Where Do You Draw The Line (Politics/Religion) - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

LordEden · 08-04-2009, 10:57 AM

Backstory: I sometimes do off-site service calls for my Step-dad's computer business. He handles most of them himself, but every once in awhile I help him out. Yesterday my step-dad got a call from an old lady who he has worked with before. She chain smokes Kool 100's and he couldn't stand the smell of her house. He asked me to go because he felt like his lungs might cave in. I don't smoke anymore, but it doesn't bother me to be around it. I show up at her house and start to work on her PC. During the service call I see she has a George W. Bush... wall. **This is not a political thread, I am not here to talk about our former presidents action's during his two terms.** She has a huge picture of him and alot of clippings about her work with the Republican Party. We are making small talk and she makes an offhand comment about Obama. I mutter a slight agreement with her and continue working on her PC. I change the subject and make small talk with her. I finish the service call, shake her hand, and go on my way with cash in hand.

Question: Would you have stated your support for an opposing view point? Would you have told her you disagree with her or just did like I did and agree for the sake of not wanting to argue.

I deal with this all the time with religion, as I am not part of the social norm that concerns religion (especially living deep in the bible belt). Unless really pressed by someone, I will ignore most comments about my views and religious beliefs (or lack there of). I think I've heard every racist Obama joke in the world, but I 99% of the time don't argue, as I don't believe you can really change someone's beliefs.

CinnamonGirl · 08-04-2009, 11:22 AM

I'm one of the most non-confrontational people ever, so I'll let a lot of things slide. I live in Southwest Ohio, and the majority of political & religious views here really clash with mine. Normally, I just smile and nod, and get on with what I'm doing.

Lasereth · 08-04-2009, 11:27 AM

Letting clients or employees know your religious or political beliefs can be dangerous. I keep them to myself at work unless I'm agreeing with the person I'm talking to.

Halx · 08-04-2009, 11:28 AM

If you're doing business, you should politely decline to comment.

Vigilante · 08-04-2009, 11:33 AM

I'm the same way, Eden. It depends alot on the situation. I am confrontational when the floor is open. I have no problem picking apart people's fragile mythology when they try to push their shit on me. However in a professional environment I almost always change the subject or say "uh huh" and go on with whatever I'm doing.

genuinegirly · 08-04-2009, 11:35 AM

If I were in your situation - a business call - I would nod and move on with my work.

If I were at a bar with a bunch of half-drunken college students, I would voice my opposing viewpoint.

There is a time and place for everything.

levite · 08-04-2009, 11:39 AM

I get that sometimes, too, during my various internships as a rabbi. People make political comments, and I have to question whether I should admit my disagreement, or just decline to comment. I think ultimately, if it's during the course of a professional exchange, we're better suited to avoid discussing politics: it's just a quagmire, and the best thing to do is avoid it, and get out quick.

mixedmedia · 08-04-2009, 11:49 AM

Normally I will ignore comments made while at work (or otherwise if I don't feel like the hassle). I won't smile or agree. I'll basically pretend I didn't hear it - change the subject, excuse myself and walk away. If someone pushes to find out where I stand, I am more than happy to oblige in most circumstances. As time goes on, within a bunch of people I know to various degrees (such as at work), I will usually pick up on who it is safe to 'debate' with and who isn't - which means people who are informed and not hyperbolic.

LordEden · 08-04-2009, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

If you're doing business, you should politely decline to comment.

I always wondered if this is worse than just agreeing. Declining to comment always got me in trouble because then they know you don't agree with them.

Plan9 · 08-04-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordEden

I always wondered if this is worse than just agreeing. Declining to comment always got me in trouble because then they know you don't agree with them.

BFD. Work is work. Are you suggesting that you should lie to them and/or acquiesce to their flavor of reality? You don't have to agree with anybody's personal voodoo, you just have to avoid verbalizing how much of a dumbass you think they are for worshiping undead cosmic nomad superheroes.

KellyC · 08-04-2009, 12:43 PM

+1 for depends on the situation and who I'm talking to. There's no secret among my friends about my disdain for religion and liberal beliefs. But when I'm at work, I keep all of that to myself. The most I told my bosses was that I was late because some Mormon missionaries wanted to talk with me. Since they were polite I gave them a few minutes of my time. They chuckled in amusement and *we all* left it at that.

uncle phil · 08-04-2009, 12:43 PM

as long as the conversation doesn't involve swift-boaters, vietnam, or iraq, i can usually manage to keep my mouth closed; but i don't work anymore, so i really don't give a shit...

cromp's on the right track...

LordEden · 08-04-2009, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

BFD. Work is work. Are you suggesting that you should lie to them and/or acquiesce to their flavor of reality? You don't have to agree with anybody's personal voodoo, you just have to avoid verbalizing how much of a dumbass you think they are for worshiping undead cosmic nomad superheroes.

I've just always found an "uh-huh" or changing the subject to be better than "declining to comment". I used that line a few times when hit with the ol', "so where do you go to church" line. They are out of line, but I can get in trouble here. Saying "I don't talk about religion at work" gets me the "well, why not?" or they run out of the office with wild stories about how I hump goats on an alter to dedicated to Ozzy Osbourn while sucking the blood of virgins. I'd rather throw half-ass statement agreeing with them and keep my job, than be black-balled because people think I don't believe in their great fuzzy-wuzzy.

Plan9 · 08-04-2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uncle phil

but i don't work anymore, so i really don't give a shit...

Righteous.

Strange Famous · 08-04-2009, 12:53 PM

In 2004 eI had to visit an American client, right around election time.

I made some offhand comment cos I knew she was a yank to the effect of "looks like Bush is going to win again"

I expected her to reply "Christ, what a bastard" but instead she said "yeah, I hope so"

I just sort of grunted.

I dont think it would have been appropriate at all to give any political views really in a customer client relationship. I remember being shocked, I guess it was easy to forget because Bush was so unpopular in Europe, he still had a support base in the US

mixedmedia · 08-04-2009, 01:50 PM

I can't remember the last time I was asked, but if someone were to ask me 'where do you go to church?' I would reply simply with, 'I don't go to church.' I certainly wouldn't lie about it.

Xavion · 08-04-2009, 02:18 PM

I agree with a lot of you guys...more often than not it isn't worth it to try to argue against someone else's beliefs, especially where politics or religion are concerned; especially in any kind of professional setting. I live in NC where there are bible-thumpers aplenty, and i've hard to learn the hard way thats it's not a good idea to disclose too much info about your personal life or your personal convictions to coworkers. Someday I hope to live in a world where most people can happily agree-to-disagree.

Redjake · 08-04-2009, 03:03 PM

I just stare at the person like they never said anything because it's pointless to debate it. beliefs are beliefs and a short debate isn't going to sway anyone's opinion. not even worth it. at work, I stay away from those conversations like the plague.

Troublebot · 08-05-2009, 08:47 AM

I usually try and keep my mouth shut. I know for a fact that my politics/religious views differ sharply form the people I share an office with. The only time I spoke up was the day after the November election. One of my co-workers joked that we should start betting on when Obama would be assassinated. Before I knew it I was right in front of him. Told him I'd spent eight years putting up with W and never once mentioned assassination... he'd lasted about eight minutes. He apologized with a very red face.

Xerxys · 08-05-2009, 10:45 AM

While I'm at work? Well, I'm a staunch catholic who still believes in stoning non believers. Everywhere else ... I'm really agnostic and don't care much about any of your beliefs.

People who claim to care do more hurt than good.

mixedmedia · 08-05-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troublebot

I usually try and keep my mouth shut. I know for a fact that my politics/religious views differ sharply form the people I share an office with. The only time I spoke up was the day after the November election. One of my co-workers joked that we should start betting on when Obama would be assassinated. Before I knew it I was right in front of him. Told him I'd spent eight years putting up with W and never once mentioned assassination... he'd lasted about eight minutes. He apologized with a very red face.

The day after the Obama election, one of my co-workers was receiving text messages of 'black jokes' from a friend of hers (ex. cases of fried chicken and watermelon were being flown to the White House using Air Force One). This was less than a week after company 'sensitivity training,' lol.

More than offended at the jokes I was dismayed to find that she thought it was ok to share them with me. I guess she figured because I am white, then naturally I'd be into it. *nudge, nudge, wink, wink*

It also floored me to find that people are still laughing at fried chicken and watermelon jokes. I mean, come on! I've been hearing those since I was knee high to a grasshopper, as they say.

Plan9 · 08-05-2009, 11:03 AM

Ugh, white people are fucking stupid.

thespian86 · 08-05-2009, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

The day after the Obama election, one of my co-workers was receiving text messages of 'black jokes' from a friend of hers (ex. cases of fried chicken and watermelon were being flown to the White House using Air Force One). This was less than a week after company 'sensitivity training,' lol.

More than offended at the jokes I was dismayed to find that she thought it was ok to share them with me. I guess she figured because I am white, then naturally I'd be into it. *nudge, nudge, wink, wink*

It also floored me to find that people are still laughing at fried chicken and watermelon jokes. I mean, come on! I've been hearing those since I was knee high to a grasshopper, as they say.

Two things: Knee high to a grasshopper. Do THEY really say that? I've never overheard them or been privy to a conversation where they've dropped that phrase.

Also; I make race related jokes all the time but ironically. I don't actually fear mexicans and the underclass but making that statement can be comical depending on the audience and the timing. I think that race, as a subject of comedy, is perfectly acceptable. The fried chicken/watermellon is certainly a little tired but you get the gist of it. Plus I'm jewish; you owe us.

mixedmedia · 08-05-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thespian86

Two things: Knee high to a grasshopper. Do THEY really say that? I've never overheard them or been privy to a conversation where they've dropped that phrase.

Also; I make race related jokes all the time but ironically. I don't actually fear mexicans and the underclass but making that statement can be comical depending on the audience and the timing. I think that race, as a subject of comedy, is perfectly acceptable. The fried chicken/watermellon is certainly a little tired but you get the gist of it. Plus I'm jewish; you owe us.

dude, I'm having a hard time following you.

what the hell are you talking about?

Tully Mars · 08-05-2009, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Ugh, white people are fucking stupid.

Just take the word "white" out and I think you're onto something.

LordEden · 08-05-2009, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thespian86

Two things: Knee high to a grasshopper. Do THEY really say that? I've never overheard them or been privy to a conversation where they've dropped that phrase.

It is a great southern phrase, I love MM more now because she said it.

+1 to MM.

****

I can't get away from racist jokes, my parents are wonderful and caring people, but they were raised not to like black people. I hear the word "Coon" alot.

I hear them at my local bars all the time, it's amazing how frank people can be and think they should be able to get away with it. If one of the older guys comes up to me and says, "You wanna hear a joke"; 9/10 it will be a black joke about Obama. I was told in all seriousness that I should never mention that I voted for him when I'm there.

It makes me a very sad panda.

Vigilante · 08-05-2009, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Ugh, white people are fucking stupid.

LOL. I've been singing "kill all the white people" from SNL w/ Eddie Murphy all week.

Punk.of.Ages · 08-05-2009, 01:50 PM

Usually, even in business, I will call out any situation to debate politics or religion. If you bring it up, I'm ready to talk.

...but, now I'm in sales. I made that mistake once and only once. I was talking to a man that was very interested in purchasing what I had to offer. A lay down, as we call them. Toward the end of the conversation he was talking about all the things he does for his church and how God gets him through life and such. He asked me, "Are you a christian?" I replied, "No. I'm agnostic.", being honest. He said, "Well, you just don't what to believe in, do you?" I proceeded to tell him the gist of why I am agnostic, I'm sure, at least slightly offending his views.

To the point, I lost a very easy sale. Now, when presented with the same situation, I say, "Absolutely. Sundays are the only day I take off. I don't ever miss church."

Yeah, it's bullshit, but that's how I make a living.

sanity_advocate · 08-05-2009, 03:04 PM

One can divert the topic to another which neither confirms, denies, or acquiesces. If they press, you tell them that whether you agree or not, you never talk politics or religion on the job because they are not topics to be chatted about lightly, and right now your concentration is necessarily elsewhere.

People do not need to misrepresent or be false to themselves for the sake of others, there are almost always ways to steer conversation away... and if they really press, perhaps they need a dose of reality that you can't corner someone about their beliefs.

08-04-2009, 11:22 AM	#2 (permalink)
CinnamonGirl She's Actual Size Location: Central Republic of Where-in-the-Hell	I'm one of the most non-confrontational people ever, so I'll let a lot of things slide. I live in Southwest Ohio, and the majority of political & religious views here really clash with mine. Normally, I just smile and nod, and get on with what I'm doing. __________________ "...for though she was ordinary, she possessed health, wit, courage, charm, and cheerfulness. But because she was not beautiful, no one ever seemed to notice these other qualities, which is so often the way of the world." "Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?"

08-04-2009, 11:27 AM	#3 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	Letting clients or employees know your religious or political beliefs can be dangerous. I keep them to myself at work unless I'm agreeing with the person I'm talking to. __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

08-04-2009, 11:28 AM	#4 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	If you're doing business, you should politely decline to comment. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

08-04-2009, 11:33 AM	#5 (permalink)
Vigilante Broken Arrow Location: US	I'm the same way, Eden. It depends alot on the situation. I am confrontational when the floor is open. I have no problem picking apart people's fragile mythology when they try to push their shit on me. However in a professional environment I almost always change the subject or say "uh huh" and go on with whatever I'm doing. __________________ We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -Winston Churchill

08-04-2009, 11:35 AM	#6 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	If I were in your situation - a business call - I would nod and move on with my work. If I were at a bar with a bunch of half-drunken college students, I would voice my opposing viewpoint. There is a time and place for everything. __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

08-04-2009, 11:39 AM	#7 (permalink)
levite Minion of Joss Location: The Windy City	I get that sometimes, too, during my various internships as a rabbi. People make political comments, and I have to question whether I should admit my disagreement, or just decline to comment. I think ultimately, if it's during the course of a professional exchange, we're better suited to avoid discussing politics: it's just a quagmire, and the best thing to do is avoid it, and get out quick. __________________ Dull sublunary lovers love, Whose soul is sense, cannot admit Absence, because it doth remove That thing which elemented it. (From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

08-04-2009, 11:49 AM	#8 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Normally I will ignore comments made while at work (or otherwise if I don't feel like the hassle). I won't smile or agree. I'll basically pretend I didn't hear it - change the subject, excuse myself and walk away. If someone pushes to find out where I stand, I am more than happy to oblige in most circumstances. As time goes on, within a bunch of people I know to various degrees (such as at work), I will usually pick up on who it is safe to 'debate' with and who isn't - which means people who are informed and not hyperbolic. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

08-04-2009, 12:43 PM	#11 (permalink)
KellyC Comment or else!! Location: Home sweet home	+1 for depends on the situation and who I'm talking to. There's no secret among my friends about my disdain for religion and liberal beliefs. But when I'm at work, I keep all of that to myself. The most I told my bosses was that I was late because some Mormon missionaries wanted to talk with me. Since they were polite I gave them a few minutes of my time. They chuckled in amusement and we all left it at that. __________________ Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe? Me: Shit happens.

08-04-2009, 12:43 PM	#12 (permalink)
uncle phil comfortably numb... Super Moderator Location: upstate	as long as the conversation doesn't involve swift-boaters, vietnam, or iraq, i can usually manage to keep my mouth closed; but i don't work anymore, so i really don't give a shit... cromp's on the right track... __________________ "We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done." - Robert S. McNamara ----------------------------------------- "We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches... We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles." - Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message" ----------------------------------------- never wrestle with a pig. you both get dirty; the pig likes it.

08-04-2009, 12:53 PM	#15 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	In 2004 eI had to visit an American client, right around election time. I made some offhand comment cos I knew she was a yank to the effect of "looks like Bush is going to win again" I expected her to reply "Christ, what a bastard" but instead she said "yeah, I hope so" I just sort of grunted. I dont think it would have been appropriate at all to give any political views really in a customer client relationship. I remember being shocked, I guess it was easy to forget because Bush was so unpopular in Europe, he still had a support base in the US __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

08-04-2009, 01:50 PM	#16 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	I can't remember the last time I was asked, but if someone were to ask me 'where do you go to church?' I would reply simply with, 'I don't go to church.' I certainly wouldn't lie about it. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

08-04-2009, 02:18 PM	#17 (permalink)
Xavion Upright Location: Charlotte, NC	I agree with a lot of you guys...more often than not it isn't worth it to try to argue against someone else's beliefs, especially where politics or religion are concerned; especially in any kind of professional setting. I live in NC where there are bible-thumpers aplenty, and i've hard to learn the hard way thats it's not a good idea to disclose too much info about your personal life or your personal convictions to coworkers. Someday I hope to live in a world where most people can happily agree-to-disagree. __________________ "I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer!"

08-04-2009, 03:03 PM	#18 (permalink)
Redjake I'm a family man - I run a family business. Location: Wilson, NC	I just stare at the person like they never said anything because it's pointless to debate it. beliefs are beliefs and a short debate isn't going to sway anyone's opinion. not even worth it. at work, I stay away from those conversations like the plague.

08-05-2009, 08:47 AM	#19 (permalink)
Troublebot Intently Rocking Location: Davey's	I usually try and keep my mouth shut. I know for a fact that my politics/religious views differ sharply form the people I share an office with. The only time I spoke up was the day after the November election. One of my co-workers joked that we should start betting on when Obama would be assassinated. Before I knew it I was right in front of him. Told him I'd spent eight years putting up with W and never once mentioned assassination... he'd lasted about eight minutes. He apologized with a very red face. __________________ Howard Moon: The wind is my only friend. Wind: [whistling] I hate you.

08-05-2009, 10:45 AM	#20 (permalink)
Xerxys Junkie Location: My head.	While I'm at work? Well, I'm a staunch catholic who still believes in stoning non believers. Everywhere else ... I'm really agnostic and don't care much about any of your beliefs. People who claim to care do more hurt than good.

08-05-2009, 11:03 AM	#22 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Ugh, white people are fucking stupid. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

08-05-2009, 01:50 PM	#28 (permalink)
Punk.of.Ages Forming Location: ....a state of pure inebriation.	Usually, even in business, I will call out any situation to debate politics or religion. If you bring it up, I'm ready to talk. ...but, now I'm in sales. I made that mistake once and only once. I was talking to a man that was very interested in purchasing what I had to offer. A lay down, as we call them. Toward the end of the conversation he was talking about all the things he does for his church and how God gets him through life and such. He asked me, "Are you a christian?" I replied, "No. I'm agnostic.", being honest. He said, "Well, you just don't what to believe in, do you?" I proceeded to tell him the gist of why I am agnostic, I'm sure, at least slightly offending his views. To the point, I lost a very easy sale. Now, when presented with the same situation, I say, "Absolutely. Sundays are the only day I take off. I don't ever miss church." Yeah, it's bullshit, but that's how I make a living. __________________ "The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager "Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

08-05-2009, 03:04 PM	#29 (permalink)
sanity_advocate Upright	One can divert the topic to another which neither confirms, denies, or acquiesces. If they press, you tell them that whether you agree or not, you never talk politics or religion on the job because they are not topics to be chatted about lightly, and right now your concentration is necessarily elsewhere. People do not need to misrepresent or be false to themselves for the sake of others, there are almost always ways to steer conversation away... and if they really press, perhaps they need a dose of reality that you can't corner someone about their beliefs. __________________ Fixing the social psychology of entitlement and self-righteousness in two easy steps: 1. Always show everyone kindness and respect. 2. Verbally punish the stupid and inconsiderate immediately, harshly, and with righteous indignation. Never acquiesce. .: The mouthpiece of sanity :.