my rights under the Montreal Convention 1999 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dlish · 05-15-2010, 05:16 AM

I need some advise from you smart people at TFP...

To put everyone in the picture, not very long ago i travelled outside of the UAE, with she-lish and baby-lish with a local carrier. I dont really want to name the name of the airline here, but they lost baby-lish's stroller and we never got it back. we had as top over in another country for a very short period of time ( about 2 hours), and we did not leave the airport, but went straight into transit) i was forced to buy a brand new stroller when i arrived at my holiday destination, and thus incurred a loss. a quite significant one at that.

Once i arrived at the airport, airport staff asked me to see the airline involved, which i did immediately in the airport. the airline staff told me that they couldn't do anything there, and gave me a number to call who could take my report and locate the stroller. I called the number and spoke to someone who said that they thought they knew where it was and would send it back to the UAE when they located it. They didnt give me a report number.

when i arrived back in the UAE the stroller wasnt waiting for me at the airport. Ive been chasing up the airline who have sub standard customer service and after service care. all my correspondance has been in writing, and i have a legitimate claim and have provided the reciept of the original stroller. what the airline is saying is that they appreciate that i have a legitimate claim because of the paperwork i provided and they can see that the stroller didnt arrive at my holiday destination from the tag details, but because i dont have a claim number from the same day of the loss of the stroller, they cannot go any further with my claim.

ive been doing some more research and have come across the Montreal Convention 19999, which is supposed to have superseded the warsaw convention which gives rights to air passengers for their losses. the UAE is not a signatory to this convention, but has ratified it in 2007 along iwth 96 other members.

does anyone have any experience with this convention?
do i have a right to claim against this law or the warsaw convention?
does anyone have any insiders knwoledge im missing that i can claim?

any help would be appreciated. im sick of having big business walk over the little guy when they are so obviously at fault!

BadNick · 05-15-2010, 06:23 AM

sorry for your problems, dlish. I would more aggressively press the customer service manager of the airline who mishandled the stroller shipment.

As far as the Montreal Convention, all I'm saying is GO FLYERS!!! ...the Philadelphia FLYERS not airline flyers ...except for dlish and family, they're the best

Mister Coaster · 05-15-2010, 06:30 AM

If it all can be traced back to the policy of "No claim check, no merchandise." Realistically, anyone COULD have come up with all of that stuff and there still be no record of you being the owner of said lost stroller. I believe your story, I'm sure they beleive your story, but it's all about money. If they can have one shred of doubt, then the'll simply deny the claim and move on to the next poor schlubb who got their shit lost.

Airlines lose luggage... both on accident and on purpose. When things get "lost" there is rarely a big push to find it. In fact, it's a huge side business for them. They actually have stores where you can buy all sorts of stuff that has been "lost" in transit. I'm sure your stroller can be purchased from that airline's lost luggage store, if someone else hasn't simply stolen it already.

Sorry to hear the story, but I doubt there is anything that can be done at this point.

snowy · 05-15-2010, 06:46 AM

After my SO's parents went to NZ and my future MIL broke her ankle on a backpacking trip there, I've come to learn the value of travel insurance for big trips. They had comprehensive travel insurance, but there are other, less expensive options.

Just as an example, American Express offers some great travel services, among them baggage protection ($9.95 per person, per trip; you have to be a cardholder and charge the cost of the airline ticket to your Amex). There are lots of other companies that offer similar services, i.e. travel insurance just for bags. Personally, I'd rather be out the $9.95 at the end of the trip, not having needed my travel insurance, than to be out the cost of replacement goods had I not gotten travel insurance.

I suggest this because I don't think you're going to have much luck with the airline. Sorry, dlish.

dlish · 05-15-2010, 07:06 AM

so you think that im fighting a futile cause?

the airline has acknowledged that i couldnt have possibly recieved the stroller since it was put on the carousel at the stopover, when it should have been transferred onto the next plane. since we went straight into transit for the next flight, i could argue that we never recieved it. it was physically impossible to take the stroller because we didnt go through customs. This is quite obvious from the tags because all the bags with the exception of the stroller had the same tags. i'm sure if they looked hard enough they would find my stroller with my tag still on it.

i'd like to think that i'd at least have a shot at it if i could argue that the Montreal Convention takes precedance over any airline policy.

the fact of the matter is that i was advised by THEIR airline staff to call the number and not fill in the paperwork. They advised me to break their own protocol, so i had done nothing wrong when reporting the lost stroller.

They told me a few days ago that they couldnt break policy in compensating me in case they get audited, which i understand..but i just want my damn stroller back!

apart from the fact that it was an expensive brand new stroller (and it cost me even more to buy another one while on holidays) and the inconvenience caused, i'd love to have a go at these bastards if i think ive got a shot.

---------- Post added at 01:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 AM ----------

FYI

this is from the Montreal Convention

Quote:

Article 17 - Death and injury of passengers - damage to baggage.

1. The carrier is liable for damage sustained in case of death or bodily injury of a passenger upon condition only that the accident which caused the death or injury took place on board the aircraft or in the course of any of the operations of embarking or disembarking.

2. The carrier liable for damage sustained in case of destruction or loss of, or of damage to, checked baggage upon condition only that the event which caused the destruction, loss or damage took place on board the aircraft or during any period within which the checked baggage was in the charge of the carrier. However, the carrier is not liable if and to the extent that the damage resulted from the inherent defect, quality or vice of the baggage. In the case of unchecked baggage, including personal items, the carrier is liable if the damage resulted from its fault or that of its servants or agents.

3. If the carrier admits the loss of the checked baggage, or if the checked baggage has not arrived at the expiration of twenty-one days after the date on which it ought to have arrived, the passenger is entitled to enforce against the carrier the rights which flow from the contract of carriage.

4. Unless otherwise specified, in this Convention the term "baggage" means both checked baggage and unchecked baggage.

roachboy · 05-15-2010, 07:58 AM

the wording of the convention would lead me to think that the claim is worth pursuing. the problem obviously is that there's no waybill or other documentation beyond the claim check...so no insurance, which would be the way to go here, ideally. you'd get paid out from the insurance co. and they can deal with the kafka-esque bureaucracy of the airlines. which i would imagine they don't actually do, the pay-out being paid for in the aggregate by other premiums paid in that weren't reversed through loss or whatever...wouldn't be worth the insurance company's trouble to fight them i wouldn't think.

ANYWAY a long time ago i worked in logistics and that's what my input's based on.

so the catch-22 that you're presented with is that the person who you initally dealt with didn't give a claim number, which is what allows the airline to now claim there is no claim even though when presented with the documentation they concede that there is a claim they just can't quite figure out which claim is the claim that you have. that sound about accurate? (yikes)

so there's some kind of shift that was to happen in their bureaucracy from potential claims resolved straight away (because the item is still inside the immediate stream of luggage and other stuff and is simply in the wrong place so it can be tracked and moved about, which requires no particular paperwork just scans of barcodes and stuff) and an actual claim (which happens at the point the item seems to disappear)...and (in effect) the airline's now trying to tell you that it was incumbent on you to make this transition?
that makes sense how?

i assume that since it's a personal effect and wasn't worth like 500 dollars (was it?) that you didn't have to clear anything with customs, correct? so there's no paper trail in that way and there's also no broker involved, right?

seems to me that the next move to make would be to talk with a broker who deals with airfreight and suss out what options you might have, if they know (they might)...

my advice is to pursue it a couple steps further anyway as the basis is there...the issue is procedural. but you knew that when you posted the thread. so i am thinking this response isn't really helping. but that's what i'd do.

Lindy · 05-15-2010, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

...the issue is procedural. but you knew that when you posted the thread. so i am thinking this response isn't really helping. but that's what i'd do.

I think this is right. The claims clerk might be perfectly willing to accommodate you if he could find some way to do it without violating procedures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

...I dont really want to name the name of the airline here ....sick of having big business walk over the little guy when they are so obviously at fault!

Then WHY NOT name the airline???
Businesses hate bad publicity over what has to be (to them) a trivial amount of money. Try contacting some organization with clout like Consumer Reports or Trip Advisor.com and see if they'll go to bat for you.

Lindy

cj2112 · 05-15-2010, 09:30 AM

Go over the head of whoever you're dealing with. There is somebody at the airline w/ the authority and brains to see that the airline screwed up and owes you for the stroller. I would go up the ladder, politely, until I got somebody to honor the claim.

dlish · 05-15-2010, 09:54 AM

thanks RB. The clerk dealing iwth my case has told me that they'd pay for my losses if they were presented with a claim number. She cannot generate a claim number for me and i cannot (according to her) have one generated now since 'the system' wont allow her to generate one. The only paper trail of the stroller is the baggage tag that proves that it never arrived at its intended destination.

the losses for the original stroller was about 1500 USD. Yes, you read that right. the 2nd stroller i bought as a replacement was worth around 600 USD. so theres a potential claim for 2100. Ive read a bit more of the Convention that states that court and lawyer fees would need to be paid by the airline if i wanted to take it legal and actually won.

I could use this information as a threat to the airline. A legal case that was clear cut could push them to settle the case, even if it did go against company protocols. i'm leaning with CJ and leaping a few levels. It's just difficult cutting through beurocracy and getting some names, numbers and email addressess.

blahblah454 · 05-15-2010, 10:17 AM

Ouch this is really terrible dlish. I hope it works out and you can help all of us out if this were to ever happen to us. It really sucks when the big companies do stuff like this to us little folk.

roachboy · 05-15-2010, 11:34 AM

1500? us? damn. a segue?
you weren't required to do anything with customs for this because it was checked as luggage. there's no broker involved for the same reason.
you might call or contact a broker that arranges for movements of personal effects by air. this because most people i knew who worked in that area dealt with how stupifying alot of the work was by becoming a make-believe lawyer. this can be useful in situations like this. the upside is that it might catch someone's interest who knows how to deal with this sort of thing or who knows someone at the airline (that could be key)...the downside is that you may or may not have to hire them. i doubt the latter tho as the transit is already done.

the broker because they'd know more tricks than i would and it's likely that if they're dealing with moving personal effects by airfreight that they've had experience with checked luggage going missing from a client.

just to see if there are options none of us know about or have thought of.

inBOIL · 05-15-2010, 05:45 PM

Is there some kind of Action Line in any of the local papers in Dubai? They're often able to get better resolutions from companies because of their position in the media.

05-15-2010, 05:16 AM	#1 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	my rights under the Montreal Convention 1999 I need some advise from you smart people at TFP... To put everyone in the picture, not very long ago i travelled outside of the UAE, with she-lish and baby-lish with a local carrier. I dont really want to name the name of the airline here, but they lost baby-lish's stroller and we never got it back. we had as top over in another country for a very short period of time ( about 2 hours), and we did not leave the airport, but went straight into transit) i was forced to buy a brand new stroller when i arrived at my holiday destination, and thus incurred a loss. a quite significant one at that. Once i arrived at the airport, airport staff asked me to see the airline involved, which i did immediately in the airport. the airline staff told me that they couldn't do anything there, and gave me a number to call who could take my report and locate the stroller. I called the number and spoke to someone who said that they thought they knew where it was and would send it back to the UAE when they located it. They didnt give me a report number. when i arrived back in the UAE the stroller wasnt waiting for me at the airport. Ive been chasing up the airline who have sub standard customer service and after service care. all my correspondance has been in writing, and i have a legitimate claim and have provided the reciept of the original stroller. what the airline is saying is that they appreciate that i have a legitimate claim because of the paperwork i provided and they can see that the stroller didnt arrive at my holiday destination from the tag details, but because i dont have a claim number from the same day of the loss of the stroller, they cannot go any further with my claim. ive been doing some more research and have come across the Montreal Convention 19999, which is supposed to have superseded the warsaw convention which gives rights to air passengers for their losses. the UAE is not a signatory to this convention, but has ratified it in 2007 along iwth 96 other members. does anyone have any experience with this convention? do i have a right to claim against this law or the warsaw convention? does anyone have any insiders knwoledge im missing that i can claim? any help would be appreciated. im sick of having big business walk over the little guy when they are so obviously at fault! __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

05-15-2010, 06:30 AM	#3 (permalink)
Mister Coaster Big & Brassy Location: The "Canyon"	If it all can be traced back to the policy of "No claim check, no merchandise." Realistically, anyone COULD have come up with all of that stuff and there still be no record of you being the owner of said lost stroller. I believe your story, I'm sure they beleive your story, but it's all about money. If they can have one shred of doubt, then the'll simply deny the claim and move on to the next poor schlubb who got their shit lost. Airlines lose luggage... both on accident and on purpose. When things get "lost" there is rarely a big push to find it. In fact, it's a huge side business for them. They actually have stores where you can buy all sorts of stuff that has been "lost" in transit. I'm sure your stroller can be purchased from that airline's lost luggage store, if someone else hasn't simply stolen it already. Sorry to hear the story, but I doubt there is anything that can be done at this point. __________________ If you have any poo... fling it NOW!

05-15-2010, 06:46 AM	#4 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	After my SO's parents went to NZ and my future MIL broke her ankle on a backpacking trip there, I've come to learn the value of travel insurance for big trips. They had comprehensive travel insurance, but there are other, less expensive options. Just as an example, American Express offers some great travel services, among them baggage protection ($9.95 per person, per trip; you have to be a cardholder and charge the cost of the airline ticket to your Amex). There are lots of other companies that offer similar services, i.e. travel insurance just for bags. Personally, I'd rather be out the $9.95 at the end of the trip, not having needed my travel insurance, than to be out the cost of replacement goods had I not gotten travel insurance. I suggest this because I don't think you're going to have much luck with the airline. Sorry, dlish. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

05-15-2010, 07:58 AM	#6 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	the wording of the convention would lead me to think that the claim is worth pursuing. the problem obviously is that there's no waybill or other documentation beyond the claim check...so no insurance, which would be the way to go here, ideally. you'd get paid out from the insurance co. and they can deal with the kafka-esque bureaucracy of the airlines. which i would imagine they don't actually do, the pay-out being paid for in the aggregate by other premiums paid in that weren't reversed through loss or whatever...wouldn't be worth the insurance company's trouble to fight them i wouldn't think. ANYWAY a long time ago i worked in logistics and that's what my input's based on. so the catch-22 that you're presented with is that the person who you initally dealt with didn't give a claim number, which is what allows the airline to now claim there is no claim even though when presented with the documentation they concede that there is a claim they just can't quite figure out which claim is the claim that you have. that sound about accurate? (yikes) so there's some kind of shift that was to happen in their bureaucracy from potential claims resolved straight away (because the item is still inside the immediate stream of luggage and other stuff and is simply in the wrong place so it can be tracked and moved about, which requires no particular paperwork just scans of barcodes and stuff) and an actual claim (which happens at the point the item seems to disappear)...and (in effect) the airline's now trying to tell you that it was incumbent on you to make this transition? that makes sense how? i assume that since it's a personal effect and wasn't worth like 500 dollars (was it?) that you didn't have to clear anything with customs, correct? so there's no paper trail in that way and there's also no broker involved, right? seems to me that the next move to make would be to talk with a broker who deals with airfreight and suss out what options you might have, if they know (they might)... my advice is to pursue it a couple steps further anyway as the basis is there...the issue is procedural. but you knew that when you posted the thread. so i am thinking this response isn't really helping. but that's what i'd do. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-15-2010, 09:54 AM	#9 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	thanks RB. The clerk dealing iwth my case has told me that they'd pay for my losses if they were presented with a claim number. She cannot generate a claim number for me and i cannot (according to her) have one generated now since 'the system' wont allow her to generate one. The only paper trail of the stroller is the baggage tag that proves that it never arrived at its intended destination. the losses for the original stroller was about 1500 USD. Yes, you read that right. the 2nd stroller i bought as a replacement was worth around 600 USD. so theres a potential claim for 2100. Ive read a bit more of the Convention that states that court and lawyer fees would need to be paid by the airline if i wanted to take it legal and actually won. I could use this information as a threat to the airline. A legal case that was clear cut could push them to settle the case, even if it did go against company protocols. i'm leaning with CJ and leaping a few levels. It's just difficult cutting through beurocracy and getting some names, numbers and email addressess. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

05-15-2010, 06:23 AM	#2 (permalink)
BadNick Riding the Ocean Spray Location: S.E. PA in U Sofa	sorry for your problems, dlish. I would more aggressively press the customer service manager of the airline who mishandled the stroller shipment. As far as the Montreal Convention, all I'm saying is GO FLYERS!!! ...the Philadelphia FLYERS not airline flyers ...except for dlish and family, they're the best

05-15-2010, 09:30 AM	#8 (permalink)
cj2112 Unbelievable Location: Grants Pass OR	Go over the head of whoever you're dealing with. There is somebody at the airline w/ the authority and brains to see that the airline screwed up and owes you for the stroller. I would go up the ladder, politely, until I got somebody to honor the claim.

05-15-2010, 10:17 AM	#10 (permalink)
blahblah454 Let's put a smile on that face Location: On the road...	Ouch this is really terrible dlish. I hope it works out and you can help all of us out if this were to ever happen to us. It really sucks when the big companies do stuff like this to us little folk.

05-15-2010, 11:34 AM	#11 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	1500? us? damn. a segue? you weren't required to do anything with customs for this because it was checked as luggage. there's no broker involved for the same reason. you might call or contact a broker that arranges for movements of personal effects by air. this because most people i knew who worked in that area dealt with how stupifying alot of the work was by becoming a make-believe lawyer. this can be useful in situations like this. the upside is that it might catch someone's interest who knows how to deal with this sort of thing or who knows someone at the airline (that could be key)...the downside is that you may or may not have to hire them. i doubt the latter tho as the transit is already done. the broker because they'd know more tricks than i would and it's likely that if they're dealing with moving personal effects by airfreight that they've had experience with checked luggage going missing from a client. just to see if there are options none of us know about or have thought of. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-15-2010, 05:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
inBOIL I have eaten the slaw	Is there some kind of Action Line in any of the local papers in Dubai? They're often able to get better resolutions from companies because of their position in the media. __________________ And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.