in disparate and sometimes conflicting goals needs to be reevaluated with an eye towards just what USA believes it's core identity is.

The opinions of the wider world do not have to be taken as America's own. Their opinions are useful in showing what blind spots exist in the American psyche. After all, the world is made up of nations that have their own identities, goals and agendas which can be diametrically opposed to values important to America. The dialogue between nations is important in allowing progress world-wide while allowing the expression of individuality - a truly human thing we must accept as a part of our race. For we are all individuals, and we are social animals, and we are slowly becoming aware of the potentials that those two factors create.

Now America really ought to use this time to give itself an opportunity to grow in a positive human way. With a long view that involves something more than universal Republic Democracy or whatever her current banner is. America is an amazing, wonderful place. It is also conflicted and self-damaging and has a tendancy towards enormous blunders while trying to fulfill it's inchoate goals and desires.

America can be the way of the future for many many generations to come. It is a positive beacon in ways innumerable for billions of people. It also is a scary, dangerous, half-blind and almost psychotic giant. I want America to be healthy and happy because I truly believe that it is the existing thesis of superpower direction we need as a race. However, there is a synthesis required - a transformation that must happen - to allow America to continue to be the positive beacon instead of the complex lesson it so far appears to be.

No, this is not the collapse of America as a superpower. This is one of many warnings however that America must wake up, grow up, and be all that it ought to be. Which is quite different than being all that it can be.

$.o2

hulk · 09-04-2005, 05:59 AM

The biggest problem is that nearly all of the non-americans in the world don't have the best opinion of America. Misinformed or not, it's still far from the most ideal situation for a country to be in. Massive debt all round, a stretched and anachronistic military force, incompetent leaders in many positions and an attitude of 'Fuck you world, I'm American', which if not the true majority, is certainly a very vocal minority.

scout · 09-04-2005, 06:38 AM

Amazing. People are told before the hurricane hit that if they come to the Super Dome for shelter bring enough food and water for 5 days. Organizing food and water for +30000 people don't happen overnight. It takes 4 days for help to arrive in force. Suddenly we are losing are "superpower" status and we nothing but a bunch of rascist thugs that don't care about the black people. Bullshit.

Mobilizing the National Guard for deployment generally takes several months. Here it happened in 4 days.

Bush didn't drop the ball. The local and state government dropped the ball. The local and state government is responsible for and to their constituients until help can arrive from the federal level. There was a total breakdown of government on the local level and a partial breakdown at the state level. There was reports and video tapes of a few of the local police joining the looters. Some of the police just waltzed off and away from their responsibilities. The Mayor did nothing for three days then showed up at the Super Dome whining like a little bitch and generally making an ass of himself. That is not leadership. The Governor could have mobilized the LA National Guard several days before the hurricane hit to assist getting the sick and poor out of the city. She did nothing but order a complete evacuation and then act surprised that there was so many left in the city. To this day she has done very little to assist her constituients.

What a fuckin' mess.

Cynthetiq · 09-04-2005, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scout

If this is the beginning of the end then good. I'm tired of carrying the burden of the world on my back. I'm tired of policing the world. I'm tired of sending my tax money to a bunch of ungrateful bastards. I'm sick of it all. All foreign aid should cease immediately. Bring all our troops home. Fuck the world. We have things here that need to be taken care of. The rest of the world can kiss my fat white ass.

/end my two cents

while some may think that hannibal wants this to be sarcasm. I want it to be true, except kiss my lightbrown skinned filipino ass.

You can't fix the neighborhood if your house is not in order. I understand that one must do both since we don't live in a time vaccum, but each country has had their isolationist period... maybe it's time we do that again.

DEI37 · 09-04-2005, 07:20 AM

^^ Couldn't agree more. This is more of a local and state government issue than a federal gov't problem, as far as I'm concerned.

Stompy · 09-04-2005, 07:37 AM

America started its decline when senators and lawmakers stopped focusing their thoughts on what's good and right for the people and started bending over for those who can donate the most money.

One good example is the RIAA/MPAA piracy fiasco.. DMCA, copyrighting, etc. Driven by pure greed and misinformation.

As a result, our country is no longer honorable and bright. No longer focused on the benefit of the people that elect them into power.. so it deserves to fall.

alansmithee · 09-04-2005, 07:41 AM

Man, look at all the vultures circling. Somehow an isolated failure to respond to a natural disaster means that America is going down? Please. America seemed to do fine last year when Florida was hit with five hurricanes; much of this disaster can be directly attributed to the failure of Louisiana state gov't to have adequate disaster recovery.

America isn't going anywhere for a long time. China might rise in power, but even that's debatable. And China will never rise as high simply because their growth comes at the expense of the majority of their people, and doesn't enrich them to the extent that their economic growth would be expected to. And as for the EU, most of the member nation's economies are in serious trouble. Besides, especially after the elections earlier this year, seeing them as a single political entity seems naive at best since many in the member nations themselves aren't in favour of linking up any more than in the loose economic ways they have currently.

texxasco · 09-04-2005, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

The human cost of the tragedy in New Orleans is surely huge, and the imcompetence of the government in dealing with, not to metion the latent racism that this disaster has unleasged, has I'm sure been covered in depth in many places.

But my thought is, is this the decline of America itself as a superpower? (in the same way that Russia has declined since the 1980's)... what is the pyschological damage done to a nation by not only its utter powerlessness to protect its people, but by the fact that as a nation it is possible to fill the area with new's crew's and media reporting, but not to get enough food or water there, ot to be incapable of evacuating a large sports stadium in a majort American city.

The financial and social cost will be huge, in my opinion New Orleans is not recoverable - or at least the cost of recovery is far higher than that of relocation. But for a city of 1.2 million to be destroy - this has to have a huge impact.

A lot of people have talked about America's economy being on dangerous ground, the financial cost of the campaign in Iraq has been huge.. my feeling is that America cannot endure this disaster and remain a superpower on a global scale.

America will not become poor overnight, nor will it become without military power... but I dont think America can dominate the political agenda as it has done. Already China and the EU are challenging America economically.

All history teaches us that every empire in history will collapse, every superpower will either be toppled or will fade. I believe we are now witnessing the fading of American power. This disaster has shown weaknesses in the American society that may have been effectively covered up, it will cause pyschological damage to the general will of the nation, the economic and social damage is massive.

Of course, first and foremost before any of this... this is a human tragedy of great magnitude. It would be wrong to make comparisons to the Boxing Day tsunami, but a massive amount of innocent life has been lost.

But I think also, the long term effects now are starting to be considered.

I am also interested to see if Bush can survive the backlash to his handling of events,,, it seems that perhaps he has survived the worst... but he may now be a liability to his party they cannot afford to carry into the next election?

.... Nope .... This is not the decline of the USA as a superpower. Some people think tooooooo much!

texxasco · 09-04-2005, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanabal

Im glad you weren't being serious there scout, but you should be more careful, some people can't tell sarcasm and might take offense.

Anyway. My question, I have noticed a number of times US authorities stating somthing along the lines of "This is the worst natural disaster in history". Do they actually think this? Do they not remember less than 9 months ago?

I really did think it was strange how I could get daily images of people suffering yet noone was helping them. Who was taking the picture and why weren't they helping?

"This is the worst natural disaster in _________ history" The missing word is: American, U.S., The United States.... Not the world.....

Justsomeguy · 09-04-2005, 08:17 AM

Why are the two even relevant? I think the issue is for the people still stuck in the area at the moment as well as the losses everyone has sustained. Essentially, reobtaining some form of normalcy.

However, why is there a need to analyze every damn situation as a political issue? Or look past what the current problem is? The current problem is not with the status of the U.S. Sure, the United States should learn from this experience in how to better prepare for the future. Sure, Govenor Blanco has been shitty throught as well as FEMA. This is most likely true. However, that shouldn't be the concern at the moment. People will learn, but to take any attention away from the current loss to examine how this is going to affect the society as a whole is just damn retarded at this stage. There will be plenty of time for that later when this whole disaster is sorted out.

feelgood · 09-04-2005, 08:18 AM

I invite everybody to read the essay on the collaspe of the USSR
USSR Collaspe

Try to compare events of the 80s and 90s to the current world event, especially those of the Americans before you start running around screaming that the age of americanism is coming to an end (or whatever you're screaming about)

noodle · 09-04-2005, 08:51 AM

I sure hope it is. I agree with all those who are tired of carrying everyone else along. American government (yes, I'm aware I'm generalizing) is pompous and arrogant. "You're either with us or against us." Riiiight. Where is option 'C'? Some countries just don't care. The Mayor of Atlantis (oh, sorry, New Orleans) is screaming "Get down your asses down here and fix this". Literally. Um, "Hi! You were warned long before that this was going to happen and didn't do anything about it. Remember that?!" Sorry, I'm a little jaded and upset that so many in government positions that keep popping up on television are making excuses for their lack of proactivity. People are dying because of lack of preparation--their own and that of their government. Many Americans are quick to pick up a cause when they see things happening around the world, but how many really believe that we're not immune to it? A la "That's so sad, thank goodness ________ won't ever happen here."

We are America. Hear us roar. We will kick you out if you make a stink about anything, you.. you... you... Foreigners! But you'd better help us when we're in hot water! Welcome to reality, America.

/stepping off soapbox...

filtherton · 09-04-2005, 09:13 AM

I think america is in decline, but mostly for reasons unrelated to the hurricane. We are soon going to be at the point where there will be a huge shortage of scientists and engineers because america has created a culture where intelligence is frowned upon.
Ten percent of the combined workforce of india and china ends up being more people than have american citizenship. Thanks to the global market, these people will be able to do many of our jobs at a fraction of the cost. We have massive national debt, much of which is owned by china, the country shaping up to be one of our largest economic competitors. It doesn't look good for america's superpowerdom. What scares me most is what we as a country are going to do in response to our loss of stature.

powerclown · 09-04-2005, 09:31 AM

We can rebuild it. We have the technology.
We have the capability to make the world's first Bionic state.
New Orleans will be that state. Better than it was before.
Better . . . stronger . . . faster.

feelgood · 09-04-2005, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

We can rebuild it. We have the technology.
We have the capability to make the world's first Bionic state.
New Orleans will be that state. Better than it was before.
Better . . . stronger . . . faster.

Um...isn't that what everybody said after WTC? After 4 years, are you guys any closer?

optik_nerve · 09-04-2005, 10:27 AM

I don't think events like this is going to be the demise of America, but I do think it is the start of what will be the demise.

Stompy · 09-04-2005, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I think america is in decline, but mostly for reasons unrelated to the hurricane. We are soon going to be at the point where there will be a huge shortage of scientists and engineers because america has created a culture where intelligence is frowned upon.

100% correct.

I'm glad others realize and understand this problem.

To put it bluntly, most people in this country are just really f'n stupid. It's sad.

canuckguy · 09-04-2005, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feelgood

Um...isn't that what everybody said after WTC? After 4 years, are you guys any closer?

i believe he is referring to the old tv show 6 million dollar man.

Ustwo · 09-04-2005, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

We can rebuild it. We have the technology.
We have the capability to make the world's first Bionic state.
New Orleans will be that state. Better than it was before.
Better . . . stronger . . . faster.

Thanks Powerclown you saved me from having to make a similar response.

pan6467 · 09-04-2005, 01:52 PM

I don't believe this event shows decline. It shows many things but not decline. Although combined the weaknesses show problems we need to workout as a nation.

The US will never fall as a "superpower" our egos are too great and we have nukes. People would rather enter losing wars and threaten the world that if they aren't with us they are against us and they could be next. Bush may have done this but it was grandstanding and he has since kissed some asses to try to smooth some ruffled feathers.

World view of us changes as we change presidents and policies, so it bothers me but doesn't signal our end until the world reacts to their negative views. When countries start demanding they collect on their debt, instead of protesting actions like Iraq actually going to war with us, and so on, and until that happens I'm not going to worry. I may see signs of it coming and talk about it happening, but I'd rather be safe then let it happen and not have tried to stop it.

As for the weaknesses and problems this has shown (in my views and opinion only):

We have a president that knows how to go to war but not how to handle true disaster at home.

We have 2 political parties jockeying for power and both are passing the buck and waited to long to do anything.

We are too involved militarily in Iraq and have greatly shortened and hurt our own homeland defenses and systems to help in these cases.

We have people who DESERVE tax monies (they paid into the system) to help them and the money and assistance, food, water, shelter, are being used as political power.

We have a mayor that truly earned my respect and told the truth..... that when the WTC fell Bush was everywhere making sure there was help..... with this he has been relatively quiet and slow. And the BS the president has to wait for the governor is just that, he didn't wait in NYC. One could argue NYC is more important, more people and all.... but that is an excuse for slow reactions.

This also shows no matter how "civilized" a society given the right scenarios we revert back to animal instinct and as painful as it is to watch 1000's die, we have 10,000's surviving and finding ways to live. "American" spirit? No, TRUE HUMAN spirit, that will be talked about as "American" by people who want to wave flags.

But the worst is the Limbaughs, O'Reillys, Robertsons and company that have made this political and religious. I am saddened to see people ask if N.O. is worth being rebuilt and the negativity they show. It's fucking B.S. and not what this country used to be about. We used to rebuild bigger and stronger and worked to make sure we were ready the next time...... respect was shown to those who died by our rebuilding and making sure we learn from events. (Of course, when a hurricane hits S.Carolina, or Fla. or the East Coast, we don't even question about rebuilding...... but here one has to ask, if this were an 80% rich white majority and not 80% poor black majority would things have been and would the future of things to come be different........ I sure as hell hope they wouldn't.... but the question as ignorant as it sounds has to be asked.)

All the negativity out now, I also see great oppurtunity to be had here.

Jobs created to help rebuild not just N.O. but the whole area hit, Mississippi, Alabama, etc. Those economies will boom and will help the nation as a whole.....

Of course that was said about WTC and it didn't really help.... but it wasn't to this extent.

It will be interesting to see how our nation reacts to the overt racism that has been shown. And if President Bush spends as much down there on the families and businesses hit as he did on the WTC families and airlines.

Marvelous Marv · 09-04-2005, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

I think america is in decline, but mostly for reasons unrelated to the hurricane. We are soon going to be at the point where there will be a huge shortage of scientists and engineers because america has created a culture where intelligence is frowned upon.
Ten percent of the combined workforce of india and china ends up being more people than have american citizenship. Thanks to the global market, these people will be able to do many of our jobs at a fraction of the cost. We have massive national debt, much of which is owned by china, the country shaping up to be one of our largest economic competitors. It doesn't look good for america's superpowerdom. What scares me most is what we as a country are going to do in response to our loss of stature.

I was only mildly frightened until you made this post. I agreed with it 100%.

That's terrifying.

Willravel · 09-04-2005, 01:57 PM

It's someone else's turn now. Whoever it is (China?), I wish them the best of luck and I warn them to try to do what is best for all, in addition to what they think is the best for their own people. The biggest mistake of a superpower is to be selfish. The spread of globalization and it's various connections to econemy and politics make it impossible to go it alone anymore.

It's good that we won't be the dominant world power anymore. I'd like to see a reorganization of miliraty (and military funding) in order to be more for defence and less for offence. I see no reason to have so very many bases in other countries. I haven't seen my cousin in 3 years because he's been stationed at several bases that are on the other side of the world.

Marvelous Marv · 09-04-2005, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

100% correct.

I'm glad others realize and understand this problem.

To put it bluntly, most people in this country are just really f'n stupid. It's sad.

It's saddest when they're stupid enough to believe they don't have to do anything, because the government will do it all for them.

The overpowering thought that keeps recurring to me when I see those people crowded into hellhole shelters resembles a line from Animal House: "Face it, you fucked up. You trusted us."

Nobody should make that mistake, but way too many Americans do. And they're allowed to vote.

Rodney · 09-04-2005, 10:02 PM

I'm going to restate the question a little: not, "Is America in decline," but rather, "Is America weak?"

It wouldn't seem likely, with our thousands of nuclear weapons and high-tech weaponry unmatched by anybody in the world. But consider the constraints we operate under:

* The government has made noises that it might try military force to take out Iran's nuclear capability. But all we can do is an air strike. We certainly can't invade Iran or any place else -- we're tied down in Iraq, bleeding people and money. And the world knows it. In fact, we can't do anything to Iran that affects the orderly production of oil in Iran. Iran knows it, and the example of Katrina shows everyone what might happen to the world economy if Iran's few million barrels a day was taken out of the oil supply.

* We can't actively oppose anybody, really, who supplies oil to us or to our allies. Pat Robertson aside, the gov't would like Hugo Chavez gone. But Venezuela supplies a good hunk of our oil, so how mad can we make him? Same with Saudi Arabia. Did they get off lightly in 9/11? Of course. Did we have any choice? Nope.

* We can't do much militarily about North Korea because China would not be pleased with military intervention. China has got the big veto.

* We can't P.O. China in any serious way, or raise serious protectionist barriers against Chinese imports, because they (and Japan, and some others) loan us the money we need to keep our government going and also to buy houses at cheap interest rates. Somebody recently joked that American economic growth these days largely consists of people making money buying houses off each other with money loaned by the Chinese. There's some scary truth in that.

* With our government increasingly depending on money from overseas to keep running (the deficit and all) how long before our overseas creditors start calling the shots? We're certainly giving them more and more power to do so. And if we piss them off enough that they don't buy our t-bonds, we can only keep going by either slashing the budget and the military, or printing more and more worthless money and diluting the dollar until it's devalued 50 or 75 percent, with a noticeable effect on our cost of living.

We've got all the cool weapons in the world, but we've bound ourselves in chains and are going deeper into debt each day.

Are we strong?

Willravel · 09-04-2005, 10:12 PM

So we have nukes, so what? Nukes do not equal power, because MAD ensures they aren't used by governmental organizations. The real answer to the question would be if a military power took us on directly (like China blows up L.A.), which woulnd't happen. They are destroying us economically.

Ustwo · 09-04-2005, 10:42 PM

America is in decline in some ways, but the thing is all the other major powers were in a far bigger tail spin and our over all power is thereby increased.

About the only real current worry is the Chinese. Socialism has made Europe weak and whiney, Russia is too busy joining the 21st century, and places like Brazil and India have too many internal issues to focus elsewhere.

jwoody · 09-05-2005, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

...Socialism has made Europe weak and whiney...

Europe is a continent, not a country.

Ustwo · 09-05-2005, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwoody

Europe is a continent, not a country.

Yes, I am well aware, but thanks for trying to help

jwoody · 09-05-2005, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Yes, I am well aware, but thanks for trying to help

Well, the difference is important when mentioned in the same paragraph as China and Russia.

Sage · 09-05-2005, 07:00 AM

Man, what I think is scary is that if China were to bring its population up to the same level of consumption that Americans have, then it would take 4 Earths just to produce enough food and resources to keep China going, much less the rest of the world. (Was a factoid given by the most respected teacher I've ever had in the best class I've ever had, and no I don't have a website to back that claim up). I believe us to be living in the decline of the WORLD, not just the US. Everyone fighting, oil potentally running out, everyone in debt to everyone else, no one knowing what's going on because there's so much doubt and misinformation running around. I know this is all transient, and it isn't real, but sometimes it's hard to not get lost in the big play that is life and start freaking out a-la Chicken Little style.

Another thing I have noticed is that people who grew up with a very stable goverment and who grew up believing firmly and wholly that America is Great are having a very, very passe' attitude towards everything. LIke, people my parent's age (in their 50s, 60s, and 70s) are thinking "oh, everything's fine, we're fine, the goverment is great, the president (no matter who he is) is fabulous, I love Nick at Nite." Meanwhile, everyone who grew up post Nixon (and you know, I think that really was the first time the pillar of American "superiority" was shaken) is realizing that this whole "globlization" thing has some very worrying side effects- mainly, eventually everyone is going to want to have what those in the richest and most diversified countries have, and they're not gonna care who they step on or what they fuck up to get there.

I for one am glad that I don't believe in the Second Coming, because if I did I'd probably be walking around with a sign that says "The End of the World is Near!"

basmoq · 09-05-2005, 07:20 AM

I can only wait for our downfall, can't stand how cocky this stinkin country is, we need a good slap in the face! I think the president could use to go live in a third world country as a peasant for a while, see what real life is like for real people.

Mr Honest · 09-05-2005, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

. Socialism has made Europe weak and whiney, .

? You mean Capitalism or the former Stalinist countries of the east?

good riddance to the US as a superpower when it comes, good riddance to every stinking Empire of massacres of brutality and control whatever language they speak.

Marvelous Marv · 09-05-2005, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Honest

? You mean Capitalism or the former Stalinist countries of the east?

good riddance to the US as a superpower when it comes, good riddance to every stinking Empire of massacres of brutality and control whatever language they speak.

Edit: Never mind. It was funny, but it might get me in hot water.

It's just that this post reminded me of a departed member.

09-04-2005, 01:12 AM	#1 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Are we seeing the collapse of America as a superpower? The human cost of the tragedy in New Orleans is surely huge, and the imcompetence of the government in dealing with, not to metion the latent racism that this disaster has unleasged, has I'm sure been covered in depth in many places. But my thought is, is this the decline of America itself as a superpower? (in the same way that Russia has declined since the 1980's)... what is the pyschological damage done to a nation by not only its utter powerlessness to protect its people, but by the fact that as a nation it is possible to fill the area with new's crew's and media reporting, but not to get enough food or water there, ot to be incapable of evacuating a large sports stadium in a majort American city. The financial and social cost will be huge, in my opinion New Orleans is not recoverable - or at least the cost of recovery is far higher than that of relocation. But for a city of 1.2 million to be destroy - this has to have a huge impact. A lot of people have talked about America's economy being on dangerous ground, the financial cost of the campaign in Iraq has been huge.. my feeling is that America cannot endure this disaster and remain a superpower on a global scale. America will not become poor overnight, nor will it become without military power... but I dont think America can dominate the political agenda as it has done. Already China and the EU are challenging America economically. All history teaches us that every empire in history will collapse, every superpower will either be toppled or will fade. I believe we are now witnessing the fading of American power. This disaster has shown weaknesses in the American society that may have been effectively covered up, it will cause pyschological damage to the general will of the nation, the economic and social damage is massive. Of course, first and foremost before any of this... this is a human tragedy of great magnitude. It would be wrong to make comparisons to the Boxing Day tsunami, but a massive amount of innocent life has been lost. But I think also, the long term effects now are starting to be considered. I am also interested to see if Bush can survive the backlash to his handling of events,,, it seems that perhaps he has survived the worst... but he may now be a liability to his party they cannot afford to carry into the next election? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

09-04-2005, 04:04 AM	#4 (permalink)
Hanabal Insane Location: Auckland	Im glad you weren't being serious there scout, but you should be more careful, some people can't tell sarcasm and might take offense. Anyway. My question, I have noticed a number of times US authorities stating somthing along the lines of "This is the worst natural disaster in history". Do they actually think this? Do they not remember less than 9 months ago? I really did think it was strange how I could get daily images of people suffering yet noone was helping them. Who was taking the picture and why weren't they helping? __________________ I am Hanabal, Phear my elephants

09-04-2005, 04:21 AM	#5 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Everytime I've heard that phrase Hanabal, it was worded as "This is the worst natural diaster in AMERICAN history" not of the world __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

09-04-2005, 04:58 AM	#7 (permalink)
Hanabal Insane Location: Auckland	ahhh, thanks for the clarification. __________________ I am Hanabal, Phear my elephants

09-04-2005, 05:48 AM	#8 (permalink)
kramus loving the curves Location: my Lady's manor	I think this is less a sign of decline and more a symptom of an unfocussed and rather confused state entity in need of transformation and reassessment. The profligate expenditure of energy in disparate and sometimes conflicting goals needs to be reevaluated with an eye towards just what USA believes it's core identity is. The opinions of the wider world do not have to be taken as America's own. Their opinions are useful in showing what blind spots exist in the American psyche. After all, the world is made up of nations that have their own identities, goals and agendas which can be diametrically opposed to values important to America. The dialogue between nations is important in allowing progress world-wide while allowing the expression of individuality - a truly human thing we must accept as a part of our race. For we are all individuals, and we are social animals, and we are slowly becoming aware of the potentials that those two factors create. Now America really ought to use this time to give itself an opportunity to grow in a positive human way. With a long view that involves something more than universal Republic Democracy or whatever her current banner is. America is an amazing, wonderful place. It is also conflicted and self-damaging and has a tendancy towards enormous blunders while trying to fulfill it's inchoate goals and desires. America can be the way of the future for many many generations to come. It is a positive beacon in ways innumerable for billions of people. It also is a scary, dangerous, half-blind and almost psychotic giant. I want America to be healthy and happy because I truly believe that it is the existing thesis of superpower direction we need as a race. However, there is a synthesis required - a transformation that must happen - to allow America to continue to be the positive beacon instead of the complex lesson it so far appears to be. No, this is not the collapse of America as a superpower. This is one of many warnings however that America must wake up, grow up, and be all that it ought to be. Which is quite different than being all that it can be. $.o2 __________________ And now to disengage the clutch of the forebrain ... I'm going with this - if you like artwork visit http://markfineart.ca

09-04-2005, 02:04 AM	#2 (permalink)
blahblah454 Let's put a smile on that face Location: On the road...	I do agree that USA is starting its decline as the top world power, but I feel it started much before this. I think ever since Bush had his "You are either with us or against us, terrorism has no middle ground" was the defining moment in the US decline. That is about the time when the countries of the UN stopped backing USA and the world stopped being bullied. The hurricane was indeed a tragic event for the entire country, and it will greatly affect america. The fact that American soldiers are being ordered into New Orleans with orders to "shoot to kill" is stated pretty clearly that a very serious problem is arising. /end my two cents

09-04-2005, 02:23 AM	#3 (permalink)
scout Psycho	If this is the beginning of the end then good. I'm tired of carrying the burden of the world on my back. I'm tired of policing the world. I'm tired of sending my tax money to a bunch of ungrateful bastards. I'm sick of it all. All foreign aid should cease immediately. Bring all our troops home. Fuck the world. We have things here that need to be taken care of. The rest of the world can kiss my fat white ass. /end my two cents

09-04-2005, 04:57 AM	#6 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Seconded, Shani. I've even heard news outlets comparing and contrasting the destruction with that caused by the christmas tsunami. Worst nat disaster in US history, for sure (unless you count the loss of species and cultures caused by the 1800s' westward expansion, but that's more of a manmade disaster, and it didn't happen all at once, and there were no 24-hour news channels on the scene). I think it's about time the US lost some of its supremacy. Maintaining a superpower status has kept us separate from the rest of the world, above other countries. It has prevented true multiculturalism and pluralism. Our attempts at having a global view are thinly-veiled moves to manipulate and dominate the rest of the globe. If it's time for the US to move down a peg, then so be it.

09-04-2005, 05:59 AM	#9 (permalink)
hulk C'mon, just blow it. Location: Perth, Australia	The biggest problem is that nearly all of the non-americans in the world don't have the best opinion of America. Misinformed or not, it's still far from the most ideal situation for a country to be in. Massive debt all round, a stretched and anachronistic military force, incompetent leaders in many positions and an attitude of 'Fuck you world, I'm American', which if not the true majority, is certainly a very vocal minority. __________________ "'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review.

09-04-2005, 06:38 AM	#10 (permalink)
scout Psycho	Amazing. People are told before the hurricane hit that if they come to the Super Dome for shelter bring enough food and water for 5 days. Organizing food and water for +30000 people don't happen overnight. It takes 4 days for help to arrive in force. Suddenly we are losing are "superpower" status and we nothing but a bunch of rascist thugs that don't care about the black people. Bullshit. Mobilizing the National Guard for deployment generally takes several months. Here it happened in 4 days. Bush didn't drop the ball. The local and state government dropped the ball. The local and state government is responsible for and to their constituients until help can arrive from the federal level. There was a total breakdown of government on the local level and a partial breakdown at the state level. There was reports and video tapes of a few of the local police joining the looters. Some of the police just waltzed off and away from their responsibilities. The Mayor did nothing for three days then showed up at the Super Dome whining like a little bitch and generally making an ass of himself. That is not leadership. The Governor could have mobilized the LA National Guard several days before the hurricane hit to assist getting the sick and poor out of the city. She did nothing but order a complete evacuation and then act surprised that there was so many left in the city. To this day she has done very little to assist her constituients. What a fuckin' mess.

09-04-2005, 07:20 AM	#12 (permalink)
DEI37 Go faster! Location: Wisconsin	^^ Couldn't agree more. This is more of a local and state government issue than a federal gov't problem, as far as I'm concerned. __________________ Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

09-04-2005, 07:37 AM	#13 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	America started its decline when senators and lawmakers stopped focusing their thoughts on what's good and right for the people and started bending over for those who can donate the most money. One good example is the RIAA/MPAA piracy fiasco.. DMCA, copyrighting, etc. Driven by pure greed and misinformation. As a result, our country is no longer honorable and bright. No longer focused on the benefit of the people that elect them into power.. so it deserves to fall. __________________ I love lamp.

09-04-2005, 07:41 AM	#14 (permalink)
alansmithee Junkie	Man, look at all the vultures circling. Somehow an isolated failure to respond to a natural disaster means that America is going down? Please. America seemed to do fine last year when Florida was hit with five hurricanes; much of this disaster can be directly attributed to the failure of Louisiana state gov't to have adequate disaster recovery. America isn't going anywhere for a long time. China might rise in power, but even that's debatable. And China will never rise as high simply because their growth comes at the expense of the majority of their people, and doesn't enrich them to the extent that their economic growth would be expected to. And as for the EU, most of the member nation's economies are in serious trouble. Besides, especially after the elections earlier this year, seeing them as a single political entity seems naive at best since many in the member nations themselves aren't in favour of linking up any more than in the loose economic ways they have currently.

09-04-2005, 08:17 AM	#17 (permalink)
Justsomeguy Insane	Why are the two even relevant? I think the issue is for the people still stuck in the area at the moment as well as the losses everyone has sustained. Essentially, reobtaining some form of normalcy. However, why is there a need to analyze every damn situation as a political issue? Or look past what the current problem is? The current problem is not with the status of the U.S. Sure, the United States should learn from this experience in how to better prepare for the future. Sure, Govenor Blanco has been shitty throught as well as FEMA. This is most likely true. However, that shouldn't be the concern at the moment. People will learn, but to take any attention away from the current loss to examine how this is going to affect the society as a whole is just damn retarded at this stage. There will be plenty of time for that later when this whole disaster is sorted out.

09-04-2005, 08:18 AM	#18 (permalink)
feelgood Free Mars! Location: I dunno, there's white people around me saying "eh" all the time	I invite everybody to read the essay on the collaspe of the USSR USSR Collaspe Try to compare events of the 80s and 90s to the current world event, especially those of the Americans before you start running around screaming that the age of americanism is coming to an end (or whatever you're screaming about) __________________ Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war Last edited by feelgood; 09-04-2005 at 08:24 AM..

09-04-2005, 09:13 AM	#20 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think america is in decline, but mostly for reasons unrelated to the hurricane. We are soon going to be at the point where there will be a huge shortage of scientists and engineers because america has created a culture where intelligence is frowned upon. Ten percent of the combined workforce of india and china ends up being more people than have american citizenship. Thanks to the global market, these people will be able to do many of our jobs at a fraction of the cost. We have massive national debt, much of which is owned by china, the country shaping up to be one of our largest economic competitors. It doesn't look good for america's superpowerdom. What scares me most is what we as a country are going to do in response to our loss of stature.

09-04-2005, 09:31 AM	#21 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	We can rebuild it. We have the technology. We have the capability to make the world's first Bionic state. New Orleans will be that state. Better than it was before. Better . . . stronger . . . faster.

09-04-2005, 10:27 AM	#23 (permalink)
optik_nerve Psycho Location: Florida	I don't think events like this is going to be the demise of America, but I do think it is the start of what will be the demise.

09-04-2005, 01:52 PM	#27 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	I don't believe this event shows decline. It shows many things but not decline. Although combined the weaknesses show problems we need to workout as a nation. The US will never fall as a "superpower" our egos are too great and we have nukes. People would rather enter losing wars and threaten the world that if they aren't with us they are against us and they could be next. Bush may have done this but it was grandstanding and he has since kissed some asses to try to smooth some ruffled feathers. World view of us changes as we change presidents and policies, so it bothers me but doesn't signal our end until the world reacts to their negative views. When countries start demanding they collect on their debt, instead of protesting actions like Iraq actually going to war with us, and so on, and until that happens I'm not going to worry. I may see signs of it coming and talk about it happening, but I'd rather be safe then let it happen and not have tried to stop it. As for the weaknesses and problems this has shown (in my views and opinion only): We have a president that knows how to go to war but not how to handle true disaster at home. We have 2 political parties jockeying for power and both are passing the buck and waited to long to do anything. We are too involved militarily in Iraq and have greatly shortened and hurt our own homeland defenses and systems to help in these cases. We have people who DESERVE tax monies (they paid into the system) to help them and the money and assistance, food, water, shelter, are being used as political power. We have a mayor that truly earned my respect and told the truth..... that when the WTC fell Bush was everywhere making sure there was help..... with this he has been relatively quiet and slow. And the BS the president has to wait for the governor is just that, he didn't wait in NYC. One could argue NYC is more important, more people and all.... but that is an excuse for slow reactions. This also shows no matter how "civilized" a society given the right scenarios we revert back to animal instinct and as painful as it is to watch 1000's die, we have 10,000's surviving and finding ways to live. "American" spirit? No, TRUE HUMAN spirit, that will be talked about as "American" by people who want to wave flags. But the worst is the Limbaughs, O'Reillys, Robertsons and company that have made this political and religious. I am saddened to see people ask if N.O. is worth being rebuilt and the negativity they show. It's fucking B.S. and not what this country used to be about. We used to rebuild bigger and stronger and worked to make sure we were ready the next time...... respect was shown to those who died by our rebuilding and making sure we learn from events. (Of course, when a hurricane hits S.Carolina, or Fla. or the East Coast, we don't even question about rebuilding...... but here one has to ask, if this were an 80% rich white majority and not 80% poor black majority would things have been and would the future of things to come be different........ I sure as hell hope they wouldn't.... but the question as ignorant as it sounds has to be asked.) All the negativity out now, I also see great oppurtunity to be had here. Jobs created to help rebuild not just N.O. but the whole area hit, Mississippi, Alabama, etc. Those economies will boom and will help the nation as a whole..... Of course that was said about WTC and it didn't really help.... but it wasn't to this extent. It will be interesting to see how our nation reacts to the overt racism that has been shown. And if President Bush spends as much down there on the families and businesses hit as he did on the WTC families and airlines. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

09-04-2005, 01:57 PM	#29 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	It's someone else's turn now. Whoever it is (China?), I wish them the best of luck and I warn them to try to do what is best for all, in addition to what they think is the best for their own people. The biggest mistake of a superpower is to be selfish. The spread of globalization and it's various connections to econemy and politics make it impossible to go it alone anymore. It's good that we won't be the dominant world power anymore. I'd like to see a reorganization of miliraty (and military funding) in order to be more for defence and less for offence. I see no reason to have so very many bases in other countries. I haven't seen my cousin in 3 years because he's been stationed at several bases that are on the other side of the world.

09-04-2005, 10:02 PM	#31 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	I'm going to restate the question a little: not, "Is America in decline," but rather, "Is America weak?" It wouldn't seem likely, with our thousands of nuclear weapons and high-tech weaponry unmatched by anybody in the world. But consider the constraints we operate under: * The government has made noises that it might try military force to take out Iran's nuclear capability. But all we can do is an air strike. We certainly can't invade Iran or any place else -- we're tied down in Iraq, bleeding people and money. And the world knows it. In fact, we can't do anything to Iran that affects the orderly production of oil in Iran. Iran knows it, and the example of Katrina shows everyone what might happen to the world economy if Iran's few million barrels a day was taken out of the oil supply. * We can't actively oppose anybody, really, who supplies oil to us or to our allies. Pat Robertson aside, the gov't would like Hugo Chavez gone. But Venezuela supplies a good hunk of our oil, so how mad can we make him? Same with Saudi Arabia. Did they get off lightly in 9/11? Of course. Did we have any choice? Nope. * We can't do much militarily about North Korea because China would not be pleased with military intervention. China has got the big veto. * We can't P.O. China in any serious way, or raise serious protectionist barriers against Chinese imports, because they (and Japan, and some others) loan us the money we need to keep our government going and also to buy houses at cheap interest rates. Somebody recently joked that American economic growth these days largely consists of people making money buying houses off each other with money loaned by the Chinese. There's some scary truth in that. * With our government increasingly depending on money from overseas to keep running (the deficit and all) how long before our overseas creditors start calling the shots? We're certainly giving them more and more power to do so. And if we piss them off enough that they don't buy our t-bonds, we can only keep going by either slashing the budget and the military, or printing more and more worthless money and diluting the dollar until it's devalued 50 or 75 percent, with a noticeable effect on our cost of living. We've got all the cool weapons in the world, but we've bound ourselves in chains and are going deeper into debt each day. Are we strong?

09-04-2005, 10:12 PM	#32 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	So we have nukes, so what? Nukes do not equal power, because MAD ensures they aren't used by governmental organizations. The real answer to the question would be if a military power took us on directly (like China blows up L.A.), which woulnd't happen. They are destroying us economically.

09-04-2005, 10:42 PM	#33 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	America is in decline in some ways, but the thing is all the other major powers were in a far bigger tail spin and our over all power is thereby increased. About the only real current worry is the Chinese. Socialism has made Europe weak and whiney, Russia is too busy joining the 21st century, and places like Brazil and India have too many internal issues to focus elsewhere. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-05-2005, 07:00 AM	#37 (permalink)
Sage hoarding all the big girl panties since 2005 Location: North side	Man, what I think is scary is that if China were to bring its population up to the same level of consumption that Americans have, then it would take 4 Earths just to produce enough food and resources to keep China going, much less the rest of the world. (Was a factoid given by the most respected teacher I've ever had in the best class I've ever had, and no I don't have a website to back that claim up). I believe us to be living in the decline of the WORLD, not just the US. Everyone fighting, oil potentally running out, everyone in debt to everyone else, no one knowing what's going on because there's so much doubt and misinformation running around. I know this is all transient, and it isn't real, but sometimes it's hard to not get lost in the big play that is life and start freaking out a-la Chicken Little style. Another thing I have noticed is that people who grew up with a very stable goverment and who grew up believing firmly and wholly that America is Great are having a very, very passe' attitude towards everything. LIke, people my parent's age (in their 50s, 60s, and 70s) are thinking "oh, everything's fine, we're fine, the goverment is great, the president (no matter who he is) is fabulous, I love Nick at Nite." Meanwhile, everyone who grew up post Nixon (and you know, I think that really was the first time the pillar of American "superiority" was shaken) is realizing that this whole "globlization" thing has some very worrying side effects- mainly, eventually everyone is going to want to have what those in the richest and most diversified countries have, and they're not gonna care who they step on or what they fuck up to get there. I for one am glad that I don't believe in the Second Coming, because if I did I'd probably be walking around with a sign that says "The End of the World is Near!" __________________ Sage knows our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's She answers hard acrostics, has a pretty taste for paradox She quotes in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus In conics she can floor peculiarities parabolous -C'hi

09-05-2005, 07:20 AM	#38 (permalink)
basmoq It's a girly girl! Location: OH, USA	I can only wait for our downfall, can't stand how cocky this stinkin country is, we need a good slap in the face! I think the president could use to go live in a third world country as a peasant for a while, see what real life is like for real people. __________________ "There's someone out there for everyone - even if you need a pickaxe, a compass, and night goggles to find them."