dobster

Oh I see. Two years. Well you have the lowdown then. Sorry sir.

Your experience of my country is absolutley nothing compared with living here a lifetime. From what you've said (and only from that, as obviously I know nothing about you) you literally have no clue what you're taking about in that regard. Do not dismiss something so awful so hastily. And believe me, a bomb is a bomb, found or not. The fear that it creates is not something to detract from. "Minor squabbles". What an idiotic thing to say.


Now, cool down, read my response again and see if I detract from the horror of the 9/11 situation.

filtherton

That's an irrelevant distinction the voters are chosen randomly. What would the net difference be between seeing the opinion expressed in a letter instead of a newspaper? No one is forcing anyone to vote in a specific way.

mirevolver

Two years is more experience than the average American has.

Of course terrorism is awful in all it's forms and of course it creates fear in the public. That's the business terrorists are in, to create terror. And the fact that Europe has had to deal with terrorists for so long should give the cause to be behind America's actions as we go on the attack against terrorists and terrorist supporters, but instead Europeans turn to their second favorite sport behind football, criticizing America.

__________________
Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions.

mirevolver

The Guardian is giving out the names and addresses of registered voters specifically in Clark County, Ohio. They have specifically targeted a particular area of a battleground state that they feel they can generate the biggest results from.

__________________
Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions.

dobster

Yeah, I can understand that you must feel like that sometimes. Don't take it to heart - its really only about the political situation. Personally I love your country in general! Though, there are xenophobes in every country i guess.

The truth is, your president seems to have induced a state of heightened fear in my country. Indeed, my first thought after the 9/11 atrocities was "Oh sh*t! What will Bush do?! He could have us in a holocaust by the evening!"


PS: BTW, despite what my government is trying to tell me, I'm english, not european.

filtherton

And? How will this effect the election more than a newspaper article?

Arc101

the IRA has killed nearly 1,800 people during its campaign, nearly 650 of them civilians. That is a lot of bombs. Do not dismiss so lightly the pain, anger and dispair that the IRA brought to so many people.

docbungle

Being bombarded with spam from The Guardian would bother me a little less than all the swift boat attack ads and all that nonsense on tv. I don't see it as a big deal, as it will influence virtually no one. And if it does, well, that's how it goes. You are influenced by what you allow to influence you. But I definitely do not agree with all this "Mind your own country" talk. If everyone just minded their own country then we wouldn't know anything about anyone but ourselves.

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Bad Luck City

Blackthorn

Here's a question for ya...Do Americans make good hostages? Is the pope catholic? Of couuuurse!!!

__________________
What are you willing to give up in order to get what you want?

Ustwo

Oddly Europeans who know nothing of America beside what they see of our TV shows (and based on what TV shows get shown in Europe, Europeans must have pretty low brow tastes), think they know whats best for America.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dobster

Well, what you've done there is not read the whole thread, I guess.

For example:

[QUOTE=dobster]...The truth is, your president seems to have induced a state of heightened fear in my country. Indeed, my first thought after the 9/11 atrocities was "Oh sh*t! What will Bush do?! He could have us in a holocaust by the evening!"...[QUOTE]

The point thats been made is that YOUR country's actions can have a detrimental effect on the stability of world peace in a more dramatic way than other countries. If that's a misguided perception, I suppose you have to have lived outside The States to have reached that perception.

The domestic way your country works isn't something people are trying to change, just the international way it influences things. If it seems blinkered, sorry.

(EDIT: don't know why 'quote' isn't working)

__________________
sig-na-ture
1. One's name as written by oneself.
2. The act of signing one's name.
3. A distinctive mark, characteristic, or sound indicating identity.

DJ Happy

Sorry, but this comment is just more evidence of what I was talking about in my earlier post.

dobster

What was the omission, DJ? I couldn't work it out.

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sig-na-ture
1. One's name as written by oneself.
2. The act of signing one's name.
3. A distinctive mark, characteristic, or sound indicating identity.

DJ Happy

And this is only one of the terrorist organisations operating in Europe over the last 3 decades. Not to even mention attacks carried out by the ETA, the Red Army Faction, the PLO and Al Qaeda across the rest of Europe.

But to some Americans they are still the only ones who experience terrorism, whereas the rest of the world only has to put up with a couple of bombs in some pubs and other such "minor squabbles".

Yet more reason to write some letters if you ask me.

DJ Happy

The Bali bombings. It didn't get a single mention whereas the US soldier who threw himself on a grenade was mentioned twice on my journey to work alone.

daking

October 12th - 2002 - Bali bombing: In Bali, terrorists detonate bombs in two nightclubs in Kuta, killing 202 and wounding over 300.

Its funny how americans use september 11th as an excuse for almost any thing nowadays. They forget all the foreign workers who died there too.

splck

Well, I hope the British are successful and manage to change a few peoples vote away from the shrub. It's too bad americans feel that it's perfectly fine for them to meddle in sovereign nations affairs all the while ignoring foreign input into their affairs.

I don't hold a 9-11 victim or the event in higher regard than any other terror victim or event and nor should anyone else IMO. Dead is dead folks.

__________________
nice line eh?

jimbob

We did support your attack on Afghanistan, and when you guys finish the Iraq thing and start up the war on terror again I'm sure you'll have more support from us.

jimbob

Yeah it's a joke. We don't watch your films, we don't import your TV, we don't eat burgers, pizza and popcorn, we don't listen to beyoncee, we don't have line dancing clubs, we don't have a disneyland, we don't have national parks and we don't drive fords.

We want to be nothing like you.

And we certainly don't wear jeans!

adysav

That's not English you're speaking is it ;P

TheBrit

A touch hypocritcal, don't you think? For every Guardian reader who sends a letter, there will be an American who believes that his country is 100% correct to go into other country and change their governments because they aren't how they believe the other country should be.
No it doesn't. It shows that America can't throw it's weight around at the UN. If it came to a solution that all the countries agreed on, there wouldn't have been a problem, and an illegal war wouldn't have been started. Just because another country doesn't want you going to war doesn't mean that their opinion is a waste of time. What makes America's opinion any more valid than another country's?

TheBrit

It's quite apparent from this that you sir, are an arse. A friend of mine was shot by the IRA, he's lucky to be alive. I know of people who have been killed by them. They are hardly minor squabbles, a lot of people live in fear of being killed, just like the Americans. Don't feel that because your country was attacked by terrorists it gives America the right to start laying down the law.

Britain and France declared war on Germany in 1939 because they had a treaty with Poland, who were invaded by the Germans. They were given a deadline to get out. The difference is that in this case the war was legal, a country was invaded, this was an act of war, and Britain had a treaty with this country. The Germans were quite happy with Hitler really, he was a good leader.

Now, normally I'm open to views from all people on this topic, but it's fairly obvious that you don't really want to listen. Just step back a bit and look at America, a country that has illegaly invaded another and done what it wants, when it wants on the international political scene. I don't think it's any wonder that people from all over the world want to ask American votes to consider the effect that their foreign policy has. These letters won't be brainwashing, they will be polite letters explaining a point of view that Americans as a whole don't see. I'm sure that you agree that people should have all the information before they vote, and this is a way of giving them more. I'm also sure that the voters can think for themselves, being adults and all.

mirevolver

A newspaperarticle is read voluntarily. And the person reading the article paid for the newspaper so he/she could read the articles.

In the case of these letters, I'm willing to bet that most people in Clark County, Ohio don't know what the Guardian is and have neither paid nor asked for the opinions of the people sending them letters. Instead they have these opinions forced upon them through their mailboxes.

__________________
Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions.

jimbob

"The proposed redeployment would almost certainly put the British troops under US command."
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...329369,00.html

If troops from my country are to be under the command of an American President then that President should be accountable to me, preferably through a vote.

mirevolver

You all keep claiming that the IRA is a big problem there, but I have yet to see the Royal Marines go into Belfast and clean house.

__________________
Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions.

jimbob

You're really losing it! Do you go up to street preachers to get them to shut up?

jimbob

They've been there since the 70's. You really lived here?

mirevolver

Originally Posted by mirevolver
And France holds a veto vote in the UN security council. So this pretty much shows that going to the UN is a waste of time.


Way to take my words out of context there. I was making the point that because the French had many oil contracts with Saddam and that they were getting bribe money from the corrupt oil for food program, it was pointless to go to the UN because it was already known that no matter the circumstances, the French were going to veto.

__________________
Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions.

mirevolver

In Dundee, 92-94

__________________
Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions.

mirevolver

Saddam also had a history of invading his neighbors, Iran, Kuwait. And the Kuwaitis put their full support behind the US going into Iraq.

__________________
Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions.

jimbob

The Iran war was a US-USSR conflict fought by proxy, and the US didn't exactly do much to prevent the first Iraq war:

http://www.chss.montclair.edu/english/furr/glaspie.html
"But we have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border disagreement with Kuwait" is basically "go and invade if you want to"

It's no surprise that Kuwait would support the US, getting revenge by proxy!

mirevolver

Iraq is part of the war on terror. It is undisputable that Saddam supported terrorist activity. He gave funds to the Palistinian terrorists and their families. That combined with his desire to have weapons of mass destruction made him a danger to the world he had to be dealt with.

__________________
Aside from my great plans to become the future dictator of the moon, I have little interest in political discussions.

Ustwo

Mire you should head over to the politics board.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Tophat665

Hussein is a bad man, and Iraq may one day come to be better off without him (sometime after their civil war, and then again, maybe not), but you never heard anything about suicide bombings in Iraq when he was in charge, and he certainly wasn't exporting terror, just some money to give him some hardcore Muslim cred as a (successful) bid to poison the political well if we happened to invade and conquer. And it wasn't paymets to suicide bombers, but pensions to their families. Looked at from the Arab point of view, this is absolutely no different that passing the hat for a widow of one of our soldiers killed in this ideologically motivated war.

Now, combine this window dressing with a succesully frustrated desire to have weapons of mass distruction, and you have...

A pretext, and a flimsy one at that. I haven't been able to figure if Bush dragged us into this war for political, religious, or economic reasons, but I am pretty sure I am safe in ruling out national security concerns.

Ponder: we are 5% of the world's population, and use 25% of the world's resources. I would estimate half to 3/4 of the technological advances of the last 50 years have come from America. Before 9/11, we hadn't had an attack on our soil since WW II, and before that, you have to go back to 1812. So we're rich, fat, smart, tough, comfortable, and armed to the teeth. Leave aside our ideologies, which much of the world (hell much of the country) finds repugnant, and there's a lot to envy there.

Nope, not even close to kidding.

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

DJ Happy

Well, obviously living in Scotland during the run-up to the ceasefire will give an unshakeable grounding into the atrocities committed by the IRA.

The British Army has a constant presence in Northern Ireland. You never noticed that? SAS forces too. Operations in Northern Ireland constitutes the final stage of training for their counter-terrorist division.

But really, your assertion that the terrorism problems faced by other countries is insignificant compared to yours only reinforces the insular and self-obsessed stereotype of Americans that is already prevalent the world over.

jwoody

Muahahahah!!! I'm influencing the American election and there's nothing you can do about it!!!!

Lockjaw

Yes but you are speaking for the Brits(excuse me if you aren't British but you sound an awful lot likt one). I HIGHLY doubt you would have that same sentiment in Germany or France or Italy. So hence I kind of doubt the entire rest of the world wants to "grow up" to be like America.

BTW there is more to being American than eating bad food and watching trashy TV. When more of our own people realize that the better off America will be.

jimbob

The tv we get from you is all pretty good: Simsons, 24, the West Wing, Frasier, Arrested Development (my current favourite). If you do have a lot of trash then I don't think it gets across your borders.

Germany is the most pro-american country in Europe and don't mistake France's desire not to import your culture as Anti-Americanism. They don't want to import British culture either! France holds dear to the ideals of Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite, which is exactly what the US used to be about. If anything it's the US which is now anti-american.

Yes, I'm British. I spell favourite with a U and I'm proud of it!

Lockjaw

Yet we catch endless flack from this stat and are constantly told to cut back on consumption.

Yet many of those advances have been co-opted by other countries and vastly improved upon and the American roots of that technology are quickly becoming ignored.

A little thing called vast ocean expanses and friendly neighbors might be a bit to contribute to that.

Yet for everything you've listed I've had lengthy LENGTHY arguements with people from other countries about regarding our habits and I highly doubt their motivation comes from a place of envy. In fact I kind of cringe at this strand of thinking because it's exactly what some of the more extremist people I know base their arguements of foreign criticism of America on. I.e. the belief that everybody in the world is merely jealous of America and that's why they have a problem with things we do. Never minding that there might actually be something wrong in what we are doing.
I don't think you'd ever get the average person in Europe to say they are jealous of America just as a blanket statement. There might be one or two things they wish they had that is uniquely American but you can say that of every country. As an American I'm jealous of the Japanese and their endless amount of cheap electronic trinkets. I'm jealous of Mexico for their beautiful country and coastal areas. But that doesn't mean that I want to "grow up to be like Mexico". IMO to say you want to grow up to be like something that means you want all their good traits and all their bad traits...and if you can find me a poll where the majority of the French,German, or Italian people who would want their country to become exactly like America I would most assuredly be shocked. Hell Canada doesn't want to be like America and they really are the most like us in the entire world.

To be honest the only people on the web I've run into that wilingly say they want their country to be more like America...are Brits(and a couple of very self-hating ones at that).

Not seeing it...I really am not. In fact the French/American animosity towards one another has been on the rise even before Bush even stepped foot in office.

Lockjaw

Yeah...Arrested Development is a bit trashy(funny but trashy).

Not saying they are being Anti-American I'm saying they don't want to be "American" when they grow up. Those are two very different things.
North Korea is anti-American. France isn't. I understand that. But at the same time not being anti-American doesn't make you want to be exactly like America. I'm not anti-French like many of the people I know...I like things about France...but it would be a cold cold day in hell before I'd wish my country to turn into France.

Regardless of what you feel about Bush the US still gloms strongly to it's initial tenants of Liberty and Justice. Now whether those same tenants are applied internationally....I dunno but I'd argue the ideals of French Liberty,Equality, and brotherhood don't hold up internationally either.

Ahh so my Brit sensor isn't completely broken. Nice meeting ya Pompie.(just kiddin...picked that one up from an Aussie guy I used to work with).