CANADA!! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

MacGuyver · 12-01-2004, 09:24 PM

So awhile ago, I was reading this article...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html
(which I also saw in Tilted Politics recently)

...and I was thinking to myself... "I wonder if this is really true, that the Canadians are urging each other to take Americans into thier homes and what not..."

So for all of you North of the border... whats up? How's it goin up there? Hows the weather? Will you take me into your home? Will one of you beautiful Canadian women to marry me so I can move to Canada? Pretty please? I envy you...

sadistikdreams · 12-01-2004, 09:33 PM

for you who dont click links.

Quote:

Canadians open arms to Americans

SEATTLE, Washington (AP) -- Rudi Kischer wants to help those Americans who have the post-election blues after U.S. President George W. Bush's second-term victory.

The Vancouver, British Columbia, immigration lawyer plans seminars in three U.S. cities -- Seattle, San Francisco and Los Angeles -- to tell Americans frustrated with Bush's re-election that the grass is greener north of the border.

And that's not just an allusion to Canada's lenient marijuana laws.

"We started last year getting a lot of calls from Americans dissatisfied with the way the country is going," Kischer says. "Then after the election, it's been crazy up here. The Canadian immigration Web site had 115,000 hits the day after the election -- from the U.S. alone. We usually only get 20,000 hits."

There was so much interest that a Vancouver-based Internet company, Communicopia, set up a new Web site this month -- www.canadianalternative.com -- to suggest Canada as a viable option for its American clients, including anyone concerned about constitutional bans on gay marriage passed in 11 U.S. states this month.

"We invite you to get to know Canada," the site says. "Explore the richness and diversity of our regions. And find out why Canada is the perfect alternative for conscientious, forward-thinking Americans."

Another Web site urges Canadians: "Open your heart, and your home. Marry an American. Legions of Canadians have already pledged to sacrifice their singlehood to save our southern neighbours from four more years of cowboy conservatism."

Canada suddenly has utopian appeal for many left-leaning Americans. Its universal health care, gay rights, abortion rights, gun-control laws, drug laws, opposition to the Iraq war, ban on capital punishment and ethnic diversity mirror many values of the American left.

Immigrants, including an estimated 1 million Americans, make up nearly 20 percent of Canada's population. The United Nations named Toronto the world's most multicultural city.

And, as Michael Moore pointed out in "Bowling for Columbine" -- required viewing for many lefties -- in Canada there's apparently no reason to lock your door.

On the other hand, it's cold. The baseball's not very good -- so long, Expos. And the taxes are higher, eh?

But, as one American who has his bags nearly packed likes to say, at least the taxes go toward good causes.

"I just like their way of life a lot better, and with everything the Bush administration has done -- for the American people to give him their seal of approval, it's basically the last straw," says Ralph Appoldt, a resident of Portland, in Oregon, a state that narrowly supported Democrat John Kerry for president.

"Canada's basic population is much more intelligent, polite and civilized,"Appoldt said. "I like their way of government a lot better. Their tax dollars go to helping those who need it, instead of funneling money back up to the wealthy and feeding this huge military-industrial machine."

Appoldt, 50, a sales manager, and his wife, a nurse, figure that selling their house and getting their immigration approved could take more than a year. But they're moving, they insist. They've already hired Kischer to help them.

Though he may see a good business opportunity following the election, Kischer has no illusions of a mass American exodus to Canada.

Americans have to follow the same procedures as everybody else -- including the $500 (387 euro) application fee, the $975 (755 euro) landing tax, and the wait of six months to two years.

He only expects about 100 people at each of the how-to-move-to-Canada seminars, all scheduled in Democratic-leaning areas -- December 4 in Seattle, December 5 in Los Angeles and December 6 in San Francisco.

Nancy Bray, a spokeswoman for Citizenship and Immigration Canada, said her agency's Web site received 261,000 hits from the United States in the two days following the election, but it'll be many months before officials can guess how many of them were serious.

"Our interest, our goal, is to attract the best possible immigrants," Bray says. "If there's a lot of publicity about our country, that's to our benefit. But we're not interested in people's political leanings or political dissatisfaction."

Jason Mogus, Communicopia's chief executive, said that while his company wanted to help interested Americans, moving to Canada should be plan B.

"We strongly encourage Americans to stay and build a culture in line with their values," Mogus said. "In other words, stay and fight."

MacGuyver · 12-01-2004, 09:55 PM

hmmm.... good call sadistikdreams

jizzmasterp · 12-01-2004, 11:10 PM

At least where I am living, no one discusses this topic. We moreso like to poke fun at the stupid things Bush says.

MacGuyver · 12-02-2004, 04:13 AM

Oh believe me we do that too. I just wish I could do it from the country thats north of the one he is 'in charge of'.

Fly · 12-02-2004, 05:05 AM

hey.........come on up guys.......we're bigger AND on top eh.

weeeeeeeeeeeeeee...........

*and the beer is better too*

Daoust · 12-02-2004, 05:40 AM

Carolyn Parris went on Wolf Blitzer the other day and got hammered by Blitzer's Canada hating co-host. Totally crapped on Canada. I am not expecting a mass northern exodus anytime soon from our American friends. It's too cold up here, and the CFL is just too hard to like. They couldn't handle our beer, and they'd call our smokes wimpy. Eventually they'd become just as frustrated with our powerless liberal government as they are with their 'big stick' government in Washington. The grass is better, but not necessarily greener.

Rodney · 12-02-2004, 07:16 AM

The way I figure it, the U.S. doesn't have much farther to go down its current path until it crashes, bigtime. We're running on credit cards, both as a nation and as individuals; so it's inevitable.

At that point, we'll either pick up the pieces and make a more socialist goverment and downsize the military we can no longer afford; or, the nation will fracture regionally along red/blue lines, and some of the states will ask to join with you all up the great white north.

So hey -- don't just talk about individuals coming to Canada. How'd all you winterbound Canucks like to adopt 1000 miles of beautiful California coastline? And the 30 million people who come with it? I'll bet Oregon and Washington would come, too!

vox_rox · 12-02-2004, 08:22 AM

Well, I never heard of this initiative, but as far as I'm concerned, you're all welcome to make the trek. I know if I was American, Canada would look way better right now, but don't think that getting away from Bush by moving to Canada is the path to enlightenment. Liek someone else already said, it's different, but not necessarily better. Here's my short list of reasons, pro and con:

Our beer is better. Period. Not the big breweries necessarily, but the unbiquitous and excellent microbrew cannot be beat.
It's colder than most of the USA, except some of the northern stated, so be warned. Also, shorter daylight hours in the winter, so if you suffer from SAD (seasonal affective disorder) think twice.
Taxes are higher, pay is lower, but we have universal free medicare, but you may have to pick up the tab for prescriptions if you're not on a plan.
We have a national government that actually does nothing. I'm not saying that they are ineffective, or powerless. I'm saying they do nothing. They bikcer, they argue, they pretend to talk about policy, but then they do nothing. That will be a shock for you.
We have the CBC. Some say it's a blessing (me for instance), some say it's a curse. Either way, we have the CBC.
We have human rights. Really. Gays can marry, you can expect privacy, you can have dissenting opinions about the government without fear. Michael Moore says you don't have to lock you doors, but I think most of us do. Funny that.
We have about the same number of guns per capita, but most of them are hunting rifles and shotguns, and we use them to hunt. Animals. We find shooting firearms at each other distasteful and painful, so we don't.
Our football has only three downs and two (yes TWO) fifty yard lines. No metric in football yet, but gives us time, we can fuck that up too.
We talk about hockey. A lot. We love hockey. We miss hockey. Mmmm, hockey.
Some things here happen in French, some things happen in both English and French. That's because both of these languages are official languages. That's right, official!

So, if you still want to make the trek, come on up. Just leave your hand guns at the border, take your attitude down a couple of notches (we're not big on smack downs, we'd would rather talk it out), and we kinda like everyone, so you might have to as well.

Good Luck.

Peace,

Pierre
(note the French name)

Yakk · 12-02-2004, 09:19 AM

About 43.4% of the US economy is government spending and/or health care related.
About 43.0% of the Canadian economy is government spending and/or health care related.

8% of Canada's work force is unemployed, in the army, or in jail.
8% of USA's work force is umemployed, in the army, or in jail.

Wealth disparity in Canada is less than the USA. The ratio of the wealth of the top 20% to the bottom 20% is less in Canada than in the USA. Practically, this goes alot towards explaining our low murder rates.

Canada's average divorce rate (per capita) is lower than the divorce rate of the American state with the lowest divorce rate. This is mostly, but not completely, because our marriage rates are also much lower than American rates.

The Canadian Federal government really does nothing. It is mostly a large accounting organization that distributes tax money to the provinces to spend. The provinces quite strongly argue for getting the money with no strings attached. (In the USA, the Federal government requires, say, speed limits on roads and a 21+ drinking age in order for a state to recieve federal highway funds.) At the same time, the Canadian Federal Government does alot, including a tonne of funding for our nice universal health care system.

When you go to a doctor, you hand them your health card, fill out a form that says why you are there, and then get treated. There is between 3 and 10+ times less paperwork involved (based off the % of GDP Canada and the USA spends on health care paperwork).

Perscriptions cost money. Less money than in the USA, but they aren't free. Health coverage from the company you work for tends to be prescriptions, dental, vision, life insurance, travel and hospital room upgrade coverage.

The main use of the Canadian military overseas is peacekeeping. They go into an area where both sides don't want to fight anymore, stand there with big targets on their heads, and say "stop it" "no really, stop it", and carry big guns. In general, Canadian military gear is technologically backwards, but our training tends to be ... quite competative. Our active duty military, on a per-capita basis, something like half the size of the American military.

Canada exports oil and energy. Canada exports more than it imports. Our Federal government is running a surplus, and paying down the debt. Our politics are currently consensis-based (it takes at least 2 parties agreement to pass a piece of government legistlation). There are 4 political parties in our rough equivilent of your "congress" (left, center, right+regional, regional).

Fly · 12-02-2004, 09:54 AM

........best pot in the world too..........cleeeeeeaaaaaannnnnnnnnn.........

angeltek · 12-02-2004, 11:46 AM

a point about the army. there was a documentary I was watching a few years ago, where they sent 10 Navy Seals to canada to participate in the basic training. Only 1 was able to make it through.

VitaminH · 12-02-2004, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodney

I'll bet Oregon and Washington would come, too!

Don't forget about us northern Midwesters, not to metion New England.

portereight · 12-02-2004, 12:38 PM

Whenever the topic of American moving to Canada comes up it seems that many americans either can't even entertain the concept of anyone on the planet not wanting to be an American, or they get their backs up and start flinging insults. Is it just me or is this sort of reaction uniquely American? No one in canada or europe seems to gets their panties in a twist when people emigrate from our countries.
Americans are quick to recognize their immigrant roots, and the desire to move to a land of opportunity free of persecution, yet this topic never goes unchallenged with the trite "if you were a real american you'd stay and fight". Sadly this is often followed by a variation of "don't let the door hit you on the way out"

Yakk · 12-03-2004, 10:19 AM

Don't be fooled by the bluestate/redstate maps.

It is city vs non-city.

Every single city in the entire USA with a population over half a million voted Democratic (at least 50% Democratic presidential votes).

Janey · 12-03-2004, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daoust

Carolyn Parris went on Wolf Blitzer the other day and got hammered by Blitzer's Canada hating co-host. Totally crapped on Canada. I am not expecting a mass northern exodus anytime soon from our American friends. It's too cold up here, and the CFL is just too hard to like. They couldn't handle our beer, and they'd call our smokes wimpy. Eventually they'd become just as frustrated with our powerless liberal government as they are with their 'big stick' government in Washington. The grass is better, but not necessarily greener.

I saw that pathetic attempt at journalism. And I was appalled at CNN, it sorely lacks credibility in my books now. Actually, even though I'm not a supporter of Carolyn Parrish and her run-on mouth, I admit that she neatly turned the tables on that idiotic, self satisfied miserable attempt at humour co-host. For once she came out smelling like roses, while he sounded trite, sophomoric and unprofessional.

ps. the CFL is NOT too hard to like. It's actually more likeable than the 4 down version. Now with the new found popularity, maybe we'll get a team on the east coast, and more fans attending games... Make them more of an event...

billege · 12-03-2004, 10:42 AM

Granted, Canada has a smaller total population number as there are uninsured Americans. So, we're not talking about equivialent size populations by a longshot.

From what I've seen in my trips through Canada, it's also not as diverse population as the US. But, on that point, I have no statistics, and may be horribley wrong. Please correct me with data I'm too lazy to look up, if indeed I am. I'm relating that while in London, Niagra Falls, and Toronto (great city, BTW) the only non-whites I saw (besides my wife) were in Toronto. I also got some odd looks when I requested my meat cooked medium rare. In Canada it seems, they ain't down with that. You'd have thought I asked the waitress for anal sex right there at the table from her response to my reqeust for a rare steak. The fucker came medium well, btw. One strike for Canada there...

I spent some time while up there watching Canadian news channels, and I got the distinct impression Canadians look upon the US from a "slightly smarter big brother" kind of view point. Like, "oh look at what our big dumb little brother did today! isn't he cute? dumb, but we love him." That's what I sorta picked up on, I'd be interested in honest unpolished Canadian views on the real Canadian attitude towards the US.

I think comparing the Canadian to the American socieity is a stupid-on-its-face comparison. There is no way to directly compare thier society with ours. I mean, sure there are places where a comparison can be made, but the two countries are very different. One is the worlds dominant superpower, with all the shit that comes with that. The other is not the worlds dominant superpower. The two countries are very close, sure, and carry a lot of similarities, but give it a rest. Deciding that another country is a better place for you to live, is a valid decision. Deciding to flee your home country for another, because you erroniously belive they've got it all figured out...that's what you get from not really considering the reality of the situation.

Absconding to Canada because one does not like the way the US is heading, is cowardace, and a kind of treason.

(Remember, you're free in the USA to HAVE your opinion, and so am I. I say fleeing is a shitty opinion. So say I. So shall it be.)

Rats flee a sinking ship.

Heros fix the hole in the ship, pump out the water, get the crew to help fix the sails and rudder, then go off into the sunset to fuck the prom queen!!

Long live the USA! Battered, bruised, and twisting herself through an evolution in society she may be, but she's not out of it, and damn those who abandon her as if she is!!

skier · 12-03-2004, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Absconding to Canada because one does not like the way the US is heading, is cowardace, and a kind of treason.

(Remember, you're free in the USA to HAVE your opinion, and so am I. I say fleeing is a shitty opinion. So say I. So shall it be.)

Rats flee a sinking ship.

Heros fix the hole in the ship, pump out the water, get the crew to help fix the sails and rudder, then go off into the sunset to fuck the prom queen!!

Long live the USA! Battered, bruised, and twisting herself through an evolution in society she may be, but she's not out of it, and damn those who abandon her as if she is!!

The only heros are the ones who survive. What if your main mast is broken and nobody can fix it? How many weeks on the sea will you remain before your resources are eaten, used up? Things will quickly get worse after that. The weaker perish, the strong feed on the weak. And then how are you much different than rats?

vox_rox · 12-03-2004, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janey

I saw that pathetic attempt at journalism. And I was appalled at CNN, it sorely lacks credibility in my books now. Actually, even though I'm not a supporter of Carolyn Parrish and her run-on mouth, I admit that she neatly turned the tables on that idiotic, self satisfied miserable attempt at humour co-host. For once she came out smelling like roses, while he sounded trite, sophomoric and unprofessional.

I completely agree on this one. CNN, by providing time for a clearly unknowledgable journalist to throw around juvenile rants about a country which he knows nothing about is, quite frankly, irresponsible.

I do not know whether or not Americans may have found it humourous or not, but in the final analysis, it was the Canadian politician that ended up looking smart and even humble while sticking to her guns and maintaining a strong posture.

It is sad that CNN would allow Americans to be presented by such a ridiculous and one-dimensional loud-mouth, and even Blitzer, who I have some respect for, only looks more tarnished for his part in this absolutely pathetic segment.

Is this the state of American journalism? Are you, as a nation, so tired of covering real news and politics that making fun of Canada now reliably substitutes for actual journalism? Everytime I see the American news machine at work, I thank my lucky stars once again that I am not emersed in that pathetic sub-culture, and that, with my dog-sledding talents intact, along with my own realization that Canada is 1000 times the country that the USA could ever fantasize about being, I live above the 49th parallel.

Peace,

Pierre

billege · 12-03-2004, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vox_rox

..............with my own realization that Canada is 1000 times the country that the USA could ever fantasize about being, I live above the 49th parallel.

Peace,

Pierre

Well, that's a pretty troll like statement to make. I'm glad you're proud of your country, but I'd add that someone from a society 1000 times better than mine should be able to show that pride, without having to do it by putting the other one down. Maybe, you should re-think your math.

I stopped making myself feel better by putting others down in, say, 9th grade. I'd suggest not ruining a good post by adding baseless putdowns like that at the end.

Ananas · 12-03-2004, 11:36 AM

Quote:

I also got some odd looks when I requested my meat cooked medium rare. In Canada it seems, they ain't down with that. You'd have thought I asked the waitress for anal sex right there at the table from her response to my reqeust for a rare steak. The fucker came medium well, btw. One strike for Canada there...

Mad cow disease concern.

Quote:

Absconding to Canada because one does not like the way the US is heading, is cowardace, and a kind of treason.

Rats flee a sinking ship.

Heros fix the hole in the ship, pump out the water, get the crew to help fix the sails and rudder, then go off into the sunset to fuck the prom queen!!

Which country did your ancestors abandon (oops, I meant immigrate from)? I'm sure they made some heroic effort to keep the old country's ship afloat for a while, but maybe they realized that they were taking on more water than they could pump out?

Yakk · 12-03-2004, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Billege typed:
From what I've seen in my trips through Canada, it's also not as diverse population as the US. But, on that point, I have no statistics, and may be horribley wrong.

Strange. Canada's "percent of population who are immigrants" is higher than the USA.

In 2001, 18.4% of Canada's population was foreign-born.
26.8% of Ontario's population.
43.7% of Toronto's population.

The USA has about a 11% foreign-born population.

Quote:

Please correct me with data I'm too lazy to look up, if indeed I am. I'm relating that while in London, Niagra Falls, and Toronto (great city, BTW) the only non-whites I saw (besides my wife) were in Toronto.

17.8% Niagra Falls
18.8% London.

Admittedly, none of these are race-based. These are immigration based.

Immigration:
4.3% from USA
5.5% Central/South America
5.4% Carribean/Bermuda
11.1% UK
9.1% Other N+W Europe
8.7% East Europe
13.1% South Europe
5.2% Africa
5.2% Middle East+W+Central Asia
13.4% E Asia
8.6% SE Asia
9.2% S Asia
1.0% Oceana + Other
http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/demo24a.htm

Or, grouped:
15.2% from Americas+Carribean
11.1% from UK
30.9% from Europe
5.2% from Africa
36.4% from Asia and Middle East
1.0% from Oceana and Other

The USA itself is 75.1% White, 12.3% Black, 1.0% Abriginal, 3.6% Asian, 5.5% other, 2.4% double-raced
Independantly, 12.5% is Hispanic/Latino

Canada is. hmm. With overlap: (you where allowed to report as many as you liked)
39.4% Canadian
20.2% English
15.8% French
14.0% Scottish
12.9% Irish
9.2% German
4.2% Italian
3.6% Chinese
3.6% Ukrainian
3.3% Aboriginal
3.1% Dutch
2.7% Polish
2.4% East Indian
1.2% Norwegian
1.2% Portuguese
1.2% Welsh
1.2% Jewish
1.1% Russian
1.1% Filipino
1.0% Metis
1.0% Swedish
0.9% Hungarian (Magyar)
0.8% American
0.7% Greek
0.7% Spanish
0.7% Jamacian
0.6% Danish
0.5% Vietnamese
http://www.statcan.ca/english/Pgdb/demo26a.htm
17% of the population reported being a Canadian-Something
21% of the population had multiple ethnic origins, not counting the above 17%.

CIA world factbook says:
British Isles origin 28%, French origin 23%, other European 15%, Amerindian 2%, other, mostly Asian, African, Arab 6%, mixed background 26%

Randomly, Canada is 44% Roman Catholic, 29% Protestant, 16.5% no religion, 4.3% other Christian, 3% Other Abrahamite, 3.3% Other

USA is 52% Protestant, 24% Catholic, 10% None, 2% Mormon, 1% Jewish, 1% Muslim, 10% Other

Quote:

I also got some odd looks when I requested my meat cooked medium rare. In Canada it seems, they ain't down with that.

Maybe it was your accent. ;-)

Quote:

You'd have thought I asked the waitress for anal sex right there at the table from her response to my reqeust for a rare steak. The fucker came medium well, btw. One strike for Canada there...

From what I can tell, non-steak houses up the cookedness of meat by one category up here.

A medium at The Keg (or a finer steakhouse) and a medium-rare at random restaurants are cooked to about the same amount.

Quote:

Granted, Canada has a smaller total population number as there are uninsured Americans. So, we're not talking about equivialent size populations by a longshot.

Hell, the USA spends more on health insurance paperwork than Canada spends on all of our government put together. (this says more about the amount of paperwork than the size of the Canadian government! ...The same can be said about the number of uninsured American's.)

Quote:

Absconding to Canada because one does not like the way the US is heading, is cowardace, and a kind of treason.

Then, 99% of Americans' ancestors where traitors? Oh wait, I forgot about slavery and conquest -- make that 80%. ;-)

Leaving a country under the control of a government that wants to persecute you for your political stance, moral beliefs, or lifestyle isn't treason[1]. It's not being an idiot. It's moving on to the land of the free, and the home of the brave. A chance to build a future for yourself and your children you can be proud of.

Canada's current largest labour shortage is skilled tradesfolk. Plumbers, mechanics and the like -- being an experienced plumber is nearly as good as being a doctor, as far as Canada's current immigration needs. Work experience and other forms of education are also valuable.

[1] Do you like drugs? The USA has declaired war on you, in case you haven't noticed. Like looking at pornography? Ever hear of the war on porn? Ashcroft was kicking it off when 9-11 happened, and he found an actual evil to attack. Having sex outside of wedlock? Contraceptives? And guess what administrative official has stated that people who don't believe in God are not Real Americans?

Scorps · 12-03-2004, 11:46 AM

I havn't even heard of that untill now......hummm more Americans to piss me off great...not that all of you are assholes but the ones I have met are!

MacGuyver · 12-03-2004, 12:14 PM

*dodges Yakk's flying statistics*

Wow, Canada is cooler than I even had an idea of. I thought Canada was cool before, but now... jeez that was alot of stats.

"'Cause knowledge is power!"

Averett · 12-03-2004, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billege

Rats flee a sinking ship.

Heros fix the hole in the ship, pump out the water, get the crew to help fix the sails and rudder, then go off into the sunset to fuck the prom queen!!

Long live the USA! Battered, bruised, and twisting herself through an evolution in society she may be, but she's not out of it, and damn those who abandon her as if she is!!

If America's ancestors had this opinion, then the vast majority of us wouldn't be here.

You do remember the reason why the Pilgrims came here in the first place, don't you?

Janey · 12-03-2004, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billege

Granted, Canada has a smaller total population number as there are uninsured Americans. So, we're not talking about equivialent size populations by a longshot.

From what I've seen in my trips through Canada, it's also not as diverse population as the US. But, on that point, I have no statistics, and may be horribley wrong. Please correct me with data I'm too lazy to look up, if indeed I am. I'm relating that while in London, Niagra Falls, and Toronto (great city, BTW) the only non-whites I saw (besides my wife) were in Toronto. I also got some odd looks when I requested my meat cooked medium rare. In Canada it seems, they ain't down with that. You'd have thought I asked the waitress for anal sex right there at the table from her response to my reqeust for a rare steak. The fucker came medium well, btw. One strike for Canada there...

I spent some time while up there watching Canadian news channels, and I got the distinct impression Canadians look upon the US from a "slightly smarter big brother" kind of view point. Like, "oh look at what our big dumb little brother did today! isn't he cute? dumb, but we love him." That's what I sorta picked up on, I'd be interested in honest unpolished Canadian views on the real Canadian attitude towards the US.

I think comparing the Canadian to the American socieity is a stupid-on-its-face comparison. There is no way to directly compare thier society with ours. I mean, sure there are places where a comparison can be made, but the two countries are very different. One is the worlds dominant superpower, with all the shit that comes with that. The other is not the worlds dominant superpower. The two countries are very close, sure, and carry a lot of similarities, but give it a rest. Deciding that another country is a better place for you to live, is a valid decision. Deciding to flee your home country for another, because you erroniously belive they've got it all figured out...that's what you get from not really considering the reality of the situation.

Absconding to Canada because one does not like the way the US is heading, is cowardace, and a kind of treason.

(Remember, you're free in the USA to HAVE your opinion, and so am I. I say fleeing is a shitty opinion. So say I. So shall it be.)

Rats flee a sinking ship.

Heros fix the hole in the ship, pump out the water, get the crew to help fix the sails and rudder, then go off into the sunset to fuck the prom queen!!

Long live the USA! Battered, bruised, and twisting herself through an evolution in society she may be, but she's not out of it, and damn those who abandon her as if she is!!

I have to agree with you on your sentiments, as it does seem to be rather fruitless to be comparing our two societies ad nauseum, to the point of trying to make one better than the other. I think that the distinction is too fine to make. I was born here, and I love my country.

My heritage is not of this country, but in this I am also typically canadian. My parents are from China, but both my grandfathers were Canadian citizens, and helped to build the National Dream (thanks to the Late Pierre Berton and his book on the railroad).

But I still go into restaurants in towns like London, Kingston, Whitby, where people openly gape at me because i look chinese. It is only in Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal that I actually feel anonymous in my skin. Did you ever see a western movie where the gunslinger walks into a saloon, and the music stops? everybody turns and looks at him? This is literally what has happened to me (recently at the Denny's in Whitby) sans the piano player tho. So while we are a hugely multicultural country, make no mistake, the majority is white. You only have to drive for an hour to get to it. Yet, the tolerance here is incredible when stacked up against international standards (turks in Germany, blacks in china, whites in Japan, women just about everywhere).

Oh, i like my steak like my sushi (Tartar...) but i order blue rare, and usually get it. I've orderd Filet Mignon Pittsburgh style, and usually get it done correctly.

ps.. Vox, you were on track until that crack about the 49th parallel... I live at the 42 parallel dude. lol but seriously, Bilg has a point in his rebuttal....

vox_rox · 12-03-2004, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billege

Well, that's a pretty troll like statement to make. I'm glad you're proud of your country, but I'd add that someone from a society 1000 times better than mine should be able to show that pride, without having to do it by putting the other one down. Maybe, you should re-think your math.

I stopped making myself feel better by putting others down in, say, 9th grade. I'd suggest not ruining a good post by adding baseless putdowns like that at the end.

Then...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janey

ps.. Vox, you were on track until that crack about the 49th parallel... I live at the 42 parallel dude. lol but seriously, Bilg has a point in his rebuttal....

Yup, I'm the loser, and I apologize. My rant went off track because of my extreme lack of respect of the American MEDIA, not Americans in general, and I see now that I clearly went too far. I am not a troll, and I do not mean to bait people, but sometimes my fingers type faster than my internal editor can correcct, and I will have to hit "Preview Post" more in the future which will allow me to me more reasonable and level in the future.

However, things to note:
1) The parallel changes depending on where you live. Pellee Island, for example, is on approxiamtely the Same parallel as San Fran.

2) Canada is better than the U.S., I say that as a Canadian just as you would say the same thing about the U.S. as an american. The exact ration of how much better (1,000 X?) is debateable as well, but this would be VERY difficult to but a quantitative measure on.

3) I still stand by my assesment of the American media machine, but that is also my personal judgement. However, if anyone, even Americans, take a critical look at the mass media in that country, there can be no doubt that there are serious flaws and rather deep xenophobic undercurrents running through much of it. I know that this will not be a poplular assessment, but again it is only my opinion based on watching too much television, much of it American.

So, again, let me say that I apologize for blatantly baiting Americans, it truly was not my intention. I stand here humbled, and I am truly apologetic.

Peace,

Pierre

Yakk · 12-03-2004, 01:48 PM

Whoot, more stats!

US Foreign-born population:
Miami: 60.6%
Santa Ana, Calif: 48.4%
Los Angeles: 41.3%
NYC: 36% Foreign-born

California: 26.9% Foreign-born
NYS: 20.9% Foreign-born
Mississippi: 1.1%

Sources: 30% from Mexico, 22% from elsewhere in Latin America, 27% from Asia, 15% from Europe

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/census...oreignborn.htm

How do you define diversity?
Los Angeles has about the same foreign-born percentage as Toronto, but most of them come from the same place (Mexico). Does this mean LA is more or less diverse than Toronto?

There are 3 cities in the USA larger than Toronto[2] : Chicago, Los Angeles and New York City. All of them have a lower foreign-born %. Two cities in the USA have a larger foreign-born percentage: Miami and Santa Ana.

[2] yet another fact that I doublt most non-Canadians know. =)

Psycho Dad · 12-03-2004, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacGuyver

Oh believe me we do that too. I just wish I could do it from the country thats north of the one he is 'in charge of'.

You are going to find that this is going to going on for quite some time. Even were Bush to say "OK, OK, let Kerry have the Whitehouse", the rest of the world won't start running around with [WE <3 the USA] posters.

And even at that, shows like The Daily show will find something to poke fun at Kerry with. It is just that with Bush, his way of speaking is what they target because unlike Clinton, he hasn't been diddling interns.

The real problem within the borders of this country have more to do with the actions of a society that wants to blame their problems on "who is in charge" more than with "who is in charge".

splck · 12-03-2004, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billege

(Remember, you're free in the USA to HAVE your opinion, and so am I. I say fleeing is a shitty opinion. So say I. So shall it be.)

You say that as if Americans are the only ones free to have an opinion. Is this the case?

Quote:

Originally Posted by billege

Long live the USA! Battered, bruised, and twisting herself through an evolution in society she may be, but she's not out of it, and damn those who abandon her as if she is!!

I'm sure there are many who feel "she is out of it", but that's only my opinion

billege · 12-03-2004, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by splck

You say that as if Americans are the only ones free to have an opinion. Is this the case?

I'm sure there are many who feel "she is out of it", but that's only my opinion

Nope, didn't mean it that way. I just listed the country 'cause, well, I'm there, so I did. I didn't think about it that much when I typed that part.

Many do feel so. Heck, sometimes I feel like I'm inside the fall of the Roman empire. It can be a shitty feeling.

As to my ancestors leaving Europe, and them being rats and all...

I understand they left for religious freedom and, well, if we're honest, profit was involved at some point. Then just about right after they got here, they set up a system of thier OWN religious persecution. I'm not real proud of that. Some years later, America was formed. Good job there. But, bad, bad from displacing and killing and trying to convert millions of Indians. Not much to be proud of there. Really, my ancestors in America can make a pretty shitty example of what not to do. The comparison falls apart too. The pilgrims left one country do develop new society in a new land, that they took over. Americans leaving to Canada hopefully won't take it over.

I like Canadians well enough. I've only met a few on my travels there, and they seemed very nice. I can't say I'd bail on America just yet, because I think she can be saved. Unless, of course, we completely destroy ourselves first. I guess time will tell.

12-01-2004, 09:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
MacGuyver You're going to have to trust me! Location: Massachusetts	CANADA!! So awhile ago, I was reading this article... http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americ....ap/index.html (which I also saw in Tilted Politics recently) ...and I was thinking to myself... "I wonder if this is really true, that the Canadians are urging each other to take Americans into thier homes and what not..." So for all of you North of the border... whats up? How's it goin up there? Hows the weather? Will you take me into your home? Will one of you beautiful Canadian women to marry me so I can move to Canada? Pretty please? I envy you... __________________ We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit. ---Aristotle Deeds, not words, shall speak [for] me. ---John Fletcher Last edited by MacGuyver; 12-01-2004 at 09:36 PM..

12-01-2004, 09:55 PM	#3 (permalink)
MacGuyver You're going to have to trust me! Location: Massachusetts	hmmm.... good call sadistikdreams __________________ We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit. ---Aristotle Deeds, not words, shall speak [for] me. ---John Fletcher

12-01-2004, 11:10 PM	#4 (permalink)
jizzmasterp Insane	At least where I am living, no one discusses this topic. We moreso like to poke fun at the stupid things Bush says. __________________ Don't mind the name. It was chosen before I discovered that there were forums that didn't start with "Titty."

12-02-2004, 04:13 AM	#5 (permalink)
MacGuyver You're going to have to trust me! Location: Massachusetts	Oh believe me we do that too. I just wish I could do it from the country thats north of the one he is 'in charge of'. __________________ We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit. ---Aristotle Deeds, not words, shall speak [for] me. ---John Fletcher

12-02-2004, 05:05 AM	#6 (permalink)
Fly see the links to my music? Location: Beautiful British Columbia	hey.........come on up guys.......we're bigger AND on top eh. weeeeeeeeeeeeeee........... and the beer is better too __________________ BASTARD SterlingStudios

12-02-2004, 05:40 AM	#7 (permalink)
Daoust "I'm sorry. What was the question?" Location: Paradise Regained	Carolyn Parris went on Wolf Blitzer the other day and got hammered by Blitzer's Canada hating co-host. Totally crapped on Canada. I am not expecting a mass northern exodus anytime soon from our American friends. It's too cold up here, and the CFL is just too hard to like. They couldn't handle our beer, and they'd call our smokes wimpy. Eventually they'd become just as frustrated with our powerless liberal government as they are with their 'big stick' government in Washington. The grass is better, but not necessarily greener. __________________ I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

12-02-2004, 07:16 AM	#8 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	The way I figure it, the U.S. doesn't have much farther to go down its current path until it crashes, bigtime. We're running on credit cards, both as a nation and as individuals; so it's inevitable. At that point, we'll either pick up the pieces and make a more socialist goverment and downsize the military we can no longer afford; or, the nation will fracture regionally along red/blue lines, and some of the states will ask to join with you all up the great white north. So hey -- don't just talk about individuals coming to Canada. How'd all you winterbound Canucks like to adopt 1000 miles of beautiful California coastline? And the 30 million people who come with it? I'll bet Oregon and Washington would come, too!

12-02-2004, 08:22 AM	#9 (permalink)
vox_rox Psycho Location: Comfy Little Bungalow	Well, I never heard of this initiative, but as far as I'm concerned, you're all welcome to make the trek. I know if I was American, Canada would look way better right now, but don't think that getting away from Bush by moving to Canada is the path to enlightenment. Liek someone else already said, it's different, but not necessarily better. Here's my short list of reasons, pro and con: Our beer is better. Period. Not the big breweries necessarily, but the unbiquitous and excellent microbrew cannot be beat. It's colder than most of the USA, except some of the northern stated, so be warned. Also, shorter daylight hours in the winter, so if you suffer from SAD (seasonal affective disorder) think twice. Taxes are higher, pay is lower, but we have universal free medicare, but you may have to pick up the tab for prescriptions if you're not on a plan. We have a national government that actually does nothing. I'm not saying that they are ineffective, or powerless. I'm saying they do nothing. They bikcer, they argue, they pretend to talk about policy, but then they do nothing. That will be a shock for you. We have the CBC. Some say it's a blessing (me for instance), some say it's a curse. Either way, we have the CBC. We have human rights. Really. Gays can marry, you can expect privacy, you can have dissenting opinions about the government without fear. Michael Moore says you don't have to lock you doors, but I think most of us do. Funny that. We have about the same number of guns per capita, but most of them are hunting rifles and shotguns, and we use them to hunt. Animals. We find shooting firearms at each other distasteful and painful, so we don't. Our football has only three downs and two (yes TWO) fifty yard lines. No metric in football yet, but gives us time, we can fuck that up too. We talk about hockey. A lot. We love hockey. We miss hockey. Mmmm, hockey. Some things here happen in French, some things happen in both English and French. That's because both of these languages are official languages. That's right, official! So, if you still want to make the trek, come on up. Just leave your hand guns at the border, take your attitude down a couple of notches (we're not big on smack downs, we'd would rather talk it out), and we kinda like everyone, so you might have to as well. Good Luck. Peace, Pierre (note the French name) __________________ --- There is no such thing as strong coffee - only weak people. ---

12-02-2004, 09:19 AM	#10 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	About 43.4% of the US economy is government spending and/or health care related. About 43.0% of the Canadian economy is government spending and/or health care related. 8% of Canada's work force is unemployed, in the army, or in jail. 8% of USA's work force is umemployed, in the army, or in jail. Wealth disparity in Canada is less than the USA. The ratio of the wealth of the top 20% to the bottom 20% is less in Canada than in the USA. Practically, this goes alot towards explaining our low murder rates. Canada's average divorce rate (per capita) is lower than the divorce rate of the American state with the lowest divorce rate. This is mostly, but not completely, because our marriage rates are also much lower than American rates. The Canadian Federal government really does nothing. It is mostly a large accounting organization that distributes tax money to the provinces to spend. The provinces quite strongly argue for getting the money with no strings attached. (In the USA, the Federal government requires, say, speed limits on roads and a 21+ drinking age in order for a state to recieve federal highway funds.) At the same time, the Canadian Federal Government does alot, including a tonne of funding for our nice universal health care system. When you go to a doctor, you hand them your health card, fill out a form that says why you are there, and then get treated. There is between 3 and 10+ times less paperwork involved (based off the % of GDP Canada and the USA spends on health care paperwork). Perscriptions cost money. Less money than in the USA, but they aren't free. Health coverage from the company you work for tends to be prescriptions, dental, vision, life insurance, travel and hospital room upgrade coverage. The main use of the Canadian military overseas is peacekeeping. They go into an area where both sides don't want to fight anymore, stand there with big targets on their heads, and say "stop it" "no really, stop it", and carry big guns. In general, Canadian military gear is technologically backwards, but our training tends to be ... quite competative. Our active duty military, on a per-capita basis, something like half the size of the American military. Canada exports oil and energy. Canada exports more than it imports. Our Federal government is running a surplus, and paying down the debt. Our politics are currently consensis-based (it takes at least 2 parties agreement to pass a piece of government legistlation). There are 4 political parties in our rough equivilent of your "congress" (left, center, right+regional, regional). __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

12-02-2004, 09:54 AM	#11 (permalink)
Fly see the links to my music? Location: Beautiful British Columbia	........best pot in the world too..........cleeeeeeaaaaaannnnnnnnnn......... __________________ BASTARD SterlingStudios

12-02-2004, 11:46 AM	#12 (permalink)
angeltek Crazy Location: Regina, sk, Canada	a point about the army. there was a documentary I was watching a few years ago, where they sent 10 Navy Seals to canada to participate in the basic training. Only 1 was able to make it through.

12-02-2004, 12:38 PM	#14 (permalink)
portereight Crazy	Whenever the topic of American moving to Canada comes up it seems that many americans either can't even entertain the concept of anyone on the planet not wanting to be an American, or they get their backs up and start flinging insults. Is it just me or is this sort of reaction uniquely American? No one in canada or europe seems to gets their panties in a twist when people emigrate from our countries. Americans are quick to recognize their immigrant roots, and the desire to move to a land of opportunity free of persecution, yet this topic never goes unchallenged with the trite "if you were a real american you'd stay and fight". Sadly this is often followed by a variation of "don't let the door hit you on the way out"

12-03-2004, 10:19 AM	#15 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	Don't be fooled by the bluestate/redstate maps. It is city vs non-city. Every single city in the entire USA with a population over half a million voted Democratic (at least 50% Democratic presidential votes). __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

12-03-2004, 10:42 AM	#17 (permalink)
billege Watcher Location: Ohio	Granted, Canada has a smaller total population number as there are uninsured Americans. So, we're not talking about equivialent size populations by a longshot. From what I've seen in my trips through Canada, it's also not as diverse population as the US. But, on that point, I have no statistics, and may be horribley wrong. Please correct me with data I'm too lazy to look up, if indeed I am. I'm relating that while in London, Niagra Falls, and Toronto (great city, BTW) the only non-whites I saw (besides my wife) were in Toronto. I also got some odd looks when I requested my meat cooked medium rare. In Canada it seems, they ain't down with that. You'd have thought I asked the waitress for anal sex right there at the table from her response to my reqeust for a rare steak. The fucker came medium well, btw. One strike for Canada there... I spent some time while up there watching Canadian news channels, and I got the distinct impression Canadians look upon the US from a "slightly smarter big brother" kind of view point. Like, "oh look at what our big dumb little brother did today! isn't he cute? dumb, but we love him." That's what I sorta picked up on, I'd be interested in honest unpolished Canadian views on the real Canadian attitude towards the US. I think comparing the Canadian to the American socieity is a stupid-on-its-face comparison. There is no way to directly compare thier society with ours. I mean, sure there are places where a comparison can be made, but the two countries are very different. One is the worlds dominant superpower, with all the shit that comes with that. The other is not the worlds dominant superpower. The two countries are very close, sure, and carry a lot of similarities, but give it a rest. Deciding that another country is a better place for you to live, is a valid decision. Deciding to flee your home country for another, because you erroniously belive they've got it all figured out...that's what you get from not really considering the reality of the situation. Absconding to Canada because one does not like the way the US is heading, is cowardace, and a kind of treason. (Remember, you're free in the USA to HAVE your opinion, and so am I. I say fleeing is a shitty opinion. So say I. So shall it be.) Rats flee a sinking ship. Heros fix the hole in the ship, pump out the water, get the crew to help fix the sails and rudder, then go off into the sunset to fuck the prom queen!! Long live the USA! Battered, bruised, and twisting herself through an evolution in society she may be, but she's not out of it, and damn those who abandon her as if she is!! __________________ I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence: "My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend." Last edited by billege; 12-03-2004 at 10:47 AM..

12-03-2004, 11:46 AM	#23 (permalink)
Scorps Lost!! Location: Kingston, Ontario	I havn't even heard of that untill now......hummm more Americans to piss me off great...not that all of you are assholes but the ones I have met are!

12-03-2004, 12:14 PM	#24 (permalink)
MacGuyver You're going to have to trust me! Location: Massachusetts	dodges Yakk's flying statistics Wow, Canada is cooler than I even had an idea of. I thought Canada was cool before, but now... jeez that was alot of stats. "'Cause knowledge is power!" __________________ We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit. ---Aristotle Deeds, not words, shall speak [for] me. ---John Fletcher

12-03-2004, 01:48 PM	#28 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	Whoot, more stats! US Foreign-born population: Miami: 60.6% Santa Ana, Calif: 48.4% Los Angeles: 41.3% NYC: 36% Foreign-born California: 26.9% Foreign-born NYS: 20.9% Foreign-born Mississippi: 1.1% Sources: 30% from Mexico, 22% from elsewhere in Latin America, 27% from Asia, 15% from Europe http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/census...oreignborn.htm How do you define diversity? Los Angeles has about the same foreign-born percentage as Toronto, but most of them come from the same place (Mexico). Does this mean LA is more or less diverse than Toronto? There are 3 cities in the USA larger than Toronto[2] : Chicago, Los Angeles and New York City. All of them have a lower foreign-born %. Two cities in the USA have a larger foreign-born percentage: Miami and Santa Ana. [2] yet another fact that I doublt most non-Canadians know. =) __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.