siryn

This sorta belongs in politics, and it sorta belongs in sexuality, but i couldn't decide, so here it is:

For those of you who don't know, what I'm talking about here is http://suicidegirls.com , a site that showcases photosets of punk/goth/indie/hipster girls who get naked. The site features profiles, journals, message boards, chat, news, and literature features, basically, everything that is usually contained in an online community, with interaction between both the models and subscribing members.

Just another porn site? not really. Just another friendster/tribe/myspace? not exactly. some sort of alternative lifestyle freepaidspace? perhaps.

What I seek from you, my fellow tfpers, is not just commentary, but more like analysis of the phenomenon that is suicidegirls. An important commentary within this analysis should be how feminism applies to said topic, as in...whether or not is it exploitative, or whether the environment in which the nudity is presented gives a more personal approach, etc. etc.

I'll express my own opinions somewhere along the way.

sadistikdreams

People like naked chicks.
-People like different kinds of naked chicks
--Big tits
--Big Asses
--Subculture?
---Goth
---Hippie
---Punk

SG is kind of how this site began. Hal offers boobies. People see and like the boobies. But then Hal adds more message topics. People see them. Since people don't JUST have boobies on their mind, they see that they can talk about other stuff. Hal adds more topics, the community evolves. Now, the 4th(?!?) incarnation of the TFP, Hal offers much more to the people than just boobies. Though he still offers the boobies, they are a minimal interest to MANY of the citizens of TFPsville.

Suicide Girls offer the boobies, but also offers a community. It highlights a subculture, the indie/goth/punk/hipster girls. God, how I want to join SG...

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"Besides the noble art of getting things done, there is the noble art of leaving things undone.
The wisdom of life consists in the elimination of non-essentials."
-Lin Yutang

hearts, by d.a.

Skettios

I spent some cash to see what the big deal was a few months ago.

Here's the scoop, real looking girls, for guys like me that don't like your typical blondes.

I don't know about the community aspect, but I do respect the fact that it's run by the girls, for the girls.

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Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

bernadette

i know a woman from another online community who was once a suicide girl.
she quit the site tho because of some politics or some such stuff.

she's an artsy intelligent gal who grew up with hippie parents in a nudist colony.
she's done all kinds of modeling.
i've never registered for SG, cuz well... it ain't my bag, but i've seen a few pics & the front page.

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Skettios

There's a girl in Tilted Exhibition that's going to be a Suicide Girl
I think her name was Dixie. Maybe she'll explain this to us.

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Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

digme

just went there and lost about 3 hours of my life.

I think I'll go back.

lurkette

Part of the appeal of SG for me is the notion that these women are flouting conventional standards of beauty. Granted, many of them are drop-dead gorgeous by "normal" standards, but many are "too" heavy, or "too" thin, or have small breasts, or whatever. Regardless of their body size, type, color, etc., they all seem to be comfortable with who they are, and they have taken charge of their bodies in a way that defies convention. They also seem to be "agents" controlling their own sexuality, rather than mere objects of fantasy, although some of that is in the eyes of the beholder. Granted, they're still pretty people to look at, and I'm not sure if this is a progressive step for women, or just a way to co-opt "alternative" lifestyles into a dominant notion of sexuality, but it's undeniably appealing.

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Strange Famous

Well, I only saw the free section, but personally I just think its another porno site, the "alternative" thing is just their gimmick.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

eawe

A few of my friends have become suicidegirls, i think the draw is the low stress low pressure atmosphere of it, the girls aren't pushed into doing anything they don't want to, and they make decent money at it at the same time, that kind of responsible way of doing it draws in everyday open girls, which are in my opinion by far the most beautiful, so it works out. There's way less of the creepy skeezy porn vibe about it.

ARTelevision

Any move away from the pervasively promulgated and commonly programmed concept of what is supposedly beautiful and sexy is a significant step in our personal, psychological, and social intelligence.

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Strange Famous

I dont see a big difference, people are just choosing one view of beauty over other because it matchs their own self image in my opion. I think people tend to say "oh, I find these "normal" girls much more attractive than the "typical" porno girls" because they see themselves as outsiders and they believe authencity is the most important thing, or else they reject stereotypes because they feel they dont fit in.

I think, still, there is a huge degree of agreement of what is attractive. And at the end of the day, suicidegirls are girls who take their clothes off for money, if you like them then cool, but I think people should be careful about dissing conventional pornstars in relation to the suicide girls, because they ARE doing the same thing - maybe they have to, or really do, ascribe different motivations to why - at the end of the day it's just whether you fancy one look better than another.

Personally, not many of the girls on that site where especially attractive to me, although I didnt see them all I just clicked on some random names - most of the people I looked at had a personal style that I wasnt really into and just didnt have anything about them that struck me and made me keen to keep looking. I prefer pics of girls in some clothes (FHM & Maxim sort of stuff) to nudey and porno stuff anyway, but thats just me too.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

txlovely

What he said
Anything challenging conventional beauty is a step in the right direction.

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Cruel words erode self-esteem like the ocean eats away the shore.

Grothendieck

I disagree. To my experience, SG is real. Nearly as real as the TFP.

The principle, to answer siryn's original question, is this, in my opinion. Here we have mature, adult humans. Sexuality is part of their life. In most lives, people either live their life, and hide their sexuality. Or the live out their secret dreams, but in secret. Why should this be so? Why shouldn't we admit our fallacies, and perverted fantasies?

The answer is probably too complex to sum up in a few sentences. I think there are reasons for this social conditioning, which are legitimate.

Anyhow, online communities allow one to mix one's intellectual with one's sexual persona with less risk.

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Dixie

well, here's my take on sg, although it is probably biased because they're my "employer."

i first became interested in sg a couple of years ago when i was just beginning to get my chuck-taylored, punk rocker feet wet because i was absolutely smitten with the female body. i saw these girls as having transcended the bonds of society and all those power-driven males who said "this is what beauty is: big tits, a nice ass, blond hair, tan, etc."

their beauty is different. it isn't pornographic, it's art. i will be the first to admit that some of the girls have chosen to post sets on the site which are more risque and sexually-provocative, but the site still exists primarily as an outlet for girls who want to celebrate the art of the female form without the constraints of sex and pornography. this is why you will never find any blatant sexual acts being performed on the site. the focus is on the girl, not on her reproductive organs. in my contract with sg, they stress their respect for modesty and encourage the girls to use cleverly placed hands, arms, etc. if they don't want to show the vagina full-on. i think that is a pretty good indication of what they want the focus to be on.

i definitely support sg 100% and encourage you guys to get out there and check it out. personally, i expect to have my first set up no later than april. i'd appreciate any feedback from ya'll once it's up!

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talk is cheap, so i buy every word you said.
scared me half to death, now i'm half dead.

Grothendieck

I, for one, am looking forward to April.

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Prince

Nice idea, and a positive step away from the plastic fantastic mainstream, but for me, personally, the "real" of it goes out the window when they start asking for my credit card number.

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bermuDa

It's a good idea, and in my opinion it's more sexy that they present the girls as a full package with a personality, not just a body.

The question about exploitation, as with any service that plays on sex appeal, is who is being exploited. Are the women being exploited because of the way they look? are they being objectified for their "alternative look"? Or is it the customers who are being bilked for their money so they can interact about these sexy women they fantasize about? I could say yes and no on all counts, cause you could really see it either way. These girls are being paid to strip, but also to participate in this community. The customers are willing to pay a premium to interact with these girls, but as long as everyone is a willing participant and fully aware of what they're doing (not tricked into it), whose to say anyone is being exploited?

I don't know what kind of forums they have going on, but if TFP started hiring models and charging a premium, would you call it "just another porn site"?

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tehblaed

I guess it depends on who's pocket all this money is going in.

Skettios

I agree with what Art and Lurkette have said.

In our society we have grown increasingly towards the idea of conventional beauty, Pamela Anderson/Jenna Jameson type stuff. Blonde hair, big tits, a round ass. While I have no problem with this type of beauty, these are not the only features I find attractive about a woman.

The point is that there are so many forces in society that try to drive us towards some sort of norm. Television with their sitcoms, Psychiatrists with their 'normal' drugs, and Priests and Reverends with their religion, that in the end all I want to do, and many people are in the same boat, is get away from the norm, move as far outside of it as I comfortably can.

In my mind Suicide Girls is one of those things that moves away not towards, and to me, that's an excellent thing.

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Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies.

Frederich Nietzsche

arch13

Thanks for saying that Prince. It's something that should make everyone stop and go "wait a minute..."

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Holo

I don't see SG as real, just the opposite extreme of the female. On the one hand you have the airbrush picture perfect hotties we're all conditioned or at least encouraged to like and find hot, and then you have SG. Those girls aren't any more real, with their gallon of ink and a dozen piercings. That's a very fabricated image, just like the plastic hottie. I do find a couple of them attractive but they do not represent my idea of a "real" girl.

Most are too skinny and dont' really have a shape or any memorable features but their metal and ink effects. Yes, real people get tats and peircings, and that's not my beef. My beef is they come across as being real when they are as much of a caricature of reality and attractiveness as we accuse the plastic hotties of being. It's all fake to me.

edit:clarification.

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I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

kutulu

I agree with Holo. The best real porn sites I've seen are redclouds.com and homeclips.com. They are run by the same people and membership (bandwidth costs have to be paid somehow) is only $25/yr to each site.

In these sites you actually have "real" people. Some could almost pass as playboy models, some are old and fat. The pic sets and vids range from solo nudes to full out orgies. The photography quality ranges from near-pro to VERY amatuer. I think they are great sites.

What's cool about it is that the pics are of who the photographer thinks is hot. You really do see people fucking their neighbors' wives and that is pretty hot, even if the girls aren't always hot.

agball

strange

analog

Um... i'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but that is how those girls look. Every day of their lives. On the streets, in their homes, at their jobs- while they eat, sit, stand, pray, talk, laugh, walk, run, skip, jump, dance, head-bang, tease, touch, caress, kiss, love, fuck, AND... while having their picture taken. That is the "real" them. They wear the "gallons of ink" and "dozen piercings" because they want to, they like to, and it's a form of expression for them, coming directly from their own feelings and thoughts, and not what others think they should do to themselves. They're not getting implants because society says it's hot, they're not getting plastic surgery to fit some mold society has created, and they don't give a shit what you or anyone else thinks about how they look- and that is as real as it gets.

If this is not the definition by which we classify what a "real" person is, then exactly how do you suppose it is defined?

Also, I take personal offense to your comment:
That is a horribly perverse generalization based on your limited knowledge, or ignorance, on the subject. There are many, many different types of girls in this genre, and it seems you may have only been able to see something of a percentage of the whole.

Also- keep in mind that when you say something like this, you are insulting those who DO find beauty in the shape, features, etc., of these girls. Not every girl is for every person. Please take that into account and note the difference between your opinion, and a broad statement.

Thanks all!

Your friendly neighborhood Goth Mod,

-analog.

siryn

While I can appreciate that you just aren't attracted to the "look" of suicidegirls, I must disagree: it is not just another porn site. The point I'm trying to make here is not that sg offers a different "look" but that they accept and embrace different body types - skinny, chubby, scarred, small boobies, big boobies, puffy nipples, pierced nipples, etc, etc. While the goth/punk/indie thing is refreshing and new, the real revolution of sg is the appreciation of a real (that is, variety of) image of women - that their bodies are not uniform, and everything can be appreciated. The community environment in which the pictures are presented, in my opinion, also helps people to appreciate not just the bodies, but the personalities of the girls. Thumbs up to lurkette, who already expressed these thoughts.

Yes, I'm a feminist, but no, I'm not anti porn. I started this thread because I wanted to express my appreciation of sg as one of few positive steps in pornography. I think porn is a great thing, but that the industry has taken a really poor approach at presenting it. In a society that has such a negative view of sexuality, and presents sex as either forbidden, secret, or at least seperate from what is considered normal and acceptable, the separation of sexuality from normal functioning has started porn off on a bad foot.

As for the fact that its a paysite: notice how cheap it is. Bandwidth costs money, models cost money, and running the entire thing costs money. Yes we are all priveledged enough to have free tfp, but running a porn site is a much different proposition. The site is not really run for profit, it is owned and operated by Missy (http://suicidegirls.com/girls/Missy/), who probably makes a living from the proceeds, but by no means is she getting rich off showcasing naked goth chicks. Though she doesn't pose herself, she is a photographer, and also hosts a lot of the suicidegirl gatherings. Hehe, it doesn't get much better than spin the bottle at an sg sleepover.

Holo

__________________
I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

analog

I don't see how the two are related, seeing as the plastic girls do it to impress other people- i.e., false intentions- whereas these girls have done things to themselves because they like, and are not trying to impress anyone. They're just comfortable with who they are.

Opinion, no problem.

Fab-ri-cate: To concoct in order to deceive.

I fail to see the deception here. Like I've said, this is the way they are, and you could take it or leave it and they don't care either way. They've done it for themselves.


So something that is alternative to what YOU define as "the norm" is automatically false, a lie, a fabrication, and not "real"?

If you find that sort of thing unattractive- by all means, that's perfectly fine. When you say they're not real, and then provide examples intended to support your assertion, you are indeed arguing your point to us, not just presenting opinion. Giving us your opinion should never sound like you're trying to sell us on it.

I can't help who signs up or doesn't sign up to be featured on the site. Also, Missy Suicide is the one taking the pictures and picking the girls, and a photographer's portfolio is as much a statement about themselves and their personal tastes as it is about the subjects within. Just because she doesn't have "fat girls", as you called them, doesn't mean the ones that ARE there are any less real or special in their own ways.

You're right, I don't like your opinion. Never said you couldn't have it, but that doesn't mean I can't argue it.

Right now there are entire threads containing opinions I find stupid, rediculous, pointless, and flat-out ignorant- and while I may disagree boldly and debate them furiously, I will never tell someone they can't have their opinions.

You don't have to intend offense to be offensive. I wasn't even truly offended, but when you make a broad, stereotyping generalization like that, it's an insult to those who DO find it appealing. That's the same reason why we don't say "fat girls are ugly"- it might be your opinion (just for example), sure, but it's rude and inconsiderate to others.

I didn't say you had to like them, now did I? I'm debating you on your choice to label them as "not real" when it is my belief that they are very much real, true, and honest in their appearance.

"Niche market"? "Living their gimmick"?

That's their life. There is no gimmick in a person's lifestyle. You don't have to like it- you don't have to love them, date them, or even talk to them on the streets if you don't want to... but if you honestly believe they "dress up" that way for anyone but themselves, or for any reasons but their own...

...well, i just don't know how to convey my disappointment without flaming you. So now i'm done.

WarWagon

Fab-ri-cate: To concoct in order to deceive.

I don't think that this is the appropriate definition in the context he used. I don't think he was referring to fabricated as deceiving, but rather, something which is fabricated can be anything man-made or created by man.

Personally, I am all for SG, and I also have all intent on getting a number of piercings and tattoos who reflect who I am and my own personal beliefs. In Holo's defense however, there are a number of people out there who do what they do for attention from the public in any form, whether it be shouting in public or having tattoos and piercings. Their lifestyle choices aren't necessarily to be different from the norm or express themselves, so much as the fact as they will do what they can to receive attention, much as a porn start would get breast implants and plastic surgery, so they too could receive more attention and further themselves in their industry.

I personally don't believe that this is the agenda of any of the SG's or those affiliated with the SG community, but I do acknowledge that these agendas exist.

Prince

One thing that bothers me about SG is that, for a site that is intended to portray women as "real", it wants to define what that real is. It seems that in order to get yourself on the site, you have to be part of this metal+make-up subculture. This is because the site has a specific audience that it is sold to.

You could put up a web server, call it GirlyGirlz or something, and host amateur lesbian pornography. You could argue that the content of the site was real, that the girls were real, because they weren't pretending to be lesbians, but were simply doing what they do.

It wouldn't be real to me. Notice: I said "it", not "them".

It's not what they do or who they are that is fake, it is the way they're presented and the purpose for it. As I understand it, these girls, or "models", are getting paid. That, to me, serves as a motive, and it is the motive that defines the "real" aspect of it.

Let's turn it around. Why not charge these girls instead? Hell, I have a domain and some web space, and I pay for it annually. Why not charge these SuicideGirls a small annual fee for having their pictures up? Misty still gets paid, and no one can claim that these chicks are doing it for the money.

No, that won't work. Why would these real girls want their real pictures up for people to look at, if they didn't get paid?

Now that'd be real crazy, wouldn't it?

WarWagon

Well said, Prince.

analog

Firstly, I am no stranger to sarcasm.

Second, why give it away for free? They ARE taking risks when allowing semi- and fully-nude pictures of themselves to be used on the internet. And none of them are getting rich doing this, either.

lafemmefatale

SG is a well done site, but it's there for the money.

Honestly, if it was art, if it was about body image and casting away of stereotypes, why would it be
1. a pay site (ok it's not THAT expensive but the price is evidently there for profit)
2. ALL the girls in there are doing spreads where they're eventually nude (unless I'm wrong). I mean, a few girls nude, a lot of girls nude...then all the arguments before stand. BUT. All of them are nude, nay, naked.

The problem therefore is that if this site is based on artistic merit, why are they not artistic enough to portray women with clothes on? Is there a need to display breasts like pornography sites?

The models in there may be "real" in the way that anyone is real, but therefore the site is, as other have mentioned, favouring a certain type of "real" girls. As opposed to made up plastic dolls, now the favouritism is amongst tattooed, pierced, indie/rock/urban/street kids. It's stereotyping one way or another.

To be fair, the objectification of women in this site is not as evident. As they do not fullfill the stereotypical characteristics of a subjected female, it must seem they are empowered and in control of their bodies to pose for such a site. Which isn't true. They are payed. The owners get profit, the viewers get wanking material. What more do you need to be convinced that this objectifies women?

FInally, I have to say I like SG girls jsut as I like porn. To give an insight, I have to admit whenever I see a real jem of a girl, someone who is really beautiful (like Mary of SG) I always feel bad as if they should be beyond this. Logically, it's a flawed argument, but instinctively it means I feel that pornography and SG are, in fact, degrading.

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