i dont want to be that jerk but.... - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

stevo · 08-31-2005, 07:20 AM

One more thing. The superdome was opened to the needy and immobile. They took 9,000 people, and could have taken 30,000. Therefore: THEY HAD A PLAN AND PLACE FOR THE POOR TO BE SAFE

Charlatan · 08-31-2005, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

maybe he doesn't own an ax. Did the shotgun save his life? ok, he made the right decision. I know in canada, lots of people have axes, they have fireplaces and need to split wood. he might not own an ax. I'm sure he didn't take the shotgun for the cool factor. He took it because it's a life saving tool.

Oh my God... would you just look at that mole hill over there? No, no... not that mountain you are staring at... the mole hill right next to it...

stevo · 08-31-2005, 07:30 AM

I get it. Its not that big of a deal. And maybe I came off a bit harsher than I meant to. I suppose I was still worked up over the previous posts. Sorry if I took it out on you.

Charlatan · 08-31-2005, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Giant Hamburger

It is in situations like these were you can learn a lot about your fellow man.
Who acts with intelligence and who with ignorance and foolishness.
Who shows themselves to be caring and who greedy and selfish.
It's also good for pointing out the jerks.

Listen to the Hamburger... he speaks the truth...

denim · 08-31-2005, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_wall

I'm with Shakran on this one, couldn't have worded it better myself. Let's remember these are humans we are talking about, who cares how much has to be spent to save lives.

Agreed. I've been known to stay in a hurricane zone after evacuation was recommended, myself. For all we know, some of the people who stayed did so because they doubted it'd be worse than Camille...

eotlemac · 08-31-2005, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

They didn't know that - remember, the flooding is somewhat of a surprise and only happened because the levees failed.

Acctually, I was told about the levee situation 1.5 days before shit went down, and i live in colorado....

and now for my meaningless opinion, i guess im one of the "childish" ranters, heres why:

1. New Orleans residents chose to live there, knowing the hurricane risk. Personally, I dont think it is wise to live somwhere prone to natural disasters. And i understand that somtimes "shit happens", however, upon choosing to live in a
disaster area, dont you think it is wise to prepare yourself for evacuation at a moments notice.... If you are incapable of leaving during an evacuation, you should have probably found time to move previous to the hurricane.
2.I'm not going to worry about other people who refuse to worry about themselves. Otherwise, ill get caught not looking out for myself and i try to avoid that sort of thing. It may be selfish, but it is the truth. Its fighting an uphill battle.
One side of me feels this way^^^^^^^......and i can understand where you are coming from, ppl who feel that way.....

BUT
Try to think of it this way:
the other side(the much more dominate side) feels bad for all the victims of the hurricane, because i do stupid things all the time for no real reason. And if if i, lets say, was streaking a football game, and upon jumping the fence ripped my dick off, i would want somone to help me!!!!!! even if i was being a complete idiot.....

Lasereth · 08-31-2005, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Two things to add to this thread:

First: George Bush appears to agree with you. Massive flooding in major US cities, people trapped and dying, and he's <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/capm10208301856">playing guitar with a country singer on a naval base</a>. Nice.

Oh, you mean after he requested to be flown to New Orleans to survey the damage on Air Force One and after he cut his vacation to fly back to DC to issue recovery efforts. Both of these had happened before you posted that.

-Lasereth

shakran · 08-31-2005, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eotlemac

Personally, I dont think it is wise to live somwhere prone to natural disasters.

Well, let's see. The midwest and upper midwest are prone to tornados, as is the south.

The west coast gets earthquakes.

Montana, Minnesota, and upper states on the east coast get killer blizzards.

The east coast and southern coasts get hurricanes.

Arizona and New Mexico get crushing droughts. So does Texas.

So far pretty much the only state that's habitable under your guidelines is Colorado (although you get droughts too, and if you live in the mountains you have to worry about rockslides). And now that all 260+ million people in the US have to move to Colorado in order to satisfy your safety requirements, Colorado's gonna turn into an overcrowded cesspool.

Next suggestion?

Quote:

And i understand that somtimes "shit happens", however, upon choosing to live in a
disaster area, dont you think it is wise to prepare yourself for evacuation at a moments notice.... If you are incapable of leaving during an evacuation, you should have probably found time to move previous to the hurricane.

Tell ya what. If you can pull this off I'll give you a new car. Once somewhere in the south is rebuilt, move down there. Get a job that pays you 11,000 a year. Throw out any savings you had before you got the new job, because if you wanna be accurate here you have to start with the same nothing those people started with. Get a family, kids, and all the expenses that come with it. Don't cheat on your taxes either. Now, with the vast sums of money you have left, I want you to buy a car, and a new house somewhere far inland where you won't get hit by this stuff. Don't forget that when you apply for a job in the city your new luxury cardboard box is located, you can't list any real job skills, because a lot of those guys don't have any. So if you can manage to move out of your abject poverty to a safe place without stealing anything to do it, I'm very impressed.

Quote:

BUT
Try to think of it this way:
the other side(the much more dominate side) feels bad for all the victims of the hurricane, because i do stupid things all the time for no real reason. And if if i, lets say, was streaking a football game, and upon jumping the fence ripped my dick off, i would want somone to help me!!!!!! even if i was being a complete idiot.....

So. . .which side of the fence are you really on here?

Psycho Dad · 08-31-2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

So far pretty much the only state that's habitable under your guidelines is Colorado

No good.
Wild fires could pose a problem. Let's all leave. Last one out, turn off the lights.

Grasshopper Green · 08-31-2005, 04:35 PM

Shakran beat me to it, but every state in the US is prone to some sort of natural disaster. As far as people living in hurricane prone areas...do you eat seafood? Use oil? Ever taken a cruise? Ever enjoyed a hotel near the beach? Used a seaweed based product? (types of gelatin, toothpaste, and fertilizer are among its many uses) The people working in these industries live on the coast...they don't commute hundreds of miles to work.

shakran · 08-31-2005, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Dad

No good.
Wild fires could pose a problem. Let's all leave. Last one out, turn off the lights.

*grin* Good point!

Moobie · 08-31-2005, 04:46 PM

Stevo. A tip of the hat to you friend. This needs to be said again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

Hate to burst your bubble here, but 70% of NO's population is african american, so yes, the majority of the poor are black.

And I, for one, am disgusted at the level of inconsiderate, childish ranting on this board about how it is people's own falut.

People did evacuate to high-rise hotels, they still died.

There was only a 18-36hr evacuation notice. I was in the area last weekend before the storm hit. The highways were parking lots when I was trying to get home. Some people decided to stay that could have left, but many people couldn't evacuate, had no means to evacuate, or had special needs that prevented them from evacuating.

Some folks were miles inland (read: above sea level), yet the water still killed them. A 30ft storm surge will cover miles of land.

And yes, we do owe it to those people stuck in their attics and on their roofs to save them. They are humans, like you, like me.

Is this what it is about to you? money? you make me sick to my stomach.

The dead have not even begun to be counted and the toll is at 100. Don't be suprised if it passes 1,000.

This storm touched many more than you will know. Left thousands familyless and more than a million homeless. You have no consideration what so ever.

This is a disaster of proportions this country has never experienced. We should be coming together with our prayers and thoughts and doing whatever we can to help those poor, unfortunate souls. and all you can think about is how they deserve to die.

excuse me while I throw up.

pattycakes · 08-31-2005, 05:37 PM

I think the problem for me with this is i think for myself......

not how society would want me to think.

aberkok · 08-31-2005, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattycakes

I think the problem for me with this is i think for myself......

not how society would want me to think.

So this sounds like you're saying that those who sympathize with those left behind don't think for themselves? Just clarifying.

Marvelous Marv · 08-31-2005, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Two things to add to this thread:

First: George Bush appears to agree with you. Massive flooding in major US cities, people trapped and dying, and he's <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/capm10208301856">playing guitar with a country singer on a naval base</a>. Nice.

Actually, he was honoring veterans on V-J day. Do you think he should have been out in a helicopter, hauling people from roofs?

At least he wasn't ignoring a major event due to being in the middle of a blow job, like his predecessor.

shakran · 08-31-2005, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

Actually, he was honoring veterans on V-J day. Do you think he should have been out in a helicopter, hauling people from roofs?

At least he wasn't ignoring a major event due to being in the middle of a blow job, like his predecessor.

I assume you're talking about the 93 WTC bombing? Clinton ignored that because he hoped the terrorists would go away. Not because of a blowjob. To suggest such implies either a vacuous misunderstanding of recent history or a petty attack that could be valid if it weren't cheapened by idiotic low blows.

And this honoring veterans crap - sorry, that was a feel-good "let's try to get his pathetic numbers up" move, and it was not appropriate considering the number of his citizens who were dead and dying in the wake of the hurricane.

AVoiceOfReason · 08-31-2005, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Two things to add to this thread:

Or better said--"Nothing to add to this thread of value."

Quote:

First: George Bush appears to agree with you. Massive flooding in major US cities, people trapped and dying, and he's <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050830/480/capm10208301856">playing guitar with a country singer on a naval base</a>. Nice.

You don't want a president doing anything on the scene at times like these--the local manpower detailed to protect him is better used doing something useful. I thought that about Clinton when he'd go on the scene of a disaster, and I thought the same thing about Bush at the scene of the WTC in 2001--those working on the security detail would be better used elsewhere.

Quote:

Second: This was posted on boingboing.net this morning, from an email attributed to a NOLA rescue worker:

<blockquote>The poorest 20% (you can argue with the number -- 10%? 18%? no one knows) of the city was left behind to drown. This was the plan. Forget the sanctimonious bullshit about the bullheaded people who wouldn't leave. The evacuation plan was strictly laissez-faire. It depended on privately owned vehicles, and on having ready cash to fund an evacuation. The planners knew full well that the poor, who in new orleans are overwhelmingly black, wouldn't be able to get out. The resources -- meaning, the political will -- weren't there to get them out.

White per capita income in Orleans parish, 2000 census: $31,971. Black per capita: $11,332. Median *household* income in B.W. Cooper (Calliope) Housing Projects, 2000: $13,263. </blockquote>

And since it was the BLACK mayor that delayed in calling for a mandatory evacuation--Saturday's call was for voluntary, it wasn't until Sunday that it became mandatory--the note you chose to share with us must put him and his administration in the conspiracy.

0 for 2 on this one.

pattycakes · 08-31-2005, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aberkok

So this sounds like you're saying that those who sympathize with those left behind don't think for themselves? Just clarifying.

NO what i am saying is that almost everything we know as a whole is fed to us through some sort of media. we got \ get all our facts from the internet and the news and the put a spin on it good or bad and usually people agree with what they say, or they just get scared into believeing.

as much as i want to say 911, i wont thats a whole different thread, but i will make the point of this.

there are two pictures one of some black people looting, and one of some white people "fighting to survive or something" both from different sources but still, they are both looting taking food or clothes is looting no matter how you look at it

AND you are damn right i dont sympathize for those left behind.
1. people left lost there houses - i sympathize
2. people left didnt lose their houses lost crap because of looting - i sympathize
3. people who went to the last resort places i believe there were ten, and died - i sympathize
4.people who chose to stay behind because they did it before, because they didnt think they would drown - i dont sympathize
5. people who are looting - dont sympathize
6. PEOPLE STUCK IN HOSPITALS - I sympathize

If you look at my list i am not an irational jerk. i believe there are some things that can be done better, and some things that were done the right way.

shakran · 08-31-2005, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattycakes

AND you are damn right i dont sympathize for those left behind.
1. people left lost there houses - i sympathize
2. people left didnt lose their houses lost crap because of looting - i sympathize
3. people who went to the last resort places i believe there were ten, and died - i sympathize
4.people who chose to stay behind because they did it before, because they didnt think they would drown - i dont sympathize
5. people who are looting - dont sympathize
6. PEOPLE STUCK IN HOSPITALS - I sympathize

If you look at my list i am not an irational jerk.

I humbly disagree. Even if you think the people who chose to stay behind were stupid (and some of them were - most of them were not, because they had no choice) that does not mean they should not have your sympathy. They have still lost everything they ever owned, many have lost loved ones, and most will be ruined and homeless, possibly for the rest of their lives.

And by saying that you have no sympathy for them because you think what they did was stupid implies that you feel intellectually superior to them. In other words, you seem to think you have never done anything stupid. Since pretty much no one can claim that, I humbly suggest that you rethink your attitude. Even if you do something stupid, that doesn't mean I won't feel bad for you when you get hurt by it. Your lack of ability to feel compassion for those whom you deem to be not up to your standards is somewhat disturbing.

anti fishstick · 08-31-2005, 10:54 PM

The original post is pretty inconsiderate.

Keep in mind that there was also a lack of funding (resources $$) for hurricane and flood-control in the New Orleans area despite 2004 being the worst hurricane season in decades. The federal govt. actually decided to cut spending with the steepest reduction in NO history.. More money is going to Iraq. Smart. :T

You can read more about funding issues here: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ea..._id=1001051313

pattycakes · 09-01-2005, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

I humbly disagree. Even if you think the people who chose to stay behind were stupid (and some of them were - most of them were not, because they had no choice) that does not mean they should not have your sympathy. They have still lost everything they ever owned, many have lost loved ones, and most will be ruined and homeless, possibly for the rest of their lives.

And by saying that you have no sympathy for them because you think what they did was stupid implies that you feel intellectually superior to them. In other words, you seem to think you have never done anything stupid. Since pretty much no one can claim that, I humbly suggest that you rethink your attitude. Even if you do something stupid, that doesn't mean I won't feel bad for you when you get hurt by it. Your lack of ability to feel compassion for those whom you deem to be not up to your standards is somewhat disturbing.

You are forgetting one thing noone had to stay in their houses there were shelters set up for them to go to where they would have a better chance of survival than if they stayed at home.

I in NO WAY none what so ever feel intellectually superior. if i was to do something stupid i would have to pay the concequences.

ie. stay in attic drown... learned my lesson wont be doing that again

I dont feel compassion for people because of their, ( you would say poor judgement) stupidity to stay behind. If i was there as a rescuer you bet i would rescue everyone, but would i agree with the reasons. NO

I feel sorry for the familes of the idiots who stayed behind ( And no one had to stay in their homes) that is the biggest bunch of bullshit and im so sick and tired of that being everyones point. There were busses taking people to the superdome and 9 other shelters of last chance. ( the superdome is the only one i could find named on the list)

Derwood · 09-01-2005, 06:45 AM

The city of New Orleans really dropped the ball here. They had NO emergency plan. Yesterday I was in a hospital waiting room all day (waiting for my sister to give birth) and watched CNN for 10 hours. Shepard Smith was reporting from the main highway that comes into New Orleans, where thousands of people were leaving the city. Every single one was black, and no one had been told what do do or where to go. Funny how all the white people were evacuated and the black people were left to fend for themselves....

pattycakes · 09-01-2005, 06:48 AM

its funny how the mayor is black and still everyone thinks that thre black people were left to fend for themselves

edit* as if this was all planned to kill all of the black people in new orleans
hell if they are going to do that whjy not giveallt he black people in the usa a free trip there so they can all die?

haha now i believe in no way were the black people left to die, nor do i believe that they wernt told so they would die. no do i believe in racism so only thing we can believe is WHAT THE MEDIA TELLS US.

Bill O'Rights · 09-01-2005, 08:18 AM

***CAUTION***

The tension in this thread is beginning to take on a life of it's own. Let's take a moment, take a few deep breaths, sip a cup of herbal tea...whatever it takes. Let's keep the discusion civil. OK? OK.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

maleficent · 09-01-2005, 11:38 AM

I just got an email from a very good friend of mine who lives in Louisiana - thankfully about 5 hours north of NO, and was spared completely. She had kin who has not been so lucky. She had an Aunt, Uncle, and cousin who lived in Gulfport, Miss - and no matter how much the family begged and pleaded with them to go to a shelter -they opted not to go - because "it just won't be that bad". Her other uncle in that area, opted to go to a shelter.

No one had heard from the aunt uncle or cousin for a few days -- the uncle who went to the shelter left the shelter today and went by the other relatives house today - there was no house -- blown clean away to the foundation... Her uncle's body was found in a tree - the aunt and cousin are still missing but not much hope is held out for them to still be alive... There are apparantly 300 or more bodies that have washed up on the beaches there...

I am heartsick for my friend, that she has not only lost her relatives, but that she did everything in her power to get them to leave... It also makes be incredibly angry that because of the obstinance of these people, that they are now dead, and are causing my friend, who is the kindest person in the world, pain she shouldn't have to experience. Had they left and gone with the other uncle - they'd still have a pretty good chance at being alive...

Derwood · 09-01-2005, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattycakes

its funny how the mayor is black and still everyone thinks that thre black people were left to fend for themselves

edit* as if this was all planned to kill all of the black people in new orleans
hell if they are going to do that whjy not giveallt he black people in the usa a free trip there so they can all die?

haha now i believe in no way were the black people left to die, nor do i believe that they wernt told so they would die. no do i believe in racism so only thing we can believe is WHAT THE MEDIA TELLS US.

It's amazing that you can turn my statement that that a parade of 1000's of black people leaving New Orleans on the highway is in some way a racist plot of kill all the minorities in the city. I don't think it is a conspiracy, but when I see and hear person after person after person say that it's utter chaos, no one knows what to do or where to go, and no relief is making its way to those people, what am I supposed to think?

eotlemac · 09-01-2005, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

So. . .which side of the fence are you really on here?

both...im world wide.....no wait.... im just wide

but on the real tip:
i was just saying i understand both points of view, like i said, im all for helpin' peeps.

pattycakes · 09-05-2005, 12:28 PM

to clear thiings up i feel sorry for everyone who was \is at superdome \ convention center. they need help they stared to get it and need to get more. I still stand behind my rescue point and fell need not to discuss it anymore.

now the one that really bothers me more than anythying are the people who now are refusing to be rescued from their attics. the rescuer goes down and then comes back up empty handed because the people wont leave. What a waste.....

then in another 2 weeks we will have to go back because they will want to be rescued

shakran · 09-05-2005, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattycakes

now the one that really bothers me more than anythying are the people who now are refusing to be rescued from their attics. the rescuer goes down and then comes back up empty handed because the people wont leave. What a waste.....

I've had just about enough of this. Your lack of sensitivity (and the lack of sensitivity displayed by others who are hopping on your bandwagon) is appalling.

You guys don't seem to understand the situation these people are in. They started out before the hurricane with next to nothing. The poverty in New Orleans is unlike almost anywhere else in this country. The crappiest ghetto in Chicago or Milwaukee has people who are financially much better off than many of the people living in NO. These are people who struggle to have enough money to put even a little food on the table. That tiny little rundown house is all they have and now they're losing that too. These people are now doomed to spend the rest of their lives homeless because they couldn't afford insurance on their house and even if they could, it didn't cover flooding. They cannot afford to buy a new house. They cannot afford even the cheapest rent on an apartment. And now someone's asking them to leave the only thing they still possess. That's NOT an easy thing to do. Many would rather die, or at least think right now that they'd rather die, than leave that house.

The fact that you're posting on the internet indicates that you're economically infinitely better off than these people, which means you cannot possibly understand their situation. You cannot understand poverty at that level unless you live it, or at the very least live among it so that you are exposed to what they go through.

I can understand being frustrated that someone does not want to leave their house to get to whatever refugee camp has been set up for him, but I cannot condemn them for thinking the way they do.

pattycakes · 09-05-2005, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

The fact that you're posting on the internet indicates that you're economically infinitely better off than these people, which means you cannot possibly understand their situation. You cannot understand poverty at that level unless you live it, or at the very least live among it so that you are exposed to what they go through.

I can understand being frustrated that someone does not want to leave their house to get to whatever refugee camp has been set up for him, but I cannot condemn them for thinking the way they do.

To quote you "You cannot understand the poverty at that level" ARE you there? if not then you cant understand it.

I Dont condem the people for not leaving. i am simply saying what a waste when they decide they want to leave... we have to go back to get them.

I understand the people who went to the superdome got help... but it took how many days to long? ?(WAYYYY TO LONG)

These people will be relocated either temporary or perm. Where is everyones donatons going, if they wont go twards housing / houses for these people?

Side note walmart donated 25million ( and atleast 1 store that was looted( and cops looted it too yay!))

shakran · 09-05-2005, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattycakes

To quote you "You cannot understand the poverty at that level" ARE you there? if not then you cant understand it.

Nope, I'm not, and no I can't understand what it's like to live in that level of poverty. But then I'm not mouthing off on the internet advocating that we let these people die either.

Quote:

I Dont condem the people for not leaving. i am simply saying what a waste when they decide they want to leave... we have to go back to get them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pattycakes earlier

I think that every one stuck in their attics deserve to be left there so they learn a lesson, that when told to evacuate they should.

Sounds pretty condemning to me.

Quote:

These people will be relocated either temporary or perm. Where is everyones donatons going, if they wont go twards housing / houses for these people?

Yeah. If after cleanup, paying off all the contractors who have to rebuild levees, streets, sewers, water pipes, the electrical grid, and the public buildings, if there's enough money left to buy a house for everyone who's homeless I'll personally apologize to you. But that's simply not gonna happen.

Quote:

Side note walmart donated 25million ( and atleast 1 store that was looted( and cops looted it too yay!))

This job is going to take tens of BILLIONS of dollars to complete. Walmart's contribution is generous by any measurement, but it's not gonna put a dent in the bill.

Look, people are still rebuilding after hurricanes which hit Florida last year and in years before that.

In tornado areas there are tons of stories about people who got hit by a tornado a decade ago and they still haven't gotten back to where they were before it hit. And that's from one tornado that cut a destruction path MAYBE a mile wide and 20 miles or so long, IF it was a really nasty one. This is a destruction area that spans for hundreds of miles. There simply isn't enough money to restore everyone to the way they were before it hit.

martinguerre · 09-06-2005, 04:58 PM

when people stay in their homes, and luck is on their side...we congratulate them like no other.

i was in minnesota at the time of the red river valley floods...if any of you recall, it's when fargo looked like NOLA does now, just colder and slightly more on fire. the folks who stayed were portrayed by the national media as fighters, survivors, the ones who really put their all in to saving their homes. with a 40 flood crest, and a whole lot of flat land...this of course wasn't terribly bright. bu it's a bunch of midwesterners...a stubborn lot that was more inclined to do everything they could to save their towns and way of life than retreat to saftey. maybe they took some uncessary risks, but i have to admire them for giving their all.

shakran has dealt quite nicely with the class issues involved in a privately funded/organized everyperson for themselves evacuation, (and current coverage seems to suggest that this is one area where the local gov bears some responsbility), but i think it's good to add that the difference between a glorified survivor and a flood victim is a bit of luck, not necessarily any difference in judgement.

pattycakes · 09-07-2005, 04:16 AM

Forced evacuations ordered...YaY!

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/07/kat...act/index.html

Quote:

NEW ORLEANS, Louisiana (CNN) -- New Orleans' mayor has ordered law enforcement agencies to remove everyone from the city who is not involved in cleaning up after Hurricane Katrina, whether they want to go or not. Mayor Ray Nagin instructed all public safety officers "to compel the evacuation of all persons ... regardless of whether such persons are on private property or do not desire to leave," according to a written statement from his office. The order did not apply to people in Algiers on the West Bank side of Orleans Parish. Many residents have refused to leave New Orleans despite a mandatory evacuation and warnings from government officials that staying in the flooded city represents a health risk. Meanwhile, a majority of Americans believe the city of New Orleans will never completely recover from the disaster, according to results of a CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll released Tuesday. Fifty-six percent of 609 adults polled by telephone Sept. 5-6 said they believe the hurricane devastated the city beyond repair. (Full story) In Washington, White House and congressional sources said Tuesday that the Bush administration plans to ask Congress for $30 billion to $50 billion to aid in the next phase of the recovery effort. (Watch a report on the storm's political fallout -- 2:09) The request, which would add to the $10.5 billion already approved, will be made as early as Wednesday, they said. House hearings examining the government's response to Katrina were canceled by Republican leaders who instead want a still unspecified "congressional review" by a joint House and Senate panel, Majority Leader Tom DeLay, a Texas Republican, said late Tuesday. (Full story) That development followed a busy day in the capital, with lawmakers from both parties criticizing the governmental response and vowing to investigate. Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee Chairwoman Susan Collins, a Maine Republican, told reporters that "governments at all levels failed." President Bush met with his Cabinet to discuss the relief efforts, saying he would be leading an inquiry and would be sending Vice President Dick Cheney to the region. (Full story) Gen. Richard Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told reporters that the military had 58,000 troops in the region by Tuesday, including 41,000 from the National Guard and 17,000 active-duty personnel. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said the deployment would not hamper the military's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan. "We have the forces, the capabilities and the intention to fully prosecute the global war on terror while responding to this unprecedented humanitarian crisis here at home," he told reporters. Holding out Rescue workers say many holdouts have insisted on staying in their homes or makeshift residences rather than obey the mandatory evacuation order Nagin first put into effect on August 28, the day before Katrina crashed ashore. (See video on people living in a school and on a city bus -- 2:41) Some said they were concerned about their property being looted, while others were unaware of disaster's full extent, worried about their pets or concerned that conditions would be even worse in shelters. The standing water in New Orleans is contaminated with E. coli bacteria, a highly placed official in the New Orleans mayor's office told CNN on Tuesday. U.S. Surgeon General Richard Carmona said conditions in the city are "really unsafe at this point." (Full story) The city's deputy police chief, Warren Riley, said Monday the holdouts numbered in the thousands. Nagin told reporters Tuesday he wanted everyone out of the city "because it's a health risk." "These citizens will have to be removed for their own good," Police Superintendent Eddie Compass told CNN. The mayor also fiercely denied rumors that he had ordered relief workers to stop delivering water to those who refused to evacuate. The toxic nature of the water is evident from the smell of garbage, human waste and rotting corpses, and the slick sheen of oil, gasoline and other chemicals on the surface. "I understand wanting to stay in their homes, not wanting to give up on New Orleans," Nagin said. "But we have a very volatile situation. There's lots of oil on the water, gas leaks where it's bubbling up, and there's fire on top." Nagin said he wanted to reassure the holdouts that it was "OK" to evacuate. "Leave for a little while. Let us get you to a better place, and let us clean it up," he said. Nagin said most of the survivors that rescuers are finding now are elderly and in desperate need of emergency medical care.

denim · 09-07-2005, 09:49 AM

Note that the forced evacuations will not include the military. The general involved has said that his people will distribute food and water. I forget if they're also helping people who want to get out.

What gets me is that I'd be very likely to be the guy in the tree that Mal describes. I've been through a number of hurricanes. By the time they get to Massachusetts, they're not force 4/5, more like topping out as force 3 or less. So I'd likely have made the same mistake as many of those people, figuring it's just more of the same and that the government was being silly. And maybe add a little paranoia to that, too. "All I have is this house! Why they tryin' ta get me to leave it?? Are they gonna plant bugs in my bathroom??"

Elphaba · 09-07-2005, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

I just got an email from a very good friend of mine who lives in Louisiana - thankfully about 5 hours north of NO, and was spared completely. She had kin who has not been so lucky. She had an Aunt, Uncle, and cousin who lived in Gulfport, Miss - and no matter how much the family begged and pleaded with them to go to a shelter -they opted not to go - because "it just won't be that bad". Her other uncle in that area, opted to go to a shelter.

No one had heard from the aunt uncle or cousin for a few days -- the uncle who went to the shelter left the shelter today and went by the other relatives house today - there was no house -- blown clean away to the foundation... Her uncle's body was found in a tree - the aunt and cousin are still missing but not much hope is held out for them to still be alive... There are apparantly 300 or more bodies that have washed up on the beaches there...

I am heartsick for my friend, that she has not only lost her relatives, but that she did everything in her power to get them to leave... It also makes be incredibly angry that because of the obstinance of these people, that they are now dead, and are causing my friend, who is the kindest person in the world, pain she shouldn't have to experience. Had they left and gone with the other uncle - they'd still have a pretty good chance at being alive...

Mal and I have good news to share about our mutual friend's missing family members. They are alive!

Quote:

What a torturous week, but Thank God, my aunt and cousin have been found and are now safe! I just wanted to tell ya' what happened to them... Their story is so unbelievable...

Their house began filling with water and was waist deep in a short while after the storm started coming ashore. (They lived in a small town on the outskirts of Waveland, MS called Lakeshore, which happened to be the exact spot the eye seemed to be headed for). They still thought that this was as bad as it was going to get until a few minutes later it started coming in much faster... so they put my uncle on the couch, (he was in a wheelchair) because the couch was floating... and after a few minutes of hoping it was going to stop, they saw that it wasn't as it got inches away from the ceiling, and decided they had to get outside of the house.

They swam to the front door, but it wouldn't open I guess it was jammed because the water caused it to swell... so they then swam to the back door... my aunt told my uncle that he would have to go under water for a second, just to get past the doorway, and this is when he passed away... when he came up out of the water he was gone. (probably from a heart attack because it was much too quick to be drowning)

So, they tried to hold onto his body in all the water and the wind, to no avail... he floated off and got hung up in a tree. The house begins to rip apart, and a large piece of the house rushed towards my cousing, pinning her between it and a tree... she was pretty bruised up, but thankfully, fought for her life and managed to break free... and then swimming to try to climb onto the roof of the house where her mom had gotten to try to rescue her. They stayed on top of this roof being tossed about on the water for the rest of the worst part of the storm which lasted about 4 hours... and when the winds started dying down and they could tell the water was receding somewhat, they decided they had to climb down and try to walk into town where they might could find some help.

So they waded for about 3 miles through waist deep water... chest deep in some places... my aunt almost lost her toe, but they made it, and by some miracle, they encountered one of my uncle's grown children from the wife he had before he married my aunt... she was with her husband and 3 kids who had been in an apartment but had to evacuate the flooding and spent the storm on a big sign... almost like a billboard... for those 4 hours.. anyway... they all then were able to walk to a shelter where they spent the first night.

The next day, they found another sister whose house miraculously was still in almost perfect condition. It had been in a neighborhood on higher ground, so they had some minor wind damage and none of the water damage. That is where they have been all week, with no electricity, no phones, and no water... they had no water for 3 days but said that the salvation army started delivering water and mre's on the 4th day. They had been like this all week..

The sister (Jane) had a cell phone that worked in some places and they called my mom's cell phone. We didn't realize it was them because the service was so bad, and we couldn't hear what they were saying, and didn't recognize the phone number. So, I sent a text message for them to try to call back if they had any information on my aunt and cousin, not knowing who this was that had called, and left my sisters telephone number with them. They finally got through late Saturday night, and we got to talk to them! So, my sisters and I drove, terrified after hearing horrid stories about the bodies being everywhere and people robbing other people for supplies, especially gas, with a van full of supplies and gas that we tried to hide with blankets and stuff, to go and get my cousin. My aunt refused to leave because she wants to make sure my uncle's body is taken care of etc. but my cousin is now here, at my house, safe and sound, except for some swelling, a few minor bruises, and the horrible emotional stuff I'm sure she'll have to deal with for years.

We are just so blessed to have them alive. We found out about my uncle relatively early in the week, and after not hearing from them, we just knew they didn't make it... and had already begun to accept that they didn't.

I will miss my uncle, he was a good man, in all senses of the word. He was so generous... literally one of those people who would give you the shirt off of his back... so we will miss him for a long time, but the alternative is really so unthinkable... there's no other way to put it.. my family is very lucky today.

It seems that the uncle was quite ill and maybe that is why he refused to leave. I'm simply thankful that his wife and child survived.

08-31-2005, 07:20 AM	#41 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	One more thing. The superdome was opened to the needy and immobile. They took 9,000 people, and could have taken 30,000. Therefore: THEY HAD A PLAN AND PLACE FOR THE POOR TO BE SAFE __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

08-31-2005, 07:30 AM	#43 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	I get it. Its not that big of a deal. And maybe I came off a bit harsher than I meant to. I suppose I was still worked up over the previous posts. Sorry if I took it out on you. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

08-31-2005, 04:35 PM	#50 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	Shakran beat me to it, but every state in the US is prone to some sort of natural disaster. As far as people living in hurricane prone areas...do you eat seafood? Use oil? Ever taken a cruise? Ever enjoyed a hotel near the beach? Used a seaweed based product? (types of gelatin, toothpaste, and fertilizer are among its many uses) The people working in these industries live on the coast...they don't commute hundreds of miles to work. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

08-31-2005, 10:54 PM	#60 (permalink)
anti fishstick Post-modernism meets Individualism AKA the Clash Location: oregon	The original post is pretty inconsiderate. Keep in mind that there was also a lack of funding (resources $$) for hurricane and flood-control in the New Orleans area despite 2004 being the worst hurricane season in decades. The federal govt. actually decided to cut spending with the steepest reduction in NO history.. More money is going to Iraq. Smart. :T You can read more about funding issues here: http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ea..._id=1001051313 __________________ And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. ~Anais Nin

09-01-2005, 06:45 AM	#62 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	The city of New Orleans really dropped the ball here. They had NO emergency plan. Yesterday I was in a hospital waiting room all day (waiting for my sister to give birth) and watched CNN for 10 hours. Shepard Smith was reporting from the main highway that comes into New Orleans, where thousands of people were leaving the city. Every single one was black, and no one had been told what do do or where to go. Funny how all the white people were evacuated and the black people were left to fend for themselves.... __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

09-01-2005, 08:18 AM	#64 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	*CAUTION* The tension in this thread is beginning to take on a life of it's own. Let's take a moment, take a few deep breaths, sip a cup of herbal tea...whatever it takes. Let's keep the discusion civil. OK? OK. I now return you to your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

09-01-2005, 11:38 AM	#65 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	I just got an email from a very good friend of mine who lives in Louisiana - thankfully about 5 hours north of NO, and was spared completely. She had kin who has not been so lucky. She had an Aunt, Uncle, and cousin who lived in Gulfport, Miss - and no matter how much the family begged and pleaded with them to go to a shelter -they opted not to go - because "it just won't be that bad". Her other uncle in that area, opted to go to a shelter. No one had heard from the aunt uncle or cousin for a few days -- the uncle who went to the shelter left the shelter today and went by the other relatives house today - there was no house -- blown clean away to the foundation... Her uncle's body was found in a tree - the aunt and cousin are still missing but not much hope is held out for them to still be alive... There are apparantly 300 or more bodies that have washed up on the beaches there... I am heartsick for my friend, that she has not only lost her relatives, but that she did everything in her power to get them to leave... It also makes be incredibly angry that because of the obstinance of these people, that they are now dead, and are causing my friend, who is the kindest person in the world, pain she shouldn't have to experience. Had they left and gone with the other uncle - they'd still have a pretty good chance at being alive... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

09-06-2005, 04:58 PM	#72 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	when people stay in their homes, and luck is on their side...we congratulate them like no other. i was in minnesota at the time of the red river valley floods...if any of you recall, it's when fargo looked like NOLA does now, just colder and slightly more on fire. the folks who stayed were portrayed by the national media as fighters, survivors, the ones who really put their all in to saving their homes. with a 40 flood crest, and a whole lot of flat land...this of course wasn't terribly bright. bu it's a bunch of midwesterners...a stubborn lot that was more inclined to do everything they could to save their towns and way of life than retreat to saftey. maybe they took some uncessary risks, but i have to admire them for giving their all. shakran has dealt quite nicely with the class issues involved in a privately funded/organized everyperson for themselves evacuation, (and current coverage seems to suggest that this is one area where the local gov bears some responsbility), but i think it's good to add that the difference between a glorified survivor and a flood victim is a bit of luck, not necessarily any difference in judgement. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

09-07-2005, 09:49 AM	#74 (permalink)
denim Banned Location: Massachusetts, USA	Note that the forced evacuations will not include the military. The general involved has said that his people will distribute food and water. I forget if they're also helping people who want to get out. What gets me is that I'd be very likely to be the guy in the tree that Mal describes. I've been through a number of hurricanes. By the time they get to Massachusetts, they're not force 4/5, more like topping out as force 3 or less. So I'd likely have made the same mistake as many of those people, figuring it's just more of the same and that the government was being silly. And maybe add a little paranoia to that, too. "All I have is this house! Why they tryin' ta get me to leave it?? Are they gonna plant bugs in my bathroom??"