Consequences of publishing art w/o artist's permission? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

clavus · 05-23-2005, 06:41 PM

I regularly submit cartoons to a newspaper. The newspaper publishes (most of) them, and pays me as na independent contractor. But today, they ignored my submission, snagged one off my website and printed it without my permission. As if to piss me off even further, they did not include my copyright information. (I own the copyright).

Tomorrow, I'm going to attempt to have a conversation with my editor about this. My question is this - what are the potential consequences for a newspaper that prints a cartoon without the artist's permission? I would like him to know the potential ramifications of his actions.

I am eighteen different kinds of pissed off. I have some cartoons that I don't want the paper to publish. Some I am trying to get published elsewhere. Some I want to redo before they get published. BAH!

ngdawg · 05-23-2005, 06:46 PM

They had NO right to take anything you have, online or otherwise without express written permission.
I had this exact same argument with a magazine publisher who took it upon herself to take photos off my site and use them, including ones of my children, who are under 18.
In this case, she made an wrong assumption that my article submission had included the photos-it did not.
Give'em hell, Clavus! Your work is your own unless you GIVE it, for any type of purpose, payment or gift. It is NOT theirs to take.

amonkie · 05-23-2005, 09:57 PM

While I don't have much off the top of my head knowledge, this book sounds helpful:

LLOYD J. JASSIN: Copyright Permission and Libel Handbook: A Step- by-Step Guide for Writers, Editors and Publishers (John Wiley & Sons, Inc.)

Seeker · 05-23-2005, 10:18 PM

Not even knowing much about the whole situation, I can still see the many.. um.. common sense issues this raises here.

Good luck to you clavus.. I hope it doesn't get messy or has any detrimental outcomes for you.

Anexkahn · 05-24-2005, 01:41 AM

Have you signed any contracts with them? read those over. Its a possiblity that they may have more rights to your work than you intended if you just signed a contract with them without checking it out thoroughly. They could be buying your idea and not just each cartoon. If this is the case, then they could have some right to your other work if it was done as part of the "idea" you sold them when you signed on.

Before you go in guns blazing all pissed off demanding a retraction, you should evaluate your relationship with them. It is likely that you will compromise any sort of future business relationship with them if you handle this in an irate tone. If that isn't important to you, then, by all means tell them how you feel -- but if its more important to continue to be published by them it may be in your best intrest to suck up a bit of pride on this one and use some tact in your dealings.

clavus · 05-24-2005, 08:16 AM

I'm an independent contractor, not an employee. I know where I stand as far as rights and ownership. What I'm really curious about is what are the potential consequeces for a newspaper if it runs work without the artist's permission. I mean what if they just ran a Doonsbury cartoon without getting his syndicate's OK? Beyond being obligated to pay the standard charge for runign the strip, would they pay a small fee? A big fee? Run an apology? Would they be liable for some sort of damages?

I want to have a private conversation with my editior. I want him to understand what he may open himself up to if he does this type of thing. I don't want to get him in trouble or make a big stink. I'd like to keep it between the two of us. I'm pretty sure that if the EIC found out, my editor would be booted. If my editor gets fired, I may get tossed with him. I'm angry, not stupid.

ironman · 05-24-2005, 08:50 AM

You should sue their asses off and ask for indemnity, you are entitled to do so.

TM875 · 05-24-2005, 09:18 AM

Speaking from second-hand knowledge (my mother was a copyright and patent attorney):

If they truly ran said cartoon without your permission, and there's nothing hidden in any type of agreement between you and the newspaper in question (I trust your assumption, but you still might be wise to check around), then the paper is, in short, boned.

Copyright infringement is a big, big deal. A small fee? Oh my no, Clavus, you can sue them for thousands, easily. If you truly are an independent contractor (and, in which case, are no more personally affiliated with the paper than, say, I am), you can tear them a new one. If you get a really good lawyer, you might be able to own that paper by this time next yeat

(just kidding, but you can get a large amount in personal damages if you really want to take them to the cleaners).

Copyright and patent laws are some of the oldest and most strict in our nation. There's plenty of cases in courts already. Basically, the newspaper made a big, big mistake and will have to pay in some form or another.

clavus · 05-24-2005, 09:37 AM

Thank you TM875. While I have no intention of suing anybody, it's nice to know that for once I am in a strong position.

Halx · 05-24-2005, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TM875

then the paper is, in short, boned.

Now that's what I'm talking about. I've had some legal issues of my own where I've been screwed over by some company and there has been nothing I could do about it. Hearing those words, even when they apply to a friend, is very satisfying.

merkerguitars · 05-24-2005, 09:57 AM

Personally, just write them a letter saying I'll take XXX amount of dollars and I won't press further charges. Unless you would want to squeeze about every possible cent from them.

Charlatan · 05-24-2005, 10:01 AM

Just because they are boned doesn't mean you need to bone them... I think Clavus is taking the right approach. Keep it between you and the editor but let him know what his mistake might have cost him and that he shouldn't do it again...

There is no need to burn bridges.

ShaniFaye · 05-24-2005, 10:08 AM

see, now Clavus is my kind of guy...kudos to your class Clavus...people are to "sue happy"

clavus · 05-24-2005, 10:48 AM

It is done.

Actually, my editor's boss is the dipshit who pulled the stunt. He has been informed as to the magnitude of his error. I'm not exactly sure how one gets to be Editor in Chief while lacking copyright knowledge, but today he had a "learning experience."

snowy · 05-24-2005, 10:50 AM

I hope, clavus, that you feel satisfied with the outcome. That's what's important here.

I'm glad you were rational about this--I commend you for it.

Redlemon · 05-24-2005, 11:15 AM

I'm glad to hear that it wasn't your main contact at the paper who screwed up, so you should be able to keep a good working relationship with him.

Manuel Hong · 05-24-2005, 11:49 AM

I suppose that your boundaries are firmly set now. I'm glad that you stood up for yourself and "a lesson was learned."
I hope you were compensated.

BigBen · 05-24-2005, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clavus

It is done.

Actually, my editor's boss is the dipshit who pulled the stunt. He has been informed as to the magnitude of his error. I'm not exactly sure how one gets to be Editor in Chief while lacking copyright knowledge, but today he had a "learning experience."

Wow! What paper is this?

There is no way an EIC should have let this happen (or done it themselves..).

Power is a wonderful thing. Having power over powerful people is so rare as to be cherished for eternity. I believe you have a story to tell your grandchildren.

P.S.: Can you give a link to your cartoons? I would love to read them.

You 'da MAN now, dog!

clavus · 05-24-2005, 02:51 PM

*clavus PM's BigBen a link*

Mephisto2 · 05-24-2005, 09:01 PM

I'm on your side, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face...

I would have gently explained to them the error of their ways, requested payment for the cartoon at normal rates and told them you wouldn't be so understanding next time they stole your work.

Of course, this itself may piss them off so much as to make them no longer buy your stuff, so it's entirely up to you.

I would be interested in hearing what actually happened, but I can respect you wanting to keep this discreet.

Mr Mephisto

clavus · 05-24-2005, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Now that's what I'm talking about. I've had some legal issues of my own where I've been screwed over by some company and there has been nothing I could do about it. Hearing those words, even when they apply to a friend, is very satisfying.

And it's very satisfying to be called "friend" by Halx.

Wow. Satisfaction all around.

slant eyes · 05-24-2005, 09:55 PM

clavus...now if i could be so priviliged as to receive a pm with the link to your cartoons as well, that would be great. thank you

glad things turned out for the good.

BigBen · 05-26-2005, 06:40 AM

Those cartoons are funny. I mean off the hook.

I have a new found appreciation for your avatar. Hahahahaha!

Fantastic.

TopRamen66 · 05-26-2005, 04:19 PM

Well, glad things worked out for you. You could have gotten more out of it, but its probably better to keep a working relationship out of the deal. Relevant story- My photo teacher was lounging around flipping channels one night, and stopped on the Jay Leno show. He was talking about pictures, and was waving one of my teachers' pictures around. He got 100k out of their mistake.

TM875 · 05-26-2005, 06:13 PM

Good job all around. Clavus, glad that you took the high approach and didn't just try to ring money out of them. It's good that they realized their mistake and hopefully you can continue to do business with them in the future. Who knows, maybe we'll see you in a weekly syndicated column one day

By the way, can I have a link to your cartoons, too?

Redlemon · 05-27-2005, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TM875

By the way, can I have a link to your cartoons, too?

Here's a hint from your friendly obsessive librarian (and Clavus stalker): have you checked Clavus' profile?

05-23-2005, 06:41 PM	#1 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	Consequences of publishing art w/o artist's permission? I regularly submit cartoons to a newspaper. The newspaper publishes (most of) them, and pays me as na independent contractor. But today, they ignored my submission, snagged one off my website and printed it without my permission. As if to piss me off even further, they did not include my copyright information. (I own the copyright). Tomorrow, I'm going to attempt to have a conversation with my editor about this. My question is this - what are the potential consequences for a newspaper that prints a cartoon without the artist's permission? I would like him to know the potential ramifications of his actions. I am eighteen different kinds of pissed off. I have some cartoons that I don't want the paper to publish. Some I am trying to get published elsewhere. Some I want to redo before they get published. BAH! __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

05-23-2005, 06:46 PM	#2 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	They had NO right to take anything you have, online or otherwise without express written permission. I had this exact same argument with a magazine publisher who took it upon herself to take photos off my site and use them, including ones of my children, who are under 18. In this case, she made an wrong assumption that my article submission had included the photos-it did not. Give'em hell, Clavus! Your work is your own unless you GIVE it, for any type of purpose, payment or gift. It is NOT theirs to take. __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

05-23-2005, 09:57 PM	#3 (permalink)
amonkie Drifting Administrator Location: Windy City	While I don't have much off the top of my head knowledge, this book sounds helpful: LLOYD J. JASSIN: Copyright Permission and Libel Handbook: A Step- by-Step Guide for Writers, Editors and Publishers (John Wiley & Sons, Inc.) __________________ Calling from deep in the heart, from where the eyes can't see and the ears can't hear, from where the mountain trails end and only love can go... ~~~ Three Rivers Hare Krishna

05-23-2005, 10:18 PM	#4 (permalink)
Seeker Getting Clearer Location: with spirit	Not even knowing much about the whole situation, I can still see the many.. um.. common sense issues this raises here. Good luck to you clavus.. I hope it doesn't get messy or has any detrimental outcomes for you. __________________ *To those who wander but who are not lost...* ~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

05-24-2005, 08:16 AM	#6 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	I'm an independent contractor, not an employee. I know where I stand as far as rights and ownership. What I'm really curious about is what are the potential consequeces for a newspaper if it runs work without the artist's permission. I mean what if they just ran a Doonsbury cartoon without getting his syndicate's OK? Beyond being obligated to pay the standard charge for runign the strip, would they pay a small fee? A big fee? Run an apology? Would they be liable for some sort of damages? I want to have a private conversation with my editior. I want him to understand what he may open himself up to if he does this type of thing. I don't want to get him in trouble or make a big stink. I'd like to keep it between the two of us. I'm pretty sure that if the EIC found out, my editor would be booted. If my editor gets fired, I may get tossed with him. I'm angry, not stupid. __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

05-24-2005, 01:41 AM	#5 (permalink)
Anexkahn Crazy Location: whOregon	Have you signed any contracts with them? read those over. Its a possiblity that they may have more rights to your work than you intended if you just signed a contract with them without checking it out thoroughly. They could be buying your idea and not just each cartoon. If this is the case, then they could have some right to your other work if it was done as part of the "idea" you sold them when you signed on. Before you go in guns blazing all pissed off demanding a retraction, you should evaluate your relationship with them. It is likely that you will compromise any sort of future business relationship with them if you handle this in an irate tone. If that isn't important to you, then, by all means tell them how you feel -- but if its more important to continue to be published by them it may be in your best intrest to suck up a bit of pride on this one and use some tact in your dealings.

05-24-2005, 08:50 AM	#7 (permalink)
ironman Smithers, release the hounds Location: Guatemala, Guatemala	You should sue their asses off and ask for indemnity, you are entitled to do so. __________________ If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

05-24-2005, 09:18 AM	#8 (permalink)
TM875 Addict Location: Amish-land, PA	Speaking from second-hand knowledge (my mother was a copyright and patent attorney): If they truly ran said cartoon without your permission, and there's nothing hidden in any type of agreement between you and the newspaper in question (I trust your assumption, but you still might be wise to check around), then the paper is, in short, boned. Copyright infringement is a big, big deal. A small fee? Oh my no, Clavus, you can sue them for thousands, easily. If you truly are an independent contractor (and, in which case, are no more personally affiliated with the paper than, say, I am), you can tear them a new one. If you get a really good lawyer, you might be able to own that paper by this time next yeat (just kidding, but you can get a large amount in personal damages if you really want to take them to the cleaners). Copyright and patent laws are some of the oldest and most strict in our nation. There's plenty of cases in courts already. Basically, the newspaper made a big, big mistake and will have to pay in some form or another. __________________ "I've made only one mistake in my life. But I made it over and over and over. That was saying 'yes' when I meant 'no'. Forgive me."

05-24-2005, 09:37 AM	#9 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	Thank you TM875. While I have no intention of suing anybody, it's nice to know that for once I am in a strong position. __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

05-24-2005, 09:57 AM	#11 (permalink)
merkerguitars Buffering......... Location: Wisconsin...	Personally, just write them a letter saying I'll take XXX amount of dollars and I won't press further charges. Unless you would want to squeeze about every possible cent from them. __________________ Donate now! Ask me How! Please use the search function it is your friend. Look at my mustang please feel free to comment! http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=26985

05-24-2005, 10:01 AM	#12 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Just because they are boned doesn't mean you need to bone them... I think Clavus is taking the right approach. Keep it between you and the editor but let him know what his mistake might have cost him and that he shouldn't do it again... There is no need to burn bridges. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

05-24-2005, 10:08 AM	#13 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	see, now Clavus is my kind of guy...kudos to your class Clavus...people are to "sue happy" __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

05-24-2005, 10:48 AM	#14 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	It is done. Actually, my editor's boss is the dipshit who pulled the stunt. He has been informed as to the magnitude of his error. I'm not exactly sure how one gets to be Editor in Chief while lacking copyright knowledge, but today he had a "learning experience." __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

05-24-2005, 10:50 AM	#15 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	I hope, clavus, that you feel satisfied with the outcome. That's what's important here. I'm glad you were rational about this--I commend you for it. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

05-24-2005, 11:15 AM	#16 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	I'm glad to hear that it wasn't your main contact at the paper who screwed up, so you should be able to keep a good working relationship with him. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

05-24-2005, 11:49 AM	#17 (permalink)
Manuel Hong Addict Location: Land of the puny, wimpy states	I suppose that your boundaries are firmly set now. I'm glad that you stood up for yourself and "a lesson was learned." I hope you were compensated. __________________ Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

05-24-2005, 02:51 PM	#19 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	clavus PM's BigBen a link __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

05-24-2005, 09:01 PM	#20 (permalink)
Mephisto2 Junkie	I'm on your side, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face... I would have gently explained to them the error of their ways, requested payment for the cartoon at normal rates and told them you wouldn't be so understanding next time they stole your work. Of course, this itself may piss them off so much as to make them no longer buy your stuff, so it's entirely up to you. I would be interested in hearing what actually happened, but I can respect you wanting to keep this discreet. Mr Mephisto

05-24-2005, 09:55 PM	#22 (permalink)
slant eyes Psycho Location: cali	clavus...now if i could be so priviliged as to receive a pm with the link to your cartoons as well, that would be great. thank you glad things turned out for the good. __________________ no man or woman is worth your tears - and the one who is, won't make you cry question authority, don't ask why, just do it!

05-26-2005, 06:40 AM	#23 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	Those cartoons are funny. I mean off the hook. I have a new found appreciation for your avatar. Hahahahaha! Fantastic. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

05-26-2005, 04:19 PM	#24 (permalink)
TopRamen66 Insane	Well, glad things worked out for you. You could have gotten more out of it, but its probably better to keep a working relationship out of the deal. Relevant story- My photo teacher was lounging around flipping channels one night, and stopped on the Jay Leno show. He was talking about pictures, and was waving one of my teachers' pictures around. He got 100k out of their mistake.

05-26-2005, 06:13 PM	#25 (permalink)
TM875 Addict Location: Amish-land, PA	Good job all around. Clavus, glad that you took the high approach and didn't just try to ring money out of them. It's good that they realized their mistake and hopefully you can continue to do business with them in the future. Who knows, maybe we'll see you in a weekly syndicated column one day By the way, can I have a link to your cartoons, too? __________________ "I've made only one mistake in my life. But I made it over and over and over. That was saying 'yes' when I meant 'no'. Forgive me."