Fat people-a racial group. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Holo · 11-22-2003, 09:30 PM

from m-w.com

Main Entry: race
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza
Date: 1580

b: a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race>

I was thinking about how prejudice against the overweight is very similar to racial prejudice, and how fat people are a race as defined above. Let me say I am NOT a PC freak by any stretch, but after thinking of this I wanted to put it out there since even on an understanding and cerebral board as this I still see fat prejudice come up and want to throw out this argument:

Like people of color, fat people have obvious defining characteristics that separate them visually from the dominant race in Western society. They're larger in size, and due to weight gain have differing appearances due to change in shape. Just as black people generally have defining characteristics such as darker skin, fat people have attributes that make them differ from the norm.

The biggest argument against the overweight is that it's a choice to be fat, and it's because the person is lazy. Health of an overweight person is also a rationalization for prejudice due to research pointing overweight contribution to various illnesses such as diabetes. Most members of western society do at least one thing per day that damages their health, whether it be smoking, excessive drinking, eating impure(junk) foods, driving aggressively, and even breathing impure air can cause as much possible cumulative damage as overweight.

This rationalization is but a smokescreen to hide the true fact that fat is considered unattractive due to the appearance of overweight people, just as many racists find people of color unappealing for their darker skin or facial features and perceived lifestyle in absence of any knowledge of the individual. Due to the definition stated above I conclude that prejudice against the overweight is just as racist as hating blacks, Asians, etc.

So why not not discriminate against fatties...they should go on a diet! Ok. Then smokers should quit, alcoholics should get on the wagon, and all junk food companies should go out of business. See the transparency of this argument? the true discrimination is left bare. Overweight people are disapproved of according to defining physical characteristics and perception of personal choice, the same as many prejudices against those of color. I submit this qualifies fat people as a race, since they can't lose weight by wishing for it any more than a black man can be white at will. Even if they went on a diet right now it would be months before they would be the accepted norm body mass. We can conclude from this that their appearance cannot be readily changed such as non-racial groups that are disapproved of such as hippies or yuppies. A yuppie can grow his hair and a hippie can cut his and wear a suit, but a fat person cannot be thin in an afternoon just as a colored person can't be white.

So why am I making a point about race? Because our current social mores don't approve of racism, but predjudice against the overweight, by above definitions a racial group, is a-ok. Why? Even if you don't accept them as a race, why is it ok to be prejudiced against a group for most of the same reasons for which people of color have been dealt discrimination?

Please lend your opinions and arguments

Phaenx · 11-22-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

So why not not discriminate against fatties...they should go on a diet! Ok. Then smokers should quit, alcoholics should get on the wagon, and all junk food companies should go out of business. See the transparency of this argument?

Hurray.

They should, lets start a club. We'll start on our objectives Monday.

(I disagree)

Holo · 11-22-2003, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
Hurray.

They should, lets start a club. We'll start on our objectives Monday.

(I disagree)

Expand, if you would. Do you disagree with the race classification or that fat people should be discriminated against? Your answer is a bit vague, unless that's your intention.

TheShadow · 11-22-2003, 10:10 PM

I think one of the differences here is that it's unhealthy to be overweight. In my opinion, it's a good thing that we're against obesity. We should be telling these people to get healthy and to lose some weight!

Now, if the person is a healthy weight, but still is "pudgy" by our standards, then if he or she is insulted that is unjustifiable. But it still doesn't make 'fat' a racial group - just like alcoholics aren't a race, fat people aren't either. Race is defined as a " group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution". That doesn't fit fat people in my mind, so fat can't be a race, and insulting fat people, while bad, isn't racism.

Phaenx · 11-22-2003, 10:15 PM

I disagree with the notion that they can't stop being an alcoholic, a smoker, or a fatty.

I also disagree with the definition of race, I feel it's important to add the word "geographic" in there somewhere around a persons traits, in other words; not fat people. Websters makes this distinction (A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.)

To be blunt, I think you're wrong, and I think said excessively unhealthy people should change their lifestyles, for everyones good.

Clewd · 11-22-2003, 10:44 PM

I think the question holo is posing is why fat people are receiving negative treatment AS IF they were a racial group while other groups with vices just as unhealthy are not.

I believe it has something to with the consumer society the western world is building. All the advertising that is helping to define popular culture generated by these countries is instilling a superficiality in the people since advertising, for the most part, offers images, specifically of near perfect people.

Being a smoker or a drinker doesn't readily change one's appearance to the degree that being fat does, so, in our thin-obsessed era, I do believe that overweight people are the targets of a disproportionately large amount of criticism and prejudice.

For example: Here in the bay area the college social scene is far more accepting of the drinker or smoker than of the fat person.

skier · 11-22-2003, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Holo
I submit this qualifies fat people as a race, since they can't lose weight by wishing for it any more than a black man can be white at will. Even if they went on a diet right now it would be months before they would be the accepted norm body mass... ...A yuppie can grow his hair and a hippie can cut his and wear a suit, but a fat person cannot be thin in an afternoon just as a colored person can't be white.

The difference is, a black man could not, if he wanted to, exercise and eat right in order to become a white man. He was born black, and should be proud of being black. Just because it is difficult to lose weight it does not mean that you are a separate race, although there are people that are born to be fat- genetic glandular imbalance, very slow metabolisim etc. However, this is a very small portion of obese men and women- the majority merely eat double or more of the calories they need to live healthy. The distinction between race and condition is clear.

Macheath · 11-22-2003, 11:15 PM

The crucial point here seems to be the acceptance of vilification if the person being vilified has any kind of CHOICE about thier situation. In this case fat people are seen as being in FULL control of their body shape while people don't have ANY control over their racial or sexual identity. There is no choice.

But we forget that there are implicit choices made when it comes to racism and sexism. The racist might honestly claim that they will easily tolerate the black man who dresses "white", talks "white" fixes his hair, goes to his Church in his part of town and doesn't make trouble.
The racist in this scenario is driven to fury when the black man CHOOSES to ride on a bus, or protest, or grow a "natural" hairstyle.

Likewise, a sexist might tolerate a woman working in his office; but if she CHOOSES to wear anything other than a modest skirt, she will incur his wrath.

Heck, sometimes there's even a crossover prejudice between race and bodyshape. How's that for making things complicated? A thin Samoan, who ever heard of such a thing? A fat Japanese person, they MUST be a Sumo wrestler.

So in the end, yes if a fat person is highly unhealthy, they would be well served to improve thier health, just as all people in such a situation would - but what possible reason or justification is there to make their lives hell?

And, if you're truly worried about the strain on the national health budget; why not seek out and berate a person who is skinny, sedentary and unfit rather than rolling your eyes at slightly overweight person who may be fitter than you are?

GuttersnipeXL · 11-23-2003, 12:00 AM

Basically it comes down to this, It's a good answer for most situations...It goes like this...mind your own business. Why do people constantly try to change what has absolutely nothing to do with them. Who gives a crap if someone is fat or skinny? Who am I to tell someone on the street, or somebody I know, to lose or gain weight? It really has nothing to do with me or my daily activities. Just mind your own damned business...Think of what it would be like to not have someone in your face all the time.

Also, for a comparison....abortion, mind your own business.,..it has nothing to do with you. It's the same thing. The list can go on and on.

Phaenx · 11-23-2003, 01:02 AM

It's one of those things that is not only someone elses problem, but mine as well. Second hand smoke, drunk drivers, and fat people on an airplane. Is there any reason to be so fat your man tits rest in my lap? Should I pay for these peoples medical bills? No, lose some weight, stop drinking and stop smoking. I prefer not to ignore my problems, or those of America for that matter. I'll mind my own business, but this isn't a private isolated problem.

tokaok · 11-23-2003, 02:22 AM

hurray, lets add one more party to the polarity politics game.

/sarcasm off

there is only one race that matters, the human race

eribrav · 11-23-2003, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tokaok
hurray, lets add one more party to the polarity politics game.

/sarcasm off

there is only one race that matters, the human race

Perfect!

When did we become so obsessed with defining everyone as a victim of something or another? Race, sex, height, weight, income etc. etc. etc. It just seems to go on and on. Those who seek divisiveness like to make different people feel like victims of one sort or another, so that they can make them into a constituency by promising to bring them goodies (i.e. other people's sympathy and money) for being part of the victimized group.

Holo · 11-23-2003, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tokaok
hurray, lets add one more party to the polarity politics game.

/sarcasm off

there is only one race that matters, the human race

Quote:

Originally posted by Clewd
I think the question holo is posing is why fat people are receiving negative treatment AS IF they were a racial group while other groups with vices just as unhealthy are not.

I'm not submitting that the overweight should be treated as a race,even tho removing discrimination from them in the workplace would be a good thing...I'm saying they have many characteristics that define them physically just as racial groups do. I see many think of being fat as a choice still, and my response is that a person of color could get injections and surgery to make themselves more "white" in the time it took for a 100lb+ over wieght person to be thin. I'm saying that at the time a fat person is being discriminated against they cannot change their appearance right away to remove the stigma like a hippie or a goth could.

Quote:

Originally posted by eribrav
Perfect!

When did we become so obsessed with defining everyone as a victim of something or another? Race, sex, height, weight, income etc. etc. etc. It just seems to go on and on. Those who seek divisiveness like to make different people feel like victims of one sort or another, so that they can make them into a constituency by promising to bring them goodies (i.e. other people's sympathy and money) for being part of the victimized group.

To end the treatment as a second class citizen is "goodies"? It's not about sympathy...it's about seeing every person as potentially equal just like we are expected to do with people of color. You don't know the 300lb guy you see walking down the street. Go to some warehouses or other hard manual labor...you'll find fat guys that can do more physical labor than many unfit skinny people. I've seen many "fat" people in better shape than a rail thin smoker. I'm saying we are expected to not judge a colored person by looking at them but by their actions. I believe fat people should be accorded the same.

Psivage · 11-23-2003, 09:32 AM

I'm fat, 242 pound of pure flubby fat. Do I want to be fat, no. Do I excerise, yes, I cut down eating at McDonalds, I stop drinking pop. I lost 10 pounds, but yet I have not be able to break the 239 barrier try as I much I can't do it. I taken steroid for the last ten year, because of a kidney transplant. My body is fucked up. Some people try as they might can't lose weight, am I another race, no. I'm just fat.

taliendo · 11-23-2003, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaenx
It's one of those things that is not only someone elses problem, but mine as well. Second hand smoke, drunk drivers, and fat people on an airplane. Is there any reason to be so fat your man tits rest in my lap? Should I pay for these peoples medical bills? No, lose some weight, stop drinking and stop smoking. I prefer not to ignore my problems, or those of America for that matter. I'll mind my own business, but this isn't a private isolated problem.

I've been fat all my life. At my heaviest I was 328lbs, when I was 18 years old. Now, 22 -- I weigh in at 242lbs.

Ok, now that I've justified my opinion, here it is - You can't make fat people lose weight by telling them that they're fat. They know that they're fat, they even know that its unhealthy and that they're probably on their way to type 2 diabetes or a massive coronary. Fat people will only decide to lose weight if they want to. Its as simple as that.

America is a country of gluttons, I don't care what your vice is, if you're American I'm betting that you're gluttonous about some aspect of life. The problem is your not going to get the smokers, drinker, and fatties to change by screaming at them or belittling them. Statistics aren't going to work. They're probably going to say 'fuck it.' I know, I did.

motdakasha · 11-23-2003, 07:41 PM

There are biological factors (diseases, hereditary, etc.) that make it physically impossible for some people to lose weight no matter how much they diet or exercise. So, as much as people like to think that if they made obese people exercise more and eat less, it won't work for every obese person. I don't see it as a valid argument.

It's discrimination and it's still considered acceptable. Movies like Shallow Hal are considered progressive in thought because it shows obese people in a "positive" light. But did you watch the movie? Did you really watch it? If you did, you would notice that it wasn't the fat person Hal fell in love with, but a pretty blonde bombshell stuck inside an obese woman's body. Did you notice the non-stop fat jokes? Did you think it was funny, or did you take offense? How is that progressive?

WarWagon · 11-23-2003, 08:57 PM

Exactly. To assume that all people who are overweight can just lose weight through regular diet and exercise is ridiculous. There are a NUMBER of biological factors which affect your weight and other bodily functions directly, which are out of those peoples' control.

emphant · 11-24-2003, 12:11 AM

I realize that some people are built bigger with slower metabolisms to boot. However, I don't see how you can avoid losing weight if you eat right and excersise. If it's tough, can't you just eat even better and excersise more?

I definatly could be wrong, but I don't see why you couldn't just do more.

skysooner · 11-24-2003, 07:31 AM

I don't blame people for being fat. I certainly had ballooned up slowly over about 12 years (from 185 to around 249). I didn't look huge, but I certainly didn't look as good as I could. I was just like others in that I knew it was unhealthy, etc. I'm not sure what it was that finally kicked in for me. The doctor telling me I was on the verge of diabetes if I didn't do something was part of it. My wife losing 20 lbs and looking fantastic was the other. Either way, I went on a diet around June of this year and weighed in at 193 last Saturday. I still have about 19 lbs to get to where I want to be. It is a hard road, and everything is designed to make you fail (fast food restaurants, etc.). Like someone said, the US is a gluttonous society. It is hard to buck the norm.

WarWagon · 11-24-2003, 09:07 AM

A family member of mine is very overweight. Having been diagnosed with thyroid cancer and having it removed, her metabolism lays solely on her medication. She eats very, very little, but still gains weight as the result of these hormonal issues. She gets some exercise, but is extremely difficult due to the health issues and extreme fatigue caused by her treatment. Doctors have told her that the only possible way they can forsee her bringing her weight down is through gastric bypass, but she must wait until all tests are clear, her hormones have stabilized, and she fully recovers internally from previous surgeries.

pocon1 · 11-24-2003, 09:33 AM

A few(very few) people have hormonal issues or medical problems with losing weight. That does not excuse the other 95% of the fat people. I don't got around attcking fat people, but if someone tries to use their weight as an excuse than I will call them on it. Diet and exercise are the key. Its hard for you? so what. Work harder. You can always find someone who has an advantage over you. Doesn't mean that you quit. Some people have a faster metabolism? they are lucky. You must do more work. And fat people are not a racial category. You are not born fat. You become fat. If I eat Indian food all my life, my pale Irish skin will not turn the color of curry and saffron. If I eat fat all of my life, I will get fat. One more thing, for those who say you can't lose weight. Do you see fat people on the news in war-torn countries and in areas of famine? No, because those people are in a calorie deficit. You can lose weight, if you are willing to go into calorie deficit.

sixate · 11-24-2003, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by WarWagon
A family member of mine is very overweight. Having been diagnosed with thyroid cancer and having it removed, her metabolism lays solely on her medication. She eats very, very little, but still gains weight as the result of these hormonal issues. She gets some exercise, but is extremely difficult due to the health issues and extreme fatigue caused by her treatment. Doctors have told her that the only possible way they can forsee her bringing her weight down is through gastric bypass, but she must wait until all tests are clear, her hormones have stabilized, and she fully recovers internally from previous surgeries.

I understand your point, but I'll bet my life on the fact that not even 2% of overweight people have a health issue. Most people can lose weight, but chose not to. If you have no health problems it's impossible to gain weight if you burn more calories than you take in. Eating right and proper exercise does work! I helped a dude I work with lose about 65 pounds last year. He's 31 and was getting ready to have his first kid. He knew that I work out a lot so he asked me for some suggestions. I got him to stop eating junk at work, and at home. He went and played hoops with me, and every day during our lunch break we would go on a 3 mile jog. There were a few times I would see him get junk out of the food machines at work, and I would knock it out of his hand and bitch him out. I told him if he wanted my help then he better do what I said or I was done helping him..... I said it in a much more ignorant way than that. Because he wanted help he listened, and right now he's 65 pounds lighter, and he's very active and he's just happy that he's gonna be able to play with his kid. This is a guy who has been overweight damn near his entire life, and said he tried everything, but after I got to him he realized he never did anything that would actually help him lose weight.... Moral of the story: Most people have no clue what kind of work it takes to lose weight once you've been overweight for an extended period of time. It takes discipline, and a lot of hard work. It's extremely hard for people who have been extremely lazy for years to change that habit. I'll bet my life that if people did what I did to stay healthy nobody would be overweight, unless they had a medical issue.

For the record, I agree 100% with Phaenx!

ARTelevision · 11-24-2003, 09:59 AM

I guess I figure that the problem of overweight is a problem for the overweight people.

The problem for the rest of us is our prejudice against them.
We can stand to work on that.

bermuDa · 11-24-2003, 10:02 AM

I only make fat jokes about my skinny friends.

I try not to discriminate against larger folk, but they don't just wake up fat one day. Sure there are exceptions that can't help but be obese for a valid medical reason (and for the sake of argument I am not addressing this group, so please don't try to pidgeonhole me about whatever case of hereditary obesity or an overactive thyroid gland, I'm talking about the people who make themselves fat), but a lot of fat people are so by their own habits. For a lot of people it's hard to lose weight once it's been put on, but how hard would it have been to look in the mirror while they were putting the weight on and say "there's something about my life that I should change"? On a side note, people who gain a lot of weight then turn around and try to sue McDonalds or whatever totally piss me off, they didn't object to the saturated fats and oils when they were shoving them down their own gullet.

Quote:

Overweight people are disapproved of according to defining physical characteristics and perception of personal choice, the same as many prejudices against those of color.

The first part I agree with, fat people are discriminated against because of the way our society perceives beauty. America is one of the only countries in the world where it's generally considered unattractive to be big. But the second part I don't get, you say it's a personal choice but in the next sentence you say

Quote:

I submit this qualifies fat people as a race, since they can't lose weight by wishing for it any more than a black man can be white at will.

Losing weight may not be an overnight undertaking, but neither is GETTING fat. And you want to classify fat people as a race by referencing the way they're discriminated? In that case geeks, jocks, loners, stoners, and crackheads should be classified as a race, since they can't change their body type or habits overnight or simply by wishing it...

Race is a man-made classification that exists to put up walls between us and people who look differently, it serves no purpose other than to clarify what group of people is getting picked on for which reasons. Instead of trying to put up more walls around people by creating more "races", why don't we tear down the word; it's only use is for bigotry.

raeanna74 · 11-24-2003, 11:28 AM

I usually don't make a distinction. There are times that I dislike the people who are fat and expect everyone else to make exceptions for them. For example: I recently heard of a person who was too fat to sit in one seat in an airplane - complaining that the seats were so terribly small and even told the airline that they needed to make their seats larger. To make their seats larger would cause so many problems for EVERYONE and the seats aren't' that narrow. I'm of average build and weight for a woman - 5'5" 145lbs and was quite comfortable in the seats - besides having to sit for a long time anyway. If you can't control your weight for a medical reason then Get a Dr's note saying that you have special needs (I know it can be done) and ask for the seats they've reserved for handicapped or those with special needs. Don't expect them to go out of their and everyone elses way to accomodate you otherwise.

I have a mother-in-law that is exceptionally large. I am very polite and pleasant to her and we get along well. She has struggled with her weight for years and finally had to go on blood pressure medication. When that happened she went to another specialist and pushed to get help. She's finally gotten help for a number of medical conditions (including one that affects the muscles called Cocksackle Disease) and has lost 50 lbs in the past 6-8 months. She finally had enough motivation and finally found a Dr who would help her. I know from seeing her struggle that it isn't an easy task but tell me some life change that IS easy. Any?

I am polite to people who are obese but I dislike any time that they or any other "minority" group expect special treatment. If they want to be equal then ACT equal. I'm excluding the handicapped from this statement. I will go out of my way to help someone who really does need it.

water_boy1999 · 11-25-2003, 11:21 AM

I am with you sixate, phaenx and bermuDa. Good points. I grew up watching my mom bitch and moan about being too fat. Don't get me wrong....I love my mom to death, but she has a problem and I grew up listening to it. Sure, she has tried the Yo-Yo diets, the working out, etc.....but I would always catch her in the kitchen with a spoon if icecream in her mouth. So, why all the complaining when she is doing it to herself? What I can't stand is people who complain about their weight issues, then I turn around to see a cheesburger in their mouth. I think the problem lies in lack of education. These people know how to be obese and they are doing a great job at it. What they don't know how to do is maintain a healthy lifestyle that keeps their caloric intake at a manageable level.

Obesity should not be an excuse for categorical classification, nor should it be an excuse for discrimination. The majority of fat people (excluding people with diabetes or other fat related diseases) are fat because of a symptom to a problem. Black people aren't black because they have a categorical problem. They are black because they were born that way and being black isn't a health problem. Fat people were not born fat. They are that way either due to the small population of people who have health issues, or they don't know how (too lazy) to do anything about it.

RHix613 · 11-26-2003, 06:00 AM

I don't believe that fat people (or obese for the politically correct folks) should be a racial group. Being part of those labeled fat I realilze that I wasn't always fat and hopefully this latest fad diet will take the fat label off of me.

So, which other racial group can people join or leave of their own accord. I don't think there are any out there.

Destrox · 11-26-2003, 08:58 AM

A racial group ? Hell No.

A fault in thier own ways, yes.

Hense, I will still look down upon all fat people untill they can prove to me that they are trying or it REALLY is a medical that they cant lose the weight.

water_boy1999 · 11-26-2003, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Destrox
A racial group ? Hell No.

A fault in thier own ways, yes.

Hense, I will still look down upon all fat people untill they can prove to me that they are trying or it REALLY is a medical that they cant lose the weight.

Shame on you for looking down on fat people. Do you look down upon different races as well? Blacks? Chinese? Hispanics? How about different religions or belief systems? I made comments to the fact that fat people might not know exactly how to lose weight and keep it off.....a sense of lack of education in this area.

It's comments like yours that prove to me that people are just as uneducated about compassion and caring when it comes to things they don't understand. I know people are entitled to their opinion, but Dude.....get a clue!

Nhanced1 · 11-26-2003, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RHix613
I don't believe that fat people (or obese for the politically correct folks) should be a racial group. Being part of those labeled fat I realilze that I wasn't always fat and hopefully this latest fad diet will take the fat label off of me.

So, which other racial group can people join or leave of their own accord. I don't think there are any out there.

Man, with the latest surgical technolgies, you could make a fat man into a skinny man, a white man into a black man, a puerto rican into an irishman. Look at Michael Jackson, it can be done, no guarantee that it will look good, but it can be done. So, I say, it comes down to money. If I could afford a trainer, chef, and surgery, your damn straight that I would be thin, but I don't have any money, so I'm gonna have meals off the 99cent menu, and eat ramen, because thats what I can afford. To all the people that will ever look down on me because I am fat, Fuck em, Ill sit on em. and then Ill take their money.

raeanna74 · 11-26-2003, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nhanced1
... so I'm gonna have meals off the 99cent menu, and eat ramen, because thats what I can afford...

I know how it can be when money is tight. Do you have any idea how little a head of lettuce costs though? How about just simply eating right instead of eating fatty fast food?

Holo · 11-26-2003, 12:30 PM

Thanks for all the replies. I still see a lot of "their own fault" finger pointing tho and the expectation to lose weight. Problem is making fat people feel 2nd class do not bolster them to change themselves in a positive way. The only self-destructive group that is looked down on about as much as the overweight are smokers. I have heard guys saying they wouldn't date a smoker, but that's mainly because of the ashtray breath.

However, smokers are still more widely accepted and sympathized with by many with in light of all the bannings of smoking in public areas. Fat people have no such sympathy and even many who feel sympathy say things like "they don't get fat in one day ." There are other illnesses that contribute to overweight greatly as well such as mental illness. Many fat people are depressed and deal by eating things that make them feel good. Not too much different from people who drink or smoke pot. It's not necessarily an addiction for many just a coping mechanism. When you feel like shit, buy a bag of weed. Just replace weed with "ice cream" or "Little Debbie" Cheaper than beer. Some people respond emotionally to taste stimuli- it goes back to the fact we're all different. What is pain for one is pleasure to another.

I don't think fat people should any more special treatment than anyone else who's different. If I was fat enough to take up two seats in an airplane I'd pay for two seats. I bet Shaq doesn't fit in those seats and you can't say he's fat. But I also think people should recognize that there are mental illnesses such as depression that make many fat people seek relief in food. When you make them feel like shit you are making the problem you despise even worse. Depressed overweight people aren't gonna change any faster with more stress lumped on them. Losing weight to a depressed p[erson is generally lower on the list of issues. It's an effect of a very differing cause.

I'm just saying to remember you never really know a person until you get to know them. There are so many kind, generous, funny, friendly and in some cases sexy fat people. If your policy is "innocent till proven asshole" with a black person or Hispanic or East Indian, then why not with a fat person?

11-22-2003, 09:30 PM	#1 (permalink)
Holo A Real American	Fat people-a racial group. from m-w.com Main Entry: race Function: noun Etymology: Middle French, generation, from Old Italian razza Date: 1580 b: a class or kind of people unified by community of interests, habits, or characteristics <the English race> I was thinking about how prejudice against the overweight is very similar to racial prejudice, and how fat people are a race as defined above. Let me say I am NOT a PC freak by any stretch, but after thinking of this I wanted to put it out there since even on an understanding and cerebral board as this I still see fat prejudice come up and want to throw out this argument: Like people of color, fat people have obvious defining characteristics that separate them visually from the dominant race in Western society. They're larger in size, and due to weight gain have differing appearances due to change in shape. Just as black people generally have defining characteristics such as darker skin, fat people have attributes that make them differ from the norm. The biggest argument against the overweight is that it's a choice to be fat, and it's because the person is lazy. Health of an overweight person is also a rationalization for prejudice due to research pointing overweight contribution to various illnesses such as diabetes. Most members of western society do at least one thing per day that damages their health, whether it be smoking, excessive drinking, eating impure(junk) foods, driving aggressively, and even breathing impure air can cause as much possible cumulative damage as overweight. This rationalization is but a smokescreen to hide the true fact that fat is considered unattractive due to the appearance of overweight people, just as many racists find people of color unappealing for their darker skin or facial features and perceived lifestyle in absence of any knowledge of the individual. Due to the definition stated above I conclude that prejudice against the overweight is just as racist as hating blacks, Asians, etc. So why not not discriminate against fatties...they should go on a diet! Ok. Then smokers should quit, alcoholics should get on the wagon, and all junk food companies should go out of business. See the transparency of this argument? the true discrimination is left bare. Overweight people are disapproved of according to defining physical characteristics and perception of personal choice, the same as many prejudices against those of color. I submit this qualifies fat people as a race, since they can't lose weight by wishing for it any more than a black man can be white at will. Even if they went on a diet right now it would be months before they would be the accepted norm body mass. We can conclude from this that their appearance cannot be readily changed such as non-racial groups that are disapproved of such as hippies or yuppies. A yuppie can grow his hair and a hippie can cut his and wear a suit, but a fat person cannot be thin in an afternoon just as a colored person can't be white. So why am I making a point about race? Because our current social mores don't approve of racism, but predjudice against the overweight, by above definitions a racial group, is a-ok. Why? Even if you don't accept them as a race, why is it ok to be prejudiced against a group for most of the same reasons for which people of color have been dealt discrimination? Please lend your opinions and arguments __________________ I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince

11-22-2003, 10:10 PM	#4 (permalink)
TheShadow Crazy Location: Vancouver, Canada	I think one of the differences here is that it's unhealthy to be overweight. In my opinion, it's a good thing that we're against obesity. We should be telling these people to get healthy and to lose some weight! Now, if the person is a healthy weight, but still is "pudgy" by our standards, then if he or she is insulted that is unjustifiable. But it still doesn't make 'fat' a racial group - just like alcoholics aren't a race, fat people aren't either. Race is defined as a " group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution". That doesn't fit fat people in my mind, so fat can't be a race, and insulting fat people, while bad, isn't racism. __________________ You know that song that goes like...

11-22-2003, 10:15 PM	#5 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	I disagree with the notion that they can't stop being an alcoholic, a smoker, or a fatty. I also disagree with the definition of race, I feel it's important to add the word "geographic" in there somewhere around a persons traits, in other words; not fat people. Websters makes this distinction (A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.) To be blunt, I think you're wrong, and I think said excessively unhealthy people should change their lifestyles, for everyones good. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy Last edited by Phaenx; 11-22-2003 at 10:19 PM..

11-22-2003, 10:44 PM	#6 (permalink)
Clewd Upright Location: Under the warm California sun	I think the question holo is posing is why fat people are receiving negative treatment AS IF they were a racial group while other groups with vices just as unhealthy are not. I believe it has something to with the consumer society the western world is building. All the advertising that is helping to define popular culture generated by these countries is instilling a superficiality in the people since advertising, for the most part, offers images, specifically of near perfect people. Being a smoker or a drinker doesn't readily change one's appearance to the degree that being fat does, so, in our thin-obsessed era, I do believe that overweight people are the targets of a disproportionately large amount of criticism and prejudice. For example: Here in the bay area the college social scene is far more accepting of the drinker or smoker than of the fat person. __________________ LiuGuberlorious

11-23-2003, 12:00 AM	#9 (permalink)
GuttersnipeXL Giggity Giggity!! Location: N'York	Basically it comes down to this, It's a good answer for most situations...It goes like this...mind your own business. Why do people constantly try to change what has absolutely nothing to do with them. Who gives a crap if someone is fat or skinny? Who am I to tell someone on the street, or somebody I know, to lose or gain weight? It really has nothing to do with me or my daily activities. Just mind your own damned business...Think of what it would be like to not have someone in your face all the time. Also, for a comparison....abortion, mind your own business.,..it has nothing to do with you. It's the same thing. The list can go on and on. __________________ When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. HST Last edited by GuttersnipeXL; 11-23-2003 at 12:04 AM..

11-22-2003, 11:15 PM	#8 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	The crucial point here seems to be the acceptance of vilification if the person being vilified has any kind of CHOICE about thier situation. In this case fat people are seen as being in FULL control of their body shape while people don't have ANY control over their racial or sexual identity. There is no choice. But we forget that there are implicit choices made when it comes to racism and sexism. The racist might honestly claim that they will easily tolerate the black man who dresses "white", talks "white" fixes his hair, goes to his Church in his part of town and doesn't make trouble. The racist in this scenario is driven to fury when the black man CHOOSES to ride on a bus, or protest, or grow a "natural" hairstyle. Likewise, a sexist might tolerate a woman working in his office; but if she CHOOSES to wear anything other than a modest skirt, she will incur his wrath. Heck, sometimes there's even a crossover prejudice between race and bodyshape. How's that for making things complicated? A thin Samoan, who ever heard of such a thing? A fat Japanese person, they MUST be a Sumo wrestler. So in the end, yes if a fat person is highly unhealthy, they would be well served to improve thier health, just as all people in such a situation would - but what possible reason or justification is there to make their lives hell? And, if you're truly worried about the strain on the national health budget; why not seek out and berate a person who is skinny, sedentary and unfit rather than rolling your eyes at slightly overweight person who may be fitter than you are?

11-23-2003, 01:02 AM	#10 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	It's one of those things that is not only someone elses problem, but mine as well. Second hand smoke, drunk drivers, and fat people on an airplane. Is there any reason to be so fat your man tits rest in my lap? Should I pay for these peoples medical bills? No, lose some weight, stop drinking and stop smoking. I prefer not to ignore my problems, or those of America for that matter. I'll mind my own business, but this isn't a private isolated problem. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

11-23-2003, 02:22 AM	#11 (permalink)
tokaok Crazy Location: Canada	hurray, lets add one more party to the polarity politics game. /sarcasm off there is only one race that matters, the human race

11-23-2003, 09:32 AM	#14 (permalink)
Psivage Psycho	I'm fat, 242 pound of pure flubby fat. Do I want to be fat, no. Do I excerise, yes, I cut down eating at McDonalds, I stop drinking pop. I lost 10 pounds, but yet I have not be able to break the 239 barrier try as I much I can't do it. I taken steroid for the last ten year, because of a kidney transplant. My body is fucked up. Some people try as they might can't lose weight, am I another race, no. I'm just fat.

11-23-2003, 07:41 PM	#16 (permalink)
motdakasha Hiya Puddin'! Miss me? Location: Silicon Valley, CA	There are biological factors (diseases, hereditary, etc.) that make it physically impossible for some people to lose weight no matter how much they diet or exercise. So, as much as people like to think that if they made obese people exercise more and eat less, it won't work for every obese person. I don't see it as a valid argument. It's discrimination and it's still considered acceptable. Movies like Shallow Hal are considered progressive in thought because it shows obese people in a "positive" light. But did you watch the movie? Did you really watch it? If you did, you would notice that it wasn't the fat person Hal fell in love with, but a pretty blonde bombshell stuck inside an obese woman's body. Did you notice the non-stop fat jokes? Did you think it was funny, or did you take offense? How is that progressive? __________________ =^-^= motdakasha =^-^= Just Google It. BA Psychology & Photography (I'm not going psychoanalyze you nor will I let you cry on my shoulder. Have a nice day.)

11-23-2003, 08:57 PM	#17 (permalink)
WarWagon Loser	Exactly. To assume that all people who are overweight can just lose weight through regular diet and exercise is ridiculous. There are a NUMBER of biological factors which affect your weight and other bodily functions directly, which are out of those peoples' control.

11-24-2003, 12:11 AM	#18 (permalink)
emphant Crazy Location: Meeshagain	I realize that some people are built bigger with slower metabolisms to boot. However, I don't see how you can avoid losing weight if you eat right and excersise. If it's tough, can't you just eat even better and excersise more? I definatly could be wrong, but I don't see why you couldn't just do more.

11-24-2003, 07:31 AM	#19 (permalink)
skysooner Registered User Location: Oklahoma	I don't blame people for being fat. I certainly had ballooned up slowly over about 12 years (from 185 to around 249). I didn't look huge, but I certainly didn't look as good as I could. I was just like others in that I knew it was unhealthy, etc. I'm not sure what it was that finally kicked in for me. The doctor telling me I was on the verge of diabetes if I didn't do something was part of it. My wife losing 20 lbs and looking fantastic was the other. Either way, I went on a diet around June of this year and weighed in at 193 last Saturday. I still have about 19 lbs to get to where I want to be. It is a hard road, and everything is designed to make you fail (fast food restaurants, etc.). Like someone said, the US is a gluttonous society. It is hard to buck the norm.

11-24-2003, 09:07 AM	#20 (permalink)
WarWagon Loser	A family member of mine is very overweight. Having been diagnosed with thyroid cancer and having it removed, her metabolism lays solely on her medication. She eats very, very little, but still gains weight as the result of these hormonal issues. She gets some exercise, but is extremely difficult due to the health issues and extreme fatigue caused by her treatment. Doctors have told her that the only possible way they can forsee her bringing her weight down is through gastric bypass, but she must wait until all tests are clear, her hormones have stabilized, and she fully recovers internally from previous surgeries.

11-24-2003, 09:33 AM	#21 (permalink)
pocon1 Banned	A few(very few) people have hormonal issues or medical problems with losing weight. That does not excuse the other 95% of the fat people. I don't got around attcking fat people, but if someone tries to use their weight as an excuse than I will call them on it. Diet and exercise are the key. Its hard for you? so what. Work harder. You can always find someone who has an advantage over you. Doesn't mean that you quit. Some people have a faster metabolism? they are lucky. You must do more work. And fat people are not a racial category. You are not born fat. You become fat. If I eat Indian food all my life, my pale Irish skin will not turn the color of curry and saffron. If I eat fat all of my life, I will get fat. One more thing, for those who say you can't lose weight. Do you see fat people on the news in war-torn countries and in areas of famine? No, because those people are in a calorie deficit. You can lose weight, if you are willing to go into calorie deficit.

11-24-2003, 09:59 AM	#23 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	I guess I figure that the problem of overweight is a problem for the overweight people. The problem for the rest of us is our prejudice against them. We can stand to work on that. __________________ create evolution

11-24-2003, 11:28 AM	#25 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I usually don't make a distinction. There are times that I dislike the people who are fat and expect everyone else to make exceptions for them. For example: I recently heard of a person who was too fat to sit in one seat in an airplane - complaining that the seats were so terribly small and even told the airline that they needed to make their seats larger. To make their seats larger would cause so many problems for EVERYONE and the seats aren't' that narrow. I'm of average build and weight for a woman - 5'5" 145lbs and was quite comfortable in the seats - besides having to sit for a long time anyway. If you can't control your weight for a medical reason then Get a Dr's note saying that you have special needs (I know it can be done) and ask for the seats they've reserved for handicapped or those with special needs. Don't expect them to go out of their and everyone elses way to accomodate you otherwise. I have a mother-in-law that is exceptionally large. I am very polite and pleasant to her and we get along well. She has struggled with her weight for years and finally had to go on blood pressure medication. When that happened she went to another specialist and pushed to get help. She's finally gotten help for a number of medical conditions (including one that affects the muscles called Cocksackle Disease) and has lost 50 lbs in the past 6-8 months. She finally had enough motivation and finally found a Dr who would help her. I know from seeing her struggle that it isn't an easy task but tell me some life change that IS easy. Any? I am polite to people who are obese but I dislike any time that they or any other "minority" group expect special treatment. If they want to be equal then ACT equal. I'm excluding the handicapped from this statement. I will go out of my way to help someone who really does need it. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

11-25-2003, 11:21 AM	#26 (permalink)
water_boy1999 Fly em straight! Location: Above and Beyond	I am with you sixate, phaenx and bermuDa. Good points. I grew up watching my mom bitch and moan about being too fat. Don't get me wrong....I love my mom to death, but she has a problem and I grew up listening to it. Sure, she has tried the Yo-Yo diets, the working out, etc.....but I would always catch her in the kitchen with a spoon if icecream in her mouth. So, why all the complaining when she is doing it to herself? What I can't stand is people who complain about their weight issues, then I turn around to see a cheesburger in their mouth. I think the problem lies in lack of education. These people know how to be obese and they are doing a great job at it. What they don't know how to do is maintain a healthy lifestyle that keeps their caloric intake at a manageable level. Obesity should not be an excuse for categorical classification, nor should it be an excuse for discrimination. The majority of fat people (excluding people with diabetes or other fat related diseases) are fat because of a symptom to a problem. Black people aren't black because they have a categorical problem. They are black because they were born that way and being black isn't a health problem. Fat people were not born fat. They are that way either due to the small population of people who have health issues, or they don't know how (too lazy) to do anything about it. __________________ Doh!!!! -Homer Simpson

11-26-2003, 06:00 AM	#27 (permalink)
RHix613 Tilted	I don't believe that fat people (or obese for the politically correct folks) should be a racial group. Being part of those labeled fat I realilze that I wasn't always fat and hopefully this latest fad diet will take the fat label off of me. So, which other racial group can people join or leave of their own accord. I don't think there are any out there.

11-26-2003, 08:58 AM	#28 (permalink)
Destrox Metal and Rock 4 Life Location: Phoenix	A racial group ? Hell No. A fault in thier own ways, yes. Hense, I will still look down upon all fat people untill they can prove to me that they are trying or it REALLY is a medical that they cant lose the weight. __________________ You bore me.... next.

11-26-2003, 12:30 PM	#32 (permalink)
Holo A Real American	Thanks for all the replies. I still see a lot of "their own fault" finger pointing tho and the expectation to lose weight. Problem is making fat people feel 2nd class do not bolster them to change themselves in a positive way. The only self-destructive group that is looked down on about as much as the overweight are smokers. I have heard guys saying they wouldn't date a smoker, but that's mainly because of the ashtray breath. However, smokers are still more widely accepted and sympathized with by many with in light of all the bannings of smoking in public areas. Fat people have no such sympathy and even many who feel sympathy say things like "they don't get fat in one day ." There are other illnesses that contribute to overweight greatly as well such as mental illness. Many fat people are depressed and deal by eating things that make them feel good. Not too much different from people who drink or smoke pot. It's not necessarily an addiction for many just a coping mechanism. When you feel like shit, buy a bag of weed. Just replace weed with "ice cream" or "Little Debbie" Cheaper than beer. Some people respond emotionally to taste stimuli- it goes back to the fact we're all different. What is pain for one is pleasure to another. I don't think fat people should any more special treatment than anyone else who's different. If I was fat enough to take up two seats in an airplane I'd pay for two seats. I bet Shaq doesn't fit in those seats and you can't say he's fat. But I also think people should recognize that there are mental illnesses such as depression that make many fat people seek relief in food. When you make them feel like shit you are making the problem you despise even worse. Depressed overweight people aren't gonna change any faster with more stress lumped on them. Losing weight to a depressed p[erson is generally lower on the list of issues. It's an effect of a very differing cause. I'm just saying to remember you never really know a person until you get to know them. There are so many kind, generous, funny, friendly and in some cases sexy fat people. If your policy is "innocent till proven asshole" with a black person or Hispanic or East Indian, then why not with a fat person? __________________ I happen to like the words "fuck", "cock", "pussy", "tits", "cunt", "twat", "shit" and even "bitch". As long as I am not using them to describe you, don't go telling me whether or not I can/should use them...that is, if you want me to continue refraining from using them to describe you. ~Prince