dlish

Is Chivalry really dead?

Are men still expected to do these sorts of things that exhume chivalry for their female partners?

Open doors, buy dinner etc. or have women killed Chivalry?

Has the feminist movement killed chivalry by changing womens' perception on what they should expect out of life, and how men should treat them?

Has their vision of equality led them (and led their males counterparts) to believe that they are indeed equals? and have men become too complacent to really try hard enough thus exascerbating the idea that men dont try hard enough? is it a result of the men, or is it a reaction to the females view on the relationship between men and women?

Is chivalry dead?


lots of questions, and im expecting lots of varied views and answers.

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The_Dunedan

No, just having a little trouble with that whole circulation/respiration thing. The life support equipment helps, but we're not really sure if it can save the patient or just keep them alive and in pain.

It depends upon the partner, social setting, phase of the moon, etc. Some partners like chivalrous behavior, some do not. In some areas it's considered acceptable, and in others a chivalrous male can expect to be attacked by rabid Femicentrists for so much as opening a door.

Certain segments of the Feminist movement (what I refer to as the Femicentrist or Vagofixated wing) have -tried- to kill chivalry by insisting that it is, instead of simple good manners, a conscious demeaning of women carried out and carried on by vicious, hateful, violent, testosterone-poisoned male-chauvanists who are probably just looking for their next rape victim anyway. Pat Conroy has a -beautiful- segment in "The Prince Of Tides" illustrating this, wherein a screeching harridan threatens to gouge the eyes out of a Southron character who dares to open a door for her. Having had my genitals threatened in similar fashion for the same act, I would hold that the Vagocentric wing of the Feminist movement exercises some appeal and authority, and yes, has done their level best to kill chivalry and good manners.

ironpham

My ex was the president of the feminist club in an all girls university. She even majored in women's studies, so she's pretty much a hardcore feminist.

I am a very chivalrous person. At least, I do try to be. And, I can tell you, though she never asked me to be chivalrous, she definitely appreciated it - maybe even loved it (still does).

So, to answer your question, I don't think the feminist movement killed chivalry. It may have toned it down a bit, but I think it's still there. If anything is killing chivalry, it's the laziness of man.

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Borla

It's not dead, but it's been beaten within inches of it's life.



In the past, things were far too male-dominated. There is no doubt about that, and the unfairness and unjustness many women have suffered from it. I think some would argue that it's gone to extremes the other way now, at least in some cases. If you want equality in all things, that is fine. But when each sex completely morphs away from traditional gender roles, it's not fair to pick and choose things that benefit yourself while not allowing reciprocation.

For instance, is it fair for the woman to expect the man to do all the so-called "manly" things like shovel snow, open doors, take out the garbage, etc., while she doesn't choose to do the things on the other end of the spectrum like cooking, laundry, etc.?

I'm not arguing one way or the other, just throwing out some thoughts for consideration. IMO, individuals have to figure out what works for them personally, and for their partners if they are in a relationship. If I'm ok with the role I'm playing as a man (mow the grass, main breadwinner, be the handyman) and my wife is ok with her role as a woman (most of the cleaning, grocery shopping, cooking), why should it matter to anyone else? If it is far different in someone else's relationship, but they are both fine with it, who am I to question their values/roles?

For me personally, my role includes opening doors, doing almost all the driving, paying for dinner, and other things that I guess could call somewhere in the 'chivalry' catagory. But I see how some guys get fed up with it.

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Plan9

I used to think chivalry meant standing up for those who couldn't do such for themselves... something that died off a long time ago.

This thread appears to be All About The Pussy (TM). Men doing cutesy courtship things for women because they're delicate / providers of sexual pleasure.

...

I'm an "asshole," but I'll drop my two cents anyway...

Society killed chivalry. We're all "equal" on paper despite the relics of 1950s family values that many of us subscribe to these days. This isn't bad or wrong; it's a sign of social evolution. It's a product of our fast-paced lifestyle, individualism, materialism, and selfcenteredness. Me, me, me.

I'm generally more into the we're-a-couple-of-robots-deal-with-it philosophy these days. I'm tired of I Am Woman Here Me Roar followed by a crying fit / didn't-get-what-I-want tantrum. It's not that I don't have emotions, I just don't want them to rock me like a hurricane (Skorpions-style) every 48 hours.

Generalizations are helpful and it's not unwise to acknowledge the differences between men and women... unless you're a man talking to a woman. I've only encountered a few women that are willing to admit the differences and work to prevent them from creating too much friction.

It really kinda sucks. With gender rolls shifting to what they have, it gets really confusing to interact initially and during an ongoing relationship.

...

I was going to say something about the modern relationships and the commodification of sex but that's a can't-touch-this topic.

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Terrell

Guess it depends on the man, and which women he's tried to be chivalorous with. Some women do get angry about you opening a door for them, others don't. Men may simply tire of having arguments with women, over such things, and may choose to modify their behaviour accordingly. Doesn't mean that men don't want to be nice to women, especially ones they like, but sometimes it's not just worth the effort.

Baraka_Guru

It's not dead.

I'm readily chivalrous toward both genders.

If a woman ever gave me a bad time for opening the door for her, I'd calmly explain to her that I would have done the same if she were a man. Depending on who it is, I might even explain to her how I find it a bit disconcerting that she would turn a common courtesy into a frivolous and trivial gender issue. I might even tell her how it disappoints me.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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snowy

Well, first we should define chivalry. Many times, chivalry gets lumped in with acts of politeness/common courtesy, which is not really what chivalry is.

From the OED:

Chivalrous:
Is chivalry dead? Yeah. It's been dead for a while, if we stick to the definition provided by the OED.

Is common courtesy dead? I hope not, and I certainly hope that the feminist movement hasn't changed common courtesy; rather, I hope that the feminist movement has made common courtesy more equitable.

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Baraka_Guru

snowy, I didn't want to open that can of worms. We know what dlish is talking about.

But it could be argued that chivalry isn't dead, even in that case. I'd like to think I have a certain amount of courage, honour, courtesy, justice, and a readiness to help the weak.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

snowy

Chivalry, to me, is a word whose meaning gets misused and abused; people toss it around when really they mean common courtesy. I thought the distinction needed to be made.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Baraka_Guru

But I would argue that when most people use the word today, it means "the common courtesy and special treatment that men show women of romantic interest," or something to that effect. My definition is more about what I posted above.

It's one of those words that no longer mean what they're really supposed to mean, but sometimes you've just gotta go with contemporary usage.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

...like I said. Chivalry isn't about the toilet seat being down.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

Yeah, I always shake my head whenever "chivalry" is brought up, and along comes "opening doors" in the same breath. WTF?

When I think of chivalry, I think of more serious issues:

Day to day, will I:

• Avoid insulting someone for any reason?
• Use my manners where the social setting requires them?
• Defend someone if they are being treated unjustly?
• Treat strangers and friends alike with respect and dignity?
• Go out of my way to help someone in need?
• Avoid causing discourtesy to someone, even if it requires giving up on something of my own desire?
• Not lie to cover my own ass, especially if it will harm others?
• Speak politely?
• Think about others, and not just myself?
• etc.....

Opening doors and picking up the dinner check is such a small piece of the puzzle.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

It's hard to have chivalry in a society that condemns vigilantism and glorifies the molasses-speed screw-your-buddy legal system.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

Even the most bravest of knights have crises of faith during their trials and tribulations, good Sir 9er!

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

You can't phase me, sir.

I'm a true believer.

...

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Baraka_Guru

God speed you, sir!

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

The_Dunedan

Sir 9, please you to alert me when thou reachest Castle Anthrax. And beguard well thyself there, good Sir; the ladies thereof and therein art a most beseeching and comely sort, much schooled in womanly virtues but lacking greatly in what some call "tact." Doubtless thou hast heard that even pure Sir Galahad, of oft-told legend, did find himself waylayed at this goodly if entrapping place.

Plan9

So... they're from New Jersey?

...

Fear not, I shall ready my lance.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

The_Dunedan

Good and brave Sir Knight, seekst thou also out Sir Robin, the Not-Quite-So-Brave-As-Sir-Lancelot, and bestir him thus as well. His lance needst much stiffening, along with his courage, and the ladies of Castle Anthrax may do him much good and physic healing. And take with thee as well Sir Walter Sobchak and Sir Skuddeth The Cross, for the preservation of thy bodies and favours; take thee as well such ladies as may wish to attend upon Castle Anthrax and its' servitors: I deem we have several such ladies hereabouts who may bestir themselves most hastily for such a mission.

Plan9

I wouldn't touch that with a 8 cubit circular length of lumber.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

LordEden

*****

Chivalry died for me when I realized that knights of ol' were not the good, helping, noble and honorable idealistic men that were told to me from stories and Hollywood movies. They were there for footman support, heavy charges to flanks, being a mobile force multiplier that couldn't be matched, and stopping power (not to mention political and social status).

Chivalry is dead because it was never alive to begin with. Chivalry is about as real as the honorable, hard only because he has to be, lonely captain of a pirate ship in those soft-porn novels that are marketed to women as "romance" novels. He didn't rescue a lady he picked up during a raid because he fell in love with her, he did it so he could rape the shit out of her then let his crew have their way with her he was done.

Good-manners? Being kind to your neighbor? The "Good Samaritan"? That shit is dead too. Everyone does something for a reason that revolves around their own need.

This is also coming from a person who held deep in his heart that he should always be kind/nice to women, be kind to strangers, act always with good intentions, and be the good-natured person he was raised to be. I learned the hard way that's a great way to become footstool if you expect people to treat you how you treat them.

/endbitterlittlemanrant

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spindles

I think it is sad that you feel this way. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in this world that will take advantage of your actions, but it is not necessarily always the case and doesn't invalidate the effort.

I think you just need to temper your good deeds with a bit of awareness, not kill them altogether.

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Charlatan

+ for common courtesy but I, for one, am glad that chivalry is dead.

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Plan9

Why?

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Charlatan

I don't like the smell of Chivalry. It smells of entitlement and codified behaviour.

I prefer to live my life in a situational manner with strong sense of common courtesy.

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roachboy

that chivarly/courtly romance stuff was a bit fucked up:


OMACL: Lancelot, or, The Knight of the Cart: Part I

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it make you sick.

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Lindy

+ 1 for not so common anymore courtesy (although I'm sure someone could deconstruct that word as well, it must smell of aristocracy and feudalism)

Lindy

Charlatan

Common courtesy smells of daisies and apple pie.

mmmm pie.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Xerxys

Chivalry is dead. Yes. Because in the first place it wasn't about being decent and kind to women. Goddamn it it was about being kind to EVERYONE!! Having another person like you for your good qualities.

I am courteous and all that blah blah blah because it is practical. Not because I am a good person. When I tried to be chivalrous to women, on the other hand, it came off as pretentious and full laden with hidden agendas. Turns out women just want you to somewhat tactfully keep it real with them.

So is it dead? No. But this ...
this was AWESOME dude. Simply brilliant.

HannaH13

R - E - S - P - E - C - T.
Man, woman, child, elder, authority figure, pan handler ... respect is chivalry ... or the other way 'round.
And ... in the U.S. respect is dead.

pan6467

I don't believe it is dead. I think it is still alive and well. The problem is the minority of assholes taint the good people. Plus, when people are hurting economically and in a society where it seems business comes before the people, it taints people's views of what good there is and they are worried about what may happen, they are scared that someone may take advantage of them, the press advertises more depressing and pessimistic views than giving hope and focusing on what good does exist, and so on. But it is there, just have to open up and see it.

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kangaeru

Chivalry as it existed in the days of medieval knights is long gone, for sure.

But a lot of common social conceptions about how men should treat women (there's not really many the other way around to be honest) that are the descendants of Chivalry are definitely still alive and well.

1) If a ship is sinking or an army invading, it's still save the women and children first.

2) You still hold doors open for women (although this is really common courtesy to people in general)

3) Men are still expected to propose, not women

4) Men are still expected to pay for a lot, especially in the beginning of the courting process

5) Although gender roles are not set in stone, and some men stay at home, men are still expected to grind it out in society regardless of whether their spouses work or not. If a guy stays at home to raise his kids, I think he's either got a naturally weak character and has been brow-beaten into submission by an aggressive wife, or lazy.

6) It's a social norm that hitting women, even if they're hitting you or deserving of it, is forbidden. Yes, men have always beat women but the whole gender equality thing didn't lead to the logic "If a woman punches me in the face then I'm not a bag guy if I punch her back" This is because Chivalry espoused that women are the gentler gender, and the man would always be in a situation where he is abusing his superior physical power if it came to violence. It's dishonorable to fight an opponent who you know has no chance of winning.

I think Chivalry as it was originally defined is dead, but common politeness, and the social expectation that men sacrifice themselves in ways large and small for the good of women as a social status quo definitely persists in modern society.

Women have a lot of legitimate gripes about being treated unfairly vis-a-vis men in certain situations, but most forget that there are a LOT of unrecognized advantages to being a woman in this world. Well...maybe that's only if you're attractive.

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SaltPork

I still hold doors for women...even ones i don't know. i will help in Home Depot when i notice a confused woman, and I will open and close car dooors for my women, including my daughters. Part of it is simple common courtesy, the other part is treating someone humanely and acknowledging there existence by doing something nice. the whol pay it forward thing. It does make you feel good to do something nice for someoen, even if all you do is hold open a door.

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It was like that when I got here....I swear.

Ourcrazymodern?

I thought feminism was combatting chauvenism, not manners or society's mannerisms. Women who object to having doors held for them probably don't qualify as ladies.

re: 5),kangaeru, you've made an excruciatingly unchivalrous allegation.

I still sometimes wish I had a uterus.

dlish, (chivalry) won't die as long as there are people willing to give & take gracefully.

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genuinegirly

If a guy opens the door for me, he'd better not object if I open the door for him.
It only makes me pissed when someone won't allow me to return the favor.

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Cynthetiq

I'm not sure it's dead even in the common courtesy arena. What I can say is that there are people in certain brackets that seem to be more flustered about the changing etiquette rather than ebbing and flowing, bobbing and weaving.

I will hold the door open for anyone, old or young, male or female. I have not pulled out the chair for my wife in many years, if I ever even did it. The car door? Why? That's just silly and takes more time.

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LoganSnake

Chivalry is dead in most cases. This is evident by the myriad of thanks I sometimes get when I hold the door open for women (men just say a short thanks). However, that's just common courtesy of not letting a door slam into somebody's face.

However, I don't usually do more than that. Pull out your own fucking chair.

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dlish

i was on the 28E tram in Portugal and i scored a pretty cool seat after standing for a while. a few seconds later the tram stopped and some older people got on. there were no other 'courtesy seats' left so i got off my seat and gave it to the eldest man. he looked surprised, as if to ask 'why?', as did the rest of the people on the tram.

for the first time in my life, i felt embarrased for doing something i thought was a good thing.

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Plan9

Hey, maybe we should all just sit staring at the walls, avoiding eye contact and cranking the volume on our iPods.

Oh, wait... we do.

...

"Conditioned to self-interests with emotions locked away... if that's what they call normal than I'd rather be insane."

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"You should not drink... and bake."