NoSoup

I am kinda pissed off right now, and I'm sure I'll come to me senses later, but right now, all military recruiters should be shot, and the survivors shot again.

My roomate is attempting to join the navy. He is a bit overweight, not grossly fat though, or anything of the sort. His motherfucking recruiter first had him lie about his medical history, then to get through MEPs and accepted wants him to take an epson salt bath and a laxative to reduce his weight. Another couple of friends of mine joined the army and were flat out lied to about what their position would be. They were told they were going to be able to switch to what they wanted at basic, but in reality they are stuck with what the papers said. Coincidentally, it was the infantry, which is NOT what they wanted to do. I cannot even begin to tell you how much this pisses me off, but I'd be more than happy to share my reasons.

First off, with recruiters encouraging possible recruits to lie about their medical history.

What the fuck? If there are specific guidelines already set in place, they are in place for good reason. Lying might get them in, but it'll surely cause issues if the condition arises again. My friends are giving up years of their life, potentially risking death, and may be at a severe disadvantage because their medical history is not factual.

Secondly, why all these B.S. Tactics to get in under the weight limit? If they are too fat (excuse my bluntness) to join and operate at full capacity, allow them to lose the weight in a normal fashion before sending them in. The epson salt and laxitive only work for a short period of time, when my friend is running through the battlefield, it certainly won't help him then. Like a month or two really matters before going in? Why put someone already at huge risk even more at risk?

Finally, why in the hell (not to mention how could you live with yourself) would you lie to potential recruits about the position they would be in? They are doing something extremely courageous and honorable by dedicating the next few years of their lives, even their lives themselves, to help protect America. For them to think that they are going to be specializing in something that they are not upsets me greatly. I have a friend in Iraq right now, and the position he was told he was getting would have never put him there.

I want to beat the recruiter with a giant fucking stick. The worst part is he came to our apartment and started talking all secretively. "Once we do that thing, and the other thing, you'll pass" Listen here motherfucker, just because I'm not in the armed forces doesn't mean that I can't figure out what the hell you are talking about....

Sorry for the rant folks, what are your thoughts/opinions?

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

Lebell

I've heard many times to get everything IN WRITING regarding recruiters' promises.

So while I usually support the military, I also agree that it is dishonorable to lie to potential recruits in order to sign them up.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

la petite moi

That's definitely wrong, but it was your friend's choice to listen to the recruiter in the first place and join nonetheless. Your friend could have said: I'm sorry, I don't meet the requirements; nevermind. But more than likely, your friend was happy the recruiter was letting him in.

About the lying about possibilities to change responsibilities once in, I believe that is wrong.

That being said, I just don't like the recruiters because they don't stop calling you!!

Trisk

I agree with you. This is wrong. They shouldn't be lying to people about what they're going to be doing in the army or lying to their higher-ups about what the weight of these people are. I don't see why they need him to take laxatives and do the epsom salt thing either. If they want to lie about his weight, they should just write a different weight there. The thing is, they probably want him to do it so, if questioned, they can say *he* was the one using dishonest tactics to get in.

Is all of this one or two specific recruiters or was it different for your different friends? Because if it was only one or two, maybe you should look into reporting them...?

Cynthetiq

Caveat Emptor.... or Buyer Beware...

doesn't matter what it is... you always have to be wary when someone is trying to "sell" you on something.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

NoSoup

Agreed. However, I think it falls into a slightly different category when that "something" that they sell you will most definately result in serving your next 2-6 years.

Under normal circumstances, it is up to the buyer to be aware, but especially with the military, as a typical citizen, I know very little of what they can or can't do. Had a recruiter told me that I can simply ask to be transferred once Basic is over, I would have likely believed him.

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

Fallon

Well, that makes me feel a lot better now that I didn't join a couple years back. I was also told by a recruiter to excercise my neck a bunch so the ratio of neck-to-waist would be at a reasonable level because I was like 20lbs overweight for their standards.
When he was telling me that, I was like..."What the fuck..."

Also in the field that I want, it isn't really given a specific job so when I told the recruiter that I wanted to work on computers, he told me that I'd probably be working at a computer for an artillery crew which kinda made me feel uncomfortable for some odd reason. *shrugs*

erion

I was being heavily recruited by the Navy when I was in college. There were promising me pretty much everything I could think of. I actually told the recruiter that my boyfriend probably wouldn't approve to get him to stop calling me.

lurkette

Dude, scary....this is exactly what I was going to say.

Just like any other job, get your new position in writing, and if you don't like the way they're handling the process, or don't like what they're offering, you have the option to say "no thanks." This should completely go without saying for anyone with the slightest bit of cynicism, but just because they're the military doesn't make them immune to the seamier human tendencies like deception and coercion.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

skinnymofo

i took the asvab a few years ago and since then the army and marines for a while wouldnt stop calling me.
I told the marine recruiter that i know the opportunities are there if i need them, and if i want to join ill give him a call until then no i dont want to be in the service.
then he used his, "well, let me call you back in 6 months and see how you feel then" speech and i gave in. ;/
i just ignore the army

wonderwench

This is appalling. The reason for physical requirements is that a minimal level of fitness is necessary. Using diuretics and other extreme measures to temporarily qualify only puts the recruit in a compromised position once he or she has to go through basic training.

BigGov

It's one of many "dirty little secrets" of our military. Although, it isn't really that secret, many, many people who have served will say to get whatever the recruiter says in writing.

Because for every cool/great job, there is at least one that is really dangerous, shitty, or needs a large amount of troops. Most recruiters are stuck with filling those positions, sometimes in any way possible.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

NoSoup

Lol, that is exactly what I was trying to get out, but you said it in a much more legible and in a less pissed off manner.

/agree 100%

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

NoSoup

Although that may be true, it still shouldn't matter. These people are putting their lives at risk, the least we could do is honestly let them know how at risk they are...

"Any way Possible" is complete BS to me. The ends do not justify the means.

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

BigGov

Whoa, whoa, I don't approve of it I'm just saying, that's what they do.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

sailor

Its a pretty well-known fact that recruiters will sell their soul to get you to enlist. Take anything they say with a very large grain of salt.

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

laconic1

I actually had a recruiter approach me at the library once. I went ahead and took their entry test and got a 93 on it. I didn't really want to do it, so I didn't join, but I still get regular mailings from them about how they need college grads like myself. As much as I support the military, I don't care for the recruiting stuff they try to pull to get you to join.

NoSoup

My Apologies! I wasn't trying to attack you - what you said rings very true. Just stating my opinion on the topic.... no offense intended

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

BigGov

I figured, I was just making sure you place the blame far away from me

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Jam

They also put out a video game as a recruitment tactic... why else would the army spend the money to make and release a game, for free...

Sparhawk

Tons of recruiters get away with this crap - which is why boot camps have a "fat-boy" company (or squadron) - so because the recruiters know the problem will be solved at the other end, they don't ever have to worry about it at their end (unless the recruit drops out, "failure to adjust to military life" discharge I think it's called)

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Journeyman

Tell me more about this fat-boy company.

Could be that, ahem, there are some people who see the service as a bet to be hedged in terms of college financing, but have yet to have the discipline to get into shape for a ten minute mile.

BigGov

They can also use it as a training tool.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

pocon1

The weight is not that big a deal, basic training should take care of that. Of course, being fat will not help and will make you more tired.

And yes, it is bad when people are misled about what type of activity they might be engaging in in the service. On the other hand, they are all soldiers and are all trained for combat. But these are usually 18 year old kids, still wet behind the ears, and are easy prey for dishonest recruiters.

Pragma

My recruiter is very honest and forthcoming about everything I need to do (including getting stuff in writing) - but a lot of recruiters only care about their ratings and getting more recruits, and especially filling certain billets. As such, they'll do whatever it takes to get people to join - and unfortunately your friends found out the hard way.

As other people said, make sure that you get everything in writing, especially your MOS. Your MOS can't be changed (except in, I suppose, very special circumstances) after you enlist, because they plan for you to fill that spot until you retire.

The weight shouldn't be a big deal - I don't think anyone would make it through basic training without getting in shape - and I know that the USMC (and I assume the other branches) have a "Rudimentary Physical Training" squad or something like that which recruits who aren't in shape get assigned to, to get them up to the level of their fellows.

__________________
Eat antimatter, Posleen-boy!

ubertuber

FYI - While some recruiters are dishonest, most are not. After all, their integrity and demeanor are huge advertisements for the service. Also, they get their shit creamed by supervisors if they get caught encouraging recruits to lie. After all, in the end, the military wants recruits who are actually qualified, not those who can sing a song.

NoSoup, it sounds like this recruiter was trying to make his mission for the month (quota). Otherwise, if they really wanted your friend, they'd have encouraged him to lose the weight the right way, and enlist in a later month. Hell, many recruiters will offer to let you work out with them once a week or more, in hopes of HELPING you meet the standards! I hope your friend realizes that this guy is just one bad apple and not indicative of military people or values in general...

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

NoSoup

This doesn't seem to be the case though... Five close Friends of mine joined the armed forces. Four Different recruiters recruited them. All lied about their medical history, 2 were lied to about their occupation, and 1 is having issues with the weight thing.

Also, I know a girl that quite literally slept with all of the recruiters in a single night. Moreso, this girl was one of the recruits

I know that this should not affect my views on ALL recruiters, but it certainly seems that all of them in this area are fucktards.

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

tropple

It's sad that so many people have so little familiarity with the military on so many levels.

__________________
+++++++++++Boom!

jaco

Recruiting is a business. If you believe it is anything other than that you are decieving yourself. I and quite a few of my friends did a stay in the various armed forces, I personally had 4 years jrotc experience and 98 asvab and they still tried to play mindgames and make me signup as a grunt MOS. Unfortunately a few of my friends didnt look at the paperwork and just blindly signed with nothing but the reassurances of their friendly recruiter.

Funny how recruiters never stay in one place too long, perhaps avoiding their former recruits?

Also, as to their commanders disapproving of the lying, they know what the recruiters are doing because they are the ones who taught them. You give these guys too much credit if you think they would think up all these workarounds themselves. I've heard the same exact lines *read: lies* from recruiters in many states.

__________________
"How soft your fields so green, Can whisper tales of gore"
"Thou art god"

Sargeman

Yes, many recruiters will say what they need to to get you in. Some will probably try to get you to lie about any medical problems or potential problems you may have.

My NAVY recruiter talked a million miles a second and before I really realized it, I had agreed to take the ASVAB test and scored like an 85 or so. He then told me I could have any job I wanted. When I actually went to the MEPS station it was a totally different experience. No pressure or lies going on. I have flat feet and they questioned me about it. But my flat feet have never been a problem for me.

They showed me a list of about 10jobs that I was more qualified for. These were that higher technical jobs ie. sonar tech, radio tech, and advanced electronics tech ( which is what I chose). Then they asked me if I would be interested in subs. They explained I would get sub pay, quicker immediate advancement coming out of my electronics school, and would be in a tighter group of sailors that was more of a family and friends atmosphere. After discussing things for a few days with the MEPS pesonnell and the recruiter I signed up.

Boot camp had a fat-boy program. You would go to the gym and excercise for an hour every morning, except Sat and Sun., aside from your usual PT. You also had to double time everywhere unless you were in a group of, and I don't remember exact numbers, 8 or more. You do generally lose a lot of weight in boot camp unless you are already skinny and have nothing to lose.

Part of the reason for them trying to get you to..... not tell the whole truth is that they have quotas to meet. Not only that but many times they can get you in, they just have to get you in on special wavers.

__________________
...because there are no facts, there is no truth, just data to be manipulated. I can get you any results you like, what's it worth to you.....

SinisterMotives

The lying doesn't end after boot camp either. Most people just get used to it or forget what lies they were told. If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have taken a lawyer with me when I joined up.

wallace1

Saying that you wish to shoot this recruiter, ALL recruiter's is really not cool. I'm sure that there are some who are like used car salesman but I will not believe that this is the rule rather than the exception. Secondly, I come from a military family, a long line of military men, so I do NOT apreciate you saying that you want to (or even could) kill any of our brave servicemen or women, I find that to be offensive and cowardly.

__________________
Midway in the journey of our life I came to myself in a dark wood, for the straight way was lost.

NoSoup

My apolgies wallace1, I didn't mean to offend you, however -

I wasn't trying to imply that any recruiters should actually be shot, in this area that is more of a figurative expression.

I am also not trying to imply that this is common practice for all recruiters in all areas, I believe I specified that is was only for certain the recruiters in my area. I believe, based on this quote

that I have just cause to form that opinion. Now that a few days have passed, I see that I was being rather rude with my uneccesary foul language, but I meant no disrespect to either you nor anyone else that is in, or was in the service.

The people serving our country, paying for our freedom with their blood, sweat, and lives are Heros. I simply disagree with some of the tactics that recruiters (at least in my area) have used to get people to sign up.

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

ubertuber

Well, I'll tell you one thing - they are some of the best trained sales people on the planet... But they are under tremendous pressure to make quotas - though that should never excuse lying to a potential recruit.

Anyone talking to a recruiter should know they are talking to a formidable salesman, and nothing counts for shit unless it is IN WRITING. And you should never never not ever lie to anyone at MEPS, no matter who tells you to.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

wallace1

Apology accepted, good form too.

__________________
Midway in the journey of our life I came to myself in a dark wood, for the straight way was lost.

NoSoup

Thanks, and again, I didn't mean to offend anyone with this rant, I have considered editing the original post to make me seem a lil' bit more rational, but decided that I would just leave it in the original form.

__________________
I have an aura of reliability and good judgement.

Just in case you were wondering...

Rodney

Of course, the great question for recruiters is, "If military life is so wonderful and with so many opportunities, why are you working your butt off to stay in the part of the military which least resembles the rest of the military?"

Seaver

Rodney, many people go into recruitment because it is one of the fastest pipelines to advancement. Others do it because of family, or because of some nice pay bonuses.

Anyways as stated above, to every one cool job, there's three that no one wants to do. Everyone wants to be a pilot, but no one wants to be the guy who cooks his food or ensures the air conditioning on the ship works, or crawls around the turbine to ensure the ship can drive properly. Those positions HAVE to be filled or the miliary heirarchy falls apart. I take a utilitarian point of view, that the good to our culture and society outweigh the four years these people give up. If our military at any time starts to fail to keep all of their ranks alive (from general to private) the entire system will fall apart and guess what, we'll stop being an all-volunteer force again. The military HAS to keep running.

crfpilot

That is 100% wrong. I know several recruiters, I got out of the Marine Corps after 8 years because I didn't want that job. Nobody wants that job, but in order to stay competitive for promotion you have to do a "B billet" (recruiter, drill instructor, or embassy duty). If you don't get promoted you are forced out. In the Corps they have whats called a recruiter screening team, and when your name gets on that list you are doomed. Recruiting is the toughest, most stressful job on the planet. Imagine working 7 days a week, 12 or more hours a day for 3 years. You are required to "sell so many units" a month or your career is basically over. These recruiters are doing whatever they need to to support their families. My best friend was recruiter of the year for 2 years in a row and then one month he missed his quota and he was treated like the biggest shitbird in the world, by his Sergeant Major and CO. Alot of recruiters end up divorced, or in therapy because of the job, and like I said before NOBODY wants to be a recruiter but it is neccesary.

Rodney

Okay, I stand corrected. Deceptive recruiters don't do what they do to maintain a posh lifestyle. They do what they do because they have a metaphorical gun to their heads, or at least to the head of their career. Unfortunately, that's an even better incentive for bending the rules or outright lying. So some recruiters say, "It's them or me, I'll screw the recruit to save my own ass."

And I'm sure the command structure is aware that this sort of thing goes on, and just turns a blind eye as long as the recruit keeps coming and nobody kicks up a fuss.

I suppose that there are a lot of jobs in the military that nobody wants, which must be filled. I've got an answer: better pay and benefits. Better college benefits, especially, on the order of what vets in the '70s got, if not better. Much better than what they get now. And tell them that after four years of the shit job they'll be retrained to something they really want, if they stay in. And keep the promise. All I hear about is people in the Army and retirees talking about broken promises. Too much of that is another good way to kill an army, especially an all-volunteer one. Sure, it costs more to do the right thing. Always does.