Executing American civilians in Iraqi...
 

My question is this.. what was this guy doing in Iraqi in the first place. Perhaps I missed it, but all the article says is that he was a small business owner in PA....so what is this guy doing in Iraqi?

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._re_mi_ea/iraq

killing soliders in wartime is one thing, but I guess we should not expect any better from people who see flying planes into buildings as an act of heroism.

He was a civilian contractor. I don't know what he was doing, but it's possible he was working for the Haliburton subsidiary.

Killing civilians is wrong, but what those few soldiers did to humiliate those Iraqi prisoners wasn't much better. I'm not surprised something like this is happening - it pisses me off too much to write more.

He was there building cell towers I believe, thinking he could help re-build the infrastructure of the country.

It's a shame that he was killed that way. The one's that did it were praising god as they did it? I don't get that, but that's why they are extremest. Yes, we acted inappropriately towards some captured soldiers, but taking a life as revenge is not the answer either.

No it's not, but this is the way they deal with things. There's a great quote in "Blackhawk Down." It goes something like "the ability to kill - that is power." And that's how they see it.

:(

those people are the former in my sig.

Did you notice that in the pictures, the Iraqis are always hooded and the Americans are showing their faces?

The prison pictures, we can identify the guards but not the prisoners. The terrorists cover their faces and show their victims.

I've always wondered why those who are supposedly so devout and dedicated to their cause, Palistenian militants, Iraqi insurgents, feel the need to hide behind masks. Maybe, besides the fear of reprisal from their enemies, their cause isn't so popular to be pursued out in the open.

Hmmm that's an interesting observation. I'm not quite sure why they do that either. Perhaps they are ashamed of what they are doing, but somehow feel compelled to do it anyways.

UG! I nearly jacked this thread. Sorry.

This sucks. I hate this stupid war.

The obvious answer is to conceal their identities to avoid immediate capture, but if you wanted to start an analytical conversation about the mental state of these people, then you had better block out...oh say, 4 or 5 years of your life for that conversation, 'cause those folks have a seriously skewed view... or a tilted view(?) if you will, of life. lol

Well... I don't know how obvious that answer is - despite the surface obviousness. Trying to find these individuals would be like finding needle in a stack of needles. Look how long it took to find Saddam. We still haven't found Osama or Mullah Omar.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I have no doubt in my mind that these people would be nearly impossible to find and hold responsible. My only point was that by not wearing masks, it would make the manhunt that much easier for us as we would have faces to look for. I mean, it worked with the "deck of cards" (or sort of did anyways.)

Well, if that's power, and they take this as compensation for "humiliating" their people, then we can stop apologizing now, right?

Fortunately we're more civilized than them. However, I'm still unsure what the true consequence of the prison bs will be. I fear this "beheading" is just the beginning.

Those civilian contractors might disagree with you - given a choice, I'm sure they'd have chosen a few minutes of humiliation over being dead forever.

Still - I agree it is shameful behavior.

Apparently prisoners were killed also, not just brutilized, tortured and humiliated. I think the problem is that us soldiers are told they are fighting for sept 11th and they have a hate ingrained into them towards terrorists, which rubs off as hating arabs as they tend to be fanatical. How can you teach a person to hate someone so much and then tell them to turn around, treat them humanley and with respect? It is terrible what happened to this prisoner but at the same time, the US goverment did release some prisoners to calm fighting in falujah so why not trade agian to save the life of a civilian. I am disgusted by their actions yet I can see why they feel the need to defend their own homeland from occupation.

"Last month, Iraqi militants videotaped the killing of Italian hostage Fabrizio Quattrocchi, but the Arab TV network Al-Jazeera refused to air it because it was too graphic. "

They're just using the USA's abuse of Iraqi prisoners as an excuse. This isn't NEW. Any wonder why our soldiers have a strong distaste for the Iraqi military???

For the most part they don't. But there are always those few morons that do some stupid shit like that and make the rest of us look bad.

All the soldiers in question were reservists - probably frustrated about being away from their families for so long.

I see. So because a few evil men flew planes into buildings, ALL Arabs are evil.

OK, I'll accept that you believe that, but to believe that without admitting the following is disingenuous at best:

I guess they saw it as "7 Americans tortured Iraqi prisoners, so ALL Americans are evil."

Looks a bit different now, doesn't it.

Cartmen34,

I agree with shakran's evaluation. I believe it's dangerous to generalize like that.

Shakran,

In Cartmen's defense (and giving him the benefit of the doubt) when I first read that, I implied that he meant all as in ALL Al Qaeda. Which is still generalizing, but a generalization I'm sure many would agree with. However, if he meant all Arabs like you interpreted it, I agree that it was a poor generalization.

Because they're afraid of us. They know if we have a picture of what they look like we'll bring our shit to their grill.

I think its funny that people are trying to compare the two. You can't compare the acts of terrorists to those acting on behalf of the nation of supposed "liberators"

How are Americans more civilized than Iraqis? Americans kill and torture Iraqis the same as Iraqis torture and kill Americans.

This whole thing just makes me sick, its sad that we as humans are capable of such disgusting things. We can all thank Mr Bush for the 25 000 + deaths so far.

Agreed. The terrorists don't make any bones about what they are or what they do. That's not the case with the Americans (as anyone who listened to some of the congresspeople today will know)

At least we know where we stand with the terrorists...

Heh, that's something that most of my home-town would agree with...my town's a tiny redneck town in middle Tennessee, just so you can get an idea.

I've supported our troops the whole way and have stayed neutral on the war up to this point...but now I am against the war, because deaths are going up and some of those deaths are people who weren't meant to die for their country, like this instance here. For shame.

Something doesn't smell right about those prison pictures...
the way they were released...leaked....I don't know...I just don't know.

I just think we can forget about oil...we can forget about regime change...we can forget about weapons of mass destruction as being the reason for all this mess. What we have here baby, is a god-damned Holy War. Full-Tilt boogie. The snakes are out of the cage and it's Them or Us.

/jesus wept

Funny to me that Saddam and Al Qaeda have nothing to do with those 25000 deaths. Personally, I'm tired of getting messages each day about my fellow employees being ambushed, kidnapped and murdered. I think we (the US and the Coalitioners) are not being tough enough! We are fighting a bunch of coward who don't have the gumption to show their faces when they make a statement. Respect em ... Hell NO!

American Beheaded
 

Link

I have seen the video and it is extremely shocking. I know of Americans civilian and soldiers being executed but beheaded???

I'm really disgusted by them...

Does the link have the video? If so, you should warn people.

No, the link doesn't have the video. Its yahoo for goodness sake...

I do think something like this would have happened had the press not uncovered our abuse of the Iraqui prisoners. But that doesn't make what we are doing any less wrong.

This is probably the scariest war, because we are seeing all of its effects on television, through the internet, and we are hearing about them via satellite. All wars are awful, but this shows the true outcome of war- death- and it puts a face to the many thousands of names.

If we don't change something soon, what is to stop them from coming over here and doing to us what we are doing to them? I understand that literally, we have an army to stop them, but we have been fortunate as a country (I am not sure if that is the right word- fortunate) to have very few wars on our own land. I hope that our luck with that does not run out.

Sorry, but this war shit scares me, so I needed to rant. And the actions seen today need to be some sort of an indicator to our leaders- shit or get off the pot.

Nick Berg w/o Head = Naked Iraqi on Leash?
 

sure you're right. a few naked iraqis and the liberal left and entire arab world demands apology...but cut off the head of an innocent civilian, and it barely makes a ripple. i am sure islam will be issuing an apology first thing in the morning *holding my breath*...and then the liberal left will apologize for thier conspiracy to unleash the prisoner abuse scandal as a means of disrupting Bush's reelection campaign but which instead has now given islam lisence to perform the acts seen on the full version of the nick berg execution video. which by the way, is available on the net. CNN and ABC may think they know best about what you should and should not be seeing, but there are still a few news sources who protect your right to decide whether or not you want to see for yourself the kind of horrilbe shit humanity is capable of. be warned, it is disturbing...i wasnt ready for it and i wish i hadnt viewed it. nonetheless, having viewed it, and having the seen the nature of our enemy without the assistance of the tinted glass the liberal media would have us view through, i am glad and proud to have President Bush doing his part to rid the world of these ruthless murdering bastards.

-i'm out

Wrong and wrong. #1 Americans don't kill and torture Iraqis. Don't generalize - please, it can get messy that way. A few *bad soldiers* tortured these Iraqis. It's not a trend, and I sure hope they are punished for their acts.

From what I have read, Iraqi insurgents torturing Americans doesn't seem to be commonplace either. This incident might not have even been conducted by Iraqis. It is reported that it is Al Qaeda, and until otherwise proven, I'll go with that. Al Qaeda is made up of rogues that are outcasts from their countries - Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Afghanistan, etc. I would even go as far to say that a majority of the insurgents we are fighting in Iraq aren't even Iraqi - they're Yemeni, Syrian and Irani.

I don't want to get too deep here....

if anyone wants to see the video, go look around in the discussions on fark.com.

I must warn that it is truly, unbelievably disturbing. it really made me feel ill. especially when i think of what that person was going through those last minutes.

That's happened in every war ever. Civilians are going to die, it happens. The fact that you see it happening doesn't change anything and giving up and going home when anything gets hard is a losers attitude. Patton would be dissapointed =(.

I lay the blame on the pussies in the video. They can try that shit with our soldiers, but statistics show that they're about 99.9% likely to get owned trying to kidnap a U.S. soldier.

These two visceral images are icons; symbolic representations. They both elicit a strong reaction but on two very different levels. The beheading represents the irredeemable madness of fanatics. The leash represents a monumental failure of command and policy.

The idea underlying both is a failure to respect the rights of another human being. In one case, their very right to life, their right to be free from psychological abuse.

The leash image is certainly "not as bad" but it exists on the same continuum of man's inhumanity to man - that extends all the way from punching a guy for being a certain race or creed....to mass genocide.

The very existence of the United States is meant to refute this inhumanity. America is meant to be the world's (last?) best hope for the rights of man. This is the underlying ideology.

The beheading hardens my resolve against forgiving the inhumanity of the prison guards. It shows me how truly bad things CAN become in this world and how America shold resist all temptation to ever set off down the same dark path.

Yeah, Al Jazeera is evil. The reason they didn't show the prior video was because that guy fought them, made a big fuss and was generally very defiant. It made the arabs look like the bumble fucks they are so they didn't play it.

Censorship-bomb their HQ please.

A "few bad soldiers" is all we hear of. Dont tell me this shit doesnt go on everyday, im sure its much more than a 'few', just because its not on the news, does not mean it does not happen.

The problem is that America has a double standard, everything they do is right, but everything the so called enemy does is wrong. Dont get me wrong, I feel awful for what happened to that young civilian, and believe that those responsible should be killed for what they have done, but please stop making it seem like the entire islamic people are at fault for everything and that they are evil killers when Mr Bush started this entire thing to begin with. I am not on anyones side, I disagree with war in general.

"This shit" DOESN'T go on everyday. And until you can prove otherwise, I can't do anything but take your comment as presumtion. Does prisoner abuse happen? I'm sure it does, but the extent of humiliation and torture? I highly doubt it.

I will have to agree with you there. The media certainly is playing this up to the point that you sorta wonder who is fighting this war.

I'm not sure who you're directing the comment "but please stop making it seem like the entire islamic people are at fault..." to. But I hope it certainly isn't me, because I don't believe I haven't EVER portrayed all Islamic people being bad.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by forseti-6
[B] Wrong and wrong. #1 Americans don't kill and torture Iraqis. Don't generalize - please, it can get messy that way. A few *bad soldiers* tortured these Iraqis.

What about the "bad" soldiers that kill 'em every day out there in the streets of town or the sands?

I'm not for the war one bit, I think it's gonna get us in trouble more than we can possibly imagine...

This cannot be won by guns alone. The major downfall of this war was the fact that the TV was allowed to sanitize the war to the American people, and only show by the majick of editing, the "bad guys" doing horrible things to our soldiers and civilians.

But our guys are doing the same thing, as proven by the photos. I'm almost 100% certain that there are far more graphic pictures out there of what occured.

Turn the cameras off, quit reporting from the front, and let us fight the way they do... Dirty as all fucking get out. In and out in less than a month if we go balls out and launch every piece of artillery we've got... what about this "shock and awe" thing? It didn't awe them at all. It's like setting an ant hill on fire or knocking down a bees nest.

They are fucking pissed off at us swatting at them, an there are a whole lot more of them than there are of us.

This frustrates me so much, hopefully some of this makes some sense. Sorry for the rant if it was deemed that.

Spike I get what you're saying. We have a few problems at hand though. I'll trying to explain without getting too opinionated.

#1 We have poor civilian leadership in Rummy and Bremer. Rummy wanted to fight an efficient war. Bremer, the genius that he is, fired the Iraqi Army.

#2 Our Army is too small to make this a quick campaign. Again poor planning on Rummy's part.

#3 I believe once we turn over power to the Iraqi governing force, things will increase tremendously. Until that happens, the insurgents are going to continue their troublemaking.

actually, Mr. Bush was a teenager when 'this entire thing began' in the 50's when zionist Israel was given soveriegn control over a piece of land in the middle of the arab anti-zionist east. it progressed further when the US began brokering negotiations between Palestine and Israel. Everytime the US succeeded in persuading Israel to submit to Palestinian demands for land and soveriegnty, Palestine refused, revealing the true colors of arabs in the middle east as jew-hating militants who could not tolerate an unpure non-muslim contingency in thier holy land. Vastly outnumbered and outgunned, Israel appealed to the US for aid, diplomatic assistance, and protection. At that time, the US and the rest of the 'jew loving' west became the enemy of the arab middle east, and consequently islamic militants the world over. insert your random assertions about oil interests and Mr. Bush's passion for world domination, but history is the recorded transaction of facts, and it doesnt lie. islam has always been the uncooperative aggressor...not the US. it all comes down to me wanting my loved ones and fellow americans protected from the hi-jacked planes and thrusting blades of islamic militants. i trust Mr. Bush has my best interests in mind.

Nick Berg went to my high school. I found out this evening. Totally shocking. :(

Bush needs to pull those troops out of there right now.

Forseti, I understand 100% what you said about the problems.

This whole thing either reminds me of the Keystone Cops or the 3 Stooges with Bush, Rummy, and Bremer.

And to bigoldalphamale to "trust that Mr. Bush has your best interests in mind" I'm glad to hear that someone has faith in this guy. Because I don't think he's done a thing for the people of the US that he's not had his fingers crossed behind his back or that wouldn't benefit him somehow.

How horrible is it to start a "war" just for the sake of trying to save face?

in honor of this man and those others that have died on BOTH sides of the conflict. Today, this is my flag.

http://www.evsc.k12.in.us/schoolzone...lf_mast_hw.gif

Prove that it doesnt.

Well said. Macheath's words serve as further evidence to my own personal theory - the Australians really have their shit together, more so than any other people on Earth.

Man, u sure did waste time typing that up, I was talking specifically about todays war in Iraq, nothing about 1950. And of course you trust Mr. Bush, you have been brainwashed.

i refuse to believe that so many of those who constantly chastise Bush about his foriegn policy know so precious little about why the US is there fighting a 'war'. Rhetoric is the tool used to keep simple minded fools in the media, and quite obviously in the general public as well, preoccupied. at what point do you fail to recognize that the fundamental goal of millions and millions of islamic militants around the globe is to end the western way of life as we know it. to spread thier tortured and twisted version of islam by using murder and fear. so what?...Bush's rhetoric called for a search of WMD, but everyone with a clue knows that we are there to eliminate our enemies and supporters of our enemies. afghanastan and iraq being key supporters.

Prove that it does. You can't tell someone to prove the negative. It's like you asking me to prove God DOESN'T exist, while it would be much much easier to prove that he does.

After being disturbed by the Daniel Pearl video a while ago, I think I'll pass on seeing this.

What a mess. My 18 month old daughter is growing up in a totally different world than I did.

I believe this comment is hostile and out of line. Please respect others here.

I too still have faith in president Bush. You have to. He's our leader.

As sad as it is, you're right. But frankly the 90s was a rather "fluke" decade. Sometimes I wonder if we were spoiled by the peace of the 90s or just damned by the constant violence we have come to know as the 20th and increasingly 21st century.

are you implying that the history of the middle east has absolutely no bearing on the current events taking place in iraq and the rest of middle east? that this 'war' in iraq is a free standing event with no connection to historical political and social developments that easily date back to the 1950's? of course you hate Bush...you're clueless.

Your leader is just trying to finish what his dad could not. This war is Bush's way of trying to become a hero considering he has fucked up the country prior to it. And his excuse to go to this war were the WMD's which did not exist. Now that he has fucked this one up completely too, just like every other aspect of his job, he is going to start the blame on Syria and Iran. Bush has already gone to two wars without succeeding, and if he gets reelected he will go to two more. This man is no better than Bin Laden or Saddam, he is a power hungry killing machine also. Now you can call me a clueless bush hater along with over half the nation that hates him also, but it is better than being brainwashed. Follow your lying leader all you want, but, hopefully one day you will realize you are being misled.

You will never understand how gruesome it is untill you see the actual video
http://www.davva.com/beheaded.wmv
You have been warned. Do not click on the link if you do not want to watch

Don't turn off the cameras. I agree. Fight the war the way it needs to be fought but people need to pull their heads out and realize what war means. It's not all clean and easy, the way Reagan made it seem in Grenada and Panama. Soldiers get killed. Civillians get killed. Children get killed. Innocent people become displaced.

If more people realized this a year ago we might not be in this mess. Now that we are, we need to finish what we started. This may not turn into another Viet Nam but it could be America's Afganistan like Afganistan was for the Soviets in the '80s.

Slvrn your hatred of Bush is really making me question your grasp of reality... Lets just pick this apart piece by piece shall we?

In response to the Daddies' war argument:
Bush Sr. went in with a UN mandate, that mandate never called for regime change, nor did it call for widespread military action against the baathist regime. The whole point of Desert Storm I was to get Saddam out of Kuwait. Bush Sr. and Stormin' Norman' wanted to finish the job, however it was not part of the plan.

No WMD's?
There are no WMD's in Iraq? That's interesting because the whole pretense of the war was that Saddam still had not destroyed weapons he had earlier acknowledged having, that is a fact. Those weapons to this day are still unaccounted for. BTW since going into Iraq we may not have found a smoking gun link, but we have found precursors for WMD's and found proof that the WMD programs were still on going, that is a fact.

Bush's first two wars' haven't succeeded?
Well seems to me despite an ugly occupation which was to be expected, Bush has did an amazing job of removing one of histories most nitorious villians from power in a matter of days and with minimal casulities. And what about Afganistan is not successful? Bin Laden is incapacitated, last time I checked no terrorist attacks have taken place on American soil since 9-11. Islamofacist Taliban is out of power. All the road bumps that are coming along politically are to be expected seeing as to we are trying to bring western ideals of democracy and freedom to countries and cultures that haven't moved out of the 6th century.

Anything else that I haven't touched in mindless subjective garbage that hasn't been backed up by an ounce of truth from you.

Listen, the original intention of the war was to find WMD's, and the fact is we did not find them, dont give me all the bullshit, it all comes down to the facts, and the facts are Bush was wrong about Saddam having WMD's.

The two wars have suceeded? Really? Last time I checked Bin Laden was still free and im sure laughing at Bush's pathetic attempt to find him. Also, just because there has not been a attack on America since 9/11 does not mean shit, I assure you this will only fuel the hate that Al-Qaeda has for America as well as other terrorist orginizations, and future attacks are almost certain. America will NEVER win the war against terrorism, it is impossible, all they are doing is making attacks more likely to happen. And as for the Iraq war, all of the people that Bush has killed would have been probably been alive under Saddam, he has done nothing but make situations worse in Iraq.

What Bush needs to do is worry about his own country which has enough problems as is than to worry about others. Iraq was not a threat to the US pre-war, but now will be. They may have put Saddam out of power, but the thousands of Saddam followers are not going anywhere.

There was a lot of talking in that video, what were they saying?

After watching that video, I think there needs to be more bombs dropped.

Saddam had WMD's. You seem like the type of person that won't believe Saddam had WMD's unless you see a news report from ABC with US and Coalition soldiers taking a picture in front of a huge ass missle with a bold 'WMD' written on the side. But the biggest PR the bush Cabinet gave out for a reason to attack Iraq was the WMD that was unaccounted for, and still haven't found.

During the 90's, America has been victim of numerous terrorist attack from Al-Qaeda. Since 9/11, NO terrorist attack on US soil. Take from it what you will, but seems to me all this 'war mongering' is having some effect.


That made absolutely no sense. Firstly, Bush never even took a step into Iraq, and never has he held up a weapon to fire at anyone. Secondly...yeah, Usay and Quday and thousands of other Iraqi military personnel favored by Saddam would still be alive. No brainer.


Are you absolute certain they are Saddam followers and not members of the Al Qaeda organization? I think a distinction needs to be made here. It's not Iraq that we need worry. It was, is, and will continue to be for the forseeable future, Al Qaeda we need to worry about. Iraq (the country) was never a threat, and still isn't.

^word

that video made me sick to my stomache.
i have a VERY close friend going over there in august, and im scared shitless for him. It makes me want to cry. how could you take a man's life like that? do you know the pain that man went through? and for whjat? to help rebuild their ungrateful country. Fuck iraq. these people are sick, they have absolutely NO reguard for life. I cant imagine what the women POW's have to go through if a man is forced to endure this pain. My tears go out to them.

Shouldn't this thread be moved to the Politics Forum?

You are just being a smart ass now. Dont take it so literally, you know exactly what I mean. We all know Bush is to much of a coward to ever go to war himself. Didnt he beg his Daddy not to fight in Nam?

You seem to be contradicting yourself, Iraq was never a threat, yet we needed to attack them? And yes, I did mean the Saddam followers as well as al qaeda. America will end up regretting ever stepping foot into Iraq, and if Bush gets re-elected, you better be prepared for WWIII

Never said we needed to invade Iraq.

And unless YOU intend to make sure America regrets its 'invasion' into Iraq, I suggest you stop with this childish innuendos of gloom and doom.

I dont care what you suggest, there is nothing childish about it. Im not even going to bother with this thread anymore, i dont want to say something I will regret, its not worth getting banned over. You have your opinion and I will have mine, leave it at that.

Observing some of the statements above and in the air these days, what concerns me is how soft and weak-willed we seem to have become as a collective "free world."

All these mea culpas and collective self doubts make me wonder if we have what it takes to overcome an enemy sworn and dedicated to destroy us and our way of life.

Amen. With the country as torn as it is, why chance it?

That clip they show on TV is horrifying. How can a person stand in a room with another person and just take their life. Humans can be absolutely disgusting, vileness incarnate. Although, maybe I don't consider those people human. God damnit, that shit just fucking makes me so sick, and angry, and disappointed, and confused. How was he so calm? The people that did that weren't infact people. Everybody is so in the dark. I understand where all these people are coming from, but I can't understand how the fuck they are coming from there. We're playing games.

The reactions to this from many people are bothersome to me but I don't doubt our collective resolve should the situation become more critical.

There seems to be a tendency for many people to assume that American action in just about any case is wrong, misguided, or disrespectful to other societies, cultures, or ethnicities. Too many people first ask of Nick Berg "What the hell was he doing over there?" rather than denouncing the acts of the terrorists. Apparetnly the thinking is "Well they have no other recourse after all, we invaded them." The answer of course is BULLSHIT there are plenty of other avenues open to them that don't involve murdering people but god forbid we acknowledge the fact that some groups of people are just plain morally bankrupt.

In the case of the Iraqi prisoners, has a single person asked "What the hell did they do to be in prison?" Not that I've heard. It would be interesting to hear the stories of the "tortured" prisoners just as we are hearing the stories of the murdered Americans and "brutal" prison guards. I'm sure at least some of them are guilty of some pretty heinous acts that go beyond stacking naked people up and taking pictures.

And before I get jumped on for "defending" the actions of the prison guards, I'm not. I think it's disgusting. But I'm also getting sick of hearing how wrong the US is and how the terrorists are excused because "they're terrorists and they don't hide what they are" or some other line of crap.

At some point the attrocities exacted against innocents by terrorists will overcome most people's acceptance of their evil acts and we will have a more united front. Unfortunately it will probably take another 9/11 or two before people realize that understanding will get us nowhere.

This whole thing makes me sick. I'm to the point where I don't want to watch the news, or read anything on the internet. I'm sure as hell not going to watch that video. I think it's disgusting that it's even available to watch, and that people will watch it.

We need to get every single one of our troops out of Iraq and Afganistan and any other country that we are in NOW.

I'm just tired of this all. Bone weary tired. :(

BuDDaH walks by you and taps you on the shoulder and then whispers in your ear, "Too late....."

What do you believe that will achieve? Do you think that will stop terrorism against us?

I started typing a lot of shit but it isn't needed in this thread.

Take Switzerland or Canada. Canada is an enormous county. When was their last terrorist attack? Never? And Switzerland was right there in the smack of things for WWI and WWII and did they get bothered? Nope. Cause they're neutral.

I can't even get my thoughts straight. So many people in so many countries hate us. Because they constatnly have American this and American that shoved down their throats. I'm not giving anyone an excuse.

And yes, I think that if we pulled our troops it would stop terroism.

Put our troops in airports. Use them for security check points and all that shit. Have them checking the cargo getting loaded onto planes. Have them checking transport trucks. Have the troops at the borders.

But I guess we put our noses in where it didn't belong too long ago, and it's too late to get out now.


Okay, I guess none of this is really useful in this thread. Sorry guys. I'm just angry at this all.

Hmmmmmm.....Never thought about it that way before.
Americans are not as mean.
Americans respect the dead bodys and what not.
WE have more class but I guess we do have are faults, sometime's that lowers us a little.

And those bad soldiers had commanding officers, who had commanding officers, all the way up the chain to Rumsfeld and Bush. Something this heinous should have been first stopped by the immediate commanding officers, and the info should have shot up the chain right to the top. It didn't. So it's not just a few "bad soldiers" it's also the C-O's who either ignored it or covered it up.

And there's a mistake being made about the anger toward the beheading. We have to remember the culture we're dealing with here. This is a culture that cuts off your hand if you're caught stealing. It's a culture where it is not unheard of for people to be punished for the crimes of their relatives.

And now they watch Americans torturing their own people. What reaction did you expect? They're gonna be pissed off - doubly so because we marched in there shouting to the world how wonderful we are and how morally sound we are and how nice, respectful, and mindful of human rights we were. And then our people do something like this? Exactly what do you THINK Iraqis are going to feel about that?

I agree with you. I didn't actually watch any video, just what they show on the news of him kneeling in front of those people before it happened. I can't stand those little messages they have on the IE, Netscape, Compuserve, Aol sites every day about atrocities being committed everywhere. The relentless barrage of "news" stories is wearing me down, and I don't mean global stories. I mean "3 kids found dead under bed". What are they trying to do to us by showing us this stuff everywhere.

This story though, maybe just seeing it, hurts me so deeply.

Americans are schmucks for building military bases on muslim holy land, and kicking the palestinians out of palestine. Muslims are shmucks for giving a shit about the holy land. That's my narrow ignorant view of the situation.

It's time to quit this shit. There is no God, there is no after life, so fucking stop worrying about that fantasy crap, work on being a good person, enjoying life, and that will be that.

You know what I find most fucked up about this? That we keep sayin "yeah that's horrible BUT...." There should be no BUT. Everything about this is fucked up. The beheading, the prisioner abuse, those killed contractors who were dragged through the streets, the children being killed, the children who have machine guns....

We shouldn't be saying This is bad but what about what we did? Because where does it all end? Theres cause and effect here.

Nobody should try to justify any of this. It's all just so fucked up.

ok... apparently I need to spell things out. I did not say that all Arabs are evil. When I indicated "people", I meant the radical fundamentalists, or the terrorist organization and it's followers, not muslims, or middle eastern people, or arabs.

Who cares what they feel about it? Who cares about their culture? Who cares what we did? Who cares if we should have been able to tell what they were going to do? I don't mean absolutely "who cares", I mean as it relates to anger about what they did.

What they did was the most vivid display of malice and ignorance, the most egregious act of indifference to human life I have ever heard of. There was no passion, there was no dissociation from the victim. He was right there in front of them, a person. I can't respond to that without anger just because it was predictable.

You can give reasons why they did it, but no reason would ever ever justify taking an innocent life.

We are all people. There is no differnce between groups of people other than the rules they abide by. The range of moral character is the same in any group. If it was socially acceptable to do so, I'm sure Americans would chop off the heads of iraqis.

forseti, thanks for coming to my defense. As you can see a few posts back, my intention of the word "people" was aimed at Al Qaeda, not the arab or muslim population in general.

i wouldn't call what the americans did to the insurgents as "torture" but more humliation - and in that their culture has been violated...

to use that as an exuse to excute another in retaliation is barbaric in western society - not theirs...

to touch the breast of an arab woman is death...

what the guards did should be punished to the fullest extent of the law - but remember, it's our law - not theirs...

i do not agree with their methods of punishment but we have to remember where we are - in their country...

as for the extremists - to see an american woman with a leash around an iraqi man's neck being treated like a dog is all they need to rally the "believers"...

i wonder how that bitch lynndee england feels now...

Reading a post in another forum I frequent, someone made a good point. Why is it everything we do bad an "attrocity?" Whereas when the insurgents or whatnot do something horrible, it's only "retaliation?" Sounds like the media is playing it up for US to be the bad guys. I sometimes wonder whose side they are on. They're not reporting news, they're manufacturing opinions and propaganda. The truth is, they're all attrocities - why can't they just report it like that?

same reason its changed from a suicide bomber to a homicide bomber... I'm sure that the Kamikazi pilots would have been renamed into something else in today's PC propaganda machine.

Homicide pilots.... :lol:
I hate political correctness.... it changes the meaning of everything.

I mean aren't *most* bombers homicide bombers? I don't see the reason to call suicide bombers homicide bombers. Does suicide imply something bad on the part of the bomber? Or any so worse than homicide?

during world war II, korea, and not so much in viet nam, news articles and photos were severly censored for security reasons...

but now because the media believes we the people have a right to know only leads to irresponsible reporting in a lot of cases - putting others in jeopardy...

we are very naive believing what we see, read and hear - the media is manipulative adding the "color" to enhance their story...

the guy that blew the whistle may have been irresponsible in reporting the prison abuse to the wrong person...

the person that reported the prison abuse to the media may have been irresponsible...

the media may have been irresponsible in reporting the abuse to the public and not the government...

the government may have been irresponsible in not having the proper authorities managing the prison in the first place...

but when in rome do as the romans do

Many people prefer the term 'homicide bombers' to 'suicide bombers' not because it is a bombing with the unique aim of killing people, but because the term 'suicide bomber' clearly focuses on the death of the bomber him- or herself.

Instead of focusing on the death and destruction cause, 'suicide bomber' seems to focus on the one who did it, and ignore the damage. Lots of people think that's not where the focus should lie. I also tend to agree with it. Perhaps not with 'homicide bomber' but I do agree that using 'suicide bomber' does seem to focus on the person who commited the bombing.

sorry not for me, it implies quickly and easily that the bomber is DEAD gave up his/her life upon detination. Put the sentence together and it makes sense, just read the bit and you're right it doesn't. Headline reads Suicide Bomber Attacks Cafe, does not imply the focus is on him, the focus is on the bomb that exploded in the cafe. In fact, then it truly implies that there is no need to seek out someone else, unlike a car bomber etc, because in reality a car bomber is also a homicide bomber, the focus isn't that it was a car that killed people but the method of attack.

It's just like people to change the language into something silly. I do no DEPLANE to get off the plane, I don't PLANE to get one. I embark onto a plane. I disembark from the plane.

call a spade a spade and stop dumbing it down is what i say.

Thanks for the explanation, makes a little more sense now. I forget which network was using it, but they were using the term "suicide attackers." That seems to be the most descriptive term - accurately describing the nature of the bomber and also the intent.

1: Switzerland housed basically ALL of Germany's gold during WW2. Don't even think they were neutral. After the war, the swiss banks even downright refused to give any back to Jew's who had legal claim to it.

2: People don't get America shoved down their throats. People shove America down each other's throats. If they didn't want them there, nobody would have to work in the McDonalds and Coke and other manufacturing and chain stores worldwide, but they do.

3. We pull our troops out and stop terrorism? Cause it certainly seemed to work after our funding Al Qaeda during the fight against Russia in Afghanistan.

You can't deny that alot of the terrorism today is a reaction to the US's occupation of the middle east, so why wouldn't exiting the middle east end that terrorism? Terrorism in the past was not a reaction to the US being in Afghanistan, so exiting that country had nothing to do with avoiding terror. If we withdrew from the middle east completely, ended support of israel, and quit meddling in their affairs, I think that would probably cut down on acts directed at the US, but as long as there are stupid people there will be terror.

The problem is the whole holy land deal. The palestinians could just all move somewhere else. I'm sure the earth can accomodate them considering they are probably 1/10000 of the population, but no they want the holy land, and we could just invite the israeli's over here and give the palestinians back their shit, but who's gonna move here when they've got the holy land. Tell you the truth I wish I had a piece of that sweet holy land. I'm sure I think just like a spoiled little American.

I have read through the posts here, I have seen the video of Nick Berg. I have also come to a realization. These people need to be gone. The one thing that every American needs to realize is that Nick Berg is YOU. Given the chance, these cowardly motherfuckers would cut off your head. I thought that one of the worse things that I had ever seen was the events as they unfolded on 9/11…. was I wrong. The execution of this 26-year-old civilian made me realize that this is how these radical Islamic fundamentalists look at each and every one of us. This is what they would do to you, your mother, your father, your sister, anybody that means anything to you. Notice that I said “Radical Islam.”

So as you all pontificate about Saddam, WMD’s, how bad Bush is, whether or not we should be fighting this war, understand one thing, they are watching, reading, laughing, waiting and planning the next worst thing you will ever see. There is a big difference between our cause and theirs. We are looking for the next leaders of freedom in an oppressed country. They are looking for the next Nick Berg.

Exactly. Thanks.

As for the necessity of viewing the documantary evidence of the crime, the reasons are the same for the existence of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C. and similar Holocaust Museums in many other countries.

To my mind, it is crucial that we comprehend the event in it's starkest terms.

...lest we forget.

Kamikazi is pretty PC already. I haven't been very diligent in my study of Japanese but I think it means, "divine wind." I'd be cool with that. They should have called them "Suicide nips" to truly be politically incorrect.

that is correct. And everytime I look out my living room window and do NOT see the WTC Towers, I rememeber. I will NEVER forget.

Just because I won't go to a Holocaust museam and because I won't look at this video doesn't mean that I can't understand or appreciate the magnitude. I just do not want to see these things. I don't need to be that upset about the images.

I understand that. I refuse to watch the video. I think just hering about it is graphic enough. Truly gruesome.

I do believe this was a despicable act. I do feel for the victim's family and do not feel such an act was in anyway justified. I do however have a problem feeling a lot of sympathy for this guy. Why was he in Iraq? He wasn't in the military. No one ordered him to go there. He had a choice. He could have stayed in the United States but CHOSE to go to Iraq. He knew he was putting himself in harms way. You rolls the dice, you takes your chances. Unfortunately he lost big time. It was a tragedy, yes. But had he stayed home instead of trapesing off to a WAR-ZONE he would still be alive.