School ok's cursing at teachers - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Jackebear · 08-30-2005, 11:09 PM

I thought at first it was going to be a school in the U.S. but it's not. It's a school in the U.K.

They are going to allow 5 f-words/lesson...not per day but per lesson. Jeezus. I am a teacher now and there is nothing worse than some 12 year old telling you to f-off and having to drag this sorry kid out of the class to try to discipline him or her ...but to have all the kids doing this in every friggin' class. It would drive me nuts.

This cannot be a good thing. I am already a baby-sitter, surrogate father, and a buddy to the kids along with being a teacher. I wonder if the teachers have to go through some sort of training to be able to put up with this. I know I couldn't AND I shouldn't put up with it.

Here is the link.

MSNBC article - School Ok's cursing

Your thoughts.

mystmarimatt · 08-31-2005, 12:15 AM

My mother is a third-and-fourth grade teacher, and she has the mouth of the sailor. That doesn't mean she uses it in front of her students. I cuss a lot, my brother cusses a lot, as does my father.

But that doesn't make it acceptable in an academic setting. I had a teacher in high school, my favorite teacher, who always demanded a 'vocab restate' if we cussed in class. I always sort of enjoyed it. On the other hand, my high school theatre teacher always "forgot to hear it" if we accidentally cussed during rehearsal. The first time I said "Fuck" in a college course, though, I jumped, before realizing that nobody cared. But I haven't done it since.

I guess my feeling on this isn't that it's "rude," or "unacceptable," or "Inappropriate," but rather, I realized after that first slip, that cussing in an academic atmosphere doesn't exactly do anything to raise the level of the discourse.

I don't want to participate in any class where "This book was a fucking piece of shit, because it was bad" is somehow considered a valid argument or viewpoint in literature, or in any subject, really. There are more intelligent, articulate ways to express your opinion. Besides, you can be just as mean, if you want to, using different language. That's the beauty of language, there are crueler things to say about something than "it's a piece of shit."

Pip · 08-31-2005, 01:37 AM

I have a potty mouth too, but I know where and when not to swear. School is not only about learning maths and english, it's also about learning to behave like a responsible adult. They are not doing the children any favours by this f-quota, it just teaches them that if they behave badly their surroundings will adjust to accomodate them, when it should be the other way around. Zero tolerance is the only way to go. A rude word shouldn't be allowed just because it was said early in class, that's just silly. It's a rude word, it shouldn't be said in class at all.

At the end of the article I also saw this:

Quote:

The newspaper also reported that the 1,130-pupil school plans to send “praise postcards” to the parents of children who do not swear and who turn up on time for lessons.

I've seen similar things in schools here, they reward children for performing the incredible stunts of Being On Time! and Having All Their Books And Pencils With Them!
Part of me is bitter because I was always on time and had all my stuff with me but I never got movie tickets or fun outings. Part of me thinks being on time has a value of its own that gets lost when there's an actual reward for it. I feel like an old fart ranting about kids of today...

maleficent · 08-31-2005, 03:35 AM

so they get praised for doing what they are supposed to do, and it's ok to cuss at their dispeasure? Good lord, I hope I'm dead by the time this group of people hits the workforce - this will be the most pampered overindulged group of people ever...

shesus · 08-31-2005, 04:52 AM

I think that this is a bad move. I am a teacher and outside of the school I have my potty mouth, but when I am at work I am professional and model appropriate communication with my students. School is where children are supposed to be educated and I think many people have loss sight of this fact. With the praise for actions that should be common sense, such as bringing supplies and being on time, we are condoning a "what do I get for this action" generation. In my experiences, I have noticed that many students will refuse to do something unless a prize is going to be given. Internal motivation is dwindling and so is the education of our youth. Children are going to cuss, but the school is not the place to use this language. When people use cuss words in a professional environment, they have the tendency to lose credibility. Why should the schools promote an action that is going to harm them in the "real" world?

Siege · 08-31-2005, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ohh_shesus

I think that this is a bad move. I am a teacher and outside of the school I have my potty mouth, but when I am at work I am professional and model appropriate communication with my students. School is where children are supposed to be educated and I think many people have loss sight of this fact. With the praise for actions that should be common sense, such as bringing supplies and being on time, we are condoning a "what do I get for this action" generation. In my experiences, I have noticed that many students will refuse to do something unless a prize is going to be given. Internal motivation is dwindling and so is the education of our youth. Children are going to cuss, but the school is not the place to use this language. When people use cuss words in a professional environment, they have the tendency to lose credibility. Why should the schools promote an action that is going to harm them in the "real" world?

Agree with this totally. I do swear. But when i'm coaching my kids, I don't swear. I think the worst thing I said ever was "what the hell is so-and-so doing?"

Well, arguably, the whole current school system gets rid of internal motivation. I put in X amount of work to get Y grade. A lot of kids, after they get out of school, will NEVER pick up a non fiction book for the sake or learning. Most people only pick up non fiction books for research.

Charlatan · 08-31-2005, 08:41 AM

In moderate defence of this...

It sounds like the new rules are for a very specific group of troublesome students and not a general rule. Clearly there is more to this story than meets the eye.

I agree that on the surface this doesn't look like it's a very good idea at all. I think Mal has it on the nose... overindulgence is not the way to prepare anyone for the real world.

Getting rewards for being on time and having all the right books? Bloody hell. These are the minimum requirements. Show up and be prepared for class. I'm all for positive reinforcements but not so much for things like this... At home, I have started giving my kid an allowance. This allowance is in no way tied to his chores (clearing the dishes, walking the dog, etc.). His chores are just what he does as part of the family that lives in our house. Why would I pay him for that?

08-31-2005, 09:00 AM

First of all, it's taken from an article by the Daily Mail - that should set off alarm bells from the get go. Then, if you actually read the story, it's only talking about two classes of particularly difficult or unruly teenagers in Weavers School in Wellingborough.

The school could expell them if it wants to - leaving the children with no education at all - after all the children there are only at school because the law tells them they have to be. Given the choice, they'd be doing their own thing elsewhere. How does a teacher instill any respect in someone who has no interest, and knows that they are going to be legally out of school in 6-9 months? At least this school policy is an attempt to teach these kids something before they are loosed into the world.

Bill O'Rights · 08-31-2005, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

At home, I have started giving my kid an allowance. This allowance is in no way tied to his chores (clearing the dishes, walking the dog, etc.). His chores are just what he does as part of the family that lives in our house. Why would I pay him for that?

When I pointed this exact thing out to my daughter, she brought up the 13th Amendment; "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
Whereby, I pointed out that even though the law also said that I had to feed her, it said nothing of having to keep a box of "Nutty Bars" in the cabinet.

Jinn · 08-31-2005, 09:31 AM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Bill... that's awesome.

Stompy · 09-01-2005, 01:33 PM

Swearing swearing swearing... ahhhh.

They are just words. The only reason they are "bad' is because you have been told they are bad.

I've always been amazed at how someone can get in trouble for saying something like, "That fucking homework was hard!"

I mean really, what's so bad about that?

maleficent · 09-01-2005, 01:43 PM

Swearing AT teachers is quite different than an offhand comment about homework being fucking hard... In the real world, most bosses wouldnt take too kindly to being cussed at.

Swear words in the work place make a person look common, like they don't have a more extensive vocabulary, yes, OH SHIT that hurts when a book falls on your foot is quite better than OH dead that smarts.... but swearing just for the same of swearing (and this is coming from someone who's trying to curb their potty mouth) is bad, and children should be taught that it's not ok to use it in the real world.

Agent_Orange · 09-02-2005, 09:31 PM

Swearing may just only be words but having a 12 year old tell me to F-OFF, I would crack the lil punk in the jaw. Kids still need to learn that if you disrespect someone it can often times end up hurting physically. Who cares whos kids they are, it's just plain disrespectful, especially to a teacher. You never disrepect a teacher.....It angers me just thinking about it.

Hanabal · 09-03-2005, 04:31 AM

although I agree that kids swearing doesnt sound nice, its only that way because society made it that way. There is nothing inherently wrong with the words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Swear words in the work place make a person look common

Thats the idea exactly, when the normans (I think) invaded england, they replaced the existing language with their own. Any person who spoke the old language was punished and eventually only the poor pesants spoke like that, while the lords spoke the new language. The words meant the same and there was no difference really, its just that the ruling class forbid the use of them.

This was passsed down and now it feels natural to say that these words are bad.

raeanna74 · 09-03-2005, 06:21 AM

I would not tolerate swearing in my class. I have not. I do not tolerate ANYone, even my grown brother swearing in my home. Though when it comes to adults I will quietly say "Do you mind using a different word please." and usually I will only say something if they swear more than one time.

If a school I was employed at allowed the students to show disrespect to a teacher in such a way, I would not work there. I could understand it slipping out when they stub their toe on a desk leg. If they ever swore when speaking to me I would not allow it. If the school insisted I allow it I would not teach.

The idea that some students just can't help it would not fly for me. I realize habits are hard to break but it isn't impossible. What you expect of your students is usually what they will strive for. I would expect the best from each one, including a proper use of vocabulary.

Bill O'Rights · 09-03-2005, 07:59 AM

And you know what, raeanna? I wouldn't expect any less from any teacher.
Respect in the classroom is somewhat of a rarity, from what I've seen of late. And this "policy" isn't helping. But, I'm from the "old" school, where respect was *ahem*encouraged...by the "board" of education.

maleficent · 09-03-2005, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

I'm from the "old" school, where respect was *ahem*encouraged...by the "board" of education.

Or Sister Ann and her Ruler

stevie667 · 09-03-2005, 09:29 AM

I have no problem with cursing in a college/sixth form enviroment occasionally, afterall your nearly adults, so the odd slip here and there isn't really too much of a biggy, just don't go overboard.

Cursing in younger years? What the hell are these people thinking? If some little kid starts swearing, he should be taken out the class, given a good talking to and sent to the head. That kind of behaviour is not acceptable in young kids, and letting them get away with it isn't acceptable either.

Yes, this is a more liberal society than ever, but we have to have the younger members of it grow up with manners so liberalism doesn't descend into common anarchy. If grow up thinking swearing is ok (which at the end of the day, in most societies, it isn't, just tolerated), then what else are they going to think they can get away with?

Blackthorn · 09-03-2005, 10:08 AM

Bollocks!! Where's that bar of soap???

The_wall · 09-03-2005, 10:20 AM

fuck it I say let the little shits cuss.

raeanna74 · 09-03-2005, 12:10 PM

For those of you who believe this isn't a big deal...

Have you taught a class full of preteens or teens?

My first day of school was always soooo draining. It was emotionally draining. It was almost as if I was directing energy subconsiously toward class control. Even on the good days you are completely involved on keeping the class moving along all in the same direction and encouraging each child to learn. To throw a method of disrespect into the mix is to disregard what teachers devote to their job. I cannot imagine any teacher finding this acceptable unless they've already given up control of the class to the students. Those students will learn so much less.

mrklixx · 09-04-2005, 10:29 AM

A friend of mine posted this brilliant piece at another forum about this subject, so I thought I would share.

Quote:

Class, I would like to introduce today's speaker who will explain the school district's new freedom of fucking speech policy. Dr. P. Hucker, would you please come up and address this fucking issue?

Thank you, Headmaster Large. Hello students. From here on out, I'm your fucking ombudsmen for your freedom of fucking speech rights.

The first thing you must remember is that there will be only five fucks allowed in a classroom at one time. If there are more than 5 fucks , they will have to wait until the next class. If 6 fucks emerge in one class, the teacher is entitled to send the last fuck to my fucking office. There will be fucking penalties, fucking detention and maybe even fucking expulsion for repeat fucking offenders. Don't let me catch you abusing your fucking freedom of speech.

The next thing you 'fuckers' should remember is to keep your fucking expressions friendly. Nothing is worse than hearing a bunch of angry fucks when you are trying to study American history. You might as well go home and watch Fox News instead of going to school So be considerate of your fellow fuckers and keep it light.

In fairness to your teacher and the mother who is the teacher's aide, try to address your fucking utterances primarily to your fellow students. We could lose our mother volunteers unless they are mother fuckers themselves. If so, it is still undecided if a mother is an acceptable exceeding of the five fucks allowed. We will have to see how many mother fuckers participate.

We are planning to send a few 'praise postcards' to the fucking abstainers. We are planning on having a fucking contest for the fucking graphic design. Headmaster Large has proposed the simple block letters, NO FUCKING WAY, but we members of the fucking task force think we can do better.

Lastly, appreciate this fucking time in your education. All too soon, you will be out in the fucking world where you will encounter an infinite number of fucks everywhere you go. And you will know that your board of fucking education gave you your fucking start in this world.

If I can be of any fucking assistance to any of you, please contact me, Dr. V. Bee and I will give you as much fucking advice as I can. Okay, I have clearly exceeded today's limit, so get the "fuck" out of here!

Also I think I came up with an example of one of the "praise postcards":

AquaFox · 09-06-2005, 07:45 PM

thats some "f-ing" nonsense... i don't think they should allow that

smooth · 09-06-2005, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackthorn

Bollocks!! Where's that bar of soap???

hahaha, exactly
This is in England people, the kids aren't going to calling the teachers fuckers!
aw bloody hell, what's he point

08-30-2005, 11:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jackebear Insane	School ok's cursing at teachers I thought at first it was going to be a school in the U.S. but it's not. It's a school in the U.K. They are going to allow 5 f-words/lesson...not per day but per lesson. Jeezus. I am a teacher now and there is nothing worse than some 12 year old telling you to f-off and having to drag this sorry kid out of the class to try to discipline him or her ...but to have all the kids doing this in every friggin' class. It would drive me nuts. This cannot be a good thing. I am already a baby-sitter, surrogate father, and a buddy to the kids along with being a teacher. I wonder if the teachers have to go through some sort of training to be able to put up with this. I know I couldn't AND I shouldn't put up with it. Here is the link. MSNBC article - School Ok's cursing Your thoughts. __________________ Life's jounney is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn-out shouting, "Holy sh*t! What a ride!" - unknown

08-31-2005, 12:15 AM	#2 (permalink)
mystmarimatt Omnipotent Ruler Of The Tiny Universe In My Mind Location: Oreegawn	My mother is a third-and-fourth grade teacher, and she has the mouth of the sailor. That doesn't mean she uses it in front of her students. I cuss a lot, my brother cusses a lot, as does my father. But that doesn't make it acceptable in an academic setting. I had a teacher in high school, my favorite teacher, who always demanded a 'vocab restate' if we cussed in class. I always sort of enjoyed it. On the other hand, my high school theatre teacher always "forgot to hear it" if we accidentally cussed during rehearsal. The first time I said "Fuck" in a college course, though, I jumped, before realizing that nobody cared. But I haven't done it since. I guess my feeling on this isn't that it's "rude," or "unacceptable," or "Inappropriate," but rather, I realized after that first slip, that cussing in an academic atmosphere doesn't exactly do anything to raise the level of the discourse. I don't want to participate in any class where "This book was a fucking piece of shit, because it was bad" is somehow considered a valid argument or viewpoint in literature, or in any subject, really. There are more intelligent, articulate ways to express your opinion. Besides, you can be just as mean, if you want to, using different language. That's the beauty of language, there are crueler things to say about something than "it's a piece of shit." __________________ Words of Wisdom: If you could really get to know someone and know that they weren't lying to you, then you would know the world was real. Because you could agree on things, you could compare notes. That must be why people get married or make Art. So they'll be able to really know something and not go insane. Last edited by mystmarimatt; 08-31-2005 at 12:17 AM..

08-31-2005, 03:35 AM	#4 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	so they get praised for doing what they are supposed to do, and it's ok to cuss at their dispeasure? Good lord, I hope I'm dead by the time this group of people hits the workforce - this will be the most pampered overindulged group of people ever... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

08-31-2005, 04:52 AM	#5 (permalink)
shesus Fancy Location: Chicago	I think that this is a bad move. I am a teacher and outside of the school I have my potty mouth, but when I am at work I am professional and model appropriate communication with my students. School is where children are supposed to be educated and I think many people have loss sight of this fact. With the praise for actions that should be common sense, such as bringing supplies and being on time, we are condoning a "what do I get for this action" generation. In my experiences, I have noticed that many students will refuse to do something unless a prize is going to be given. Internal motivation is dwindling and so is the education of our youth. Children are going to cuss, but the school is not the place to use this language. When people use cuss words in a professional environment, they have the tendency to lose credibility. Why should the schools promote an action that is going to harm them in the "real" world? __________________ Whatever did happen to your soul? I heard you sold it Choose Heaven for the weather and Hell for the company

08-31-2005, 08:41 AM	#7 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	In moderate defence of this... It sounds like the new rules are for a very specific group of troublesome students and not a general rule. Clearly there is more to this story than meets the eye. I agree that on the surface this doesn't look like it's a very good idea at all. I think Mal has it on the nose... overindulgence is not the way to prepare anyone for the real world. Getting rewards for being on time and having all the right books? Bloody hell. These are the minimum requirements. Show up and be prepared for class. I'm all for positive reinforcements but not so much for things like this... At home, I have started giving my kid an allowance. This allowance is in no way tied to his chores (clearing the dishes, walking the dog, etc.). His chores are just what he does as part of the family that lives in our house. Why would I pay him for that? __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

08-31-2005, 09:00 AM	#8 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	First of all, it's taken from an article by the Daily Mail - that should set off alarm bells from the get go. Then, if you actually read the story, it's only talking about two classes of particularly difficult or unruly teenagers in Weavers School in Wellingborough. The school could expell them if it wants to - leaving the children with no education at all - after all the children there are only at school because the law tells them they have to be. Given the choice, they'd be doing their own thing elsewhere. How does a teacher instill any respect in someone who has no interest, and knows that they are going to be legally out of school in 6-9 months? At least this school policy is an attempt to teach these kids something before they are loosed into the world.

08-31-2005, 09:31 AM	#10 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Bill... that's awesome. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

09-01-2005, 01:33 PM	#11 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Swearing swearing swearing... ahhhh. They are just words. The only reason they are "bad' is because you have been told they are bad. I've always been amazed at how someone can get in trouble for saying something like, "That fucking homework was hard!" I mean really, what's so bad about that? __________________ I love lamp.

09-01-2005, 01:43 PM	#12 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Swearing AT teachers is quite different than an offhand comment about homework being fucking hard... In the real world, most bosses wouldnt take too kindly to being cussed at. Swear words in the work place make a person look common, like they don't have a more extensive vocabulary, yes, OH SHIT that hurts when a book falls on your foot is quite better than OH dead that smarts.... but swearing just for the same of swearing (and this is coming from someone who's trying to curb their potty mouth) is bad, and children should be taught that it's not ok to use it in the real world. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

09-02-2005, 09:31 PM	#13 (permalink)
Agent_Orange Upright	Swearing may just only be words but having a 12 year old tell me to F-OFF, I would crack the lil punk in the jaw. Kids still need to learn that if you disrespect someone it can often times end up hurting physically. Who cares whos kids they are, it's just plain disrespectful, especially to a teacher. You never disrepect a teacher.....It angers me just thinking about it.

09-03-2005, 06:21 AM	#15 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I would not tolerate swearing in my class. I have not. I do not tolerate ANYone, even my grown brother swearing in my home. Though when it comes to adults I will quietly say "Do you mind using a different word please." and usually I will only say something if they swear more than one time. If a school I was employed at allowed the students to show disrespect to a teacher in such a way, I would not work there. I could understand it slipping out when they stub their toe on a desk leg. If they ever swore when speaking to me I would not allow it. If the school insisted I allow it I would not teach. The idea that some students just can't help it would not fly for me. I realize habits are hard to break but it isn't impossible. What you expect of your students is usually what they will strive for. I would expect the best from each one, including a proper use of vocabulary. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

09-03-2005, 07:59 AM	#16 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	And you know what, raeanna? I wouldn't expect any less from any teacher. Respect in the classroom is somewhat of a rarity, from what I've seen of late. And this "policy" isn't helping. But, I'm from the "old" school, where respect was ahemencouraged...by the "board" of education. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

09-03-2005, 09:29 AM	#18 (permalink)
stevie667 Too Awesome for Aardvarks Location: Angloland	I have no problem with cursing in a college/sixth form enviroment occasionally, afterall your nearly adults, so the odd slip here and there isn't really too much of a biggy, just don't go overboard. Cursing in younger years? What the hell are these people thinking? If some little kid starts swearing, he should be taken out the class, given a good talking to and sent to the head. That kind of behaviour is not acceptable in young kids, and letting them get away with it isn't acceptable either. Yes, this is a more liberal society than ever, but we have to have the younger members of it grow up with manners so liberalism doesn't descend into common anarchy. If grow up thinking swearing is ok (which at the end of the day, in most societies, it isn't, just tolerated), then what else are they going to think they can get away with? __________________ Office hours have changed. Please call during office hours for more information.

09-03-2005, 10:08 AM	#19 (permalink)
Blackthorn Beware the Mad Irish Location: Wish I was on the N17...	Bollocks!! Where's that bar of soap??? __________________ What are you willing to give up in order to get what you want?

09-03-2005, 10:20 AM	#20 (permalink)
The_wall Psycho Location: Rhode Island biatches!	fuck it I say let the little shits cuss. __________________ "We do what we like and we like what we do!"~andrew Wk Procrastinate now, don't put off to the last minute.

09-03-2005, 12:10 PM	#21 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	For those of you who believe this isn't a big deal... Have you taught a class full of preteens or teens? My first day of school was always soooo draining. It was emotionally draining. It was almost as if I was directing energy subconsiously toward class control. Even on the good days you are completely involved on keeping the class moving along all in the same direction and encouraging each child to learn. To throw a method of disrespect into the mix is to disregard what teachers devote to their job. I cannot imagine any teacher finding this acceptable unless they've already given up control of the class to the students. Those students will learn so much less. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

09-06-2005, 07:45 PM	#23 (permalink)
AquaFox WaterDog	thats some "f-ing" nonsense... i don't think they should allow that __________________ ...AquaFox...