BadNick

ahhh uhhh!!! Another denial that Canadians are also Americans.

ring

Havre, Montana - 1999

bagatelle

This is so wrong!

You need to make them log on more often - gives us Finns a better chance in hockey AND curling, if more Canadians stay online.

__________________

EmbraceOfWinter

I thought Canada was a U.S. state

genuinegirly

Don't feel too bad. 15% of U.S. citizens probably think the same.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Leto

It's better that way. Staying under the radar is a good thing.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Baraka_Guru

How can that be? We're too socialist.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

rmarshall

Sorry.

__________________
"Do not resent growing old. Many are denied the privilege" Irish proverb

ZombieSquirrel

__________________
Attack ZombieSquirrels

Baraka_Guru

Some call it a "Web addiction."

I call it six months of winter.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Leto

two solitudes.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

james t kirk

I think what totally freaks out some (key word some) Americans is that we speak the same language (for the most part), may even have the same accent, more or less the same cultural make-up, yet we have no desire to be Americans. I think it's a War of 1812 thing. If you guys had of just left us alone, we might have joined you (even the British thought that in 1812), but after 1812, all bets were off.

Thanks guys for helping to forge our nation.



Truth be told (and I've been told this by Americans) that people the North Eastern US states have more in common with people in Toronto and Ontario than they do with Americans in the south and the bible belt. At one time a group of guys from our office in Boston were working in the T.O. office for a year and they told me they quite liked it and felt at home whereas a couple of them who had worked in Atlanta felt like sqare pegs in round holes.

Ditto those in BC and Washington state.

Or those in the Maritime provinces and the Atlantic states.

Charlatan

Kirk... I am convinced it's a weather thing. The northern states have similar weather to Canada. The southern states, and their warm climates, breed a different social and political beast.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Redlemon

(Posted with love.)

__________________
I can't read your signature. Sorry.

snowy

Geographically, the regionalism here runs from B.C. south to Eugene, Oregon, although some suggest it goes even further, all the way down to Northern California (especially Humboldt County ) I think you could pretty safely lump everyone on the west side of the Cascade Mountains together and they'd be fine with that.

See also: Ecotopia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Cascadia (independence movement) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Baraka_Guru

We're like Fire and Ice.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Charlatan

That's a good read for any interested Canadian (or American)...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Fly

i'm too fucking polite to cop an attitude here..........


i wanna hooks it up with snowy one day too..........she's the ticket,even if she is a Yank...

__________________
BASTARD

SterlingStudios

Ourcrazymodern?

I'm too fucking impolite to not say anything...I might be stoned or something.

Snowy's not a fucking yank.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

james t kirk

It's probably a lot like this actually (though you might be able to extend Jesusland into Alberta....depending on who you talk to).

Baraka_Guru

Yeah, you're probably right.


If they, for example, consider Obama a socialist, they'd probably accuse me of being a Stalinist.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Zeraph

hah, never had disco phase was my favorite!

lol at the pic james

Ourcrazymodern?

There's got to be something wrong with that map...it represents that I'm in Canada right now! Another dream dashed.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Leto

Welcome eh!

Remember to take your shoes off at the door.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

The_Jazz

Minnesotans are just slightly better dressed Canadians, OCM.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Charlatan

Definitely need to make Alberta green in that map.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Amaras

Gentlemen,
Lest we forget, Quebec exisits. That would skew the otherwise excellent map.
It would probably ignore the rest of the map and overestimate it's own
importance.

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

Leto

I see Quebec on the map.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

james t kirk

Truth be told, Quebec is a big part of the reason that Canada is more liberal than the United states.

Quebec tends to pull the ROC a bit towards the left.

Charlatan

Truth.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Leto

So, a columnist in Buffalo is disillusioned by us Canucks... What I don't get is why Americans get hung up on tipping so much. I find the pre-occupation to be bit obsessive.


Disillusioned by northern neighbors

Updated: January 9, 2011, 7:27 AM

It is a good thing that the World Junior hockey tournament did not last any longer. Another week, and we might have had a border war.

Even as it was, I think we saw a different side of the normally placid, polite, patient good neighbors we thought we knew. Buffalo was invaded by a sea of red. The tide has receded, leaving behind some hard feelings, shattered stereotypes and an aftertaste as bad as the backwash from a warm Molson.

Whatever happened to the polite, humble, rule-respecting folks we thought we knew? Where were the civic-minded citizens who dutifully wait at the street corner when the traffic light is red, even when no cars are coming? Wherever you are, we want you back.

I am not sure if it was the insufferable sense of hockey superiority, or the pre-and post-game beers, but this tournament brought out the inner lout in a lot of Canadians. Arrogant, loud, drunk, obnoxious — if I didn’t know better, I would have thought that they were, well, Americans.

From the guy arrested for punching an American fan at the USA-Canada game, to the sea of red that adopted any team that the USA played, to the drunken red-clad louts at the New Year’s Eve ball drop (staggering, middle-aged, red-clad lady I saw clutching a half-empty bottle of vodka, this means you), to the legions of lousy tippers at bars and restaurants — a lot of Canadians wore out their welcome long before Russia shattered their gold medal dreams. Believe me, there were not a lot of Buffalonians crying over that outcome.

It was, well, dismaying. I have always enjoyed the peaceful co-existence and mutually advantageous relationship we have with our cold-climate cohorts.

Buffalonians like our weekends in big-city Toronto. We enjoy the better side of Niagara Falls. Many of us appreciate cross-border culture, from the Shaw Festival to the Canadian ballet. We relish pounding on Toronto’s hockey team, one of the Sabres’ few longtime whipping boys. And we forgive Torontonians the sterile Rogers Centre, as it is the closest viewing site for WNY’s legion of Yankee fans. We even overlook their use of “eh” as punctuation and their affection for the underwhelming Peace Bridge.

In return, Canadians like our 4 a.m. bar closing and our wings and the bargains at our malls and our City of Good Neighbors affability. As a demonstration of our generosity, we even share our football team with Toronto — although as gifts go, it ranks with the holiday fruitcake.

Make no mistake, we were more than happy the past couple of weeks to have Canadians sleep in our hotel rooms, eat in our restaurants, drink in our bars and shop in our malls. We love the uncommon smell of outside dollars. All we ask is that you do not be obnoxious about it.

In some cases, it was too much to ask. I talked to workers at a downtown bar/restaurant that will remain nameless, to protect the place’s cross-border business. By tournament’s end, they had disdain for all things emblazoned with a Maple Leaf. The main complaint, and this is not new, is a lot of Canadian hockey fans are awful tippers.

“They would have a few beers and leave like a quarter or 50 cents,” said one bartender, who for job security reasons asked that his name not be used. “Servers said they were getting two-dollar tips on a$25 check.”

OK, chronically bad tipping is not cause for a diplomatic crisis. But multiply it by a few thousand visitors, and you leave behind a lot of irritation.

So I think it is a good thing that this thing is over. I look forward to getting back to our usual, cozy, mutually beneficial relationship. Aside from everything else, it is tough to stay mad at the nation that gave us Molson’s and Labatt’s, eh?

desmonde@buffnews.com


Disillusioned by northern neighbors - Donn Esmonde - The Buffalo News



Meanwhile, on the north side of the border, reaction is a bit wounded...

Hockey fans feel high-sticked by columnist
Local News
By MONIQUE BEECH , STANDARD STAFF
Posted 2 hours ago


A column written by an American scribe taking aim at the "sea of red" that swept into Buffalo during the world junior hockey tournament has some fans this side of the border seeing red.

In a Sunday column, Donn Esmonde of the Buffalo News wrote that several people in the U.S. border city were taken aback by uncharacteristically loud, brazen, drunken Canadians who acted more like "Americans" during the 11-day hockey tournament, which ended Jan. 5.

Esmonde cited examples of a Canadian fan punching an American during the USA-Canada game, being "lousy tippers" at area bars and restaurants and suffering from a major hockey superiority complex.

The international event brought out a "different side of the normally placid, polite and patient good neighbors we thought we knew," Esmonde wrote.

Several indignant hockey fans in Niagara, many of whom crossed the border for one or more games, told The Standard that Esmonde's piece highlights just a few bad apples.

Many compared the passionate maple leaf hockey fervour to Americans' rowdy zeal for football and baseball.

Team Canada devotee Dave White, who attended six junior tournament hockey games, said the majority of Canadian and American hockey fans were respectful and well-behaved.

"I think (Esmonde) is picking out the worst things that happened," said White, who attended games with his wife, Tracey, and sons Nathan, 16, and Devin, 12.

"Obviously when the Americans come over here and we have a big thing going on, we don't put them down. I think there's a lot of good things that happened over there, too, right?"

Some Niagara residents pointed the finger back at Buffalonians, who they say could have treated Canadians, who accounted for about 75% of tickets sold at most games, a little better during the tournament.

Several readers who attended games cited examples of Buffalo police being "excessive" in their authority, parking lot operators gouging visitors with rates of up to $60 and restaurants and pubs charging cover or 10% exchange rates even though the U.S. and Canadian dollars were virtually at parity.

n Jeff Blay's view, Americans just don't understand Canadians in general and their religious devotion to hockey in particular.

Buffalonians especially don't have a lot of interest in getting to know their cross-border cousins, said Blay, a 21-year-old public relations intern with the OHL's Niagara IceDogs who attended a few games.

"I go to Florida and California a lot and they're interested and they like to hear about Canadian culture, but in Buffalo they hate it and it's just a 40-minute drive from the border," Blay said.

"When it comes to hockey, they definitely think it's a little ridiculous how much we like it. But I guess it's because they don't respect the sport as much as we do."

In his column, Esmonde takes great pains to call the relationship between Buffalonians and Canadians a "peaceful coexistence" and "mutually advantageous relationship." He writes that many people from his city enjoy going to Toronto and going to the Shaw Festival and other cultural events in Ontario.

While many downtown restaurant and bar workers in Buffalo were glad to see the red tide recede, Esmonde wrote that Canadians brought in a lot of "outside dollars."

In an interview, Esmonde said he wasn't surprised his column ruffled a few feathers this side of the border. Esmonde said he wrote the piece as a good-natured poke at Canadians and had a little fun with it.

But Esmonde said his column did capture the mood of several people in Buffalo who "were a little bit put out by some of the behaviour that they saw."

Canadians seemed to be a "little bit too exuberant" rooting against the United States, no matter whom the Americans were playing.

Esmonde said the special relationship between Canada and the U.S. is still intact, despite some rocky times during the hockey tournament.

"Again, it's hockey," Esmonde said. "It's hockey fans. Everybody gets exuberant. Hockey and beer kind of go together sometimes, before and after the games. It's like the old expression after three or four days, fish and visitors start to smell a little bit. After 11 days, I think it's understandable that there might be a little bit of fraying of nerves. I don't think it was an international incident."

Some on this side of the border agreed with Esmonde.

"The writer pretty much nailed this one as even I was surprised at how some Canadians acted ... towards our neighbours to the south," Matt Day of Dunnville wrote on The Standard's Facebook fan page.

"But, after all, this is hockey we're talking about, and it's just common knowledge that Canadians take the sport seriously. We're not normally 'unruly' and I'm glad he specifically mentions that."

Hockey fans feel high-sticked by columnist - St. Catharines Standard - Ontario, CA

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Tully Mars

I live in a town in Mexico that has a somewhat large Canadian population. Rumor has it a couple Canadians found this place 30 yrs ago and kept their mouth shut about it. This was probably smart on their part. I have a lot of Canadian friends. For the most part they are great group down here and I usually like hanging out with them. Usually. I say usually because just like any other culture they have their own idiosyncrasies. Some are appealing, some not so much. In the same way you can normally pick out the obnoxious American in any airport lounge within mere seconds and inviting a Mexican over to your house for a drink and be an all night experience (and he may get on the phone and invite his whole family to join in on the party) like it or not- some Canadians have habits I find annoying.

For example- going out to dinner with a large group of Canadians can be less then enjoyable. The last time (and I do mean the last time) I went out with a group of Canadians, they were approx. 30 of us and I was one of two Americans in the group. I believe each Canadian requested a separate check. This was fun to watch because most refuse to learn any Spanish and hence did not speak enough to make their intentions clear to the waiter. A lot of the Canadians have taken the attitude of "we're spending a lot of money here, our money keeps this town a float… least "they' could do is learn to speak English." First you're out numbered 500-1, your money may add to the economy but you're not keeping the town running. Second you're in their country and you don't think learning their language might make more sense? Anyway we ordered and, give or take, about 1/2 of the diners decided to try to order items not on the menu. Again the lack of Spanish did not help. Here it's almost odd to find a restaurant that actually has all the items listed on the menu available. Items not on the menu? Umm, no. You're in a small Mexican beach town if you do not like the local food you should either eat at home or drive into Merida, a much larger city, where you can find anything from Sushi to decent Italian. Announcing to the table/restaurant "I hate Mexican food, looks like someone in the kitchen already ate it for lunch and now they're trying to serve it to me" Is not polite and there is a pretty good chance someone will understand your words. When your food does arrive I will not trade plates with you.

When the check arrived it was all on one ticket, what a shock! 30 people with drinks came to about 140 USD, really not bad. I know my meal, with drink, was $4. Most of the Canadians went into panic mode. "Who had what?" "Who owes what?" "How the heck are we supposed to figure this out?" "No kidding, it's all in Spanish (again, big shock!)" Someone, a Canadian, suggested we just divide the bill evenly. That was fine with me but was met with death stares from several people. After 20mins of "what do we do? What do we do?" It was decided to pass the check around the table and each person put in the amount they owed. That led to another 30mins of people requesting change for larger notes so they could pay exactly what they owed. The end result was a huge pile of small bills and a shit load of change. The tray the check arrived on had to be exchanged for a dinner plate and likely weighed about 5lbs. I was second to last and I put in roughly $8 for my meal plus tip. I figured if I paid double it might help offset anyone who short changed on the tip. The last guy to pay was sitting to my left and I noticed, after counting through all the cash for 15mins. And looking at the check he put in $2 for he and his wife's meals and drinks. I asked if it was covered and he assured me it was- complete with tip! I noticed the waiter counting it out and I waited to see his reaction. It did not look good. I went up and asked if it was all accounted for and was told "yes the meal is paid for?" "And the tip?' The man turned, faced me and threw his arms up stating "7 pesos, 7 pesos!" By this time the only other American there had joined me and asked if there was a problem. I told him the tip came out to 7 pesos. We each put in another $15-17 (200 pesos.) I returned to the table and the guy who had the check last asked me if there was some problem. I told him the tip only came out to 7 pesos. He said "yeah, I know I counted to make sure there was a tip." "And you thought on $140 USD check 7 peso was a reasonable tip?" "Really? 7 pesos?" "Yeah, pesos are like dollars to these people." Umm, no dollars are like dollars to these people and the wait staff in most restaurants work solely for tips. And seriously even if pesos were like dollars... $7 on a $140? Are you fucking stupid or insane? People don’t normally tip in Canada, fine I get that. But you’re not in Canada, here the wait staff depends on tips to feed their family. You want to dine out and not tip, move to a country where that is the culture… you know like Canada.

I have list in my head of Canadians I will dine out with but its way less than half of those who live here. Attend a party with them, sure, great. Enjoy a movie out with them, absolutely. Dinner out? At a restaurant? In public?… Yeah that’s not happening… never again. Rather have my balls pounded flat with a wooden mallet. I think it would be less painful and over quicker.

Another thing I will no longer do is invite Canadians over to watch hockey games. I don’t care if I do have one of the few systems that can get the games. Buy your own system; I’ll install it for free. I’ve just had one too many drunken Canadians yell stuff like “in your face, in your fucking face!” At me, in my house while eating my food and drinking my booze in regards to a game I really don’t understand, care to watch or even really like.

There are a lot of things I do enjoy about my Canadian neighbors down here but I’ve had way too many of the above two incidents to enjoy everything about all of them.

Now someone needs to starts a why Americans should either stay home or learn some culture prior to traveling thread. I could write three times the rant I just wrote on Canadians on the subject of dumbass Americans and the stupid fucking things they do. Maybe I’ll start that thread myself after lunch.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Leto

Ouch... on the restaurant anecdote. Precisely the reason I often steal away from the table before the check arrives (to dash ? naa lol) but to pay for it without having to do that splitting the bill crap. Last time I did it at the Mongolian Grill (12 people $325 plus tip) and later on some - but not all - the folks threw some dough my way. $140 bucks at a resort? no problem.

On the hockey game? Good times eh? That's what I'm talkin about! In Your Face, IN Your Fuckin' Face! man.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Tully Mars

140 at a resort? No way. I do not live in a resort town. I live in a small fishing village. Last time I went to one of the big resorts near Cancun the meals there were around $90 a plate for dinner. Beers at the swim up bar in the pool (good place for a swim up bar) were $10 a can, reg. 12oz can. I (we) ate either in our room/condo w/kitchen or went out to a more reasonable restaurant in Play de Carmen. When I checked out the lady thought there was something wrong with my bill, only had tax on it. She called a manager and they talked it over. I asked if there was a problem. The manager stated "the restaurants and bars haven't added your bill and we're trying to find it." He looked shocked when I told him I hadn't eaten or drank anything from the resort. I asked him if he'd pay $10 for one beer and he looked around a bit and shook his head no. I paid my $32 tax for the week and drove home.

As for hockey.. yep in my face, in my fucking face! Like I'm even rooting for one team or the other. Honestly I only invited them for a few games after they found out I get Shaw Direct and begged. But was done with that after stuff like in my face and being knocked off my on couch by a guy screaming "that's icing the puck! WTF!" I honestly don't know what icing the puck is, isn't always on ice?

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Leto

oh Tully Tully.... *Sigh* IF the puck is in your defensive zone, and one of your players dumps it out past 2 red lines (inclusive of the opposite team's goal line) this is icing the puck. the on ice official must then whistle the play stopped, and resumes play with a faceoff within the defensive zone of the team that committed the infraction. This penalizes the team for dumping the puck and in effect disrupting the play. the only time that a team can ice the puck, whithout penalty, is when they opposing team has a power-play.

I can understand the excitement that ensued, as it appears that the infraction was not called and I'm sure that the knocking of you off the couch was not intentional, but nonetheless rude if not apologized for. But still, good times! Ah nothing like a good hockey controversy is there?

sorry about the resort reference - my mistake, Canadians often mistake ALL Mexican destinations for resorts. But my point being, at a $140 I would just pay for the cheque. Not sure why these guys were so uptight about it.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Tully Mars

You know I really tried to get into the games, thought it would be a good way to meld with the local, heavily Canadian, gringo community here. Not sure if it was the actions of a few while here at the house watching the games or maybe hockey just isn't for me. Either way I'm now onto trying to like socc.. sorry football since all my Mexican friends are completely insane about it. maybe more so then the Canadians about hockey if you can believe that. So far that's not going any better then hockey.


I think part of it is the folks I'm dealing with are all retired and most have no interest in change. Really retired Americans are no different, they just have different things they don't want to change. Most of them have no interest in learning Spanish, which I find odd. If nothing else it's nice to know what people around you are saying. But, meh, to each their own.

I thought about picking up the check but was kind of fascinated watching the whole thing. I'd been out with smaller groups, one/two couples so I'd seen this before. I think I kind of figured with a group this large they'd just divide the check and call it a day. Seriously for some couples who had no drinks it was less then $4 for their total. Turns out they wanted to make damn sure they didn't accidentally pay $4.25 and were willing to spend a lot of time and effort on it.

I made sure the waiter got his tip and decided I've seen enough to know I don't want to do that again.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

The_Jazz

This is the politest complaint thread ever.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Leto

Sorry.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Tully Mars

Yeah, my bad too.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

Ourcrazymodern?

Taking my shoes off, & impolitely wondering about who owes what, I have to wonder if our comrades to the north aren't chuckling about this most heartily of all?

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT