More Proof of "Pussification of America" - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

jorgelito · 04-04-2005, 06:02 PM

SweetPea, you are partially correct.

I chose to use the phrase "Pussification of America" to:
1. Acknowledge MojoPeiPei's coining of it in another thread
2. Continuation of a dialogue originally titled "Wussification of America" (do a search)
3. Reinvigorate the discussion of said "coddling, 'p*ssification, political-correctness-gone-wild, etc" in a constructive manner.

Cheap theatrics aside, I actually did not intend for the thread to deteriorate into an argument over semantics. My original intention was to discuss the problems as I framed it in terms of: personal responsibility, accountability, parenting, common sense, and the balance between sensitivity and "reality (so-called toughening up). Perhaps I erred in judgement.

I do not think Martin is "wrong" nor do I think he "overreacted". I feel he has pointed out a valid point and regardless of "just words", we should be better than that and create better discourse (myself includeed of course).

I also agree with Hal(x) in that we need to be "tougher" and let that sh*t slide or roll off our backs etc (as I intrepreted what he was saying).

It is true, that MojoPeiPei often uses "colorful" speech in his debates. He is straight-shooter and at the very least, honest and up front. However, one can still make a compelling argument without coarse language or insulting diatribes, in my opinion. We are all here to discuss and words are our medium.

Looking at the "Rules of TFP, I have to remind myself of the "golden rule": to treat everyone with respect and dignity regardless of agreements and disagreements and maintain a level of civility in discourse. We should all review the "rules" from time to time. [smiley face]

So, any teachers here on TFP want to weigh in on yet another "inane rule" (in my opinion) further cleaving parent-teacher relations?

How do things like this eventually affect our kids? What will they do when they get rejected from colleges, jobs etc? Are we setting them up for a huge nasty rude-awakening?

Aladdin Sane · 04-04-2005, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martinguerre

Gendered language does concern me.

I think this kind of concern is pussified.

Psycho Dad · 04-04-2005, 06:19 PM

If I thought for a minute that some of the long lines I've stood in at parent teacher conferences were due to the fucking color of ink, I'd be going on a damn rampage.

Carno · 04-04-2005, 06:39 PM

Hahaha, this shit makes me laugh.. Kids are going to get more and more coddled, and then when they get out in the real world, they are going to be completely helpless. They won't have any tools to deal with anything. How can you expect a kid to learn and to grow without adverse conditions? Tomorrow's adults are going to be a fucked up bunch of helpless babies, unable to cope with the realities of life.

What's also funny is that the same people who are pissed about this are the same people who push for the pussification if people in other ways.

In many ways, I am glad that I am going to be joining the Marine Corps, so I will not have to deal with this bullshit. I'd rather call stupid people stupid, cowardly people cowards, etc. I am too direct for the bleeding pussies that inhabit the United States.

flstf · 04-04-2005, 07:51 PM

Some of my best learning experiences in school were the result of papers I turned in that were bled all over by the teacher. When I screwed up and didn't study, the sight of that blood red writing all over my paper was visible to me before it was passed half way back the row to me. Also there is a very good feeling when you aced the paper and that big bright red A was circled at the top.

I assume we are talking about grade school kids here, high school kids are too old to get excited by this stuff aren't they.

Willravel · 04-04-2005, 08:05 PM

This will weed out the weaker kids. The smarter kids will take power and eventually we will have the Morlocks and Eloi. And all they had to do was let the red ink slide.

F-18_Driver · 04-04-2005, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

They're words. WORDS! That's only about 10% of communication, right? The words shouldn't matter. The meaning behind them should. In this case, the term "Pussification of America" means that we're all approaching life with oven mits on and it's ruining our culture.

And you're still hung up on WORDS!

That explains it! I wondered who was the reincarnation of Frank Zappa.

(That's a compliment.)

If you haven't seen this, it's something of a classic. It's also 21 minutes long, so I'll understand if there are those who don't want to view the whole thing.

Zappa on Crossfire

Zeraph · 04-04-2005, 11:08 PM

I don't think it's that big of a deal. It's hard to tell what long term psychological effects it can have (same thing with using some words like the above argument over pussification.)

I don't see why people get upset over this, why not err on the side of caution? If red colors don't mean anything what's the big deal in changing it?

roachboy · 04-05-2005, 05:59 AM

i do not use red pen when marking up papers because i do not like using a red pen when i mark up papers. so maybe i am complicit in this process of encouraging students to think for themselves by reducing the pointless flourishes that are about nothing but authority in and for itself, which would be part of what i assume you mean, mojo, with your term

"pussification"

were i you, mojo, i would be more concerned about the very macho educational trajectory that enabled you to imagine "the pussification of america" means anything.
it sounds like the kind of phrase that would pop into your mind during your fourth or fifth week of 24/7 limbaugh.

are you advocating anything here, really?
an education that inculcates servility, that respects authority, no matter how bankrupt, because it is authority?
an education that persuades students that a cretin with a gun is more free than someone who can think for themselves?

martinguerre · 04-05-2005, 06:14 AM

jorgelito...i tip my hat to you, good sir. enjoy the rest of your thread.

Mojo_PeiPei · 04-05-2005, 08:05 AM

Yeah, I'm adovcating something here, I want people to wake up and grow some stones. Kids don't need this coddling or else they'll turn into whiney little bitches. Everyone is a winner, so let's do away with honor rolls, because those that didn't make it feel left out. Let's play musical chairs with enough chairs so no ones ego is bruised. National no name calling week? Is this shit serious? Again it doesn't relate so much to this particular instance of markers and color. My issue is that everyone seems to be fostering the idea that everyone is equal, when the reality is that we are not all equal.

Here is an article, talking about how Nashville did away with honor rolls and hanging up work in hallways. They also went after pep rallies and spelling bees.

Quote:

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) - The school honor roll, a time-honored system for rewarding A-students, has become an apparent source of embarrassment for some underachievers.

As a result, all Nashville schools have stopped posting honor rolls, and some are also considering a ban on hanging good work in the hallways - all at the advice of school lawyers.

After a few parents complained their children might be ridiculed for not making the list, Nashville school system lawyers warned that state privacy laws forbid releasing any academic information, good or bad, without permission.

Some schools have since put a stop to academic pep rallies. Others think they may have to cancel spelling bees. And now schools across the state may follow Nashville's lead.

The change has upset many parents who want their children recognized for hard work.

''This is as backward as it gets,'' said Miriam Mimms, who has a son at Meigs Magnet School and helps run the Parent Teacher Association. ''There has to be a way to come back from the rigidity.''

The problem appears unique to Tennessee, since most states follow federal student privacy guidelines, which allow the release of such things as honor rolls, U.S. Department of Education officials said.

''It's the first time I've heard of schools doing that,'' said department spokesman Jim Bradshaw.

But Nashville school lawyers based their decision last month on a state privacy law dating back to the 1970s--a law that's not always followed because no one challenged the honor roll status quo.

School officials are developing permission slips to give parents of the Nashville district's 69,000 students the option of having their children's work recognized. They hope to get clearance before the next grading cycle--in about six weeks at some schools.

Until then, school principals are left trying to figure out what they can and can't do.

Sandy Johnson, chief instructional officer for the Nashville schools, says the restrictions go ''far beyond the honor role.''

''It's for anything having to do with grades and attendance or anything normally reserved just for the student or parent,'' she said.

Getting parents to sign permission slips won't help protect students from being left out, but at least it will comply with the law, school officials said.

Christy Ballard, general counsel for the state Education Department, said she's ''getting a lot of calls'' since the Nashville decision, and will recommend that all Tennessee public schools get honor roll permission slips from parents.

In Knoxville, school district spokesman Russ Oaks said they do not think posting good information about a student violates state law. He said they put such information in the same category as sports statistics.

But some school systems already get parents to sign a release before student information is made public. Others think it might be a good idea to get rid of the honor roll altogether, as Principal Steven Baum did at Julia Green Elementary in Nashville.

''The rationale was, if there are some children that always make it and others that always don't make it, there is a very subtle message that was sent,'' he said. ''I also understand right to privacy is the legal issue for the new century.''

Baum thinks spelling bees and other publicly graded events are leftovers from the days of ranking and sorting students.

''I discourage competitive games at school,'' he said. ''They just don't fit my world view of what a school should be.''

Parents at most schools, though, have been close to outrage over the new rule.

''So far, what we've heard parents say is 'This is crazy; spend your time doing other things,' '' said Teresa Dennis, principal at Percy Priest Elementary School. ''It does seem really silly.''

A similar issue over student privacy went to the U.S. Supreme Court two years ago, when some parents objected to students grading each other's work. The court sided with tradition in that case, ruling the long-standing practice of teachers asking students to swap papers and grade them in class does not violate federal privacy law.

''It's not always clear what falls into (the privacy laws),'' says Naomi E. Gittins, an attorney with the National School Boards Association. ''Schools often take a more cautious route.''

This is pure backwards insanity. Also RB maybe you could fire back to me in laymans terms for me what you are asking, me in my simplistic underachieving burned out glory can't really make out what you are trying to tell and or ask me.

OFKU0 · 04-05-2005, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

The idea that anything is "just a word" seems to me to be a tad naive.

And taking from your words, I'll add "a tad naive" is an understatement.

If a word was just a word, anyone could say anything with no fear of repercussion. That simply isn't reality. Even on this board, if one uses the wrong 'words,' they will get banned. So a word really isn't just a word afterall.

As for the teachers who don't want to use red ink, I say good for them. Teaching is difficult enough and any resource to make the learning experience for everyone involved easier is a positive step.

How that makes kid's "pussys" I really don't know. But being a teacher, and having taught young kids, I don't see the connection. I don't use red ink either. There is enough pressure on young kids by their peers to be cool, macho, not a wimp etc,...that actually permeates the opposte of "pussification". Call it machofication or bullyfication.

To call a teaching method that creates a positive notion out of a potentially negative circumstance (a poor grade) "pussification" shows an ignorance towards a profession that some know little about. Hopefully those entrenched with notions of a society being pussified won't become teachers, or better yet, parents.

Cynthetiq · 04-05-2005, 08:19 AM

emabarassment for some underachievers????? what about the pride of the achievers? doesn't that have value?

presonally the words are just words, but America spends way too much time worrying about making someone uncomfortable.

Carno · 04-05-2005, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OFKU0

If a word was just a word, anyone could say anything with no fear of repercussion. That simply isn't reality. Even on this board, if one uses the wrong 'words,' they will get banned. So a word really isn't just a word afterall.

Yeah no shit, right? If I were use the word 'fatass' a lot, I would be insta-banned.

Glory's Sun · 04-05-2005, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carn

In many ways, I am glad that I am going to be joining the Marine Corps, so I will not have to deal with this bullshit. I'd rather call stupid people stupid, cowardly people cowards, etc. I am too direct for the bleeding pussies that inhabit the United States.

so how does joining the Marines make you not have to deal with this shit? After all you'd be the one protecting all the "bleeding pussies".

04-05-2005, 09:49 AM

Words define how you come across to the rest of the world. You can choose which words to use and which words to avoid. Normally, using swear, curse and anatomical words in place of more descriptive words is an easy way to convey an image of ignorance and stupidity. In very rare cases do people get away with it. Many people think they can get away with it and don't.

However, someone who's getting upset at how gentle and delicate America is becoming, is probably not going to care about being percieved by people like me as being ignorant.

jorgelito · 04-05-2005, 09:54 AM

It's not that "red ink" makes kids "pussies", rather, the issue that I was trying to address (and I assume Mojo too) is the reaction or overeaction to seemingly simple everyday events.

For example, to over simplify, the school and parents are concerned that the color red will hurt the kid's self esteem etc, etc. Or, that having honor rolls will do the same. It is the "everybody's a winner" culture that is misleading and (in my opinion) detrimental to kid;s development.

That is why I asked teacher's to weigh in. It seems to me that it gets harder and harder for teachers to well, teach these days because of new restrictions, and changing pedagogy. By over-coddling and aiding-and-abetting the delusion of "we're all winners", are we not setting up the kids for some major harsh reality check down the road?

The color of the pen really wasn't the point, I was trying to address the motivation behind it and its potential effects.

In the "wussification threads" (do a search), someone mentioned how their 1st grader was playing musical chairs at school, but to avoid hurt feelings, they didn't take away a chair. That way, everyone would have a chair! Seemingly innocuous, but lays the foundation for stunted growth. What's next, no scoring or records allowed in school sports?

I believe, the lesson we learn is "rising above adversity".

For example: My paper is returned to me with a sea of red ink. With a score of "C-", the teacher is merciless in pointing out my grammar errors, poor structure, sideways logic, and lack of support for the argument. Do I hold my head in my hands and cry? Well, maybe I shed some tears, but more importantly, I talk to the teacher, make my corrections and do better next time. Not, "oh no, look at all the red ink, my self-esteem os lowered now".

In the same way that we own our successes, we also own our failures. Personal responsibility, accountability can be instilled at an early age. It is the trend of blaming others or (hypersensitivity) that I am concerned with.

MartinGuerre, thank you for your kind remarks.

Carno · 04-05-2005, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

so how does joining the Marines make you not have to deal with this shit? After all you'd be the one protecting all the "bleeding pussies".

Because not many people in the Marines are bleeding pussies.

If I worked out in the civilian world, I would have to deal with whiny bitches every day of my life. In the military, I would have to deal with much less of that.

I'm not saying that military people know everything or are right about everything, just that I would rather hear nationalism and patriotic bullshit than bleeding heart hippy bullshit.

filtherton · 04-05-2005, 10:07 AM

I see a lot of people making bold proclamations about future generations of weaklings we are currently going to curse ourselves with. What i want to see is if there is any basis for this perspective. So teachers don't use red pens? And? Do any of you honestly think that the color of the ink plays any kind of fundamental role in the education a child recieves? Do any of you honestly think that the honor roll plays a huge part in the education of the average child? If so, maybe i should start a thread concerning the "baseless-speculationification" of america.

Carno · 04-05-2005, 10:14 AM

I don't think it's any single act that people think is making kids into weaklings, but more the mindset that kids should be coddled and protected from every single little tiny thing that may make them the least bit uncomfortable.

jorgelito · 04-05-2005, 10:21 AM

Yes, yes that's it. Thank you Carn, I guess I went the long-winded way about it. I don't think anyone bothers to read my posts anyhow, LOL.

ShaniFaye · 04-05-2005, 10:21 AM

I honestly think I live on the wrong planet.....for this to even be an issue is ridiculous.....

pussification is right

Glory's Sun · 04-05-2005, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carn

Because not many people in the Marines are bleeding pussies.

If I worked out in the civilian world, I would have to deal with whiny bitches every day of my life. In the military, I would have to deal with much less of that.

I'm not saying that military people know everything or are right about everything, just that I would rather hear nationalism and patriotic bullshit than bleeding heart hippy bullshit.

I have a friend who is a corpman. I've known plenty of Marines and my dad is a retired vet. I've never heard more bitching about things than military people. Anyway, I guess this is off topic so I'll leave it at that

jorgelito · 04-05-2005, 10:29 AM

Wait, Shanifaye, which issue are you referring to? (I think I got caught in the middle of a few different conversations here).

ShaniFaye · 04-05-2005, 10:31 AM

I was referring to the parents getting pissed off about the use of the red pens...lol I ignored all the posts that didnt refer to that specific thing....sorry for the confusion

filtherton · 04-05-2005, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carn

I don't think it's any single act that people think is making kids into weaklings, but more the mindset that kids should be coddled and protected from every single little tiny thing that may make them the least bit uncomfortable.

Do you really think that it is a problem on a massive scale? If you don't have kids why does it matter? If you do have kids, why does it matter if other parents want to "pussify" their children?

I agree that children shouldn't be coddled. I don't think that evidence of the occasional isolated incident that may or may not actually have coddling effect on the children involved amounts to evidence of large scale coddling. I bet that for every instance of "coddling" there is at least one instance of some kid getting the crap kicked out of him/her.

Perhaps all you parents out there who fear the pussification of america could do all your countrymen a favor and beat the hell out of your child. Depussify him/her. If everyone does their part, we'll have nothing to fear.

Carno · 04-05-2005, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

I have a friend who is a corpman. I've known plenty of Marines and my dad is a retired vet. I've never heard more bitching about things than military people. Anyway, I guess this is off topic so I'll leave it at that

I never said military people don't bitch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

Do you really think that it is a problem on a massive scale? If you don't have kids why does it matter? If you do have kids, why does it matter if other parents want to "pussify" their children?

I agree that children shouldn't be coddled. I don't think that evidence of the occasional isolated incident that may or may not actually have coddling effect on the children involved amounts to evidence of large scale coddling. I bet that for every instance of "coddling" there is at least one instance of some kid getting the crap kicked out of him/her.

Perhaps all you parents out there who fear the pussification of america could do all your countrymen a favor and beat the hell out of your child. Depussify him/her. If everyone does their part, we'll have nothing to fear.

I am not around kids a lot nor do I care to be, because I don't particularly like kids, so I'm not qualified to say whether they are being pussified or not. I was merely attempting to clarify what was being said.

I do however find it extremely annoying and stupid when people think that red ink should be banned from school papers because it lowers a kid's self esteem. In all the time that I have been in school, I have never known anyone who's self esteem was lowered because they did shitty on a paper and the teacher wrote in red.

Cynthetiq · 04-05-2005, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carn

I do however find it extremely annoying and stupid when people think that red ink should be banned from school papers because it lowers a kid's self esteem. In all the time that I have been in school, I have never known anyone who's self esteem was lowered because they did shitty on a paper and the teacher wrote in red.

I don't see the correllation either.

The kids self esteem was lowered by the poor marks they received for the effort they put forth, not by the color of the pen.

biznatch · 04-05-2005, 11:29 AM

My papers have always been graded in red as a kid. It never shocked me.. I never cared. What would be important would be whats written on the goddamn paper.
Whether you write in blue, black, green, or even pink (to "pussify" kids even more...juuuust kidding) the fact is that you shouldn't waste time worrying what color the writing is in, but how you can make the kids progress. Maybe teachers should meet and discuss more of cognitive science, or the content of their classes. I don't think this is a case of pussification, just retardification.

filtherton · 04-05-2005, 12:52 PM

I think the problem the parents had in the article was that they felt that red was a more "stressful" color. It's a value judgement. Everyone makes value judgements every day. Furthermore, it is relatively meaningless by any kind of measure. The parents decided that they didn't want the teachers to use red anymore. Big fucking deal. That's just one more of the many arbitrary rules that make up every day of our existence. It may be stupid, but it's their decision to make, apparently, and all of you would be hard-pressed to demonstrate any kind of ill effects of a red ink ban.

It seems ironic to me that a great many people in this thread are going out of their way to get offended by people whom they believe are going out of their way to get offended. In the nomenclature of the thread starter, you are all a bunch of pussies.

Lebell · 04-05-2005, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

This will weed out the weaker kids. The smarter kids will take power and eventually we will have the Morlocks and Eloi. And all they had to do was let the red ink slide.

I personally welcome our new Morlock masters

04-05-2005, 12:59 PM

filtherton - perfect post

Cadwiz · 04-05-2005, 02:03 PM

I think it's really sad that parent's only reaction to their kid being a moron is "don't use red ink on Johnny's paper". I personally couldn't care less what color is used. Befor long, purple will be associated with warping young minds, and will be discarded in favor of pink.

I do forsee a time when they don't even grade papers anymore. Just give the whole class a gold star and a big group hug. That should get them ready for real life.

gal · 04-05-2005, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

... but c'mon, a little reality and common sense please. ...

My understanding of the american society is that there is no such thing as common sense. I'm not saying Americans are stupid, just that there appear to be no common sense. I'm referring to all the warning labels you see on everything (like "CONTENTS FLAMMABLE!" on lighters) and also all the lawsuits (ref. Stella awards) it is seems that there really is no common sense as defined by the law. I think this is a problem in schools as well, who are more conserned with being PC than teaching (and enforcing) common sense.

filtherton · 04-05-2005, 08:34 PM

The idea of common sense only exists to help people who think they have it feel superior to anyone who may not share their perspective or knowledge on certain subjects.

Until you can find one thing that every human agrees upon, there is no such thing as common sense in any kind of meaningful way.

Mojo_PeiPei · 04-05-2005, 09:23 PM

I disagree Filth, there is such a thing as common sense. Saying there isn't, subscribing to some "great philosophical" "everything is a matter of perspective" is just for lack of a better word, retarded.

filtherton · 04-06-2005, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

I disagree Filth, there is such a thing as common sense. Saying there isn't, subscribing to some "great philosophical" "everything is a matter of perspective" is just for lack of a better word, retarded.

Nope, you're wrong. Tell me one thing that all humans have in common in terms of perspective and perception, without it you can't have anything in common in terms of sense. Maybe you could define common sense for me, not as a concept, but as it is in practice.

All you need is a job where you deal with many different people on a regular basis. What may seem like common sense to you may be completely foreign to someone else, whereas what may seem like common sense to someone else may be completely foreign to you.

"Common sense" is a meaningless term for people who can't understand that their own perspective isn't universal.

gal · 04-06-2005, 08:27 AM

Common sense to me is what a majority people in a geographical or social group percieve as sensible. I'd say 90% of the americans I've met share my perception of sensibility, but that is of course a biased group. I think part of the the problem in US with regard to loony lawsuits is that the US is a diverse nation where it's harder to define common sense. Also the deeply founded american idea of personal independence and freedom inherently recognizes that others may have very different personal beliefs.

Anyway, it's pretty easy to mention examples of common sense within a group of people. For instance for the western world:

Don't jump in front of moving cars
Eating 10 BigMacs a day is unhealthy
Don't use the hair dryer in the bath tub
An 8-ball is not a pregnancy test
For sun lotion to work, you have to apply it to the skin
Loud farting at dinner parties is considered rude

filtherton · 04-06-2005, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gal

Common sense to me is what a majority people in a geographical or social group percieve as sensible. I'd say 90% of the americans I've met share my perception of sensibility, but that is of course a biased group. I think part of the the problem in US with regard to loony lawsuits is that the US is a diverse nation where it's harder to define common sense. Also the deeply founded american idea of personal independence and freedom inherently recognizes that others may have very different personal beliefs.

Anyway, it's pretty easy to mention examples of common sense within a group of people. For instance for the western world:

Don't jump in front of moving cars
Eating 10 BigMacs a day is unhealthy
Don't use the hair dryer in the bath tub
An 8-ball is not a pregnancy test
For sun lotion to work, you have to apply it to the skin
Loud farting at dinner parties is considered rude

I see what you're saying. I guess my point is that lacking common sense only means that someone doesn't share the perspective of the majority. This is often not a bad thing. I don't think having common sense is inherently valuable. There are a great many things which the majority has absolutely no clue about. If you asked the average person what the most common sense way to find a solution to a seperable first order differential equation most would just look at you like you were speaking french. What is common sense to someone taking a diff eq class is not common sense to the average american, just as what might be common sense to a bunch of parents in washington might not be common sense to a bunch of random strangers on the internet.

flstf · 04-06-2005, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

The idea of common sense only exists to help people who think they have it feel superior to anyone who may not share their perspective or knowledge on certain subjects.

Yeah, I'm not exactly sure what common sense is but when I was an adolescent my father assured me I didn't have any.

04-04-2005, 06:19 PM	#43 (permalink)
Psycho Dad Mulletproof Location: Some nucking fut house.	If I thought for a minute that some of the long lines I've stood in at parent teacher conferences were due to the fucking color of ink, I'd be going on a damn rampage. __________________ Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

04-05-2005, 05:59 AM	#49 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i do not use red pen when marking up papers because i do not like using a red pen when i mark up papers. so maybe i am complicit in this process of encouraging students to think for themselves by reducing the pointless flourishes that are about nothing but authority in and for itself, which would be part of what i assume you mean, mojo, with your term "pussification" were i you, mojo, i would be more concerned about the very macho educational trajectory that enabled you to imagine "the pussification of america" means anything. it sounds like the kind of phrase that would pop into your mind during your fourth or fifth week of 24/7 limbaugh. are you advocating anything here, really? an education that inculcates servility, that respects authority, no matter how bankrupt, because it is authority? an education that persuades students that a cretin with a gun is more free than someone who can think for themselves? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

04-05-2005, 06:14 AM	#50 (permalink)
martinguerre whosoever Location: New England	jorgelito...i tip my hat to you, good sir. enjoy the rest of your thread. __________________ For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life. -John 3:16

04-05-2005, 08:19 AM	#53 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	emabarassment for some underachievers????? what about the pride of the achievers? doesn't that have value? presonally the words are just words, but America spends way too much time worrying about making someone uncomfortable. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

04-05-2005, 09:54 AM	#57 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	It's not that "red ink" makes kids "pussies", rather, the issue that I was trying to address (and I assume Mojo too) is the reaction or overeaction to seemingly simple everyday events. For example, to over simplify, the school and parents are concerned that the color red will hurt the kid's self esteem etc, etc. Or, that having honor rolls will do the same. It is the "everybody's a winner" culture that is misleading and (in my opinion) detrimental to kid;s development. That is why I asked teacher's to weigh in. It seems to me that it gets harder and harder for teachers to well, teach these days because of new restrictions, and changing pedagogy. By over-coddling and aiding-and-abetting the delusion of "we're all winners", are we not setting up the kids for some major harsh reality check down the road? The color of the pen really wasn't the point, I was trying to address the motivation behind it and its potential effects. In the "wussification threads" (do a search), someone mentioned how their 1st grader was playing musical chairs at school, but to avoid hurt feelings, they didn't take away a chair. That way, everyone would have a chair! Seemingly innocuous, but lays the foundation for stunted growth. What's next, no scoring or records allowed in school sports? I believe, the lesson we learn is "rising above adversity". For example: My paper is returned to me with a sea of red ink. With a score of "C-", the teacher is merciless in pointing out my grammar errors, poor structure, sideways logic, and lack of support for the argument. Do I hold my head in my hands and cry? Well, maybe I shed some tears, but more importantly, I talk to the teacher, make my corrections and do better next time. Not, "oh no, look at all the red ink, my self-esteem os lowered now". In the same way that we own our successes, we also own our failures. Personal responsibility, accountability can be instilled at an early age. It is the trend of blaming others or (hypersensitivity) that I am concerned with. MartinGuerre, thank you for your kind remarks. Last edited by jorgelito; 04-05-2005 at 09:58 AM.. Reason: grammar, clarity

04-04-2005, 06:02 PM	#41 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	SweetPea, you are partially correct. I chose to use the phrase "Pussification of America" to: 1. Acknowledge MojoPeiPei's coining of it in another thread 2. Continuation of a dialogue originally titled "Wussification of America" (do a search) 3. Reinvigorate the discussion of said "coddling, 'pssification, political-correctness-gone-wild, etc" in a constructive manner. Cheap theatrics aside, I actually did not intend for the thread to deteriorate into an argument over semantics. My original intention was to discuss the problems as I framed it in terms of: personal responsibility, accountability, parenting, common sense, and the balance between sensitivity and "reality (so-called toughening up). Perhaps I erred in judgement. I do not think Martin* is "wrong" nor do I think he "overreacted". I feel he has pointed out a valid point and regardless of "just words", we should be better than that and create better discourse (myself includeed of course). I also agree with Hal(x) in that we need to be "tougher" and let that sht slide or roll off our backs etc (as I intrepreted what he was saying). It is true, that MojoPeiPei* often uses "colorful" speech in his debates. He is straight-shooter and at the very least, honest and up front. However, one can still make a compelling argument without coarse language or insulting diatribes, in my opinion. We are all here to discuss and words are our medium. Looking at the "Rules of TFP, I have to remind myself of the "golden rule": to treat everyone with respect and dignity regardless of agreements and disagreements and maintain a level of civility in discourse. We should all review the "rules" from time to time. [smiley face] So, any teachers here on TFP want to weigh in on yet another "inane rule" (in my opinion) further cleaving parent-teacher relations? How do things like this eventually affect our kids? What will they do when they get rejected from colleges, jobs etc? Are we setting them up for a huge nasty rude-awakening?

04-04-2005, 06:39 PM	#44 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	Hahaha, this shit makes me laugh.. Kids are going to get more and more coddled, and then when they get out in the real world, they are going to be completely helpless. They won't have any tools to deal with anything. How can you expect a kid to learn and to grow without adverse conditions? Tomorrow's adults are going to be a fucked up bunch of helpless babies, unable to cope with the realities of life. What's also funny is that the same people who are pissed about this are the same people who push for the pussification if people in other ways. In many ways, I am glad that I am going to be joining the Marine Corps, so I will not have to deal with this bullshit. I'd rather call stupid people stupid, cowardly people cowards, etc. I am too direct for the bleeding pussies that inhabit the United States.

04-04-2005, 07:51 PM	#45 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	Some of my best learning experiences in school were the result of papers I turned in that were bled all over by the teacher. When I screwed up and didn't study, the sight of that blood red writing all over my paper was visible to me before it was passed half way back the row to me. Also there is a very good feeling when you aced the paper and that big bright red A was circled at the top. I assume we are talking about grade school kids here, high school kids are too old to get excited by this stuff aren't they.

04-04-2005, 08:05 PM	#46 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	This will weed out the weaker kids. The smarter kids will take power and eventually we will have the Morlocks and Eloi. And all they had to do was let the red ink slide.

04-04-2005, 11:08 PM	#48 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	I don't think it's that big of a deal. It's hard to tell what long term psychological effects it can have (same thing with using some words like the above argument over pussification.) I don't see why people get upset over this, why not err on the side of caution? If red colors don't mean anything what's the big deal in changing it?

04-05-2005, 09:49 AM	#56 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	Words define how you come across to the rest of the world. You can choose which words to use and which words to avoid. Normally, using swear, curse and anatomical words in place of more descriptive words is an easy way to convey an image of ignorance and stupidity. In very rare cases do people get away with it. Many people think they can get away with it and don't. However, someone who's getting upset at how gentle and delicate America is becoming, is probably not going to care about being percieved by people like me as being ignorant.

04-05-2005, 10:07 AM	#59 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I see a lot of people making bold proclamations about future generations of weaklings we are currently going to curse ourselves with. What i want to see is if there is any basis for this perspective. So teachers don't use red pens? And? Do any of you honestly think that the color of the ink plays any kind of fundamental role in the education a child recieves? Do any of you honestly think that the honor roll plays a huge part in the education of the average child? If so, maybe i should start a thread concerning the "baseless-speculationification" of america.

04-05-2005, 10:14 AM	#60 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	I don't think it's any single act that people think is making kids into weaklings, but more the mindset that kids should be coddled and protected from every single little tiny thing that may make them the least bit uncomfortable.

04-05-2005, 10:21 AM	#61 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Yes, yes that's it. Thank you Carn, I guess I went the long-winded way about it. I don't think anyone bothers to read my posts anyhow, LOL.

04-05-2005, 10:21 AM	#62 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I honestly think I live on the wrong planet.....for this to even be an issue is ridiculous..... pussification is right __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

04-05-2005, 10:29 AM	#64 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Wait, Shanifaye, which issue are you referring to? (I think I got caught in the middle of a few different conversations here).

04-05-2005, 10:31 AM	#65 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I was referring to the parents getting pissed off about the use of the red pens...lol I ignored all the posts that didnt refer to that specific thing....sorry for the confusion __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

04-05-2005, 11:29 AM	#69 (permalink)
biznatch Junkie Location: France	My papers have always been graded in red as a kid. It never shocked me.. I never cared. What would be important would be whats written on the goddamn paper. Whether you write in blue, black, green, or even pink (to "pussify" kids even more...juuuust kidding) the fact is that you shouldn't waste time worrying what color the writing is in, but how you can make the kids progress. Maybe teachers should meet and discuss more of cognitive science, or the content of their classes. I don't think this is a case of pussification, just retardification. __________________ Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

04-05-2005, 12:52 PM	#70 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think the problem the parents had in the article was that they felt that red was a more "stressful" color. It's a value judgement. Everyone makes value judgements every day. Furthermore, it is relatively meaningless by any kind of measure. The parents decided that they didn't want the teachers to use red anymore. Big fucking deal. That's just one more of the many arbitrary rules that make up every day of our existence. It may be stupid, but it's their decision to make, apparently, and all of you would be hard-pressed to demonstrate any kind of ill effects of a red ink ban. It seems ironic to me that a great many people in this thread are going out of their way to get offended by people whom they believe are going out of their way to get offended. In the nomenclature of the thread starter, you are all a bunch of pussies.

04-05-2005, 12:59 PM	#72 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	filtherton - perfect post

04-05-2005, 02:03 PM	#73 (permalink)
Cadwiz Insane Location: work	I think it's really sad that parent's only reaction to their kid being a moron is "don't use red ink on Johnny's paper". I personally couldn't care less what color is used. Befor long, purple will be associated with warping young minds, and will be discarded in favor of pink. I do forsee a time when they don't even grade papers anymore. Just give the whole class a gold star and a big group hug. That should get them ready for real life. __________________ Semper Fi

04-05-2005, 08:34 PM	#75 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	The idea of common sense only exists to help people who think they have it feel superior to anyone who may not share their perspective or knowledge on certain subjects. Until you can find one thing that every human agrees upon, there is no such thing as common sense in any kind of meaningful way.

04-05-2005, 09:23 PM	#76 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	I disagree Filth, there is such a thing as common sense. Saying there isn't, subscribing to some "great philosophical" "everything is a matter of perspective" is just for lack of a better word, retarded. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

04-06-2005, 08:27 AM	#78 (permalink)
gal Insane	Common sense to me is what a majority people in a geographical or social group percieve as sensible. I'd say 90% of the americans I've met share my perception of sensibility, but that is of course a biased group. I think part of the the problem in US with regard to loony lawsuits is that the US is a diverse nation where it's harder to define common sense. Also the deeply founded american idea of personal independence and freedom inherently recognizes that others may have very different personal beliefs. Anyway, it's pretty easy to mention examples of common sense within a group of people. For instance for the western world: Don't jump in front of moving cars Eating 10 BigMacs a day is unhealthy Don't use the hair dryer in the bath tub An 8-ball is not a pregnancy test For sun lotion to work, you have to apply it to the skin Loud farting at dinner parties is considered rude