robotic doom? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

giblfiz · 08-31-2003, 06:07 PM

Linked to from a link on slashdot... its kind of long.
http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

Quote:

Depending on how you want to think about it, it was funny or inevitable or symbolic that the robotic takeover did not start at MIT, NASA, Microsoft or Ford. It started at a Burger-G restaurant in Cary, NC on May 17, 2010. It seemed like such a simple thing at the time, but May 17 marked a pivotal moment in human history.

Burger-G was a fast food chain that had come out of nowhere starting with its first restaurant in 2001. The Burger-G chain had an attitude and a style that said "hip" and "fun" to a wide swath of the American middle class. The chain was able to grow with surprising speed based on its popularity and the public persona of the young founder, Joe Garcia. By 2010 the chain had 1,000 outlets in the U.S. and showed no signs of slowing down. If the trend continued, Burger-G would soon be one of the "Top 5" fast food restaurants in the U.S.

The "robot" installed at this first Burger-G restaurant looked nothing like the robots of popular culture. It was not hominid like C-3PO or futuristic like R2-D2 or industrial like an assembly line robot. Instead it was simply a PC sitting in the back corner of the restaurant running a piece of software. The software was called "Manna", version 1.0.

Manna's job was to manage the store, and it did this in a most interesting way. Think about a normal fast food restaurant circa 2000. There was a group of employees who worked at the store, typically 50 people in a normal restaurant who rotated in and out on a weekly schedule. The people did everything from making the burgers to taking the orders to cleaning the tables and taking out the trash. All of these employees reported to the store manager and a couple of assistant managers. The managers hired the employees, scheduled them and told them what to do each day. This was a completely normal arrangement. In 2000, there were millions of businesses that operated in this way.

Circa 2000, the fast food industry had a problem, and Burger-G was no different. The problem was the quality of the fast food experience. Some restaurants were run perfectly. They had courteous and thoughtful crew members, clean restrooms, great customer service and high accuracy on the orders. Other restaurants were chaotic and uncomfortable to customers. Since one bad experience could turn a customer off to an entire chain of restaurants, these poorly-managed stores were the Achilles heel of any chain.

The problem was not the crew. It was easy to hire minimum wage workers as crew members and they did what they were told. If someone told a crew member to clean the tables or mop the floors, the task would get done. The problem was the managers -- it all came down to the manager in the store. If a manager did not train the employees and did not constantly tell them what to do on an ongoing basis, the quality of the restaurant suffered. At many restaurants, especially at lunch or dinner, customers would find the trash cans filled to the brim, the bathrooms dirty and the tables a mess. That happened simply because the managers did not deploy the workers effectively. Things would get busy, the manager would get sidetracked with a customer complaint or an inventory problem, and the manager would forget to tell someone to empty the trash. Things like full trashcans drive customers nuts, and the public opinion of the restaurant chain as a whole suffered from simple mistakes like that.

To solve the problem, Burger-G contracted with a software consultant and commissioned a piece of software. The goal of the software was to replace the managers and tell the employees what to do in a more controllable way. Manna version 1.0 was born.

Manna was connected to the cash registers, so it knew how many people were flowing through the restaurant. The software could therefore predict with uncanny accuracy when the trash cans would fill up, the toilets would get dirty and the tables needed wiping down. The software was also attached to the time clock, so it knew who was working in the restaurant. Manna also had "help buttons" throughout the restaurant. Small signs on the buttons told customers to push them if they needed help or saw a problem. There was a button in the restroom that a customer could press if the restroom had a problem. There was a button on each trashcan. There was a button near each cash register, one in the kiddie area and so on. These buttons let customers give Manna a heads up when something went wrong.

At any given moment Manna had a list of things that it needed to do. There were orders coming in from the cash registers, so Manna directed employees to prepare those meals. There were also toilets to be scrubbed on a regular basis, floors to mop, tables to wipe, sidewalks to sweep, buns to defrost, inventory to rotate, windows to wash and so on. Manna kept track of the hundreds of tasks that needed to get done, and assigned each task to an employee one at a time.

Manna told employees what to do simply by talking to them. Employees each put on a headset when they punched in. Manna had a voice synthesizer, and with its synthesized voice Manna told everyone exactly what to do through their headsets. Constantly. Manna micro-managed minimum wage employees to create perfect performance.

The software would speak to the employees individually and tell each one exactly what to do. For example, "Bob, we need to load more patties. Please walk toward the freezer."

Or, "Jane, when you are through with this customer, please close your register. Then we will clean the women's restroom."

And so on. The employees were told exactly what to do, and they did it quite happily. It was a major relief actually, because the software told them precisely what to do step by step.

For example, when Jane entered the restroom, Manna used a simple position tracking system built into her headset to know that she had arrived. Manna then told her the first step.

Manna: "Place the 'wet floor' warning cone outside the door please."

When Jane completed the task, she would speak the word "OK" into her headset and Manna moved to the next step in the restroom cleaning procedure.

Manna: "Please block the door open with the door stop."

Jane: "OK."

Manna: "Please retrieve the bucket and mop from the supply closet."

Jane: "OK."

And so on.

Once the restroom was clean, Manna would direct Jane to put everything away. Manna would make sure that she carefully washed her hands. Then Manna would immediately start Jane working on a new task. Meanwhile, Manna might send Lisa to the restroom to inspect it and make sure that Jane had done a thorough job. Manna would ask Lisa to check the toilets, the floor, the sink and the mirrors. If Jane missed anything, Lisa would report it.

Whenever Manna needed to get something done, it looked at the list of employees in the store and chose one of them. Then it sent a command string -- for example, "Please get an empty trash bag from the rack" -- to the voice synthesizer module. The synthesizer sent the string to the transmitter, which broadcast it throughout the store. If the message was meant for Bob, Bob's headset received the command string and played it in Bob's earphones. Bob's headset also had a microphone, and the computer could easily understand words like "OK", "Yes", "No", "Repeat", "Help" and so on. Each employee learned these simple phrases in a 10-minute training session and used them to respond to the computer.

The headset also contained a small beacon that let Manna track each employee's location in the store with an accuracy of about two inches. Manna could tell if the employee was in the right area for an assigned task, and how fast the employee was moving. If you weren't where you were supposed to be or if you stopped somewhere along the way, Manna would ask you about it. You could say "Customer" or "Spill" and Manna would leave you alone for one minute.

I grew up in Cary, NC. That was a long time ago, but when I was a kid I lived right in the middle of Cary with my parents. My father was a pilot for a big airline. My mother was a stay-at-home mom and I had a younger sister. We lived in a typical four bedroom suburban home in a nice neighborhood with a swimming pool in the backyard. I was a 15 year-old teenager working at the Burger-G on May 17 when the first Manna system came online.

I can remember putting on the headset for the first time and the computer talking to me and telling me what to do. It was creepy at first, but that feeling really only lasted a day or so. Then you were used to it, and the job really did get easier. Manna never pushed you around, never yelled at you. The girls liked it because Manna didn't hit on them either. Manna simply asked you to do something, you did it, you said, "OK", and Manna asked you to do the next step. Each step was easy. You could go through the whole day on autopilot, and Manna made sure that you were constantly doing something. At the end of the shift Manna always said the same thing. "You are done for today. Thank you for your help." Then you took off your headset and put it back on the rack to recharge. The first few minutes off the headset were always disorienting -- there had been this voice in your head telling you exactly what to do in minute detail for six or eight hours. You had to turn your brain back on to get out of the restaurant.

To me, Manna was OK. The job at Burger-G was mindless, and Manna made it easy by telling you exactly what to do. You could even get Manna to play music through your headphones, in the background. Manna had a set of "stations" that you could choose from. That was a bonus. And Manna kept you busy the entire day. Every single minute, you had something that Manna was telling you to do. If you simply turned off your brain and went with the flow of Manna, the day went by very fast.

My father, on the other hand, did not like Manna at all from the very first day he saw me wearing the headset in the restaurant. He and Mom had come in for lunch and to say hi. I knew they were coming, so I had timed my break so I could sit down with them for a few minutes. When I sat down, my father noticed the headset.

"So", he said, "they have you working the drive-thru I see. Is that a step up or a step down?"

"It's not the drive-thru," I replied, "it's a new system they've installed called Manna. It manages the store."

"How so?"

"It tells me what to do through the headset."

"Who, the manager?"

"No, it's a computer."

He looked at me for a long time, "A computer is telling you what to do on the job? What does the manager do?"

"The computer is the manager. Manna, manager, get it?" Duh. I don't know why I can remember this conversation so well, but it's like it was yesterday. And I can remember just what I was thinking with my arrogant teenage brain. Like, "duh, you idiot, the computer is the manager." Looking back, I'm still amazed that he didn't slap me when I was 15.

"You mean that a computer is telling you what to do all day?", he asked.

"Yeah."

"Like what?"

I gave him an example, "Before you got here, I was taking out the trash. Manna told me how to do it."

"What did it say?"

"It tells you exactly what to do. Like, It told me to get four new bags from the rack. When I did that it told me to go to trash can #1. Once I got there it told me to open the cabinet and pull out the trash can. Once I did that it told me to check the floor for any debris. Then it told me to tie up the bag and put it to the side, on the left. Then it told me to put a new bag in the can. Then it told me to attach the bag to the rim. Then it told me to put the can back in and close the cabinet. Then it told me to wipe down the cabinet and make sure it's spotless. Then it told me to push the help button on the can to make sure it is working. Then it told me to move to trash can #2. Like that."

He looked at me for a long time again before he said, "Good Lord, you are nothing but a piece of a robot. What is it saying to you now?"

"It just told me I have three minutes left on my break. And it told me to smile and say hello to the guests. How's this? Hi!" And I gave him a big toothy grin.

"Yesterday the people controlled the computers. Now the computers control the people. You are the eyes and hands for this robot. And all so that Joe Garcia can make $20 million per year. Do you know what will happen if this spreads?"

"No, I don't. And I think Mr. G makes more than $20 million a year. But right now I've got two minutes left, and Manna is telling me that I need to move back to station 3 to get ready for the next run. See ya." I waved at Mom. Dad just stared at me.

We talked about it later that night a little. To him, Manna was the brain for the robot. The employees in the store were the "senses" and the "manipulators" for the robot. I could see where he was coming from, but I didn't see Manna as any different from the human store manager that it replaced. Manna certainly was using us as its "hands" -- except for the real simple stuff like the fry-cooking machine and the burger-cooking machine, people still did most of the work in the restaurant. I spent a lot of my time, for example, putting together burgers, taking out the trash, washing the windows and mopping the floors. Without the people working in the store, Manna would not be able to get anything done. And Manna would ask us questions all the time like, "How many people are standing in line?" or, "Do the kids look OK in the kiddie area?" But it seemed completely harmless to me at the time. "The computers are now controlling the people rather than the other way around," is something he would say many times. But he was overreacting. It wasn't like a Burger-G restaurant was going to take over the world. And he was one to talk. In his job, he pretty much just sat there in the cockpit the whole flight doing nothing. His job was pointless because the autopilot did everything. At least I got something done. Of course he was making $100,000 a year doing nothing and I was making $5.15 an hour pushing a broom for Manna.

The tests in our Burger-G store were surprisingly successful. There were Burger-G corporate guys in the restaurant watching us, fixing bugs in the software, making sure Manna was covering all the bases, and they were pleased. It took about 3 months to work all the kinks out, and as they did the Manna software totally changed the restaurant. Worker performance nearly doubled. So did customer satisfaction. So did the consistency of the customer's experience. Trash cans never overfilled. Bathrooms were remarkably clean. Employees always washed their hands when they needed to. Food was ready faster. The meals we handed out were nearly 100 percent accurate because Manna made us check to make sure every item in the bag was exactly what the customer ordered. The store never ran out of supplies -- there were always plenty of napkins in the dispenser and the ketchup container was always full. There were enough employees in the store for the busy times, because Manna could accurately track trends and staff appropriately.

In addition, Burger-G saved a ton of money. In 2010, Burger-G had just over 1,000 stores in the United States. Manna worked so well that Burger-G deployed it nationwide in 2011. By 2012 Burger-G had cut more than 3,000 of its higher-paid store employees -- mostly assistant managers and managers. That one change saved the company nearly $100 million per year, and all that money came straight to the bottom line for the restaurant chain. Shareholders were ecstatic. Mr. G gave himself another big raise to celebrate. In addition, Manna had optimized store staffing and had gotten a significant productivity boost out of the employees in the store. That saved another $150 million. $250 million made a huge difference in the fast food industry.

So, the first real wave of robots did not replace all the factory workers as everyone imagined. The robots replaced middle management and significantly improved the performance of minimum wage employees. All of the fast food chains watched the Burger-G experiment with Manna closely, and by 2012 they started installing Manna systems as well. By 2014 or so, nearly every business in America that had a significant pool of minimum-wage employees was installing Manna software or something similar. They had to do it in order to compete.

In other words, Manna spread through the American corporate landscape like wildfire. And my dad was right. It was when all of these new Manna systems began talking to each other that things started to get uncomfortable.

http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna2.htm

Marshall Brain goes on to make some very good points. I'm usually a pretty hardcore libertarian, but I'm begining to see some flaws in my own opinions. I have been playing around with a little game theory lately and its making me fear the current situation distribution of welth robots aside.

What do people here think? Will the class devide get bigger and uglyer? Is it the end of a sort of golden age? If you think new jobs will spring up to replace old ones what do you think they will be. Do you think the system will crash, or do you think this is all rubish?

Halx · 08-31-2003, 06:25 PM

yangwar · 09-01-2003, 02:29 PM

Thanks for the post, was waaaay to lazy to read this on /. Interesting article. [This is good]

JumpinJesus · 09-01-2003, 02:35 PM

"Dave? What are you doing? Dave...?"

Man, I told you. Beware, people. Beware.

When a friendly voice comes from a cash register telling you to take out the trash, you know you're owned.

Conclamo Ludus · 09-01-2003, 05:45 PM

Garbage in garbage out or garbage out garbage in? Interesting article.

ARTelevision · 09-01-2003, 05:55 PM

well, I truly do think, ultimately, humans will become robots and I also truly think that will be good positive natural evolution.

giblfiz · 09-01-2003, 07:06 PM

ARTV: I think that the point of this article is that while it's inevitable, its not necessarily going to happen in a good way.

hotzot · 09-01-2003, 07:31 PM

humans will always find a way to goof off.

BBtB · 09-02-2003, 11:44 AM

What sad is while reading this the only thing I could think is "Thats actully a pretty good idea" I mean manna and all that. If I had the means I would probably do it. But again all that is is a program that asks people to do things. You could simply ignore it and it couldn't do anything about it.

Giant Hamburger · 09-02-2003, 12:08 PM

Hail Future Robots!

I, for one, will welcome our soon-to-be-electronic taskmasters if, and only if, Burger-G produces a tasty hamburger. Sacrifices must be made in order to produce a low-cost and yet flavorful sandwich.

I am now being told, "Please submit reply, Giant Hamburger."
-GH

ARTelevision · 09-02-2003, 12:12 PM

giblfiz, right.
I disagree.
I think it will be fine and dandy...

JumpinJesus · 09-02-2003, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARTelevision
giblfiz, right.
I disagree.
I think it will be fine and dandy...

Giblfiz, don't listen to him; it's a robot! It's already starting...Run!

Macheath · 09-02-2003, 02:38 PM

I think that computers would have to become much more advanced to be able to micromanage humans whilst maintaining a harmonious and sustainable work environment. Humans would have to become used to the idea too. I see both computers and humans "evolving" towards one another gradually but that would take time.

The hypothetical presented here rushes that evolution and ultimately does not seem like it would work: 1) There still exists a generation that finds the idea unacceptable (the father) and 2) the computer still has relatively poor communication skills (being told to get the mop, get the bucket, pour water in bucket, pour detergent in the bucket, place mop in bucket, etc, would drive you up the wall very quickly).

Modern computers are certainly capable of managing things like inventory, finances and physical environment. Micromanaging humans though is a big step and they're definitely not there yet.

Scipio · 09-02-2003, 03:21 PM

Sounds like the Borg to me. Without the groupthink at least, but everyone is plugged in, everyone is on task. Definitely an intriguing article.

Would it work? Hell yes. It might even be feasible right now. A fast food restaurant is a fairly simple animal. A Wal-Mart Supercenter, on the other hand, might be a challenge of a different level of magnitude.

giblfiz · 09-02-2003, 03:41 PM

Macheath, I mus disagree.

Computers are moving fast, and its really hard to comprehend what exponential growth means. 2015 is a long way of in terms of computers, and personally I as a computer scientist don't need to suspend disbelief to see that happening.

I have done some work in A.I. and I can tell you that what the Manna system in there is described as doing is *not* out of the range of what computers even now can do. A.I. is sort of odd, very simple things for humans (seeing, talking, reading, walking, picking up objects) are often quite difficult, but taking a statistical guess at when the trashcans are full is something that an A.I. is really uncannily good at. (pardon the pun)

The other thing they are good at is multitasking... I.E. riding many employees at once.

The poor communication skills of the computer as outlined were intentionally that way... and probably more to drive home an emotional response than to be an accurate prediction. The point with it stating every little detail is that you could stop thinking and start listening. Its something that is surprisingly easy to do, and doesn't in fact drive you nuts.

The other thing is that it doesn't need to work exactly as described to work. you could leave 1 manager to try catching employees doing novel things and still end up in pretty much the same fucked up place.

BBtB:
your totally right. What totally creeped me out about it ws that I was thinking "hey, if I implemented that system I would get rich, it would work great" Thats what makes it seem so scary and inevitable.

ARTV: your optimism and faith in humanity is refreshing. Mine has been ground away long ago. Perhaps I will rediscover it some day.

Macheath · 09-02-2003, 04:26 PM

giblfiz, I agree that computers are developing quickly and I want to really focus on software here rather than hardware.

I'm just interested to know if programs are going to develop in a direction that would allow them to really interact with humans in an overt manager/subordinate relationship, with the concept of direct authority present in that relationship.

I just wonder to what extent there is a truly multidisciplnary approach where philosophers, psychologists and sociolgists have a hand in designing AI programs together.

If that multidisciplinary approach isn't taken, will there be a fundamental flaw in the "relationship" between humans and computers?

I know humans are CAPABLE of listening to orders without thinking, I just wonder whether that will be good for peoples' long term psychological wellbeing.

Under a good human manager, a worker who shows initiative may be rewaded with commendation and maybe even promotion into management. Would a bright, ambitious and creative human working for a computer become quickly depressed at being unable to "impress" the computer. Would the stifled go-getter eventually respond with a shotgun blast to the CPU? How do you go about writing the "promotion program"? Units sold? Customer interaction? Morale boosted?

We have whole social systems based on things like creativity, prejudice, laziness, brilliance, ambition, class, ego, dishonesty, lenience, mercy, anger, pride, humility and honour. Would a people management program be able to take all of those things into account or would it need human guidance? Is it actually a human trait to NEED at least the illusion of human control and, if so, how do you overcome that need?

krwlz · 09-02-2003, 04:42 PM

I for one, will never submit to the will of a computer. Personaly, while the idea sounds efficient, and a great money saver...Its not worth me stopping thinkining.

shAzb0t · 09-02-2003, 05:08 PM

Interesting read, I still need to gather my thoughts about the issue.

My major opinion is that humans are going to destroy themselves somehow, and although quickly advancing technology will probably contribute to it, I don't think it's possible for human will to submit themselves totally.

For the restaurant, I guess it helped employees to make the day go faster, make tasks easier, but the employees welcomed it, and I don't think if the will is there to accept the instructions, humans won't.

Easytiger · 09-02-2003, 07:43 PM

I for one welcome our new robot overlords.

DelayedReaction · 09-02-2003, 09:05 PM

<Paranoia>
Hail Friend Computer! Troubleshooter FUCK-U-ALL-1 is ready and awaiting commands! My Bouncy Bubble Beverage was extremely tasty this morning!

Computer! I have discovered a Commie Mutant Traitor! Requesting a Termination Voucher Request Form so I might fill out his violation of failing to comply with Regulation 135.17/69A-12B.

No friend computer, I do not know what Regulation 135.17/69A-12B is! That is above my clearance! In fact, I do not know what a Regulation 135.17/69A-12B is! All I know is that I have encountered a Commie Mutant Traitor and he has violated it!

Yes friend Computer! I will gladly enter the reprocessing chamber for advanced hygenic discombobulation!
</Paranoia>

On a more serious note, I think a system like Manna would cause more trouble than it's worth. Although it would feasibly work on low-level menial jobs, as you get into more and more advanced situation you encounter things which simply cannot be broken down into steps. Areas such as innovation, research and development, and entertainment all require a level of competence and experience that goes far beyond a little voice telling you to do specific steps.

The hacking possibilities are extremely amusing. Imagine what would happen...

"Good morning Sally. Your first task will be to help the first customer. Is he male?"

"Yes."

"Excellent. Start by removing your blouse."

It could happen.

bulakbol master · 09-02-2003, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DelayedReaction
The hacking possibilities are extremely amusing. Imagine what would happen...

"Good morning Sally. Your first task will be to help the first customer. Is he male?"

"Yes."

"Excellent. Start by removing your blouse."

It could happen.

I know I'D go to that store. And learn more programming, at that

I wouldn't be surprised if this even came partly true. Note the part where he mentions that shareholders were ecstatic, yadda yadda yadda, money money money. I wouldn't put it past mankind to do whatever it takes to make that extra buck. Money screws with your priorities.

Which is why I'm poor

Darkblack · 09-03-2003, 05:44 AM

I read all 4 chapters and am awaiting the 5th on the 8th.

Freaked me out man!

rockogre · 09-03-2003, 06:48 AM

Interesting article. I'll still bet on the humans. One virus, one power surge, one hacker and how will it work?

What happens to your business when NO ONE thinks for themsleves when the computer dies? No way would I have a business in which no one could think on their own.

I'm sure we will see some things like this occur but we will also see some spectacular failures.

Cynthetiq · 09-03-2003, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rockogre
Interesting article. I'll still bet on the humans. One virus, one power surge, one hacker and how will it work?

What happens to your business when NO ONE thinks for themsleves when the computer dies? No way would I have a business in which no one could think on their own.

I'm sure we will see some things like this occur but we will also see some spectacular failures.

one pissed off worker with a bucket full of water...

billege · 09-03-2003, 07:35 AM

There is a certain pain I feel every time a human being hands me a burger.

The human being serving me food has dreams, emotions, and feelings. Serving burgers is not a task that humans should have to do.

Mopping floors, wiping windows, and jobs that fall in the "drudgery" catagory are below human capabilities. I hope that as soon as we are capable of pulling people out of those types of jobs, we do so.

Evolution means we're going to have to move above work like that. I can only hope I live to see some of it.

TIO · 09-03-2003, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cynthetiq
one pissed off worker with a bucket full of water...

tee hee hee...you've been reading CorporateMofo as well?

The article was fascinating! I just about screamed when I saw that the end of it hasn't been posted yet. There are some really, really interesting ideas there.

giblfiz · 09-03-2003, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Macheath

I'm just interested to know if programs are going to develop in a direction that would allow them to really interact with humans in an overt manager/subordinate relationship, with the concept of direct authority present in that relationship.

I just wonder to what extent there is a truly multidisciplnary approach where philosophers, psychologists and sociolgists have a hand in designing AI programs together.

If that multidisciplinary approach isn't taken, will there be a fundamental flaw in the "relationship" between humans and computers?

I know humans are CAPABLE of listening to orders without thinking, I just wonder whether that will be good for peoples' long term psychological wellbeing.

Well for what its worth A.I. is very very multidisciplinary. Developers draw from everything and anything that humans have done, learned or endeavored to do.

And no, the system outlined here is *bad* for peoples well being.. psychologically and even physically. Thats sort of the point. This story is an all too plausible work of dystopian fiction.

Quote:

Under a good human manager, a worker who shows initiative may be rewaded with commendation and maybe even promotion into management. Would a bright, ambitious and creative human working for a computer become quickly depressed at being unable to "impress" the computer. Would the stifled go-getter eventually respond with a shotgun blast to the CPU? How do you go about writing the "promotion program"? Units sold? Customer interaction? Morale boosted?

There is no "promotion program" and none is needed because there is no possibility of promotion. Its already quite common in fast food that managers are never promoted up from working staff, and upper management sure as hell isn't made of people who worked there way up. If a system like manna were in place there would be no need to promote anyone, and no desire to either.

Quote:

We have whole social systems based on things like creativity, prejudice, laziness, brilliance, ambition, class, ego, dishonesty, lenience, mercy, anger, pride, humility and honour. Would a people management program be able to take all of those things into account or would it need human guidance? Is it actually a human trait to NEED at least the illusion of human control and, if so, how do you overcome that need?

Do people really need the illusion of human control? I can tell you for sure that they don't need creativity or freedom. Despite what our noble culture would have you believe, the drive to be "free" is a very weak one in humans. History shows that it is *very* easy to enslave people... people generally make good and obedient slaves. I see no reason they would have any more ability to resist a computer than they would a man. Whats more the computer is backed up by not only the standard slavemaster equipment (men with weapons, the threat of starvation) but also a very subtle and well thought out advertising plan.

For those of you who mentioned that pissed off employs would just take a hammer to the "Manna". Well your probably right, but all that does is set back the company ~$2000 in off the shelf hardware. The employee is fired, and the new system is in by lunch. As for things not operating in the case of a power surge or power out I worked at chili's and when the power went out the place ground to a standstill. We already have that vulnerability, its not really a new ore even additional problem.

Macheath · 09-03-2003, 10:11 PM

I don't know if the equation between true slavery and wage slavery can be upheld. A person working in McDonalds can't reasonably be called a slave because their live outside of the job is "free". They are not a chattel of McDonalds either. If they get sick and die, McDonalds doesn't lose a piece of its "property". That issue of ownership was probably one of the only things in human history that prompted masters to even try to feed their slaves.

I really want to discuss this whole topic in terms of TOTAL control of all society because that is what the article implies.

Depending on how you want to think about it, it was funny or inevitable or symbolic that the robotic takeover did not start at MIT, NASA, Microsoft or Ford. It started at a Burger-G restaurant in Cary, NC on May 17, 2010.

The implication is this program led to total robotic control of society. Calling a burger flipper a 'slave of robots' is silly if the managing director is still human - If anything, 'manna' too is a slave of the human CEO.

They can only ever truly be slave masters when they are running the company without any human authority above them. Even the means to use force (a basis of social control) can't be in human hands; hence no 'men with guns' are allowed.

Now could humans be slaves to robots if this scenario of absolute power with no ultimate human authority were in place? Could this be done without a 'promotion program' or the illusion of human control?

Well let's look at historical slavery. Could slaves be 'promoted'? Yes. In the US you had house slaves and field slaves. This promotion served a pupose. By separating out the lighter skinned house slaves you promoted division in the slave population and ensured that they would never unite and rise up against you. It was a social control.

If they could save up the money, slaves in Ancient Rome could purchase their freedom. There was dissent and uprisings too, the largest of these being the Spartacus uprising with an army of 120 000 slaves. Rome defeated this group of course, but in the course of history Rome fell and the fall would not have been delayed by the efforts of a slave poulation who had no loyalty or love for the Empire.

It could be said without a program of social control through division (the promotion program) slaves will revolt. The 'illusion program' would be an even more powerful control. I think even a 'cultural awareness' program would be needed. Would manna be programmed to encourage workers to talk, sing, laugh and interact or would it see that as prohibited redundant activity.

If humans rose up, could they win? In this scenario, it's possible to give the computer all kinds of Godlike power. It could be said that a human hacker would not be skilled enough to stop the program. It could be said that a group of guerillas blowing up the robotics factory could never stop the whole operation. If faced with hopeless odds fighting against a Godlike power, would all humans give up and end their folly? Satan didn't; and a good many atheists would not accept the 'justice' of being sent to purgatory for their lack of belief.

Would a computer faced with irrational resistance to its rule continue with heavy-handed oppression? Would it perhaps consider more subtle methods of social control such as cultivating an illusion of autonomy and bread and circuses? In the end, would it not discover that the 'illusion' and 'promotion' programs increased population and productivity 78% more than the 'robots with guns' and 'starvation threat' programs?

Stiltzkin · 09-06-2003, 04:07 PM

bloop...
bleep bleep
bloop

"Hi, Mike."
"Hello, Man."

Mike could take HAL any day.

Buk · 09-06-2003, 07:26 PM

As a member of "middle management" and a pretty well paid member at that, I already see things like this in how corporations replenish stock, and attempt to schedule employees.

Let me reassure you on one very important thing: Every single one of these programs that I have ever dealt with sucks giant donkey dick compared to a real person who knows what they are doing and is properly trainined. Technology as it stands now is not capable of relating to people and adjusting well enough to ever accomplish such a task effectively.

DelayedReaction · 09-06-2003, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buk
As a member of "middle management" and a pretty well paid member at that, I already see things like this in how corporations replenish stock, and attempt to schedule employees.

Let me reassure you on one very important thing: Every single one of these programs that I have ever dealt with sucks giant donkey dick compared to a real person who knows what they are doing and is properly trainined. Technology as it stands now is not capable of relating to people and adjusting well enough to ever accomplish such a task effectively.

The premise is that the machine doesn't have to adjust to the needs of the people; the employees either show up when they are told or get fired. And with room for plenty of other employees, nobody cares.

It's an interesting premise, but it would be too easy to sabotage the manager.

BentNotTwisted · 01-18-2004, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DelayedReaction
The premise is that the machine doesn't have to adjust to the needs of the people; the employees either show up when they are told or get fired. And with room for plenty of other employees, nobody cares.

It's an interesting premise, but it would be too easy to sabotage the manager.

I dont' think it would be easy to sabotage. Maybe at first, but after the first few systems were vandalized, the managing computer would be locked in an air conditioned vault and be completely inaccessible to employees. So much for the bucket of water idea.
The story has progressed a lot since this thread started. I've read most if it, but I'll reserve the rest of my comments until I finish reading it.

ApexgriN · 01-18-2004, 08:59 PM

http://www.plyojump.com/quro.html

Qrio has a 60,000 word vocabulary, can learn the faces and voices of 10 people, and will learn about you over time, integrating this knowledge into your conversations as time goes on.

According to Moores Law, your average $500 Compaq will have more processing power and memory than the human brain by 2050.

Sony predicts that personal robots will be as common as PC's and cell phones in the 2010's. It's interesting how much money and resources Japan (including the government) is putting into Robotics.

You do the math.

BTW - I think the topic of this thread is a little bassackwards. I think it will be the robots doing all the grunt work, and it will be the few humans who still have jobs programming them. Doesn't it make more sense to pay a robot nothing to scrub the toilet? Why pay humans to do it?

ApexgriN · 01-18-2004, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BentNotTwisted
I dont' think it would be easy to sabotage. Maybe at first, but after the first few systems were vandalized, the managing computer would be locked in an air conditioned vault and be completely inaccessible to employees. So much for the bucket of water idea.
...

Yeah, but it will be connected to the network.

Physical access to these systems isn't going to be practical. It never was when it came to hacking computers, and it never will be. It's all software.

ApexgriN · 01-18-2004, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by billege
There is a certain pain I feel every time a human being hands me a burger.

The human being serving me food has dreams, emotions, and feelings. Serving burgers is not a task that humans should have to do.

Mopping floors, wiping windows, and jobs that fall in the "drudgery" catagory are below human capabilities. I hope that as soon as we are capable of pulling people out of those types of jobs, we do so.

Evolution means we're going to have to move above work like that. I can only hope I live to see some of it.

The problem with this is, (and sorry, I missed your post earlier) what are all the people going to do when the grunt work is done by robots? Will the economy create new jobs? Something like 50% of our workforce could easily be replaced by robots in the near future.

Robotics is facinating and scary at the same time.

EDIT: http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm

Fire · 01-18-2004, 11:10 PM

it is already starting- computerized inventory is taking descisions out of "middle manager's" hands- the comp keeps track of all the stuff sold, and reorders, keeps track of sales- I just watched a walmart fabric department shut down for 30 minutes because the beepy scanny thingy went out and no one could do anything manualy- even though they were trained to- three employees could not figure out a course of action, untill a fourth (older) one (to clarify, older= late fifties, and worknig on 20 yrs there) came along and did the stuff by hand- comp inventory makes sense and keeps stuff cheap, so it will spread and improve- the good news is that the bigger the system the more bugs / loopholes for us to exploit- hard work no longer = prosperity around here, its all about the loopholes and sneakyness.....

PredeconInferno · 01-18-2004, 11:48 PM

the only thing left to do now is to bow to our new robot overlords.

PS the marvin the martian icon rules.

BentNotTwisted · 01-23-2004, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ApexgriN
The problem with this is, (and sorry, I missed your post earlier) what are all the people going to do when the grunt work is done by robots? Will the economy create new jobs? Something like 50% of our workforce could easily be replaced by robots in the near future.

Robotics is facinating and scary at the same time.

EDIT: http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm

The same author has some good ideas on how to resolve the problems of robots in the workplace: http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-freedom.htm. To accomplish this it's going to require some serious grass roots political organizing because the rich owners of the U.S. are not going to want to give up what they have.

Quote:

Originally posted by PredeconInferno
the only thing left to do now is to bow to our new robot overlords.

PS the marvin the martian icon rules.

It doesn't have to be that way if we get off our asses and do something proactively.

PS Thanks!

08-31-2003, 06:25 PM	#2 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	__________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

09-01-2003, 02:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
yangwar Crazy Location: Nacogdoches, TX	Thanks for the post, was waaaay to lazy to read this on /. Interesting article. [This is good] __________________ My mouth is a word factory.

09-01-2003, 02:35 PM	#4 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	"Dave? What are you doing? Dave...?" Man, I told you. Beware, people. Beware. When a friendly voice comes from a cash register telling you to take out the trash, you know you're owned. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

09-01-2003, 05:45 PM	#5 (permalink)
Conclamo Ludus Modern Man Location: West Michigan	Garbage in garbage out or garbage out garbage in? Interesting article. __________________ Lord, have mercy on my wicked soul I wouldn't mistreat you baby, for my weight in gold. -Son House, Death Letter Blues

09-01-2003, 05:55 PM	#6 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	well, I truly do think, ultimately, humans will become robots and I also truly think that will be good positive natural evolution. __________________ create evolution

09-01-2003, 07:06 PM	#7 (permalink)
giblfiz is a shoggoth Location: LA	ARTV: I think that the point of this article is that while it's inevitable, its not necessarily going to happen in a good way. __________________ Use the star one and you'll be fighting off the old ones with your bare hands -A Shoggoth on the Roof

09-01-2003, 07:31 PM	#8 (permalink)
hotzot We're having potato pancakes! Location: stalag 13	humans will always find a way to goof off. __________________ The Bully Boys are here!

09-02-2003, 11:44 AM	#9 (permalink)
BBtB ClerkMan! Location: Tulsa, Ok.	What sad is while reading this the only thing I could think is "Thats actully a pretty good idea" I mean manna and all that. If I had the means I would probably do it. But again all that is is a program that asks people to do things. You could simply ignore it and it couldn't do anything about it. __________________ Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ... "I would like about three fiddy"

09-02-2003, 12:08 PM	#10 (permalink)
Giant Hamburger Gastrolithuanian Location: low-velocity Earth orbit	Hail Future Robots! I, for one, will welcome our soon-to-be-electronic taskmasters if, and only if, Burger-G produces a tasty hamburger. Sacrifices must be made in order to produce a low-cost and yet flavorful sandwich. I am now being told, "Please submit reply, Giant Hamburger." -GH

09-02-2003, 12:12 PM	#11 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	giblfiz, right. I disagree. I think it will be fine and dandy... __________________ create evolution

09-02-2003, 02:38 PM	#13 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	I think that computers would have to become much more advanced to be able to micromanage humans whilst maintaining a harmonious and sustainable work environment. Humans would have to become used to the idea too. I see both computers and humans "evolving" towards one another gradually but that would take time. The hypothetical presented here rushes that evolution and ultimately does not seem like it would work: 1) There still exists a generation that finds the idea unacceptable (the father) and 2) the computer still has relatively poor communication skills (being told to get the mop, get the bucket, pour water in bucket, pour detergent in the bucket, place mop in bucket, etc, would drive you up the wall very quickly). Modern computers are certainly capable of managing things like inventory, finances and physical environment. Micromanaging humans though is a big step and they're definitely not there yet.

09-02-2003, 03:21 PM	#14 (permalink)
Scipio Mencken Location: College	Sounds like the Borg to me. Without the groupthink at least, but everyone is plugged in, everyone is on task. Definitely an intriguing article. Would it work? Hell yes. It might even be feasible right now. A fast food restaurant is a fairly simple animal. A Wal-Mart Supercenter, on the other hand, might be a challenge of a different level of magnitude. __________________ "Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

09-02-2003, 03:41 PM	#15 (permalink)
giblfiz is a shoggoth Location: LA	Macheath, I mus disagree. Computers are moving fast, and its really hard to comprehend what exponential growth means. 2015 is a long way of in terms of computers, and personally I as a computer scientist don't need to suspend disbelief to see that happening. I have done some work in A.I. and I can tell you that what the Manna system in there is described as doing is not out of the range of what computers even now can do. A.I. is sort of odd, very simple things for humans (seeing, talking, reading, walking, picking up objects) are often quite difficult, but taking a statistical guess at when the trashcans are full is something that an A.I. is really uncannily good at. (pardon the pun) The other thing they are good at is multitasking... I.E. riding many employees at once. The poor communication skills of the computer as outlined were intentionally that way... and probably more to drive home an emotional response than to be an accurate prediction. The point with it stating every little detail is that you could stop thinking and start listening. Its something that is surprisingly easy to do, and doesn't in fact drive you nuts. The other thing is that it doesn't need to work exactly as described to work. you could leave 1 manager to try catching employees doing novel things and still end up in pretty much the same fucked up place. BBtB: your totally right. What totally creeped me out about it ws that I was thinking "hey, if I implemented that system I would get rich, it would work great" Thats what makes it seem so scary and inevitable. ARTV: your optimism and faith in humanity is refreshing. Mine has been ground away long ago. Perhaps I will rediscover it some day. __________________ Use the star one and you'll be fighting off the old ones with your bare hands -A Shoggoth on the Roof

09-02-2003, 04:26 PM	#16 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	giblfiz, I agree that computers are developing quickly and I want to really focus on software here rather than hardware. I'm just interested to know if programs are going to develop in a direction that would allow them to really interact with humans in an overt manager/subordinate relationship, with the concept of direct authority present in that relationship. I just wonder to what extent there is a truly multidisciplnary approach where philosophers, psychologists and sociolgists have a hand in designing AI programs together. If that multidisciplinary approach isn't taken, will there be a fundamental flaw in the "relationship" between humans and computers? I know humans are CAPABLE of listening to orders without thinking, I just wonder whether that will be good for peoples' long term psychological wellbeing. Under a good human manager, a worker who shows initiative may be rewaded with commendation and maybe even promotion into management. Would a bright, ambitious and creative human working for a computer become quickly depressed at being unable to "impress" the computer. Would the stifled go-getter eventually respond with a shotgun blast to the CPU? How do you go about writing the "promotion program"? Units sold? Customer interaction? Morale boosted? We have whole social systems based on things like creativity, prejudice, laziness, brilliance, ambition, class, ego, dishonesty, lenience, mercy, anger, pride, humility and honour. Would a people management program be able to take all of those things into account or would it need human guidance? Is it actually a human trait to NEED at least the illusion of human control and, if so, how do you overcome that need?

09-02-2003, 04:42 PM	#17 (permalink)
krwlz Fledgling Dead Head Location: Clarkson U.	I for one, will never submit to the will of a computer. Personaly, while the idea sounds efficient, and a great money saver...Its not worth me stopping thinkining.

09-02-2003, 05:08 PM	#18 (permalink)
shAzb0t Psycho Location: whereever my portable hard drive takes me	Interesting read, I still need to gather my thoughts about the issue. My major opinion is that humans are going to destroy themselves somehow, and although quickly advancing technology will probably contribute to it, I don't think it's possible for human will to submit themselves totally. For the restaurant, I guess it helped employees to make the day go faster, make tasks easier, but the employees welcomed it, and I don't think if the will is there to accept the instructions, humans won't.

09-02-2003, 07:43 PM	#19 (permalink)
Easytiger Insane Location: Tigerland	I for one welcome our new robot overlords.

09-02-2003, 09:05 PM	#20 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	<Paranoia> Hail Friend Computer! Troubleshooter FUCK-U-ALL-1 is ready and awaiting commands! My Bouncy Bubble Beverage was extremely tasty this morning! Computer! I have discovered a Commie Mutant Traitor! Requesting a Termination Voucher Request Form so I might fill out his violation of failing to comply with Regulation 135.17/69A-12B. No friend computer, I do not know what Regulation 135.17/69A-12B is! That is above my clearance! In fact, I do not know what a Regulation 135.17/69A-12B is! All I know is that I have encountered a Commie Mutant Traitor and he has violated it! Yes friend Computer! I will gladly enter the reprocessing chamber for advanced hygenic discombobulation! </Paranoia> On a more serious note, I think a system like Manna would cause more trouble than it's worth. Although it would feasibly work on low-level menial jobs, as you get into more and more advanced situation you encounter things which simply cannot be broken down into steps. Areas such as innovation, research and development, and entertainment all require a level of competence and experience that goes far beyond a little voice telling you to do specific steps. The hacking possibilities are extremely amusing. Imagine what would happen... "Good morning Sally. Your first task will be to help the first customer. Is he male?" "Yes." "Excellent. Start by removing your blouse." It could happen. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

09-03-2003, 05:44 AM	#22 (permalink)
Darkblack Banned Location: Pennsytuckia	I read all 4 chapters and am awaiting the 5th on the 8th. Freaked me out man!

09-03-2003, 06:48 AM	#23 (permalink)
rockogre I aim to misbehave! Location: SW Oklahoma	Interesting article. I'll still bet on the humans. One virus, one power surge, one hacker and how will it work? What happens to your business when NO ONE thinks for themsleves when the computer dies? No way would I have a business in which no one could think on their own. I'm sure we will see some things like this occur but we will also see some spectacular failures. __________________ Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you, Jesus Christ and the American G. I. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

09-03-2003, 07:35 AM	#25 (permalink)
billege Watcher Location: Ohio	There is a certain pain I feel every time a human being hands me a burger. The human being serving me food has dreams, emotions, and feelings. Serving burgers is not a task that humans should have to do. Mopping floors, wiping windows, and jobs that fall in the "drudgery" catagory are below human capabilities. I hope that as soon as we are capable of pulling people out of those types of jobs, we do so. Evolution means we're going to have to move above work like that. I can only hope I live to see some of it. __________________ I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence: "My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

09-03-2003, 10:11 PM	#28 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	I don't know if the equation between true slavery and wage slavery can be upheld. A person working in McDonalds can't reasonably be called a slave because their live outside of the job is "free". They are not a chattel of McDonalds either. If they get sick and die, McDonalds doesn't lose a piece of its "property". That issue of ownership was probably one of the only things in human history that prompted masters to even try to feed their slaves. I really want to discuss this whole topic in terms of TOTAL control of all society because that is what the article implies. Depending on how you want to think about it, it was funny or inevitable or symbolic that the robotic takeover did not start at MIT, NASA, Microsoft or Ford. It started at a Burger-G restaurant in Cary, NC on May 17, 2010. The implication is this program led to total robotic control of society. Calling a burger flipper a 'slave of robots' is silly if the managing director is still human - If anything, 'manna' too is a slave of the human CEO. They can only ever truly be slave masters when they are running the company without any human authority above them. Even the means to use force (a basis of social control) can't be in human hands; hence no 'men with guns' are allowed. Now could humans be slaves to robots if this scenario of absolute power with no ultimate human authority were in place? Could this be done without a 'promotion program' or the illusion of human control? Well let's look at historical slavery. Could slaves be 'promoted'? Yes. In the US you had house slaves and field slaves. This promotion served a pupose. By separating out the lighter skinned house slaves you promoted division in the slave population and ensured that they would never unite and rise up against you. It was a social control. If they could save up the money, slaves in Ancient Rome could purchase their freedom. There was dissent and uprisings too, the largest of these being the Spartacus uprising with an army of 120 000 slaves. Rome defeated this group of course, but in the course of history Rome fell and the fall would not have been delayed by the efforts of a slave poulation who had no loyalty or love for the Empire. It could be said without a program of social control through division (the promotion program) slaves will revolt. The 'illusion program' would be an even more powerful control. I think even a 'cultural awareness' program would be needed. Would manna be programmed to encourage workers to talk, sing, laugh and interact or would it see that as prohibited redundant activity. If humans rose up, could they win? In this scenario, it's possible to give the computer all kinds of Godlike power. It could be said that a human hacker would not be skilled enough to stop the program. It could be said that a group of guerillas blowing up the robotics factory could never stop the whole operation. If faced with hopeless odds fighting against a Godlike power, would all humans give up and end their folly? Satan didn't; and a good many atheists would not accept the 'justice' of being sent to purgatory for their lack of belief. Would a computer faced with irrational resistance to its rule continue with heavy-handed oppression? Would it perhaps consider more subtle methods of social control such as cultivating an illusion of autonomy and bread and circuses? In the end, would it not discover that the 'illusion' and 'promotion' programs increased population and productivity 78% more than the 'robots with guns' and 'starvation threat' programs?

09-06-2003, 04:07 PM	#29 (permalink)
Stiltzkin Junkie	bloop... bleep bleep bloop "Hi, Mike." "Hello, Man." Mike could take HAL any day. __________________ The most important thing in this world is love.

09-06-2003, 07:26 PM	#30 (permalink)
Buk Addict Location: Seattle, WA	As a member of "middle management" and a pretty well paid member at that, I already see things like this in how corporations replenish stock, and attempt to schedule employees. Let me reassure you on one very important thing: Every single one of these programs that I have ever dealt with sucks giant donkey dick compared to a real person who knows what they are doing and is properly trainined. Technology as it stands now is not capable of relating to people and adjusting well enough to ever accomplish such a task effectively.

01-18-2004, 08:59 PM	#33 (permalink)
ApexgriN Tilted	http://www.plyojump.com/quro.html Qrio has a 60,000 word vocabulary, can learn the faces and voices of 10 people, and will learn about you over time, integrating this knowledge into your conversations as time goes on. According to Moores Law, your average $500 Compaq will have more processing power and memory than the human brain by 2050. Sony predicts that personal robots will be as common as PC's and cell phones in the 2010's. It's interesting how much money and resources Japan (including the government) is putting into Robotics. You do the math. BTW - I think the topic of this thread is a little bassackwards. I think it will be the robots doing all the grunt work, and it will be the few humans who still have jobs programming them. Doesn't it make more sense to pay a robot nothing to scrub the toilet? Why pay humans to do it? __________________ - apexGrin Last edited by ApexgriN; 01-18-2004 at 09:17 PM..

01-18-2004, 11:10 PM	#36 (permalink)
Fire Warrior Smith Location: missouri	it is already starting- computerized inventory is taking descisions out of "middle manager's" hands- the comp keeps track of all the stuff sold, and reorders, keeps track of sales- I just watched a walmart fabric department shut down for 30 minutes because the beepy scanny thingy went out and no one could do anything manualy- even though they were trained to- three employees could not figure out a course of action, untill a fourth (older) one (to clarify, older= late fifties, and worknig on 20 yrs there) came along and did the stuff by hand- comp inventory makes sense and keeps stuff cheap, so it will spread and improve- the good news is that the bigger the system the more bugs / loopholes for us to exploit- hard work no longer = prosperity around here, its all about the loopholes and sneakyness..... __________________ Thought the harder, Heart the bolder, Mood the more as our might lessens

01-18-2004, 11:48 PM	#37 (permalink)
PredeconInferno Reclusiarch Location: Unfortunately Houston, TX	the only thing left to do now is to bow to our new robot overlords. PS the marvin the martian icon rules. __________________ Samurai in Training Knowledge is power. Guard it well.