sob

There it is. What I was going to say is that I believe anyone with sufficient desire can be a multimillionaire. However, most of us would have to give up a great many of life's pleasures to accomplish that. Things like friends, family, and leisure time. Ignoring kids in pursuit of wealth is a huge mistake, in my opinion. They're only small for a very short time, and you'd better enjoy it while you can.

Where I live, anyone who has owned their home for ten years or so is a millionaire, unless they've borrowed against it. I can definitely say that being a millionaire does not guarantee happiness. Furthermore, some of the most screwed-up kids I've seen were raised wealthy, and got whatever they thought they wanted. They're also quite unhappy.

So my advice would be not to assume you'll be happy by reaching your goal. Try to strike a balance, possibly by toning down your goals.

SF's post just seems senseless to me. "Everyone who makes more than I do must have cheated, is basically amoral, and should have their possessons taken away."

You can find other people of this mindset in the Politics board. Personally, I prefer to join the successful people, not to drag them down.

Charlatan

This is exactly right... economic systems are too complex when they get into the global scale. Pure theory will always break down... As with anything, the middle ground is where the truth is to be found...

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Pacifier

Yep, thats exactly the problem, and with this statement:

you're a perfect example.
Communism would work if everyone would give everything he can so that erveryone has everything he needs. But, like you're said, some people are greedy and will expoit such a system. Thats why they only work in smaller scales.

but the "humans are bad" fact will also bring capitalism down. Pro Capitalists always argue that if the industry is wealthy is will also benefit the "normal" people. But thats BS, cooperations are also "not basically good", they will do everything possible to maximise their profit. And that will result in the exploitation of the "working class".

I see big problem in the future, both extremes (communism and a "pure" free market capitalism) will not work. We need a controlled "social capitalism" (as free as possible, as controlled as necessary), but currently the cooperations are fighting, quite successfuly, any kind of control.

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"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

martinguerre

So much to say...but i think it's best to leave most of it be. Why do you think this is true? Are multimillionares really that common? Is the problem really just desire...and not that there are systemic problems in the distrobution of resources in america? You take the outliers, and seek to prove that they are the rule.

I have the opportunity....i was born in to a family that has money, i was given a good education as a kid, and that put me in top 25 liberal arts college. I will graduate near the top of my class, in part because i have been able to be a full time student and only work as a preceptor when it met my educational goals. I have applied to Yale for my M.Div, and if i so desired, i suspect i could continue on to Academia with no problems. I might not have multiple millions (depends on the book deal i guess), but i would certainly be in the priviledged classes.

Privledged. Not because it was fair, or because i was entitled to any of it. I'm part of the lucky sperm club, and i damn well know it.

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Lockjaw

At least I make no illusions that I'm not what everybody else is deep down.


There is a TON of things that work in small scales. That's why they tend not to work because they are small scale ideas and are faulty when they don't take into account the other variables. Capitalism works in a small scale. It's when you factor in the latent human greed and the inborn tendency to better one's position is when it fails.
BTW...I never said don't provide people with what they need. Just don't limit what other people can get based upon THEIR abilities which is what communism does.

And a communist set up is no different. Except instead of a bunch of little entities you can chose from those evil corporations all get smashed up into ONE entity the all powerful government that not only controls your finances,they control your health care,they control your security,they control your housing,they control your productivity. They OWN you. If you aren't happy with your place of employment...you leave. Not happy with your country? Where are you going to go if every country is like that? No where! So you either become a cog and feed the people who will inevitablely exploit the system or you exploit the system yourself. Personally if I get say 50% of what the person that works 40 hours gets then I'm not going to bust my butt to do it. I don't like to work. I like to read. So if you are going to feed,clothe, and house me and all I have to do is get up in the morning turn on my state provided TV, in my state provided apartment, eat my state provided breakfast,read the books paid for by my state provided money,when I get bored I can go to my state provided gym or state provided park,to hang out with all the other people who don't like to work. How does that make me bad? I'm simply doing what the system encourages. Do what you like to do and since there is pretty much nothing to drive me to work since all my basic needs are taken care of why not do just what I want to do?
And how is accepting the bare minimum being greedy?
I'm just taking what would be given to me. I'm helping the society by keeping the hell out of everyone's way and keeping the standards low so nobody will want to keep accumulating such evil things like material wealth.
They'll say...Hey look there's old man Mike! He's ok with the bare minimum and he's happy! You should take a lesson from him and stop trying to get more than your fellow citizens. Just make do with what you get and be happy. Everybody is the same and just because you make Stephen Hawking look like a blithering idiot doesn't mean you deserve magnitudes more than Jimmy Bobbysocks who didn't bother learning anything more than how to change spark plugs.
Listen I'd love a perfect world where people could do what they want get what they need and for there still to be innovation on the level of what we have now. But the reality of the situation is without competition there is NO innovation. Societies that were comfortable with their situation stagnated and they were passed up. Look at the aboriginal societies that have no concept of money and little to no concept of ownership. Most didn't really advance beyond very rudimentary technologies as all you realy NEED in life is food,shelter,and clothing. And most people I know don't really like the concept of just "surviving".

sob

In California, they're not unusual, due to land/housing values. I may not have made myself clear in that I consider a millionaire someone who has a net worth of $1,000,000. I don't mean they necessarily have it in cash.

So what? I know plenty of wealthy people who started out poor or middle class. Some enlisted in the service, and accumulated rental property over a career. Others started small businesses. Others sold real estate. One started an auto repair shop. Another was an electrician who worked in Saudi back when pay was high, taxes were low, and few were getting killed. A higher education is by no means required to accumulate wealth, but determination almost always is.

Now happiness is an entirely different story. One of those people did nothing but work. His family barely knew him, and he hardly ever smiled. I don't consider that a price worth paying.

Note that the ways I pointed out are honest (at least I think they were). For other people, committing drug crimes is not too great a price to pay for wealth.

I guess I'll phrase it another way: You show me someone who isn't a millionaire by 50 or so, and given enough of their history, I'll point out the areas where they made a choice that interfered with wealth accumulation. Or point out someone from the same station in life who became wealthy.

I'm not by any means saying that the person's personal choices were wrong, but that they impeded wealth accumulation. On the other hand, they may have brought the person happiness.

That applies to rich and poor alike.

martinguerre

you want to continue the discussion by counter example...and they will disprove a rule, but they won't disprove a trend.

there's about 5 neighborhoods that supply most of the future residents of sing sing prison in new york. 5. It's not about people making rational choices about wealth aquisition. IMO, it's about the systemic problems that leave people out in the cold. yes, there are sucess stories from those places. But when the current is that strong, only a few get out alive. Personally, i think that's wrong. It's also wasteful-taxes pay tens of thousands of dollars a year to incarerate when a fraction of the money could have paid for educational opportunities...

your posting seems to state that the system, on balance, is fair. i don't buy that.

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

BigBen

No, I do not get bent out of shape with semantics, but:

No one wants millions of dollars. It is heavy paper. It smells funny. It can get stolen. It accrues no interest.

People want to have the BUYING POWER that millions of dollars gives. Having the budget line intersect with higher marginal utility curves is what it is all about. Ask a communist (or socialist) if they would be willing to work harder to make life easier for the group... They are then stating that the warm feeling they get from providing for others is increased UTILITY. That goes against thier motto of producing according to wants and consuming according to needs...

Anyhoo, without sounding completely crazy I will finish with this:

Would I like an unlimited consumption possibility frontier? Fuck yeah.

Ethically, I always ensure that my wealth is socially optimum: I do not hurt anyone, or take anything that is not properly earned through my land, labour or capital. I happily pay taxes and sleep warmly at night knowing that the socialists in government are taking care of those who need it, using economies of scale.

Sorry. I probably sound crazy. At least I don't sound COMPLETELY CRAZY.

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Aladdin Sane

Freedom hangs from a weak thread, and it is protected from the Gulag and the Killing Fields by two things: private guns and private property. The utopian true believers always steal them first, for "the good of the community," of course.

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BoomTruck

I wouldn't mind being rich.

But really, all I want to do is work hard, earn everything I get, and someday soon be able to look anyone square in the eye and say "Kiss my ass", because I will owe nothing to anyone.

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