Well I'm assuming he was there for the same reason other civilian contractors are in Iraq - $$. The reality is, you go there and get paid a lot of money because it's dangerous. I still feel sympathy for his family, but you are right. He rolled the dice and lost out. I'm sure he knew the possibly consequences going in, just like everyone else though, he didn't think it could happen to him.

Whoa. He is a human being, just because he did something stupid doesn't mean he should die. Lack of sympathy is what enables people to kill other people. People fly planse into buildings because they can't sympathize with people that allow their government, in essence an extension of their own will, to go into coutries and bomb civilians, take peoples home, with total disregard for the people of those countries, with total lack of sypathy. Yea, they find it hard to sypathize with people that let their government do that, so they fly planes into buildings and kill those people, because if sympathy goes than so does respect for a person's life. I really don't understand how you couldn't sympathize with anybody who is about to have his life ended by a bunch of morons in masks, and knows it.

it doesn't... it brings it to a totally different level. the upsetness moves you more than the "thought" of it.

and it would have been someone else... that's part of the point of the whole terrorist thing.. it's not like if he didn't go it wouldn't have happened. It just wouldn't have happened to HIM, but it would have happened to someone else.

I guess I don't want to go to that level.

With all due respect, I have to say that you are way off here. I sippose that if everyone would have not gone to work on 9/11 they would still be alive, or perhaps if people had not been vacationing in Bali pehaps they would still be alive, or perhaps if the various Emabasy workers over the years had simply stayed home they would be alive as well?

Like I stated earlier, these people want all of us dead, they want you dead. They dont need a reason. I am not attacking you personaly, I just think that you need to think about it before you state the he kust should have stayed home. Isolationism is not the answer.

First of all, I haven't seen the video and don't plan on seeing it. I've read enough descriptions to know what goes on.

Although it pisses me off that this happened to this guy, he willingly went to Iraq as an opportunist. He knew that something like this could have happened to him. I'm not saying that it makes it right, but he wasn't some dude at a shopping mall who was kidnapped and beheaded.

From a lot of what I've read (not just here, I'm not pointing fingers at anyone) and heard (mostly stupid talk radio garbage), Americans are trying to act like this makes the abuses we've dealt out during the war insignificant. Nothing could be further from the truth.

A lot of people were effected by the imagry and sounds of the video. Compare that video to the scenes of marketplaces that were hit by stray missiles. Several missiles that WE launched did not hit their intended target and hit very public places full of innocents (much more innocent than they man who was beheaded since they were just going about life in their homeland). I'm sure that if we had a camera there right afterwards the scene would be much worse. Sure in the beheading case it was one person singled out and knew he was about to die, and the public places hit were "unintentional" but we fired the missiles knowing that it could happen. The end results are similar.

People also commented about how sick it was that people cheered as the man's head was displayed. I'll counter by bringing up a vid that was posted on another thread (http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle5365.htm) in this vid (it's not graphic but it does show an Iraqi soldier being murdered) there is an Iraqi soldier laying face down, either wounded, surrendering, or both. One of our soldiers just shoots him and kills him (from a very safe distance). After he does, the camera pans over and the other soliders are all cheering. What is the difference? So it's cowardly to decapitate a man while covering your face but it's courageous to kill an equally defenseless man from a safe distance.... Of course, I get it.

The Red Cross has been screaming about the abuse of the Iraqi prisoners since they got there. 25 Iraqi prisoners have died while in custody, currently there is no explanation. Suddenly, pics surface that confirm that we have been sexually and psychologically abusing prisoners and NOW we finally are taking actions to curb abuse? The pics have been in existence for several months. CBS sat on the pics till another news agency got them and was going to run with them and yet we're supposed to believe that our President and other senior officials had NO FUCKING IDEA any of this is happening? It seems more like we got caught with out pants down and are scrambling to make it seem like we give a fuck.

People want to villify the "bad guys" a and act like our hands our clean. Our hands are just as dirty. The difference is that the enemy celebrates it while we act like we're sorry only when we get caught playing the same games.

Acording to any reasonable standard of what might constitute some degree of objectivity, stating "Our hands are just as dirty" is an indefensible and completely absurd exaggeration.

i absolutely deny that US 'occupation' of iraq is a cause of terrorism. terrorism against the united states, as it pertains to the middle east, is founded on our support for the jewish state that proportedly fouls the muslim holy land. i said it several posts back...anti-US sentiment among arabs and islam has been with us since the late 40's and early 50's. long before the Bush's had anything to do with politics and events that shape the world we live in. we are fighting wars in the middle east now because we have precious few options remaining. our resolve has been tested and reversed on so many occasions (lebanon and somalia to name a few) that to back down from islamic militants now, could only strengthen thier own resolve to bring down western civilization and infect the world with thier bastardized form of islam which lost its place in this world when the date was still followed by B.C.

we/the US/ Bush is doing what he has to do...what no other country has the nerve or resolve to do...what needs to be done to demonstrate that the US will not tolerate treachorous, cowardly and murderous acts on democracies simple because they support the right for jews to maintain soveriegn control over land that they have battled for control over since ancient times.

i will reserve comment on the liberal statements that this video should not be viewed and that those who do view are sick and twisted. get on the bus called reality and shed your veil of ignorance...its a hard world...and one that is coming to our doorstep sooner than you think. open your eyes, form your opinion with the knowledge of how the real world works and what our enemies are capable of. get these warm fuzzy liberal visions of peace and a unified world of love and cute furry bunnies out of your head and into the garbage where they belong. and then get in line and stand behind the one man with the courage and power to protect us and our children from having our heads removed in the places where we sleep.

-once again...i'm out

That's all you care to comment on?

bigoldalphamale hit it, and hit it hard. All aboard the reality bus.

I don't need to see this video or pictures of the Iraqi prisoners on leashes. I'm not ignorant. I KNOW what is going on out there. I just choose not to look at it.

I much prefer the furry little bunnies, thank you very much.

Who's that one man with the courage and power? Bush? I don't fucking think so. When he goes to Iraq and starts fighting, then I'll think he's couragous.

I agree that to just get up and leave now would be a big mistake, but it doesn't make the war right. We never should have gone there in the first place and we'd be better off now if we hadn't gone into Iraq.

Bush and Co. have totally fucked this up. They should be removed from office.

Yes, that's all I care to comment on.
The rest of your statements can stand or fall on their own merit.

again, i defer to the cute and fuzzy bunny images that the liberal left and thier media cohorts pump into our living rooms every night. the real coverage of the war should make you want to lose your dinner every night. this is war, and for some reason, americans cant come to grips with the realities of it. people die...lots of people die. blood, guts, shit, entrails, burnt smoldering corpses of children held in thier equally blackened mother's embrace. but on sept 11th, it came home and it was real for a few days...there was no denying it then. a few years later, the denial has returned. the cute and fuzzy bunnies dominate the general public. those who know how this really needs to end know where the bomb needs to be dropped...Berkely, CA.

correct. trying to excuse bad behavior by point out worse behavior is just childish if not asinine.

http://img.groundspeak.com/track/log/184857_200.JPG

My fuzzy bunny plays chess.... How do you like that?

(sorry, it had to be done...)

that's right.. well maybe not Berkely but someplace.. hey it happened in my home city once already. I don't get to look at the towers anymore.... except in pictures. The fuzzy bunnies and other softness of the liberals to me is just horrible and a disservice to those that died in the towers and those soldiers who have given their lives. They saw it with their own two eyes, why can't we? Are we better then they are? No.

this is from an entry I made in Art's journal

So basically what we need to do is sit in a chair like A Clockwork Orange and play a loop of a man getting his head cut off? Only then will we truly understand?

That's bullshit.

didn't imply that... i just said that it would galvanize you into solidly into whatever direction you are.

If you are a peace maker or warmonger, it may push you further into that and make you actually take action.

what kind of action? I don't know

for myself, I call up my representatives that tell them how I feel about this. I call Hillary's office at least once a month. I call Chuck Shumer's office too.
It made me get MORE involved in the democratic process.

Okay, I am out of here. I made my points, others have made theirs. Either you believe or you dont. You think this is a just war or you dont, you think that it is Americas fault or you think it is someone elses fault. This board, politicians, the media will not change your mind, your mind will only bend the way you lean. Just do me one favor, dont lean so far one way or the other that you fall on your ass and take someone else with you.

I know exactly what you mean. Our typical war coverage is soldiers shooting (you don't see people get hit) and images that look like an Atari 2500 video game.

My point is that there are a lot of people who after seeing the video or getting descriptions of the video they say that they are reaffirmed in their belief that we are right and our opponents are animals. The truth is that we are displaying the same animalistic traits.

What is particularly significant in that video, IMO, is the way the killers kept shouting "God is Great" in their native tongue, while carrying on their dull-knife butchery and the victim's screams filled the room. There are some details that do make a difference. Perhaps a complete verbal blow-by-blow description might be somewhat comparable to experiencing the document itself. But there's not much, if any, of that available either.

It might, for a day, or a month, or even a year, but you have to ask yourself what Terrorists want... to cause terror, ok, then why do they want to cause terror? Because the dislike us. Ok, now why is that? Because we invaded their lands? No, there were fundamentialist Muslim terrorists before we were ever in "Their" lands, What they have are "Excuses" for being terrorists, not reasons, take away all complaints from the terrorists, move out of all Muslim nations, give them whatever they wanted, and there would still be people running around with backpacks full of explosives. It's been like this for hundreds of years and it will never cease until you remove the leaders and the motivating factors that rile the people to violence, like Bin Laden and Sadam (on a different level) Whenever you have people teaching children at a really young age to hate another race or culture it becomes ingrained into that persons psychie until they reach adulthood and they complete the circle and teach another child the hatred they learned. Just look at america in the 50's and 60's with the race wars, and what has become of it. What America must do is end the circle of violence by leading by example and teaching respect for other cultures and races. We are hated becaues we have become the police-force of the world, how many of us really like the cops, unless you are a cop, we will never be respected at a nation until we can show that we can be a force for peace not totalitarian rulers of subjugated nations.

Or just ignor this post, I had a point, but I think it might have gotten lost in my rambling ...

I'm pointing out the hypocrisy of the people that want to act like it's cut and dry. We're good guys, they are the bad guys. The good guys kill, but only when they have to. The bad guys kill whenever they can.

You can't refute my points and would rather think that we're still fighting the moral war so you say that my post is childish?

Ever since this happened, I've been listening to conservative crap that our enemies are the evil ones and we're just trying to win the war. The abuse, the mysterious deaths, and the vid link of the soldier shooting a defenseless man on the ground (and afterward our "honorable" soldiers cheering) show that we are not on some higher level than the enemy. We are on the same level. The only difference is that they embrace it and we care only when we get caught.

The abuse was not new. We've been talking about it, but never had irrefutable proof that it was going on. There was an investigation, but until the photos came out, so significant action had been taken. Suddenly the press runs the photos and magically we have a soldier being court martialed and several people have been relieved from duty and sent home.

Should we think it's just a coinscidence that these things happened RIGHT after the abuse was shoved in our faces or does it seem like things only happened so quickly because they were caught with their pants down?

Hello? You are advocating bombing an American city? Regardless of your rationale, I find this completely offensive and more than a little disturbing.

It's funny how this thread started out with people crying out against those intollerant fanatics who would do us harm, and has degenerated to the point of suggesting an intollerant, fanatical terrorist act against Americans.

Maybe we are our own worst enemy after all.

I am disgusted. I think I'll stop now, before I write something that would get me banned.

actually no, I wasn't trying to refute your point or ANYONE else's points. I was making my own points. I do agree with you killing is killing, but like the argument of getting an SUV safety accident argument, who would you want to survive after an accident? It's absurd to say "When we kill we do it because it's good." is the same as "We are killing because of the evil American Empire which is Allah's wish" (note the REAL definition of the word absurd: logically contradictory)

But there has come to a point where there's been some sort of action/reaction which has been escalating since the end of WWII. This isn't Bush's fault, it's his reaction to it, and that may be his fault, but the terrorism isn't his fault, and the next evil Presidents to come, it will be the same thing, living in the legacy of the creation of a Zionist state surrounded by the Arab states.

on a typical day, my happy ass goes about my business not even remotely concerned about what is going around me. i keep up with current events, and i consider myself well read and educated, and so when something like this happens...on the heels of this infintessimally more insignificant scandal pressed and ironed for the public by liberal traitors involving some iraqis who had thier pics snapped without their fascist feety pajamas on...i get really pissed off. and then i see the event marred by the uninformed ramblings of those so snowed by liberal media that they honestly think they are right in calling Bush America's own worst enemy and a traitor. the dirtball liberals who run around saying, ignorantly of course, that none of this would have happened if Bush has just stayed home and tended to domestic policy. and so i say...the liberals are going to lose this war for us. the liberals who want to pull out and come home and sniff eachother's asses instead of dealing with the problems that seriously need tending to, that no other nations are willing tackle. and so i say metaphorically, that the problem will be solved if we bombed Berkely, CA...which, if you didnt know, is the proverbial epicenter of liberal movements and the symbol of the american left. i dont know why i am explaining this...possibly because you went and called me a traitor or something gay like that...but for the record...the statement was quite obviously nothing more than metaphorical jargon aimed at keeping the liberals out of the white house. and with that...i leave this discussion...i am obviously vastly outnumbered here.

lol

Yes agreed, but so effective.

I'm not sure why people keep talking about the video of the Iraqi soldier being shot in the street as though it was wrong.

We don't know what led up to the shooting. Perhaps he was doing something that he deserved to be shot for. Yes, he was on the ground and LOOKED defenseless, but I'd be damned if I'm going to leave cover to give a handjob to a wounded terrorist.

bigoldalphamale

i dont even know what to say

its pretty clear you can't take OTHER people's opinions and prefer to kill other Americans?

great, criticizing terrorists when you want the same thing? what makes you any different by wanting to bomb another person just because he's different?

Its not Love it or Leave it. It's love it all or don't love it at all.

What the fuck has America become within its own country?

It's not so much about race anymore but about political ideology?

This entire world is going fucking nuts


As for crackprogram: On a sense I agree that they may never leave us alone forever. But my question is the same as what you posed as a question - its WHY they dislike us enough to kill us.

For over 150 years in our history, they didn't give a shit. This wasn't a problem until the 1970's really and those decades were really when we got involved in affairs which at times we didn't need to be involved in.

Its a question worth asking - WHY do they dislike us when after a century, they didn't.

you're kidding me right? can you read? do you know what a metaphor is? if you dont, then you probably were not able to understand much of what i wrote. i dont fault you for your lack of education. its a problem in our education system. lucky for you, our country caters to and watches out for PEOPLE like you so that you dont hurt yourself or others around you.

and because you cant read it cant fault you for not knowing that radical islamafascist doctrine promulgates violence on any nation the mixes or supports zion in anyway. because we treat jews as equals and support thier causes domestically and abroad (not necessarily exclusively as it relates to israel) we are a target for terrorist attacks regardless of any isolationist policy we could concievably implement.

i will go back to my tilted motors and sports where the majority of posters are educated about the topics which they post on.

thanks for coming out though chief.

wooooo thanks personal insults if i were you i'd edit it beforeits too late

One does not call other members "morons" and remain a member for long.

i have facilitated the necessary edit. i was out of line and my point is as resoundingly clear to the educated without the insensitive namecalling.

Even without the "moron" comment, I find comments like "can't you read" and telling someone that they lack education to be childish.

Can't someone disagree with you without being belittled?

The above posts (while entertaining) are a prime example of why people get banned.
There is no acceptable reason for this kind of childish retaliation.
********no acceptable reason*********
I cannot even tell you how many times I have had to abandon a thread to avoid this kind of mistake. It is easier to walk away, with some form of respect intact.

Spankings all around seem in order for all the nasty children.

i am the most welcoming person on earth of an entertaining educated arguement. its the best way of learning new perspectives and information. unfortunately, what we have in this thread is alot of bad information being passed off as fact and as support for the removal of our president. its the kind of activity that breeds ignorance. some kid comes to the forum and jumps on the thread and reads through to find that several of the posters here believe that this man had his head cut off because the US in iraq as part of president Bush's penchant for world domination. this kid unwittingly takes this as some sort of truth and attempts to pass it off as fact to his friends. no doubt the same process that led many of you to the conclusions you have come to based on what is essentially...bullshit. crack a history book, get with the program and form an educated opinion please and stop the feeding the cycle of gross ignorance.

bad information? breeds ignorance? some kid?

whoa there one second - since when did you decide information was good or bad? because it doesn't agree with you?

thanks but no thanks

you realize who is sounding more ignorant?

metaphor or not when one gives an example of bombing anyone, what does that sound to others?

civil discussion are great but when people bring up insane comments, it drives me nuts

:hmm:

'For over 150 years in our history, they didn't give a shit. This wasn't a problem until the 1970's really and those decades were really when we got involved in affairs which at times we didn't need to be involved in.'

this is your 'information' and it is bad. it is incorrect and inaccurate, and ultimately...bad. maybe even...ignorant?

i offer a wholesale apology to this thread for hijacking it with this nonsense. i also offer my apology for trying to bring accurate, factual, and relevant information. it is obviously not welcome here.

thanks sarcasm?

prove it wrong then

America as a nation was not greatly threatened by Arabs, Muslims, or whatever in that sort in the first 150 years of our history

The explosion of what we call modern terrorism really began late 60's through 70s and on

Prove that we've been the victims of bombings based upon the jihad

Your arguments are welcome but if you're going to dismiss others and insult then criticize without bringing your own proof, then you've got a job to do.

Everyone, let please welcome the FIRST and (hopefully) the LAST ever in TFP's history: *A TIME-OUT*

(too many good people on this thread, so if I can't ban the goose without the gander....)

I am not going to close this thread because I think everyone from this point on, can reply rationally to it.

Keep those emotions in check and stick to thread topic.

Fuck it!!!!! pull out our troops and change the climate there to 1000 degrees via atomic weapons. Send them back to the pre stone-age.

This event pissed me off like no other in recent memory. Know what pisses me off even more? The fact that at a time when we should be UNITED as a people there are political antics, name calling, partisan bullshit, cry baby, excuse mongering, puke in your underwear non-sense galore.

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!!

This isnt going away and it will never get easier. Stop the bickering and bullshit and lets take care of business. Old but it still applies "United we stand, divided we fall" My fellow Americans..... we are starting to fall.

/rant off

Best. Thread. Ever.

There's people on other forums saying that this video is gonna cause World War 3. This video is creating quite a stir!

-Lasereth

I watched the video, and I have a few comments:

The reason people can do things like this is because they do not view the victim as an equal human being. To his murderers Nick Berg was a political statement, not a human being. The same applies to the American who killed the wounded Iraqi soldier; his opponent was the enemy.

The fact of the matter is that cruelty will happen on both sides of any engagement. People will use this video as a rallying cry for both Iraqi resistance and an American drive to crush that resistance.

To those who suggest we pull out, consider what that would do to the Iraqi people. Rebellion would splinter the country into territories ruled by warlords, and the civilian population would be decimated by civil war. The fact of the matter is that our country has a responsibility to end the job we have started, and restore peace to a country that we have brought to war. Our reasons for entering this war are now irrelevant; what matters is how we finish.

I fear that the current administration has not completely covered that end.

I agree with your post completely.

Maybe the U.S. government was thinking too much about winning the war (against the Iraqi army) when they should have been thinking about anti-Insurgency measures.

So everybody agrees it's a tragedy that this happened, but I haven't seen anyone mention the <I>REAL</I> tragedy.

Nick Berg was supposed to head back to America in late March. En route to his destination, he was detained by Iraqi police in Mosul, and handed over to AMERICAN forces. Our forces held Mr. Berg for 13 days, without giving him a reason for WHY he was being detained, nor giving him access to his lawyer. He was finally released when his parents in America found out he was being detained without reason & took it to court.

Mr. Berg was released and went back on his way. Unfortunately, he was kidnapped by the terrorists shortly after. Had our forces not detained him without reason, and provided him access to a lawyer, PER HIS RIGHTS, none of this would have happened.

Obviously the Bush administration doesn't give a flying fuck about democracy or human rights & this is a perfect example of what happens when these things are ignored.

Where'd you read that?

...replacing "morons" with "PEOPLE" in that sentence makes no sense. I can't believe you honestly think that's the only thing wrong with addressing people in such a way.

What's not welcome is blatant contempt displayed towards your fellow TFPers.

Your attitude is disproportionate to your ability to deliver solid debate. When every point you try to make degrades into sarcastic jibes, it dilutes the value of any arguement you might have had when you started writing.

You're not debating anything anyway. You're making a mockery of this serious discussion with your misplaced rhetoric.

Must I remind anyone that a man was brutally murdered- that his head was cut off with a knife while he was alive and fully conscious?Bravo.

So what you are saying is that the rest of the world is composed of savages who are just waiting to strap bombs on their backs and kill themselves. And america is the only civilized nation is the world to stop all this. How? By killing everbodyelse. Truely ingeneous idea.

LOL. Buddah tells everyone to cool it down a bit and the first post following is a "Fuck it, lets nuke em" post. Entertaining reading i can tell you. Seriously though, this video is sickening. Humans doing this to each other is barbaric. In fact war, and the way this conflict is heading is deplorable. Every single human life should be treated with the same respect. One person shouldnt be more recognised and revered just because he or she is white. Quite obviously, the whole affair is creating terrorists, not stopping them. Comments about nukeing the whole area really amaze me. I mean, we can have so much compassion for this poor dude who got beheaded, but zero for the faceless brown multitudes of forign human beings (women, children etc).

That was my first thought in response to this. Truely not the way to go about resolving the problem however, my frustration level had peaked at that moment.

Even those five terrorists that murdered Nick Berg?

I do agree with your statement except when someone proves through their own heinous actions they are not worthy of anything less then death.

True to some extent. The US being in their lands puts us within their striking distance, which for most of the terrorists would not be possible. So there are more terrorists coming in from surrounding areas.
Terrorism will never be stopped. It can however be managed or minimized. It’s in the US best interest to fight terrorism head on anywhere but within our borders.


Emotional outrage. No apology. I have a very healthy respect for life.

"You're making a mockery of this serious discussion with your misplaced rhetoric."

you're unbelievable. reread the entire thread please, before you go spouting off some horseshit like that. myself and about two other posters here are the only ones who have made any kind of attempt to present FACTS. the mockery is in the comments where someone says that anyone who wants to view this video is sick. that's making a mockery of this discussion. someone comes into this thread and wants to talk about the beheading without having seen the video, in all of its dispicable humanity and tries to proport to those who have viewed it...that they 'understand' or 'can just picture it' ... NO YOU DONT and NO YOU CANT. this mode of thinking is the same thing that permits those same people who have no understanding of world history, religion, or politics to come into this same thread and start talking about throwing Bush out of office because he has no idea what he is doing. here's the hint for those people: you're the ones without a clue! terrorism on american soil is not the only thing we are working to prevent...we are working to protect free people all over the globe from radical islamic militant murderers. bringing the soldiers home and returning to diplomatic negotiations with guys who strap bombs to thier chests is a great idea!!! "psssst. its a great idea to leave the terrorists with millions of square miles in the middle east to use as headquarters from which to launch thier murderous operations on western civilization. and we never set foot there again, we're safe! pass it on!" this is what you want going around? then i am happy to be the asshole to come here and tell you all that you're wrong. well you're more than just wrong...but we'll leave it at that.

It's not your views that people don't like. It's the fact that you're being rude. Everyone can express their opinion here, and all the better if you can back it up with facts: but don't be so fuckin rude!

-Lasereth

i'm not an asshole in real life, i just play one on tv!

cant i at least be a loveable asshole? :love:

no. being an asshole is unacceptable.

Just what makes yours arguements facts rather than opinions? Nothing that I see. Stop trashing everyone for having their own opinions.

Look, this video has done exactly what the terrorists wanted it to do: play on our emotions. When you let your emotions rule you, common sense goes out the window. That is exactly why most people shouldn't watch the video. Most people in this country are way too tied to their emotions.

Thousands of people are murdered for reasons much more stupid than this every year by our people. Where's the outrage about that? Why is the death of a guy who didn't have the common sense to get the fuck out of that country any worse than any other death from the war?

So the proper response to a murder is genocide? Sure, let's kill millions of innocent people to "get even" I'm sure that would give us the international support we need. Luckily, even Gov. Bush is smart enough to know that wouldn't be the answer.

Our current approach to the War on Terror is wastefull, both monitarily and in the lives that are lost. Don't fool yourself into thinking that we can just kill enough and the rest will be too afraid to attack us again. Also don't fool yourself into thinking that our enemies are foolish or cowards. They are fighting an effective war.

I'm not saying I know what we should be doing. I don't know. It still doesn't mean that I can't see that we are getting nowhere with our current approach.

kutulu
I already explained this a few posts before this one.

"That was my first thought in response to this. Truely not the way to go about resolving the problem however, my frustration level had peaked at that moment."


Originally posted by kutulu
I would rather more in touch with my emotions than not. Its thinking before you act that is the bigger problem in our country.

without getting into the morality of it, it Nagasaki and Hiroshima did force the hand of Japan to surrender very quickly.

True, but it wouldn't work in this situation. Japan had a central government and a fanatical population who would die for their Emperor. A "shock-and-awe" type demonstration was used because there was a specific person to shock and awe.

From a purely strategic standpoint, that wouldn't work here. There is no central authority (that I know of) governing the insurrection, and individual cells are unlikely to lay down arms just because America uses bigger bombs.

What we need to do is win the hearts of the people. A population that is angry at us will harbor resistance fighters and mask them from our soldiers, making our job harder. This also results in gross acts of stupidy such as the prison abuse incident, which further stoke the civilian population and causes a spiraling cycle that gets worse over time.

I don't know the situation very well beyond what I hear in the news, but I almost feel as if America needs to apologize and open themselves up to the UN. Push for truly international support and oversight. Accept that we made a mess of things, apologize to the international community for being so antagonistic, and request they aid the US in rebuilding Iraq properly.

Once again, I do not see our current administration doing this. In fact, I wonder if there is ANY administration capable of performing such an act.

Please explain that one. IMO, when people are controlled by emotions, double homicides happen when people walk into their bedroom and see their wife fucking some dude. Fights break out when people when morons let their egos get the better of them. Rights are taken away when we let our fear override the Constitution. Wars break out when we look for a quick scapegoat.

It still doesn't mean it wasn't genocide. At least the soldiers that were dying signed up for it. I not going to be the type of person who values our innocents over the lives of other innocents. IMO, that was one of the biggest mistakes our govt ever made.

It takes a big man to admit their failures. Bush is not that man. At least a new President could have a clean slate on this issue with the international community.

Contrary to the belief held by conservatives, Bush is the one the terrorists want in office.

kutulu

Its thinking before you act that is the bigger problem in our country.


I said that I would rather be more in touch with my emotions than numb to the things around me. Being controlled by your emotions is quite a bit different.

The problem is, given the situation you listed, walking in on someone banging your significant other and not being able to think of the consequences of ones actions before blowing summons head off.

I dont wish to veer any farther from the thread topic. If anyone wants to continue this lets start a new thread.

Please explain your reasoning for that statement. I would think they would want anyone but Bush. Bush ordered the invasion of Iraq. Hes not afraid to piss in someone else's cheerios. I dont see how they would not view Bush as a bigger threat than Kerry.

To make it short I'll just give one main reason. The terrorists are willing to die for their cause. Their deaths inspire other fanatics to join the cause. Bush is aggressive and has huge oil ties, he helps to paint the pictures that America wants to take the oil from the Middle East and destroy the Muslims.

"Just what makes yours arguements facts rather than opinions? Nothing that I see. Stop trashing everyone for having their own opinions."

my arguements are predicated on the pieces of middle eastern history i have laid out and the true roots of conflict in that portion of the world. for instance...

fact 1: jews and arabs have been fighting over the land that is israel ever since the british allowed zionist settlement in the region following ww2. i stated that earlier. its a fact.

fact 2: radical islamafascist doctrine calls for violent measures against all nations supporting or cohorting with the sons of zion. we treat jews in the US as equals and support thier causes both domestic and abroad (not necessarily as it exclusively pertains to israel), which makes us a target for islamic radicals, regardless of our foriegn policy. i stated that earlier, it is a fact.

3. i think i laid out some facts in my first two posts in this thread.

i am not going to go and work up a bibliography page for you people....just do a google search for conflict in the middle east circa 70BC or circa 1947ish. these facts were laid out in response to the several posts here from people who seemed to be convinced that Bush's invasion of Iraq is the root cause of terrorism...or that terrorism would somehow go away if the US left the middle east alone...these assertions are incorrect and so i made some corrections.

am i the only one here who thinks its important to form your opinions from factual actual relevant information?

This issue will create negative emotions, simply because it exists.There is really no need to blast each other, and certainly no call to debase one another due to opinions expressed here. If someone feels strongly enough to use petty name calling as a way to express dissatisfaction, just stop posting for awhile.
Count to ten, or sit in a corner, but please don't resort to childish actions as this only makes you and your target more negative. It also makes the instigator look rather foolish to most of those lurking, or attempting to debate the issue with civility.

In short, think before you type. Please.

Where is your fucking heart man?
He may not have been "ordered" over there, but he had BALLS and a HEART and wanted to help out and do his part as best as he knew how. He was doing what he felt he needed to do. Just because he went "trapesing off to a WAR ZONE" does not mean he deserved to die! Some people are willing to take a risk to help others. Would you have symathy for him if he were killed the same way here in the states? What difference does it make WHERE it happened. The fact is that it is a tragedy.

My son is in Afghanistan right now and I fear for his life every waking moment. But I am proud of him for his guts and his willingness to risk it all for others. He has more bravery and guts in his pinky finger than SOME people have in their entire being.
I despise your lack of sympathy and respect.

<a href=http://www.indybay.org/news/2004/05/1680581.php target=new>http://www.indybay.org/news/2004/05/1680581.php</a>


<a href=http://us.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/berg.family.ap/ target=new>http://us.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/0...erg.family.ap/</a>

There's a couple links. This whole side of the story seems to be pretty hush-hush.

There is one bleek future ahead of us, and that is a fact. Is this going to be over, even if we do erradicate every Iraqi alive? Of course not. Holy Jihad has been declared, and I don't think most people truly grasp it's meaning. All of these "acts of terrorism" and violence aren't going to stop until they have destroyed all of the non believers. This is all these people know, and they are everywhere, not just Iraq.
That's the way I see it. If you don't like Bush and gang, thats fine. Come November be sure to make your voice heard. The problem is still going to be there regardless of who is in office.
We're in it now, so it's just a matter of trying different methods to stop it. In the meantime though try to live your lives the best way you know how.

I just tried to watch the video but i could not bring my self to it. just could not do it. It is a sad story no matter what was going on

same here. soon I will have no desire to watch it (after the human urge of seeing gore passes). I don't want to watch it. but I've almost watched it three times, and closed it out before it goes anywhere.

the guy was an engineer traveling for money. random victim...i feel really bad for him.

I've got it downloaded and am very curious what my reaction to seeing it will be - but I don't want to watch it just yet, I'm enjoying being happy and don't want to change that.

I watched it a couple times, but never got any major reaction out of it. I know it's a gruesome and heinous video of a man being murdered in one of the most horrifying ways possible, but it really doesn't connect with me.

I don't know how I feel about that. It doesn't feel right.

Thats very disturbing.

could also just be complete disbelief

I just heard on the radio the state depart employee that reported Nick Berg was detained by US officials has retracted his statement stating is was based on erroneous information.

I did some searching on the net for more information without finding anything. Anyone else heard this?

It does make me wonder if this is truth or damage control.

Alls I have to say is...

This shit is fucked up!

If the administration weren't so controlled by the oil companies themselves, we'd already have a energized - earth-friendly electric car with no pollution and worked like a champ for years on end.

Corporations want a continuous stream of income. Read: Gas powered machines. We could choose to be well past that point at this stage, however the profits are too great to risk losing them all.

A sad end to a life that shouldn't have been lost through this war though. I say put an end to it - already too much blood has been shed.

That's true of all administrations, though - the car companies themselves are fighting this because they have arrangements with gas companies, and the gas companies would go entirely out of business with the rise in popularity of electric cars.