The Best Interest of the Child? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

maleficent · 04-28-2005, 04:54 AM

Girl, 13, fighting DCF bid to block abortion

The state and child advocates face off in court over the case of a 13-year-old foster child who wants to end her pregnancy.

BY CAROL MARBIN MILLER
The plight of a 13-year-old Palm Beach County foster child, who is pregnant and wants an abortion, is pitting children's advocates against Florida's child welfare agency, which has custody of the girl and has asked a judge to forbid her from ending her 13-week pregnancy.

The Department of Children & Families, which has been responsible for the girl for many years, argued to a West Palm Beach judge Tuesday that the girl is too immature to decide for herself whether to carry the pregnancy to term.

Attorneys for the girl, who is identified in court papers only as L.G., told Judge Ronald Alvarez that Florida courts have consistently held that, under the state's strongly worded privacy law, minors have a right to decide for themselves whether to continue or abort a pregnancy.

The controversy is likely to reopen fresh wounds. The March 31 death of Terri Schiavo, after a Pinellas County judge ordered the removal of her feeding tube, exposed deep fissures between state government and the courts over questions involving privacy and preservation-of-life issues. Some of the same passions that roiled in that case could be awakened.

On Tuesday, Alvarez signed an order temporarily halting the girl from terminating her pregnancy, an order that has been appealed by the girl's lawyers. The judge also has ordered a psychological evaluation to determine whether she is competent to decide for herself whether to end the pregnancy -- and what actions would be in her best interests.

A spokeswoman for DCF, which provoked a firestorm in 2003 when officials sought to prevent a severely disabled Orlando woman, J.D.S., from terminating her pregnancy, declined to discuss the case at length.

''The Department of Children & Families is acting in accordance with what we believe is in the best interest of the child,'' said Zoraya Suarez, a spokeswoman for Secretary Lucy Hadi. ``If a child in our care requires any procedure that is prohibited by Florida statute, we cannot consent to that procedure.''

Florida law says that ''in no case shall the department [DCF] consent to a sterilization, abortion or termination of life support'' on behalf of a client under department care.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Florida and the Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County, which are representing the girl, insist that the Florida law is trumped by a 1989 Florida Supreme Court decision, called the T.W. case. Citing privacy rights, the high court struck down a state law that required the consent of parents before a minor could obtain an abortion.

''DCF and the circuit court have instituted a process whereby the state will make a decision for L.G. based upon its own evaluation of her best interest,'' the girl's lawyers wrote. ``This it cannot do.''

L.G., whose parents were stripped of their rights to raise her, has been in foster care for several years. Though she is originally from Palm Beach County, sources say she was living in a group home in St. Petersburg when she became pregnant. She now lives in a licensed shelter home, records show.

About two weeks ago, L.G. learned she was pregnant following a medical examination, records show. ''Almost immediately after learning that she was pregnant, L.G. informed [her] DCF caseworker that she wished to terminate the pregnancy,'' according to pleadings filed by her attorneys.

The abortion was scheduled for Tuesday. But early Tuesday morning, DCF attorneys, in an emergency motion, asked Alvarez to block the abortion. He agreed, temporarily, and ordered the girl be examined for mental competency.

In court papers, L.G.'s lawyers say the girl, ''though a longtime ward of the state,'' was never determined to be incompetent, and was never placed in a mental institution for treatment -- an action that is not uncommon for longtime foster children.

Lynda Bell, a Homestead woman who heads Florida Right to Life, an antiabortion group, praised the judge's action, saying officials needed to study the case more closely before making any decisions. ''I'm very concerned with the rush to abort,'' Bell said.

''My concern number one is for this child,'' she added. ``This just breaks my heart.''

But Howard Simon, who heads the American Civil Liberties Union in Florida, a group that is partly representing L.G., called the state's action politically motivated. ''This is what you get when ideology drives child welfare decisions,'' Simon said.

''Putting aside the legal and the constitutional principles here, the fact that the state is preparing to force a 13-year-old to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term is just simply cruel,'' Simon added.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ah Florida...

I can't even imagine what this child is going thru, first to be pregnant at age 13 (Yes, it wasn't an immaculate conception, so she is responsible as well) but then to have the state block what you want to do? Wouldn't having this child, that age 13, she's unable to support, be much worse on her than having the abortion?

Should a 13 year old be able to make a decision as to what to do with her own body? This is a ward of the state, what if she were your 13 year old daughter who found out she was pregnant?

Bill O'Rights · 04-28-2005, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Lynda Bell, a Homestead woman who heads Florida Right to Life, an antiabortion group, praised the judge's action, saying officials needed to study the case more closely before making any decisions. ''I'm very concerned with the rush to abort,'' Bell said.

''My concern number one is for this child,'' she added. ``This just breaks my heart.''

Really? Then adopt it.

maleficent · 04-28-2005, 05:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Really? Then adopt it.

Who the child who is pregnant or the child that the child who is pregnant is having?

Not to slam Right to Lifers, because I'm sure the percentage that don't constantly seek out media attention are good, well meaning people. Women like that though, make me insane-r. It's all about protecting an unborn life, but whaaa happens when that life gets born, then they are off to the next media whore event...

Seeker · 04-28-2005, 05:13 AM

OMG, I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like if my daughter were pregnant! She is 12 now, so it's not a very big difference in my eyes. But, given that she were pregnant and wanted to abort - I wouldn't stop her. She is still a child in my eyes and I personally wonder about the issues of motherhood and what it would do to such a young child. Then again, if she knew enough to get herself pregnant, then she really wouldn't be the child that I see...

This of course is if I could get over the fact that she were out and sleeping around, then I'd have to look at the fact that I wouldn't be the mother I have been and the list goes on...

What a shame for this particular girl. I would like to know a bit about her reasons for wanting the abortion.

StanT · 04-28-2005, 05:13 AM

If this were a custody hearing, a judge would ask the girl where she wanted to live and why. A judge would make the legal decision, but the girl's opinion would carry a great deal of weight. This case should be handled the same way. I'm reluctant to give full legal rights to a 13 year old, I am also unwilling to ignore her.

Bill O'Rights · 04-28-2005, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Who the child who is pregnant or the child that the child who is pregnant is having?

Well, y'know what, mal? I had assumed that she was referring to the fetus, but you're absolutely right. It is a very ambiguous statement, isn't it? My, my. my. Well...what say she adopt both of them. I'm sure that will ease her aching social conscience.

Carno · 04-28-2005, 06:29 AM

So a girl who is too immature to make the decision about abortion is mature enough to care for a baby?

Gilda · 04-28-2005, 07:39 AM

Hmmm. I'm not seeing how forcing this child to continue an unwanted pregnancy, carry the fetus to term, and give birth to an unwanted child is in her best interests. Medically, giving birth to a full term baby is much more dangeraous than a first trimester abortion, In terms of what's best for her quality of life, if she's too immature to make this decision herself, how is having a child more in her best interests than not having it?

If she wanted to, by all means, that would be fine, but I can't conceive of any way in which this child's life will be improved by being forced to continue this pregancy.

liquidlight · 04-28-2005, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Florida law says that ''in no case shall the department [DCF] consent to a sterilization, abortion or termination of life support'' on behalf of a client under department care.

That right there tells me that this is only in the papers because somebody is attempting to put themselves in the spotlight. By Florida LAW DCF has to oppose the abortion, regardless of the circumstances. I'm not saying that it's necessarily a good law, but it is the law and it bothers me that there are people that feel that it shouldn't apply in particular cases just because they say so.

There are extenuating circumstances, but the Right to Life spokeswoman shouldn't have anything to do with this, and for the record I'm against abortion, but I don't think that it should be illegal either.

Gilda · 04-28-2005, 08:40 AM

I'm not a lawyer, so I have to ask, does lack of consent equal opposition? Does a law that requires DCF not to consent to something mean that they are required to oppose it? In terms of language by itself, they're two different things, but it may be that in legal terms they mean the same thing. Anyone know for sure?

maleficent · 04-28-2005, 08:40 AM

Now, according to a reference I found in Florida Law, Currently, you do not need parent permission to have an abortion. However, there is a law which requires girls younger than 18 to get permission from one parent to have an abortion. This law is not being enforced because of a court order.
http://www.coolnurse.com/abortion_laws.htm

While the law contradicts itself, since the law is not being enforced, the state really shouldn't have a lot to say about it.

liquidlight · 04-28-2005, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gilda

I'm not a lawyer, so I have to ask, does lack of consent equal opposition? Does a law that requires DCF not to consent to something mean that they are required to oppose it? In terms of language by itself, they're two different things, but it may be that in legal terms they mean the same thing. Anyone know for sure?

I don't know it either, but if I were the DCF lawyers that's the kind of interpretative gray area that I'd by covering my butt against.

Like Mal found, as her guardian technically they have to consent for her to have an abortion, but because of the injuction based on the privacy laws it's not required, which leaves us back where we started and I'm still of a mind that as that lawyer I'd be stopping her to keep it from coming back to bite me later on.

In a situation like this regardless of what they do SOMEBODY is going to be really upset.

la petite moi · 04-28-2005, 09:01 AM

This just reminded me: I read in the paper today that the House passed a bill stating that a minor cannot go out of state to get an abortion if there is not an adult consent for the abortion. Bush said this is to promote communication in families, but personally, if these girls are getting pregnant in the first place, I doubt they have a good family life.

OFKU0 · 04-28-2005, 09:18 AM

A little of a bit of a tangent but if this girl was raped or if she was somehow mentally incapacitated and pregnant, I wonder if we would have the opposite going on, that being people enforcing an abortion.

raveneye · 04-28-2005, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Florida law says that ''in no case shall the department [DCF] consent to a sterilization, abortion or termination of life support'' on behalf of a client under department care.

This is true, the DCF can't legally consent, but (1) a court order overrides any non-consent; and (2) the only reason the DCF needs to consent (in general to medical procedures) is because the parents are absent, and the DCF then needs to take the place of the parents. But abortion is a special case in Florida law in that consent of parents is no longer required.

So: even if we gave DCF the authority that parents are normally given (in terms of consent to medical procedures in general), consent for abortion is still not needed.

So the DCF opposition (if there is any) would seem to have no legal standing.

Here's the relevant state code:

Quote:

TITLE 5. JUDICIAL BRANCH (Chs. 25-44)
CHAPTER 39. PROCEEDINGS RELATING TO CHILDREN
PART V. TAKING CHILDREN INTO CUSTODY AND SHELTER HEARINGS

Fla. Stat. § 39.407 (2005)

§ 39.407. Medical, psychiatric, and psychological examination and treatment of child; physical or mental examination of parent or person requesting custody of child

(1) When any child is removed from the home and maintained in an out-of-home placement, the department is authorized to have a medical screening performed on the child without authorization from the court and without consent from a parent or legal custodian. Such medical screening shall be performed by a licensed health care professional and shall be to examine the child for injury, illness, and communicable diseases and to determine the need for immunization. The department shall by rule establish the invasiveness of the medical procedures authorized to be performed under this subsection. In no case does this subsection authorize the department to consent to medical treatment for such children.

(2) When the department has performed the medical screening authorized by subsection (1), or when it is otherwise determined by a licensed health care professional that a child who is in an out-of-home placement, but who has not been committed to the department, is in need of medical treatment, including the need for immunization, consent for medical treatment shall be obtained in the following manner:

(a) 1. Consent to medical treatment shall be obtained from a parent or legal custodian of the child; or

2. A court order for such treatment shall be obtained.

(b) If a parent or legal custodian of the child is unavailable and his or her whereabouts cannot be reasonably ascertained, and it is after normal working hours so that a court order cannot reasonably be obtained, an authorized agent of the department shall have the authority to consent to necessary medical treatment, including immunization, for the child. The authority of the department to consent to medical treatment in this circumstance shall be limited to the time reasonably necessary to obtain court authorization.

(c) If a parent or legal custodian of the child is available but refuses to consent to the necessary treatment, including immunization, a court order shall be required unless the situation meets the definition of an emergency in s. 743.064 or the treatment needed is related to suspected abuse, abandonment, or neglect of the child by a parent, caregiver, or legal custodian. In such case, the department shall have the authority to consent to necessary medical treatment. This authority is limited to the time reasonably necessary to obtain court authorization.

In no case shall the department consent to sterilization, abortion, or termination of life support.
. . . .

And a brief note on the case that made the parental notification law (which is still on the books BTW) unconstitutional (I'll dig up the full case if anyone wants to see it):

Quote:

15. Florida's abortion consent for minors law, former Fla. Stat. ch. 390.001(4)(a) (now Fla. Stat. ch. 390.0111) was unconstitutionally vague because it did not require a record hearing on the merits of the petition, did not authorize the court to take any and all evidence which may be useful to its determination, did not specify the subject matter to be covered by that evidence, and did not even require the personal appearance of the minor before the court; the judicial consent procedure failed to provide sufficient safeguards against the possibly arbitrary denial of a petition for waiver of consent and thus did not sufficiently safeguard the pregnant minor's constitutional right of privacy. In re T.W., 543 So. 2d 837, 1989 Fla. App. LEXIS 2811, 14 Fla. L. Weekly 1192 (Fla. Dist. Ct. App. 5th Dist. 1989).

Presumably the legislature could fairly easily correct these problems and thereby make the law constitutional. But until it does so, I don't see that the girl has any requirement of consent whatsoever from her parent or guardian, whoever they may be.

AngelicVampire · 04-28-2005, 10:34 AM

Rights of 13 year old trump rights of unborn child. Rights of father (not going there in this thread). Rights of Parents/State/Right to Lifers are ignorable.

I was 13 once, and very opinionated and knew what I wanted (my parents always taught me to think for myself), to be told No you cannot do something that may stop you screwing up your life I think is the Girl's decision.

Coppertop · 04-28-2005, 10:41 AM

Just imagine, if this girl does have the child she could be a grandmother by 30 if her child is similarly sexually inclined.

Journeyman · 04-28-2005, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFKU0

A little of a bit of a tangent but if this girl was raped or if she was somehow mentally incapacitated and pregnant, I wonder if we would have the opposite going on, that being people enforcing an abortion.

That's EXACTLY what I was thinking:

Quote:

The Department of Children & Families, which has been responsible for the girl for many years, argued to a West Palm Beach judge Tuesday that the girl is too immature to decide for herself whether to carry the pregnancy to term.

This argument is crap when you consider that A) The DCF, by previously discussed law, has only ONE choice that they can make for the girl and B) If they could make the other choice for the girl, they never could in the face of community, political and religious outrage. Should the fetus be sonogramed and identified as the antichrist there's no way the courts would let the DCF force an abortion on a thirteen year old girl.

Also:

Quote:

L.G., whose parents were stripped of their rights to raise her, has been in foster care for several years. Though she is originally from Palm Beach County, sources say she was living in a group home in St. Petersburg when she became pregnant.

Who better than her to decide that living under the state's care is not something she wants to put another child through?

raeanna74 · 04-28-2005, 11:28 AM

Normally I am a pro-lifer but not in this case.

It's obvious the girl made a poor choice. It's situations where the parent/parents are adults, neglect to use BC, get pregnant, and then find a baby would be inconvenient. Is this a co-ed foster home? What are they putting young teenage kids (and their newly found hormones) together for?

This girl probably does not have the physical development necessary to carry this fetus to full term. It is a big risk that she would miscarry anyway or even suffer complications that could put her in harms way. What is DCF gonna do if the girls dies or had serious trouble in childbirth? Are they gonna be there by her side? I would be surprised.

I can fully understand the girls fears. I hope they don't wait too long. The farther along the fetus gets the more risky the abortion would be.

Cuatela · 04-28-2005, 11:28 AM

Here's a question: If the girl was legally too young to even be sexually active (which she is as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong), then why not force her to at least have the child to show her that there are consequences for disobeying the law? If she doesn't want the child, they can always put him up for adoption.

Gilda · 04-28-2005, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coppertop

Just imagine, if this girl does have the child she could be a grandmother by 30 if her child is similarly sexually inclined.

We have pregnant teenage girls in our school (6-8th grades, 11-14 years old) every year, two or three eighth graders usually. It isn't at all unusual for their mothers to still be in their 20's. When one of them comes to me to tell me she's pregnant, or afraid she's pregnant (I get this a lot because I'm the female Family Planning teacher, and the girls often see me as a safe first person to tell), she's usually repeating the same mistake her mother made, and in many cases, she's gotten pregnant on purpose.

It's truly dismaying to be meeting with the mother of a pregnant 13 year old, or even worse, the mother of a 13-year-old who's disappointed that she isn't pregnant, and the mom is younger than I am. I'm 28, and I'm not even sure I'm ready for a child yet.

jorgelito · 04-28-2005, 11:49 AM

Wow, there is a convergence of so many issues. It's really "hot" too. Man, a child having a child... soundls like foster care screwed up.

Well, here's my attempt:

1. Can a minor (under 18) legally abort or make that decision even? 13 is really young: Is abortion even "safe" for the girl?

2. The pro-life in me is screaming right now but I'm not one of those "crazies" Mal refers to. But it is concerning when so many people don't address the life of the baby.

3. The practical (unemotional, "logical") thing to do would be to abort, paid for by the foster parents ASAP. Get the girl some counseling etc. maybe put her in a special school or something.

4. But to follow a principle (yes I know there are others), she carries the child to term and puts it up for adoption. That way, there is no killing of life (definitely my opinion here), she won't be "burdened" for the rest of her life because of a mistake she made.

Option 4 seems the most humane to me for all parties.

Personal Commentary:
Aside from Right to Life issues, abortion just seems too much like a disposable culture, to me. No pain no gain. Kind of like diet pills or other instant gratifiaction gimmicks pervasive in our culture. In my opinion, maybe people would respect life more and be more responsible if they actually understood their actions can have consequences.

In the above case, there are too many questions: where did the foster parents fail? Was there no sex ed at her school? There seems to be a cascading sequence of events and conditions that contribute to social decay. I believe the underlying root of the problems can be found there.

jorgelito · 04-28-2005, 11:52 AM

Wow, Gilda, that is a really interesting point that should be explored: Why is that young mothers follow in each others footsteps? What is contributing to the social decay?

JustJess · 04-28-2005, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor226

Here's a question: If the girl was legally too young to even be sexually active (which she is as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong), then why not force her to at least have the child to show her that there are consequences for disobeying the law? If she doesn't want the child, they can always put him up for adoption.

I don't see how this would solve anything. Yes, she's too young. Yes, she should have some consequences for her actions. But I'm pretty sure that going through the trauma of an abortion is punishment enough. Hopefully, the baby would be adopted. But there's just as much chance that it would be the ward of the state because she wasn't able to care for it, just like her parents couldn't care for her.
That doesn't help anyone, least of all the 13 year old girl. Pregnancy is dangerous for someone so young and undeveloped. Would it have been better had she never gotten pregnant? Of course, but that's not what we're talking about here. Whatever your personal beliefs, we have CHOICE as law - forcing any female, 13 or not, to either have an abortion or carry to term is completely the antithesis of that judgement.

ngdawg · 04-28-2005, 12:27 PM

I cannot believe that in this country they are trying to make this child go through a pregnancy!! Bastards.....Isn't it bad enough she made the mistake of having sex to begin with? Now she makes a choice and they halt it. I could scream....

guthmund · 04-28-2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor226

Here's a question: If the girl was legally too young to even be sexually active (which she is as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong), then why not force her to at least have the child to show her that there are consequences for disobeying the law? If she doesn't want the child, they can always put him up for adoption.

Yeah, subject the poor newborn to the possiblity of living their first 18 years as a ward of the state to prove a point. I am for personal responsibility, believe me, but punishing the kid for the ignorant actions of the mother...well, it's reminscent of the whole "sins of the father" notion, which I reject in its totality.

I believe if she's young enough to decide to have sex, she's old enough to get an abortion. If she becomes a problem later on (abortion as a form of birth control), then other avenues should be explored, but that doesn't seem to be the case right now.

I think the first one to open their mouths in regards to "saving," "protecting," or "nourishing" this "culture of life" crap I keep hearing about should be first in line to adopt this kid, otherwise they should sit down and shut up.

muttonglutton · 04-28-2005, 12:44 PM

Every day I grow to loathe them more, the media-whores of Florida.

Personally, I believe abortions are wrong, with certain exceptions. However, I also believe that everyone has the right to make their own decision. I may not agree, but it's not my world. I just live here, and everyone else only tries to do the same.

She may have made a mistake in having sex in the first place, but she made her decision to abort it. She won't be mature enough to take care of the baby if the adults around her don't treat her as if she is able. No, she may not fully understand the situation. But I'm sure she's a lot closer to understanding it than any of the Pro-Lifers fighting against her. It's happening in her world, she gets to make the choices. She put herself in an adult's position, and these people are trying to resolve it by telling her that she isn't an adult.

What atrocity.

tecoyah · 04-28-2005, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carn

So a girl who is too immature to make the decision about abortion is mature enough to care for a baby?

This says it all....if you actually think about it.

cellophanedeity · 04-28-2005, 01:49 PM

The antichoicers of Florida really shouldn't be able to tell this girl that she can't have an abortion, just because she's 13.

Here's the news: 13 year olds have sex. Not even just the ones that were raised "wrong" but lots of them. There's a thousand people and things we could place blame on, but it won't stop the fact.

And though they may not be the brightest people in the world, thirteen year old kids do understand some basic things. She may not understand all of the ramifications of having an abortion, but she seems to understand why she doesn't want to give birth.

Hell, having a kid at thirteen could mess up her poor little sexually active pelvis forever.

I think North America needs to start better defining our laws when it comes to children.

Gilda · 04-28-2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

Wow, Gilda, that is a really interesting point that should be explored: Why is that young mothers follow in each others footsteps? What is contributing to the social decay?

The mothers in these cases are nearly always single mothers, and are either on welfare or absent working. They typically have little to no parenting skills, don't know how to show affection effectively, and either don't know how or don't care to monitor their daughter's activities.

The fathers are typically older high school boys, and disappear or make little to no attempt to be a parent. These girls often get pregnant, and I heard this time and again, because they want someone to love and someone to love them, and believe in the myth of the mother instinct and the natural bond between mothers and children. They're, to a girl, determined not to do the same thing their mothers did, and they have to prove this by getting pregnant young (just as their mothers did) and raising their child differently from how their mothers did.

The other dismaying thing is the copycat pregnancies. This doesn't happen often at our school because our district has a special school for pregnant girls and their babies. But it does happen; a girl gets pregnant, she gets a lot of attention, she come to school with her baby after it's born and it's so cute and adorable, and suddenly, getting pregnant is "cool". It's seen as a positive thing. I don't have it online, but I remember one school that was holding baby showers in home ec classes for the girls who'd had babies, the teachers seemingly not recognizing that they're encouraging behavior that should be discouraged.

KinkyKiwi · 04-28-2005, 02:16 PM

this is just horrible...how can they force her to have a baby? and after she has it what will happen to it? i gotta say as an adopted child as much as i love my parents dearly and i know my birthmother knows she made the right choice its affected her strongly. of course after she has the child and sees it...how exactly do you think a 13 year old girl is going to NOT be trumatized by having to give her child away after all that labor pain and love that you develop while carrying it. and what do you wanna bet that after she sees it she will want to keep it? and then what kinda life will that child have...ugh...its not prolife its protorture on both kids!

OFKU0 · 04-28-2005, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KinkyKiwi

this is just horrible...how can they force her to have a baby?

I guess if she is being cared for by the state, they can tell her what to do. That doesn't mean that if she is ordered to follow her pregnancy through, she necessarily has too. If she decides not to, she could throw herself down a flight of stairs or cause trauma to the fetus somehow. Then what? Involuntary manslaughter? Murder? I don't really know.

Lead543 · 05-03-2005, 04:57 PM

I thought and thought and thought. But I can't seem to come up with any sort of "answer" to this. I am against abortion however, I'm also against young irresposible, immature girls going out and getting themselves pregnant. Whatever the case may be I hope this girl and her family gets some intense therapy, the problem is deeper then a 13 year old carrying a kid. So sad.

Baron Opal · 05-04-2005, 02:00 AM

What a mess.

An abortion is at best an unpleasant experience, at worst horrific. But it will be over relatively quickly. The pregnancy will take longer, and she will have to take good care of herself so that the baby will develop well. But, should she give the baby up for adoption, she can take some comfort that the child will have a better chance at a good life.

If it was my daughter, and she came home with this news, I would be floored. But, I would have her carry the child to term and give it up for adoption. I would place our names with the agency so that the child would have the option to get to know their lineage should they choose when they turn 18.

At my hospital we have had a number of young minors give birth, even a couple as young as 13. They invariably give the child over to adoption until about 16, then the mothers tend to keep them. I don't know how much pressure the families / social workers are exerting.

Cynthetiq · 05-04-2005, 01:15 PM

follow up:

Quote:

State ends battle; teen has abortion

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/11556764.htm

The battle over whether a 13-year-old foster child could end her pregnancy ended Tuesday when the state decided not to continue its court challenge.
BY CAROL MARBIN MILLER, NOAH BIERMAN AND LESLEY CLARK
cmarbin@herald.com

WEST PALM BEACH - A 13-year-old foster child whose decision to have an abortion ignited a legal battle with state officials quietly ended her pregnancy Tuesday, after GovJeb Bush announced the state would no longer fight a judge's order.

Attorneys for the girl declined to discuss the procedure late Tuesday, citing the girl's desire to safeguard her privacy.

''I am of the understanding that this case is over, both legally and medically,'' said Howard Simon, head of the Florida American Civil Liberties Union, which had helped represent the girl in court proceedings.

Said Maxine Williams, the girl's longtime attorney at Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County: ``The court ruled, and the governor gave up. . . I'm just glad the whole thing is over.''

While previously fighting to thwart the abortion, the Department of Children & Families had argued that state law made it impermissible for the department to ``consent to sterilization, abortion or termination of life support.''

But on Tuesday, Marilyn Munoz, a DCF spokeswoman in West Palm Beach, said: ``We will not interfere with anything. We will comply with what the judge ordered.''

At an 11 a.m. hearing Tuesday, Palm Beach Circuit Judge Ronald Alvarez lifted a Fourth District Court of Appeal stay that had become the only legal obstacle to the girl, known only as L.G. in court documents, getting the abortion.

The stay had been in place since Monday evening, when DCF had appealed Alvarez's order that the girl's lawyers transport her to a clinic for the procedure.

''As the days go by, the circumstances become more compelling and the further delay further puts this child's life at risk,'' Alvarez said in court.

Earlier Tuesday, the governor unexpectedly told reporters that his administration would discontinue efforts to halt the abortion, clearing the way for the girl to proceed.

DCF ''did the right thing to make the initial appeal to make sure that this was reviewed carefully,'' Bush said. ``We're talking about the loss of a life.''

''Look, if the judge has ruled, it's time to move on,'' Bush said. ``It's a tragedy that a 13-year-old child would be in a vulnerable position where she could be made pregnant and it's a tragedy that the baby will be lost. There's no good news in this at all.''

Williams, the girl's attorney, said L.G.'s legal team fought vigorously to end the case quickly, fearing DCF would seek to prolong the proceedings until it would no longer be safe for L.G. to end her pregnancy. ''We were determined not to let that happen,'' Williams told The Herald.

The plight of L.G., who was taken from her parents four or five years ago due to abuse and neglect, sparked an outcry once her pregnancy and efforts to terminate it became public.

To children's advocates, who have become a powerful force in Florida in response to years of child welfare scandals, L.G. symbolized DCF's failure to safeguard and protect children in its care.

To antiabortion activists, who have found a powerful ally in Bush, the case was a reminder of their inability to abolish a procedure they believe is tantamount to murder.

''We have two victims,'' said Lynda Bell, a spokeswoman for Florida Right to Life. ``We have a 13-year-old who has been victimized, as well as her baby.''

L.G. ran away from a DCF-licensed group home in early or mid-January, and became pregnant the month she was a runaway. Three weeks ago, L.G. was told she was pregnant, records show. After being counseled about her choices, she told caseworkers she wished to have an abortion.

LEGAL BATTLES

The procedure was scheduled for April 26. But before L.G. arrived at the clinic, DCF attorneys asked Judge Alvarez to halt the procedure. A week of legal wrangling followed.

Williams said her office informed DCF of the child's intentions -- the only legal requirement, in her opinion. She questioned why DCF lawyers waited to intervene.

''They've known about it for two weeks,'' she said.

Others questioned why DCF sought to block the abortion in the first place; for many years, state officials have turned a blind eye while foster children routinely terminated unwanted pregnancies, some juvenile court judges said.

''I have done this for 10 years,'' said Cindy Lederman, Miami's chief juvenile judge, who presides over foster care and adoption cases. ``If a child wishes to have an abortion, she gets an abortion.''

Said Miami-Dade Circuit Judge Jeri Beth Cohen, who presided over child-welfare cases until a transfer two years ago: ``During my six years there, this never became an issue.''

Often, foster children who became pregnant would end their pregnancies without ever appearing before a judge, said Nancy Barshter, a former assistant attorney general who founded, then managed the state's child welfare legal services offices in Fort Lauderdale and Tampa.

`VERY LOW-KEY'

''The key to it is that it was done very low-key,'' said Barshter, who retired from the Attorney General's Office two years ago. ``It wasn't brought before the court, and it wasn't discussed among the lawyers unless something else was going on, such as the child had been raped or was truly emotionally disturbed.''

Anita Bock, who headed the Miami DCF office until she was asked to resign in 1998, said abortions were not an issue during her tenure.

''For all the years I worked at DCF as the district administrator in Miami-Dade, we allowed these decisions to be made by adults acting in the best interest'' of the child, she said.

''The governor should stay out of an issue that has for years been handled quietly and with dignity at the local level, in a manner consistent with what is truly in the best interest of the children DCF so often fails to protect and care for as it should.'' added Bock, who is now a consultant based in Marin County, Calif.

Bush called judges' assertions that teens in DCF custody routinely get abortions ``troubling.''

''If that's the case, [and] it happens all the time, I'm not aware of that,'' Bush said. ``It's very troubling that children are put in a position, irrespective of whether they're in the custody of the state, where they feel compelled to have an abortion. It's a sad fact and there's an added responsibility when the state has some degree of responsibility over the well-being of that child.''

NO NOTIFICATION LAW

Ken Connor, former president of the Christian group Focus on the Family and a lawyer who represented Bush in the Terri Schiavo case, said the decision not to appeal was legally wise.

''Florida has no parental notification statute for minors who want to have an abortion because of its activist state Supreme Court,'' he said. ``As a matter of law . . . parents don't have a legal right to stop a 13-year-old from having an abortion. In this case, the state, which has custody of this child, can't have rights superior to the rights a parent would have.''

Herald staff writer Lisa Arthur contributed to this report.

04-28-2005, 04:54 AM	#1 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	The Best Interest of the Child? Girl, 13, fighting DCF bid to block abortion The state and child advocates face off in court over the case of a 13-year-old foster child who wants to end her pregnancy. BY CAROL MARBIN MILLER The plight of a 13-year-old Palm Beach County foster child, who is pregnant and wants an abortion, is pitting children's advocates against Florida's child welfare agency, which has custody of the girl and has asked a judge to forbid her from ending her 13-week pregnancy. The Department of Children & Families, which has been responsible for the girl for many years, argued to a West Palm Beach judge Tuesday that the girl is too immature to decide for herself whether to carry the pregnancy to term. Attorneys for the girl, who is identified in court papers only as L.G., told Judge Ronald Alvarez that Florida courts have consistently held that, under the state's strongly worded privacy law, minors have a right to decide for themselves whether to continue or abort a pregnancy. The controversy is likely to reopen fresh wounds. The March 31 death of Terri Schiavo, after a Pinellas County judge ordered the removal of her feeding tube, exposed deep fissures between state government and the courts over questions involving privacy and preservation-of-life issues. Some of the same passions that roiled in that case could be awakened. On Tuesday, Alvarez signed an order temporarily halting the girl from terminating her pregnancy, an order that has been appealed by the girl's lawyers. The judge also has ordered a psychological evaluation to determine whether she is competent to decide for herself whether to end the pregnancy -- and what actions would be in her best interests. A spokeswoman for DCF, which provoked a firestorm in 2003 when officials sought to prevent a severely disabled Orlando woman, J.D.S., from terminating her pregnancy, declined to discuss the case at length. ''The Department of Children & Families is acting in accordance with what we believe is in the best interest of the child,'' said Zoraya Suarez, a spokeswoman for Secretary Lucy Hadi. ``If a child in our care requires any procedure that is prohibited by Florida statute, we cannot consent to that procedure.'' Florida law says that ''in no case shall the department [DCF] consent to a sterilization, abortion or termination of life support'' on behalf of a client under department care. The American Civil Liberties Union of Florida and the Legal Aid Society of Palm Beach County, which are representing the girl, insist that the Florida law is trumped by a 1989 Florida Supreme Court decision, called the T.W. case. Citing privacy rights, the high court struck down a state law that required the consent of parents before a minor could obtain an abortion. ''DCF and the circuit court have instituted a process whereby the state will make a decision for L.G. based upon its own evaluation of her best interest,'' the girl's lawyers wrote. ``This it cannot do.'' L.G., whose parents were stripped of their rights to raise her, has been in foster care for several years. Though she is originally from Palm Beach County, sources say she was living in a group home in St. Petersburg when she became pregnant. She now lives in a licensed shelter home, records show. About two weeks ago, L.G. learned she was pregnant following a medical examination, records show. ''Almost immediately after learning that she was pregnant, L.G. informed [her] DCF caseworker that she wished to terminate the pregnancy,'' according to pleadings filed by her attorneys. The abortion was scheduled for Tuesday. But early Tuesday morning, DCF attorneys, in an emergency motion, asked Alvarez to block the abortion. He agreed, temporarily, and ordered the girl be examined for mental competency. In court papers, L.G.'s lawyers say the girl, ''though a longtime ward of the state,'' was never determined to be incompetent, and was never placed in a mental institution for treatment -- an action that is not uncommon for longtime foster children. Lynda Bell, a Homestead woman who heads Florida Right to Life, an antiabortion group, praised the judge's action, saying officials needed to study the case more closely before making any decisions. ''I'm very concerned with the rush to abort,'' Bell said. ''My concern number one is for this child,'' she added. ``This just breaks my heart.'' But Howard Simon, who heads the American Civil Liberties Union in Florida, a group that is partly representing L.G., called the state's action politically motivated. ''This is what you get when ideology drives child welfare decisions,'' Simon said. ''Putting aside the legal and the constitutional principles here, the fact that the state is preparing to force a 13-year-old to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term is just simply cruel,'' Simon added. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ah Florida... I can't even imagine what this child is going thru, first to be pregnant at age 13 (Yes, it wasn't an immaculate conception, so she is responsible as well) but then to have the state block what you want to do? Wouldn't having this child, that age 13, she's unable to support, be much worse on her than having the abortion? Should a 13 year old be able to make a decision as to what to do with her own body? This is a ward of the state, what if she were your 13 year old daughter who found out she was pregnant? __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

04-28-2005, 05:13 AM	#4 (permalink)
Seeker Getting Clearer Location: with spirit	OMG, I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like if my daughter were pregnant! She is 12 now, so it's not a very big difference in my eyes. But, given that she were pregnant and wanted to abort - I wouldn't stop her. She is still a child in my eyes and I personally wonder about the issues of motherhood and what it would do to such a young child. Then again, if she knew enough to get herself pregnant, then she really wouldn't be the child that I see... This of course is if I could get over the fact that she were out and sleeping around, then I'd have to look at the fact that I wouldn't be the mother I have been and the list goes on... What a shame for this particular girl. I would like to know a bit about her reasons for wanting the abortion. __________________ *To those who wander but who are not lost...* ~ Knowledge is not something you acquire, it is something you open yourself to.

04-28-2005, 08:40 AM	#11 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	Now, according to a reference I found in Florida Law, Currently, you do not need parent permission to have an abortion. However, there is a law which requires girls younger than 18 to get permission from one parent to have an abortion. This law is not being enforced because of a court order. http://www.coolnurse.com/abortion_laws.htm While the law contradicts itself, since the law is not being enforced, the state really shouldn't have a lot to say about it. __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

04-28-2005, 09:18 AM	#14 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	A little of a bit of a tangent but if this girl was raped or if she was somehow mentally incapacitated and pregnant, I wonder if we would have the opposite going on, that being people enforcing an abortion. __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

04-28-2005, 11:28 AM	#19 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	Normally I am a pro-lifer but not in this case. It's obvious the girl made a poor choice. It's situations where the parent/parents are adults, neglect to use BC, get pregnant, and then find a baby would be inconvenient. Is this a co-ed foster home? What are they putting young teenage kids (and their newly found hormones) together for? This girl probably does not have the physical development necessary to carry this fetus to full term. It is a big risk that she would miscarry anyway or even suffer complications that could put her in harms way. What is DCF gonna do if the girls dies or had serious trouble in childbirth? Are they gonna be there by her side? I would be surprised. I can fully understand the girls fears. I hope they don't wait too long. The farther along the fetus gets the more risky the abortion would be. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

04-28-2005, 05:13 AM	#5 (permalink)
StanT © Location: Colorado	If this were a custody hearing, a judge would ask the girl where she wanted to live and why. A judge would make the legal decision, but the girl's opinion would carry a great deal of weight. This case should be handled the same way. I'm reluctant to give full legal rights to a 13 year old, I am also unwilling to ignore her.

04-28-2005, 06:29 AM	#7 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	So a girl who is too immature to make the decision about abortion is mature enough to care for a baby?

04-28-2005, 07:39 AM	#8 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	Hmmm. I'm not seeing how forcing this child to continue an unwanted pregnancy, carry the fetus to term, and give birth to an unwanted child is in her best interests. Medically, giving birth to a full term baby is much more dangeraous than a first trimester abortion, In terms of what's best for her quality of life, if she's too immature to make this decision herself, how is having a child more in her best interests than not having it? If she wanted to, by all means, that would be fine, but I can't conceive of any way in which this child's life will be improved by being forced to continue this pregancy.

04-28-2005, 08:40 AM	#10 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	I'm not a lawyer, so I have to ask, does lack of consent equal opposition? Does a law that requires DCF not to consent to something mean that they are required to oppose it? In terms of language by itself, they're two different things, but it may be that in legal terms they mean the same thing. Anyone know for sure?

04-28-2005, 09:01 AM	#13 (permalink)
la petite moi Filling the Void. Location: California	This just reminded me: I read in the paper today that the House passed a bill stating that a minor cannot go out of state to get an abortion if there is not an adult consent for the abortion. Bush said this is to promote communication in families, but personally, if these girls are getting pregnant in the first place, I doubt they have a good family life.

04-28-2005, 10:34 AM	#16 (permalink)
AngelicVampire Insane	Rights of 13 year old trump rights of unborn child. Rights of father (not going there in this thread). Rights of Parents/State/Right to Lifers are ignorable. I was 13 once, and very opinionated and knew what I wanted (my parents always taught me to think for myself), to be told No you cannot do something that may stop you screwing up your life I think is the Girl's decision.

04-28-2005, 10:41 AM	#17 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	Just imagine, if this girl does have the child she could be a grandmother by 30 if her child is similarly sexually inclined.

04-28-2005, 11:28 AM	#20 (permalink)
Cuatela Insane Location: NC, USA	Here's a question: If the girl was legally too young to even be sexually active (which she is as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong), then why not force her to at least have the child to show her that there are consequences for disobeying the law? If she doesn't want the child, they can always put him up for adoption. __________________ Any sarcasm was intentional.

04-28-2005, 11:49 AM	#22 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Wow, there is a convergence of so many issues. It's really "hot" too. Man, a child having a child... soundls like foster care screwed up. Well, here's my attempt: 1. Can a minor (under 18) legally abort or make that decision even? 13 is really young: Is abortion even "safe" for the girl? 2. The pro-life in me is screaming right now but I'm not one of those "crazies" Mal refers to. But it is concerning when so many people don't address the life of the baby. 3. The practical (unemotional, "logical") thing to do would be to abort, paid for by the foster parents ASAP. Get the girl some counseling etc. maybe put her in a special school or something. 4. But to follow a principle (yes I know there are others), she carries the child to term and puts it up for adoption. That way, there is no killing of life (definitely my opinion here), she won't be "burdened" for the rest of her life because of a mistake she made. Option 4 seems the most humane to me for all parties. Personal Commentary: Aside from Right to Life issues, abortion just seems too much like a disposable culture, to me. No pain no gain. Kind of like diet pills or other instant gratifiaction gimmicks pervasive in our culture. In my opinion, maybe people would respect life more and be more responsible if they actually understood their actions can have consequences. In the above case, there are too many questions: where did the foster parents fail? Was there no sex ed at her school? There seems to be a cascading sequence of events and conditions that contribute to social decay. I believe the underlying root of the problems can be found there.

04-28-2005, 11:52 AM	#23 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Wow, Gilda, that is a really interesting point that should be explored: Why is that young mothers follow in each others footsteps? What is contributing to the social decay?

04-28-2005, 12:27 PM	#25 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	I cannot believe that in this country they are trying to make this child go through a pregnancy!! Bastards.....Isn't it bad enough she made the mistake of having sex to begin with? Now she makes a choice and they halt it. I could scream....

04-28-2005, 12:44 PM	#27 (permalink)
muttonglutton Crazy Location: K-W. Err... -dot.	Every day I grow to loathe them more, the media-whores of Florida. Personally, I believe abortions are wrong, with certain exceptions. However, I also believe that everyone has the right to make their own decision. I may not agree, but it's not my world. I just live here, and everyone else only tries to do the same. She may have made a mistake in having sex in the first place, but she made her decision to abort it. She won't be mature enough to take care of the baby if the adults around her don't treat her as if she is able. No, she may not fully understand the situation. But I'm sure she's a lot closer to understanding it than any of the Pro-Lifers fighting against her. It's happening in her world, she gets to make the choices. She put herself in an adult's position, and these people are trying to resolve it by telling her that she isn't an adult. What atrocity. __________________ Cellar Door.

04-28-2005, 01:49 PM	#29 (permalink)
cellophanedeity Heliotrope Location: A warm room	The antichoicers of Florida really shouldn't be able to tell this girl that she can't have an abortion, just because she's 13. Here's the news: 13 year olds have sex. Not even just the ones that were raised "wrong" but lots of them. There's a thousand people and things we could place blame on, but it won't stop the fact. And though they may not be the brightest people in the world, thirteen year old kids do understand some basic things. She may not understand all of the ramifications of having an abortion, but she seems to understand why she doesn't want to give birth. Hell, having a kid at thirteen could mess up her poor little sexually active pelvis forever. I think North America needs to start better defining our laws when it comes to children.

04-28-2005, 02:16 PM	#31 (permalink)
KinkyKiwi "Without the fuzz" Location: ..too close for comfort..	this is just horrible...how can they force her to have a baby? and after she has it what will happen to it? i gotta say as an adopted child as much as i love my parents dearly and i know my birthmother knows she made the right choice its affected her strongly. of course after she has the child and sees it...how exactly do you think a 13 year old girl is going to NOT be trumatized by having to give her child away after all that labor pain and love that you develop while carrying it. and what do you wanna bet that after she sees it she will want to keep it? and then what kinda life will that child have...ugh...its not prolife its protorture on both kids! __________________ Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps. Play with each other. Play with yourselves. Just don't play with the squirrels, they bite.

05-03-2005, 04:57 PM	#33 (permalink)
Lead543 Registered User Location: Calgary	I thought and thought and thought. But I can't seem to come up with any sort of "answer" to this. I am against abortion however, I'm also against young irresposible, immature girls going out and getting themselves pregnant. Whatever the case may be I hope this girl and her family gets some intense therapy, the problem is deeper then a 13 year old carrying a kid. So sad.

05-04-2005, 02:00 AM	#34 (permalink)
Baron Opal Crazy Location: Oregon	What a mess. An abortion is at best an unpleasant experience, at worst horrific. But it will be over relatively quickly. The pregnancy will take longer, and she will have to take good care of herself so that the baby will develop well. But, should she give the baby up for adoption, she can take some comfort that the child will have a better chance at a good life. If it was my daughter, and she came home with this news, I would be floored. But, I would have her carry the child to term and give it up for adoption. I would place our names with the agency so that the child would have the option to get to know their lineage should they choose when they turn 18. At my hospital we have had a number of young minors give birth, even a couple as young as 13. They invariably give the child over to adoption until about 16, then the mothers tend to keep them. I don't know how much pressure the families / social workers are exerting.