Menoman

I think I see what your saying ART, I'm not exactly sure what your proposing to end the problem.

Are you saying you want the government to stop private companies from making these things so that we can't eat em.

Or saying that the government should regulate how they advertise to the populace?


If you mean something different altogether please let me know. I'm a firm believer that the media is a huge player in what probably 90% of the population think is "Truth" whether it is truth or propaganda.

I can't see limiting free enterprise because people are sheep.

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ARTelevision

I'm not a politician and I don't go far in my proposals. That would be for someone else who is sufficiently motivated in that direction and convinced enough that government regulation of unchecked capitalism is a necessary part of the processes of government and capitalism to extend the protection against the marketing of harmful agents to children to include food products that cause nothing but obesity and attention-deficit and other disorders. Realistically, these foods are as dangerous as cigarettes.

Free enterprise is everywhere limited in the real world. The excesses and danger of unregulated free enterprise began as a result of the lethal results of the first phase of the Industrial Revolution.

As those who pay attention to this forum are aware. I am in general, a proponent of capitalism and not of government intervention in our lives. I am interested however in continuing the practice of using government as our collective agent to wield power against the titanic forces of enterprise that negatively manipulate the population with no motive other than shareholder profit. There are other things more crucial to the survival and welfare of human beings than enterprise is willing or able to promote.

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tecoyah

Uncontrolled corporations can lead to misguided, and often destructive descisions. There is, in my opinion, a level of control that the government must maintain over corporate manipulation of the population. We have seen, in recent years the results of what happens when Corporations begin to control the power (lobbies, and campaign contribution) of our Governmental descisions.
Due to the Capitalist nature of the United States, we have a fine line to walk, and must be wary of this line moving too far in either direction. Over-regulation can have detrimental effects as in the 70's and early 80's. But, a lack of regulation can be equally destructive, as we are witnessing now.
The ability of large corporations, and indeed entire industries to guide legislation intended to keep it in check is a major flaw in our system, and will likely lead to serious problems in the future.
As for the issue of health, and the food we eat, there is a fine line here as well. The government has a duty to protect the population from itself, when we as a people cannot (through ignorance of stupidity, and yes, these are different).
As Art has pointed out, it is not in my job description to lay out the specifics of these controls, but that does not mean I do not see the problem.

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Cowman

Yes..you can control your metabolism. However, some people are naturally born with faster metabolisms then other. Case in point: I work out 4 days a week and run the other 3 days a week, and still my body only burns ~2000 calories a day(including the workouts/running). My brother, on the otherhand, has never done an ounce of exercise in his life, and eats all day without consequence.

Im not denying that you can boost your metabolism, but people are born with different metabolisms. As well, your metabolism tends to decrease as you get older, thus older people will find it harder to lose weight then younger people.

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Charlatan

In Canada we currently regulate what kinds of advertisments can be used to promote alcohol, cigarettes, legal services, adult entertainment, perscription drugs, etc. As a society we have agreed that we want limits to how these goods and services are marketed to us.

Regulating how certain types of food are marketed to us needs to happen... again, most importantly as it pertains to our children.


Not if you use a microwave...


Lefty... I agree with you that promoting "vicitimhood" is a dangerous thing, however sticking your head in the sand claiming "my personal freedoms" are paramount is no answer either. I suppose this is just another way that Canadians are different from Americans but I don't think personal freedom is the "ultimate" when faced with a citizenry is clearly floundering.

As it has been noted here, people are a nations most valuable resource. If we don't keep them healthy we are neglecting those resources.

There has to be a happy medium between draconian measures and lassez-faire...

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bigoldalphamale

'unchecked capitalism' ...hardly. the kind of capitalism everyone thinks is ruining the US is the kind with its big profit generating balls cut off. Capitalism as it exists now is nowhere near the juggernaut of social irresponsibility in this country that it was in the late 1800' and early 1900's. Put kids in factories at age 6 and pay them a penny a week and make them work 17 hour days. pump out smog and soot from evey stack on the factory and dump every polutant and bi-product over the fence and into the water. THAT was capitalism 'unchecked'. We as a country have cut the proverbial balls off of the true notion of capitalism.

And while some things have gotten better in the way of environmental protection and child labor, and labor practice in general...it has not come without expense to the corporation. so how does the corporation dilute the the signficant costs of social responsibility? VOLUME!!!!! the more product or service sold...the cheaper the fixed costs become. how do you achieve volume? MARKETING ON A MASS SCALE!!!

at the end of the day, the CFO making capital budgeting decisions is doing what he has to do to keep the shareholders from putting him in front of a firing squad. the common belief of the corporate criminal is far too rampant and has become the default notion of executives for those who have absolutely no business education or experience at the corporate level. most of these guys and girls just want to make enough money and have enough job stability to feed their kids and themselves and afford some of lifes finer pleasures. the 2 or 3 % of executives who abuse thier power, position, and influence shed a false light on the business world.

a more intricate understanding of economics, fiscal policy, and the underpinnings of TRUE capitalism need to be grasped before anyone starts lobbying for the destruction of the cheeseburger.

Charlatan

Yes... that is just what is needed... less regulation.

Please. The balls, as you say, have not been cut off. Corporations are still extremely powerful entities in our world.

It is a matter of record that Corporations left unchecked do not do what is "right" only what makes money. Left unregualted, as you point out, we'd still have child labour and WAY more environmental damage.

Corporations get aways with murder on a daily basis. It is time they were held accountable.

Yes, that will likely create some ripples in the economy. Our cheap goods will likely go up in price because the process used for making them will be more costly.

A small price to pay for sustainable development.

(this is of course related directly to the food industry as well as pretty much all industries)

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

bigoldalphamale

interesting...

consider though...

the profits derived from higher unit sales volumes are distributed in the form of earnings and payments to the various financial stakeholders or plowed back into the corporation in the form on capital investment. most often in research and development and product development. unfortunately, product development does not always equal product improvement. but the advancement of technology is fueled by profit. inventors dont want to be paid with brownies, meatballs, and kind words. they want a paycheck like anyone else. by restricting the corporation's ability to continue bringing in profits, you restrict its ability to attract bright young talent. when the corporation cant afford to hire our own homegrown talent...we have to move our labor resource offshore. to india for instance, where highly skilled engineers are willing to work for half the price of an equally skilled american. then someone is going to cry "CORPORATIONS ARE GIVING AMERIANS JOBS AWAY TO FOREIGNERS!!!" i mean, i could go on and on...the effects of continuing to restrict corporate profiteering are pretty nasty and at some the point the law of diminishing returns kicks in on this whole social responsibility thing. at what point do you regulate the corporation so much that the sideaffects begin to outwiegh the advantages gleaned from this regulation.

in my opinion, you need to chose your battles with corporate americe very carefully...and fighting them about cheeseburgers when its really our job not to eat them if we are fat, is the wrong fight.

ARTelevision

NB
In general, it's best not to assume a lack of knowledge on the part of one's fellow contributors.

The simple fact is: "...intricate understanding of economics, fiscal policy, and the underpinnings of TRUE capitalism..." is held by proponents of positions on both sides of this issue. Yet, differences of opinion remain.

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Charlatan

But in not eating them are we not doing the same thing... driving down profits?

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

Cowman

For one of the *older* TFP'ers: Were hamburgers a normal or popular thing to eat at HOME before fast-food chains become popular? I mean, did people make hamburgers in their home from hamburger meat regularly, or did that only become popular after people got used to eating hamburgers at fastfood resturants?

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ARTelevision

bigoldalphamale, I think you stated your position well in your last post. I also see the need to exercise due dilligence in analyzing the effects of regulation upon industry. The solutions we, as a society, arrive at are generally accomplished as a result of long processes of education, analysis, and anticipated impact. We are just at the beginning of recognizing this issue as worthy of consideration on a large society-wide scale.

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brianna

do you really think that if corporate investors were making more money they would forgo the possibility of making EVEN MORE by outsourcing to other countries? outsourcing is not happening because corporations arn't making money, it's happening because they want to make even more.

I don't want to go back to the days of child labor or unrestricted work hours, and I don't want corporations to continue to target children with their misleading advertisements. history has shown that corporate responsibility is rarely willingly acted out without some government regulation. I don't think anyone in this thread is advocating the elimination of advertisement across the board, there is a middle ground between no ads and the unrestrained commercial society that we have today.

StephenSa

I used to eat delivery pizza, giant double cheesburgers, fries, you know all the crap you aren't supposed to eat but taste good and are quick, cheap and easy. I finally got tired of feeling bad all the time so I make my food for the week on Sunday, freeze it and can eat healthy every day pretty simply and still cheaply. I lost fifty pounds after I left the junk behind so I firmly believe cooking healthy food at home is the way to go. There are many other reasons to avoid fast food though. The fast food corporations treat their workers deplorably and have altered the way beef, poultry and potatos are produced and processed in America. Fast food has forced farmers to go broke, cattlemen to lose their ranches and the average poultry breeder makes about $12,000 dollars a year and ends up leaving the business in three years broke and in deep debt. Workers in slaughterhouses and processing plants work in horrible conditions, are often injured and then denied assistance by the company when they can't return immediatly to work. The foods taste good because a chemical plant in New Jersey creates new chemical combinations to give the various items their unique taste. I could go on and on but I end with just recommending anyone interested to read the book "Fast Food Nation" by Eric Schlosser. Its absolutely fascinating and a real eye opener about how our "friend" Ronald McDonald and other fast food giants work.

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kutulu

By implementing heavy regulations you are effectively telling parents what is best for their kids to hear. My unbord daughter is the responsibility of my wife and I. We are the ones who will dictate what is appropriate for her to watch, not some Washington beuracrate.

brianna

one could argue that right now parents may have a hard time making sure their children do not see ads (assuming that's what they want) -- advertising currently blankets the halls of public schools and is quickly being incorporated into the classroom. and who can blame schools? the're severely strapped for cash and corporations are willing to offer them large chunks of it if teachers and administrators will only allow the school to become one big commercial for their product.

additionally i care about children other than my own and i care about our society as a whole, i do not see any benefit to allowing corporations to target children with their advertisements outside of corporate profits. it should not be difficult for a parent to limit their child's exposure to advertisements and i am perfectly willing to error on the side of companies making a little less money off of pint size consumers if it helps to raise a generation of children more capable of making informed decisions.

raeanna74

The problem is that even if I only allow my daughter to watch 30 minutes of Nickelodian or Nick Jr a day she will see approximately 30-50 commercials or more a week. Plus my 4 yr old daughter has the chance to view commericals for Condoms with "Trojan Man" before I realize a the commerical is even on. Then there's the Nick Jr and even Public Television websites that she enjoys going to that have pop-ups like you wouldn't believe.

No matter how hard I try she is exposed to advertizing that I'd rather her not be exposed to. Part of the problem is the VOLUME of it that we are deluged with daily. There is no escape.

I wouldn't want too many regulations but perhaps the number of advertizements daily or the locations could all be regulated. There are regulations already inplace for bilboards and such things. They are limited in size and such. If future limitations would be in the same line then I wouldn't consider it all too limiting.

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kutulu

Pardon me for going on a tangent, but I think this is relevant.

These days whenever there is a fight to be fought against corporate America the opposition is always bringing the "poor children" into the fight. Special interest groups are using children as a weapon to fight the battles that can't be won without bringing innocent children into the mix.

Music with nasty lyrics was forcing kids into murder, drugs, and satanism so we slapped labels on the record as if a label won't make it more appealing. Same goes for smoking, TV, movies, and video games. Now we have these insane fines that can be imposed by subjective people based on vague regulations. Are the children safe now? Is everything perfect?

I'm all for enforcing clear and strict policies regarding actual truth in advertising. If they want to say it is healthy they better have damn good proof that it is, otherwise they can face strict penalties such as bans against any advertising for a certain time period or monetary fines.

How else do you expect to have television for free or cable television at a low price without having advertisements? Should Nickelodean be running ads based on the target group for the show or should they have Depends and mutual investment advertisements in there? I know what you're saying but you don't seem like you're being realistic with your expectations.

If the government starts shutting things down corporations lose money. They don't like that so they lay people off, hire less, charge more, or do all three things plus others. They are important parts of healthy competition and an economy.

I get the impression that people are vastly unaware of the power of the consumer or they are unwilling to put in the time needed to fight against the corporations. If it's the content you are offended by, there are groups that protest advertising and program content. When they've gotten enough pressure from those groups things have changed.

I guess it's the minute conservative or liberatarian part of me that says that we can't expect the govt to intervene every time we have a problem with corporate America.

Nazggul

One case does not a representive sample make. You likely will be a fantastic parent and your children will grow healthy and strong. You'll teach them what is good for them and bad for them so they can make educated decisions later in life.

However, you aren't representative of the problem. There are millions of parents out there who don't dictate what is appropriate for their children. They turn to the Television or other media outlet as a babysitter. They take little to no responsibility for raising their children. In the end more and more of yours and my tax dollars are going to be spent to support these Medicare programs because the children of these millions are getting their stomachs stapled after their lipo surgery because they were so unhealthy they couldn't walk out of the house under their own power.

I think people should be required to pass a test in order to have children...Really.

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-- Editors

tecoyah

Well....since the likelyhood of testing for reproduction is slim at best, let us again debate the choices we have before us to combat the epidemic of obesity, heart disease, and cancer our fast food diets have created.
It is all good and fine to have beliefs and opinion, but compromise and intellegent consideration of possibilities are the course of progress. There is a problem, and it will either be repaired, or it will become a larger problem.

Obviously we cannot, and I doubt anyone here seriously suggests we do, limit corporate advertising. That said, perhaps the message can be changed, or the product itself.

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Nazggul

The FCC currently regulates television, radio, and other media outlets. FCC Work within the system.

Right now, today you have a clear and relevant example of a problem and a solution. The tabacco industry and how they are marketing their products. The key is convincing enough people that the fast food diets, etc., are bad for them and require regulation. Right now that point of view is not pervasive. It isn't getting the attention of the agencies that can create change.

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tangledweb

This is the aspect that I believe is largely overlooked by the masses. Someone may say that "You make your own decisions and are responsible for them" and that is true to a large extent. When we say these things, we are rationalizing that we have all been raised with a fair and balanced idea of good/bad, right/wrong, etc.

The single largest cultural influence on a childs life is television. In many/most cases, children see things and situations on TV before they experience them themselves and so TV has molded an impression of correctness upon their psyche. When children are bombarded by constant commercials showing all the cool people doing 'X' or eating 'Y', they are being taught that these things are not only correct, but required for them to 'fit in' with their peers. These children now, do not get to the part of the logic chain where Healthy/skinny choices come into play because they have been superceded by societal 'peer' influence.

Example:
My two sons have never drank a soda in their lives until recently and they are 5 and 8 years old. This was a very conscious choice on the part of my wife and myself. They were recently given soda at their daycare center for the first time and that night I was told, "Dad, I want to start taking a Coke to drink instead of my juice. All of my friends have Coke for snack time and I want to drink it too. I tried it and I liked it, so can I take Coke tomorrow?" I explained to him that Cokes weren't as healthy as the juice/water drink that we send with them and so they couldn't take sodas. He (the 8 yr old) CRIED because everyone else would have sodas and he wanted them too. He doesn't care about the health reasons behind not drinking the colas, he wants to fit in!

Regulations on advertising would NOT prevent this from happening, but it WOULD go a long way towards minimizing the effects on children who do not have developed decision-making skills. I try to teach my children the reasons behind advertising at every opportunity and they are starting to become a little more aware that the commercials are just designed to get their money.

And money makes the world go 'round...

bigoldalphamale

dood!!! part of why i liked being a kid so much was because i could park a few candy bars and rootbeers away without reprucussion to my body. i would be out catching frogs, riding my bike, building forts, and burning about a billion calories an hour. let your kid have some damned coke and candy for christ sake!!! let him/her chase the ice cream truck for an astropop or creamcicle!!! i cry for the youth of america!!! so many parents these days are fucking fascists about raising thier kids, that it makes me want to puke. instead of telling your kid that he/she cant eat super frosted cocoa flakes, get them off the damned internet and out of the house for a few hours a day. i hated being in my house...and my parents encouraged me to be outdoors getting freshair. as a result, i am an active outdoorsman, and lover of sports and activities. this has helped keep me healthy and somewhat slim.

nevermind...keep raising your kids in communist households. its none of my business. but dont try to take away my right to see advertisements for the newest tastiest cheeseburger because you dont know how to raise your kids. thanks!

Cowman

Bigoldaphamale: No matter how much excersize your kids get, some just have slower metabolisms then others and cant take that kind of food no matter what. When I was growing up, I had afew friends who had slower metabolisms and despite eating better then the rest of us and getting just as much, if not more, activity (one of my friends had a swimming pool that he was constantly in if he wasn't playing sports with us), they still remained overweight.

Peoples bodys react differently to EVERYTHING. Just because your young, or the rest of your family is in great shape, DOESN'T mean you can eat whatever you want. People need to learn their OWN limits. Kids, in general, can't do this and don't really understand the nutritional value of things and how they impact their body. Thus, it's important for parents to at least somewhat monitor what their kids take in.

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tangledweb

I never said my kids don't get outdoors, get candy, or ice cream - that was YOU jumping to conclusions. I just gave an example of my kids not having-and previously not WANTING sodas until someone influenced them. If you want to criticize me or the way anyone else wants to live and raise their kids, do us all a favor and try to get the facts first.

Jumping to close-minded conclusions about things you don't know about does nothing to further the discussion here.

raeanna74

It wouldn't limit your "Right" to view brainwashing if they only regulated how often and what type of commercials are shown on the juvenile channels. I really don't want my daughter watching 10-15 commercials just to view a half hour of Dora the Exporer. I realize there is such a thing as free enterprise and all but Heck I pay for my television channels and there is enough advertizing on there daily that the stations are making quite a profit.

I also would prefer they didn't advertize condoms (as I mentioned before) on the cartoon channels where my daughter likes to watch. It was mentioned that a parent might want their child educated about safe sex or something of the sort. HA! As a parent I would like to educate her myself or have an impartial party in school educate her in a classroom setting. The junk commercials shown on TV ARE NOT for educational purposes in the least. There is no reason to be showing those types of commercials between juvenile programs.

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My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

K-Wise

If we are what we eat.....Then I'm fuckin delicious!

Asta!!

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Cynthetiq

Interesting. I'm not 100% sure about the condom commercial on Nickelodeon, because cable ops do get a percentage of local programming that they can "overlay" as an affiliate. When you do find inappropriate commercials like that you should contact the Nickolodeon offices and your local cable affiliate and let them know that it was a poor choice in commerical placement. If you cannot locate a phone number for Nick please PM me and I'll find one for you.

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Jam

Im not reading this thread...

but I would like to add the note that there are regulations on food that can be produced